Grrl Power

[Metahuman1]

I like the second one better myself, though I can already hear people complaining ENDLESSLY that it was Deus Ex Machina and it makes Sydney a Mary Sue.

[Traab]

I like the second one better myself, though I can already hear people complaining ENDLESSLY that it was Deus Ex Machina and it makes Sydney a Mary Sue.

Too be fair, unless the author establishes some sort of limit to what she can do, the cries of mary sue are fairly justified. She has the genre savvy to break down half the problems they have faced so far, her downsides and faults are generally played off as amusing instead of actual issues, and so far defensively at least, she is utterly unbeatable. We have yet to see anyone bust that shield of hers. She isnt raw sue by any means, but she has a lot of the warning signs. The fact that she has at least two other unknown abilities and already has more power than 3/4 of the cast doesnt exactly help. Neither does the fact that she can apparently improve those skills, even though how isnt well known yet. Like I said, the best way for him to avoid the sue trap would be to quickly establish some actual weaknesses beyond "I cant use ALL of my game breaking powers at the same time"

[Metahuman1]

Or to start sticking her in positions were not being able to use all her powers at once actually ends up mattering to the tune of a lost fight or failed mission or some such. With all the consequences that go with.

Or, just make her fight an enemy that happens to be really good at Xanatos Gambit.

[Traab]

Or to start sticking her in positions were not being able to use all her powers at once actually ends up mattering to the tune of a lost fight or failed mission or some such. With all the consequences that go with.

Or, just make her fight an enemy that happens to be really good at Xanatos Gambit.

Exactly, there are plenty of things he CAN do to make her seem less like a sue, he just has to actually do them first.

[Rakaydos]

Or to start sticking her in positions were not being able to use all her powers at once actually ends up mattering to the tune of a lost fight or failed mission or some such. With all the consequences that go with.

Or, just make her fight an enemy that happens to be really good at Xanatos Gambit.

Villian splash page- "A new player... We can use this."

[Calemyr]

Villian splash page- "A new player... We can use this."

Oh, that gives me an amusing idea. A chess-focused villain who consistently refers to Sydney as "my queen". Everyone assumes he beleives she's destined to be either his leader or his mate, when what he really means is "just imagine the kind of damage I could do by manipulating you...". Sydney's hyperactivity, genre savvy, and talent for lateral thinking would actually make her quite predictable to the right sort of mind, she could easily be a villain's ultimate weapon without even realizing it.

[Traab]

Oh, I just wanted to add something to my list of reasons why sydney might be considered a sue. I mentioned the so far limitless power of her shield, but there is also her flight capability. She was able to effortlessly match speed with maxima without even noticing she was doing it. (Not surprising, inside a shield she doesnt feel the wind moving past her) They were going 400 mph, and the only reason they STOPPED was because they had reached the site. There is no reason to believe she can "only" fly that fast. So she has a defense that so far is unbreakable, and a travel option with no currently known upper limit. Not only that, but so far we havent found any limit on how long she can use her abilities for. Do those orbs have a charge? Or are they totally unlimited in their ability to channel their powers? Could sydney technically keep a shield up for years if she could concentrate that long? Could she focus her ppo beam attack till it tunnels through the earth and out the other side days later? Or will she find the orbs losing power if she uses them too often in a single confrontation?

If this was a normal book instead of a twice a week comic update, this wouldnt be a problem really. This is still fairly early on in the story, so there is plenty of time to establish things like her limits and weaknesses. But because of how long it takes for the comic to move on, it kind of magnifies the effect of her powers and her character and leaves us with that impression of her sue status.

[Lost Demiurge]

::Shrugs:: I really don't see why people yell about Sydney being overpowered. This is a high-powered superheroes setting. Sure, there's lesser powered people around, but that's fine. Not everyone's supposed to be equal.

It'd be different if their only purpose was to be worfed, but the low-powered ones have gotten some good development and play, too, so I'm happy there.

It's like yelling that superman is HAX. Duh! Of course he's HAX, his best stories accept that, shrug, and tell a good tale anyway. You don't read a superman book expecting a batman fight or situation, and vice-versa.

Stop confusing High-powered characters with Sues, you'll only make yourself unhappy...

[Traab]

::Shrugs:: I really don't see why people yell about Sydney being overpowered. This is a high-powered superheroes setting. Sure, there's lesser powered people around, but that's fine. Not everyone's supposed to be equal.

It'd be different if their only purpose was to be worfed, but the low-powered ones have gotten some good development and play, too, so I'm happy there.

It's like yelling that superman is HAX. Duh! Of course he's HAX, his best stories accept that, shrug, and tell a good tale anyway. You don't read a superman book expecting a batman fight or situation, and vice-versa.

Stop confusing High-powered characters with Sues, you'll only make yourself unhappy...

Its not just the high power, like I said, she isnt raw sue, but she does have several of the signs. The problem is the story takes so long to move forward, due to it being updated twice a month, that its hard to remember this is literally her very first day on the job, and she hasnt even had the chance to START training her skills beyond a few minor tests. But because of how long it takes the story to move along, its taking a long time to establish that yeah, she will have limits, yeah she will stumble and fall from time to time, and no she isnt some mary sue that its hard to avoid coming to that conclusion.

One of the other sue signs is that, despite her total lack of training, her lack of experience, her lack of knowledge, she has still been the one to solve numerous problems during this major battle. She figured out the periwinkle butt sniffers abilities when all of arclight wasnt able to pick up on it, she was able to use her abilities on several occasions to protect her team mates, like gigawatt when breakpoint was blasting her. It took me a couple tries to figure out why she was saying denied in that one panel, but then I saw she was blocking another speed bump being hurled at an unprotected and vulnerable gigawatt. She has been able to use her powers to backup anvil to land that really nice missile drop kick on vehemence, tripped him up, blocked his vision to give maxima an opening, she took out 2 of the bad guys solo, gets at least an assist credit on death tolls for figuring out his weaknesses, and has saved the life of at least one or two of her team so far. All this without any training at all, and only the most bare bones knowledge of what her powers even are. Now, the saving grace here is that she isnt just stomping through things. She is more capable than she should be, but not excessively so. But it is still a warning sign.

Once again, I dont think she is a mary sue, I just think there is enough smoke for people to wonder about and there hasnt been enough storyline released yet to say one way or the other.

[lord_khaine]

I can seriously not see where any of the sue talk as comming from at all, Of course Sydney is in a better position to observe the fight though the safety of her shield, while the rest of Archon is busy battling the enemy, and one of her main strenght has rather early been that she is pretty genre savvy, giving her the best chance to figure out For Whom the Death Toll's power.

And yes she has been rather useful, saving a few people and making things difficult for the enemy, but she isnt fighting in the front rank or even second rank, she is running inteference and mainly acting as a support for the team, thats about as un-suelike as it gets.

[Douglas]

Sydney has a natural advantage in figuring out anything where "punch it harder" isn't the answer - she's coming from a background of reading tons and tons of superhero comics, where strange powers with loopholes and weaknesses are commonplace. The rest of the team has experience with their own and each others' personal superpowers, but likely haven't really encountered and (especially) fought more than a really small number of other supers before this, so most of their background and experience is with conventional opposition.

[BannedInSchool]

She also hasn't quite saved the Enterprise yet. FWtDT, as it turns out, wasn't the big threat. Now even if she's kinda sorta Mary Sue-ish, she's still not going to be perfect and loved by everybody, and a story in which Sydney Scoville is the most nearly omnipotent being on the planet would be...something.

[Traab]

She also hasn't quite saved the Enterprise yet. FWtDT, as it turns out, wasn't the big threat. Now even if she's kinda sorta Mary Sue-ish, she's still not going to be perfect and loved by everybody, and a story in which Sydney Scoville is the most nearly omnipotent being on the planet would be...something.

Too be fair, I dont think there is anyone that doesnt like sydney atm. Even Vehemence seemed to like her. Oh sure NOW he might be a bit peeved, but since he has his limb back I dont think he will hold a grudge. She may annoy the team from time to time, but its more an amused exasperation than dislike. As for nearly omnipotent, well.... lets just wait to see what limits her power has. Heck, even the pseudopod thing where she mentions lifting her car with it, we dont know if thats her limit, or if its just the heaviest thing she tried to pick up in the very brief time she had since getting these abilities to try them out. She DID deflect that thrown speed bump chunk of concrete which was hurled pretty damn hard. Speaking of which, it looks like sonic attacks or whatever that break point thing was, doesnt effect her control of or damage the pseudopod itself. That was some very pinpoint accuracy there, like using a whip to deflect an arrow.

Im just playing devils advocate here. I dont think she is a mary sue either, but I can sorta see where those who do think that are coming from.

*EDIT* I just noticed but here Sydney slams a third bad guy out of the fight, taking down a "nega energy user" (whatever the heck that is) Lee press on claws and the human torch ripoff. Admittedly all of them are low end guys, heck fire boy didnt even get a NAME and was taken out in the background of a single panel. Speaking of claw boy, I hope he lived. I mean, she made him stab himself in the neck/collarbone/shoulder area with 4 fairly deep punctures.

[Frozen_Feet]

Weird thought of the day: V's tattoos have become the same color as Maxima's skin.

Could it be he's regenerating / evolving towards being made of the same stuff as her?

[Dusk Eclipse]

Perhaps Maxima is also a Vehemic energy user and never noticed? Considering she was deployed for (apparently) a long time in an active warzone, she could have absorbed so much energy that she completely transformed?

[Traab]

Perhaps Maxima is also a Vehemic energy user and never noticed? Considering she was deployed for (apparently) a long time in an active warzone, she could have absorbed so much energy that she completely transformed?

We saw a flashback of her discovering a power blast ability in a residential neighborhood. She was already solid gold then. Plus, the author seems to be making a solid point about her powers being setup differently than most. Its an interesting idea, but im thinking probably not.

*EDIT* Here it is

[AvatarVecna]

Mary Sue Analysis

Spoiler: Orb Powers and Limits

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Spoiler: Force Field Orb

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Powers

Forms a bubble of total protection for Sydney; grows to include nearby people under certain circumstances (such as at the press conference and against Negative Energy Guy).

This shield has protected Sydney from just about everything that's come her way: an attack from Vehemence at low power levels, a Maxima blast hitting dead on, the fallout of Maxima's Big Blast, another Maxima blast at point-blank range, the potential consequences of super-fast travel (mentioned in the Flight Orb section), Harem's teleporting, etc.

Despite Sydney's argument to the contrary, her force field apparently protects her from light-based attacks. Incidentally, in that same comic, Maxima plugs her ears against the array of flash-bang grenades; Sydney does not.

Limits

Sydney must be inside the shield; furthermore, the shield is air proof, so it can't be kept up indefinitely (and making it bigger or smaller raises puzzling questions). Other than that, nothing: again, the shield has not yet taken any hit that caused it to fracture or dissolve in anyway. Note: the only time Vehemence has connected with Sydney's shield was at the very beginning of his part of the fight; it's possible that, were he to connect now, he could crack the shield, or maybe even break it. Of course, if it's just as impregnable now as it was then, that would be a major Sign of Sue-dom...at least, more of a sign than the shield is already.

Spoiler: Lighthook Orb

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Powers

Forms a tentacle of what is apparently solid energy. It appears to be controlled by thought, with the only limit on complexity being the limit of the user's imagination (Sydney made a tumbleweed with it).

Limits

Other than the fact that Sydney can only make one tentacle at a time so far, it appears to have limits to how much force it can apply to something, as we can see in the fight with Vehemence: Sydney trips up V in comic #252, indicating that his basic strength at the time wasn't enough to overcome the lighthook's force output. However, in the very next comic, he hurls Anvil so hard that in the comic after that (after several lines of dialogue), she's still got about 10 seconds left before she lands, so he's got to be pretty strong. Afterwards, he lifts his foot up from under the foot of a guy who weighs as much as a space station, making him ridiculously strong.

Incidentally, given how long the dialogue is, that would put Anvil at roughly the top of the "arc" of that throw, meaning she was about half a km up in the air at that point. It is at that same point that Sydney grabs her with the Lighthook and sends her hurtling Earthwards, smashing into Vehemence hard enough to seriously hurt him; while Anvil's power probably explains the severe damage done to V by the attack, the timing indicates that Sydney's Lighthook throwing arm is seriously strong.

Spoiler: Comm Orb

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Powers

The orb produces illusory versions of Sydney. Sydney can use the orb or the illusory duplicates as the foci for some clairvoyance/clairaudience powers; furthermore, her senses (or at least her vision) are enhanced while using the orb in that way; the only known benefit is that it allowed Sydney to see through the supposedly impregnable Succubus illusion.

This is the only orb that has been upgraded yet, although the effect of the upgrade is still unknown.

Limits

The illusion power can't create illusions of anything other than Sydney (as of yet). Furthermore, the truesight ability of the orb only penetrates illusions; physical barriers (even things like rubber masks and makeup) can still conceal someone from the orb's wielder (to the extent that they normally do, anyway).

Spoiler: Flight Orb

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Powers

Flight, up to at least 400 mph.

Limits

Top speed is unknown; top acceleration (both positive and negative) is also unknown; maneuverability is also unknown. It's also not clear if the orb on its own protects the user from the various consequences of high speed travel (air resistance, bugs in your face, sonic boom right next to mortal eardrums, forces of acceleration, etc.), since the only time we've seen her get fast enough that those things would come into play, she also had her force field up.

Spoiler: Unknown Orbs I and II

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Nothing is known as of yet; these could make for good plot hooks and/or hacky Dues ex Machinas, depending on if and how they're introduced.

Spoiler: Orb Management

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Sydney can only use up to two orbs at a time (at this point in the comic). Sydney is aware of this limitation, as is the rest of the team. Depending on the orbs used in conjunction, this could serve to severely limit Sydney's ability to contribute to future fights.

Furthermore, there is some sort of upgrade/level up aspect to the orbs; she can either spend points to gain new abilities or to advance existing ones. Limitations to this aspect of orb management:

1) Nobody knows how Sydney can gain upgrade points; given that she gained the last one while protecting people from the fall-out of Maxima's Big Bang attack, a possibility is that the orbs grow in power the more their user is in danger, in order to increase the survivability of the user. It's also possible that it's a literal level-up system, and Sydney just gained enough RP XP from protecting everyone that she gained a level. Again, nobody knows how to level Sydney up.

2) None of the upgrades or new powers are labeled, so nobody has any idea what any of them do. Hence, every spent point is a lottery roll: did Sydney choose wisely, or did Fickle Fate screw her over?

3) The upgrading process takes at least a little bit of time and focus, and Sydney doesn't appear to be able to use the orbs when they're trying to be upgraded. If someone were to catch onto this, and knew how to level Halo up, they might be able to get her to level up, forcing her to release her powers (again, if the orbs leveling up is intended to protect the wielder, it's unlikely they'll power down to do so when she's being fired upon).

4) There is no known way to "retrain" points, whether they were assigned when she found the orbs or when she leveled up. That's not to say that there's no way to retrain, only that if such a method exists, nobody knows how to do it yet.

Conclusion

Orb Management presents many interesting opportunities for Halo, while also introducing most of her power's limitations. Of course, when your powers are mostly limited by "I don't know what they do yet", overcoming those limits is fairly easy for the storyteller. All in all, the limitations posed by Orb Management make the powers less of a Sign of Sue-dom, although it doesn't mitigate some of her abilities: the sheer power Sydney has access to, as well as her general "awesomeness" personality, it's easy to see why some people are accusing her of Sue-dom. There's plenty

Spoiler: Offense During Fight

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According to Maxima, there were "nearly 30" villains involved in this fight. However, the post-script from the author in comic #228 indicates they intended to increase Maxima's estimate from 30 to 40, but didn't have everyone designed at the time.

Knockouts by Character

Anvil: Nose Boop Guy; Engine Block Guy; Another Guy (unseen)²

Syndey: Negative Energy Guy; Lee Press On Nails; Flame Hair Guy; Periwinkle Buttsniffer⁸

Math: Wife Beater Guy; Positive Energy Guy¹; Laser Eyes Guy

Maxima: Rainbow Arms Guy; Pavement Eater; Boilerplate⁵

Heatwave: Corn Rows Guy³

Dabbler: Heavenly Sword; Zebra Hairdresser Guy; Glowbug; Jabberwokky⁶

Harem: Mach the Knife; Atomic Bombshell⁷;

Hiro: Breakpoint; Surfer Hulk; Another Guy III (Concretia, maybe?)

Mr. Amorphous: Foreign Guy

Jiggawatt: Purple Fist; Storm Legs Guy; Budget Vehemence; Another Guy II (Hex, perhaps?)⁴

Vehemence: Opal; Vekter

¹: In comic #212, Math claims to have taken out four. Assuming he's counting Concretia, that means he must have "taken down" three others. The only possible explanation is that he's also counting the guy in comic #210 who's only on-screen presence is an arm and a leg, with golden-glowing brass knuckles swinging and missing as he's hit by Laser Eyes Guy's blast.

²: In comic #212, Anvil claims to have taken down three. Assuming she's counting the guy she nose-booped and the guy she put to sleep, that leaves one more knock out unaccounted for.

³: Heatwave is heating two people up; one shows up later, and the other never does. Furthermore, the one that doesn't reappear claims to be close to passing out from the heat...right before Heatwave accidentally turns up the heat. I'm gonna say she took him out.

⁴: Gonna go out on a limb here and say that Jiggawatt was firing at someone instead of just aiming for the building.

⁵: Author named him in the post-script in comic #231.

⁶: Dabbler hypnotized Jabberwokky and made her do stuff that got her taken out; I'll give that one to Dabbler.

⁷: Blink and you'll miss it: in the 6th panel of comic #241, Harem attaches a knock-out bracelet to A.B., so I'm giving her the take-down (even though Anvil probably earned it).

⁸: I'm giving that one to Sydney because they would've wasted all their time fruitless trying to hammer him down slowly without her figuring out his power and his limits.

Conclusions

At the final count, there are 30 on-screen takedowns, making 31 villains (including Vehemence himself), which is in line with the Canon estimate, rather than the author's original intended estimate. Note that this assumes that Concretia was taken out by Hiro after she took on a more crystalline form, and that Jiggawatt's random blast took out Hex; if these aren't correct, we can increase the total villain count to 33, which still falls close enough the Canon estimate (and still well within the original intended estimate), so that's fine.

Since Maxima spent most of her time coordinating, and Math and Dabbler were jerking around half the time, we'll assume their contribution (which would normally be higher, based on their abilities) is around the same level as the rest of the group, all of whom are close enough to each other's level for government work (heh). Of course, for the majority of the battle, Sydney was on defense, so it would make sense to assume she would contribute less than she otherwise would be expected to based on her power level.

Interestingly enough, several characters could be argued to have taken down four, but only definitely took down three; Math didn't realize Concretia had survived, and never ended up taking down another opponent; Sydney only has four if you count Periwinkle Buttsniffer, which you might not; technically speaking, Vekter took down Jabberwokky, not Dabbler; as for Jiggawatt, that blast very well could've missed. In fact, we see a body close to the blast sight (I assumed at the time that the blast hit Hex, but it might've hit that dude instead, or even no one at all). Maxima also definitely took down three, as did Hiro, but they don't have a fourth possible kill.

All in all, Sydney did pretty average during this fight compared to the rest of the team, which is about what I would expect, given her power level. However, she also spends a decent amount of time on the defensive, which should've cut her back at least a bit. I won't say this a total Sign of Sue-dom, but it's in the right vicinity.

Spoiler: Defense During Fight

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This is an easy one: Sydney's defenses are top notch during this fight at almost all points (note: this is intentional in-comic; she was ordered by Maxima to keep her shield up as long as possible). The only point in the entire battle where she was legitimately vulnerable is when the Negative Energy Guy got a swipe at her from behind and knocked her down. Note that she was not vulnerable when her glasses fell off; the author made sure to subvert that particular trop, taking away the only other possible moment of vulnerability in this fight.

While I'm tempted to just say this was a foregone conclusion given how powerful Sydney's shield is, the fact that her shield is good enough to completely protect her from everything in this fight is probably enough on it's own to be a Sign of Sue-dom.

Spoiler: Unrelated Notes

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Early in the fight, Vehemence poked Dabbler's super-sword with a twig, and looked very nervous about doing so, considering she'd just announced it to be booby-trapped.

[lord_khaine]

Lighthook Orb
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Powers

Forms a tentacle of what is apparently solid energy. It appears to be controlled by thought, with the only limit on complexity being the limit of the user's imagination (Sydney made a tumbleweed with it).

Limits

Other than the fact that Sydney can only make one tentacle at a time so far, it appears to have limits to how much force it can apply to something, as we can see in the fight with Vehemence: Sydney trips up V in comic #252, indicating that his basic strength at the time wasn't enough to overcome the lighthook's force output. However, in the very next comic, he hurls Anvil so hard that in the comic after that (after several lines of dialogue), she's still got about 10 seconds left before she lands, so he's got to be pretty strong. Afterwards, he lifts his foot up from under the foot of a guy who weighs as much as a space station, making him ridiculously strong.

Incidentally, given how long the dialogue is, that would put Anvil at roughly the top of the "arc" of that throw, meaning she was about half a km up in the air at that point. It is at that same point that Sydney grabs her with the Lighthook and sends her hurtling Earthwards, smashing into Vehemence hard enough to seriously hurt him; while Anvil's power probably explains the severe damage done to V by the attack, the timing indicates that Sydney's Lighthook throwing arm is seriously strong.

Very nice analysis of the orbs in general, i will just add that according to the bio her tentacle has a strenght rating of (3), making it as strong as an unpowered Anvil or Mr Amorpheous, though weaker than Hiro/Stalvart (4) or Maxima (5)

As for her shield then it is her main strenght, having a power rating of (5), being only equaled by a maxed out Maxima and only surpassed by Achilles.

So all things considered it seems like Vehemence would be able to crack the shield at this point, he was strong enough to hurt Maxima though her armor before his transformation, and he has only gotten more buff since then.

[Lamech]

Some other thoughts on orbs. Her shield has a weakness that was established on page two. Laser to the face. And a real laser not a generic energy blast like Maxima or budget Halo would cast. Actually any sufficiently powerful source of light.

Also her shield abilities aren't any greater than Portal Girls. Portal Girl can just redirect the attacks where ever she wants. A nice bubble of portals and she'll be just as invincible.

Any sort of force without the equal but opposite reaction can be used to generate infinite speed flight. Now things like air resistance get in the way, but combo it with a shield...

[halfeye]

Mary Sue Analysis

Spoiler: Flight Orb

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Powers

Flight, up to at least 400 mph.

Limits

Top speed is unknown; top acceleration (both positive and negative) is also unknown; maneuverability is also unknown. It's also not clear if the orb on its own protects the user from the various consequences of high speed travel (air resistance, bugs in your face, sonic boom right next to mortal eardrums, forces of acceleration, etc.)

Spoiler

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The sonic boom on mortal eardrums bit doesn't actually happen. In supersonic flight, you are too fast for the sound of your passage to catch up with you. It will probably be noisy, but the boom isn't part of that.

As a former Concorde pilot puts it, "You don't actually hear anything on board. All we see is the pressure wave moving down the aeroplane - it gives an indication on the instruments. And that's what we see around Mach 1. But we don't hear the sonic boom or anything like that. That's rather like the wake of a ship - it's behind us.".[5]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonic_boom

[Traab]

I just wanted to make one point about the targets racked up count and how sydney is hanging in there with an average total that matches the rest more or less. Keep in mind virtually all of team maxima are current or former military operatives, or otherwise highly experienced fighters like Math and Dabbler. Sydney on the other hand has for her previous experience, self defense against a mugger, and a total freakout over a bank robber. She has no actual combat experience with her powers and only limited knowledge of what they can do. Despite the fact that she is an untrained civilian, she is still able to keep pace with well trained professionals.

With the lighthook, a couple points actually. One, we also see later on in the vehemence fight that he is now easily strong enough to yank free of her lighthook. For some odd reason this makes sydney fall, but not move away from her position. So at least we get to see a limit to how much she can handle. Secondly, I made a topic in the grumpy science board about a scene where sydney deflects one of those parking concrete barrier things that breakpoint just hurled at jiggawatt. I made a few assumptions such as presumed speed it would be thrown at, but in general, according to the math, thats actually a pretty solid representation of having the lighthook with a strength stat of 3 or so. Right around the mid range of super strength.

[AvatarVecna]

@lord_khaine

You make a good point about the relative levels of her powers. However, I'd like to make a counterpoint: those numbers only mean anything if their strength...and their weaknesses...are reflected in the comic at some point. Prior to Maxima getting hit by Atomic Bombshell's blast, nothing had ever even phased her in-comic; before that point, her 5 may as well have been a 10 for all it mattered to the comic. And now V has drawn blood at least twice from Maxima, showing the audience that he's reached the edge of her invulnerability, proving the author's stated power limit, and justifying Maxima as a well-rounded character (well, a well-rounded RPG character; whether her actual character is well-rounded is probably even more a point of personal opinion than Sydney's possible Mary Sue-dom).

As you said, Sydney's shield is a 5, putting it on par with Maxima. The important difference, however, is that Sydney's shield hasn't been pushed to its limit. V may have hit Sydney's shield, but it was early on in the fight, and well before he broke Maxima's nose. Until someone manages to so much as crack her shield, the power rating we know via Word of God may as well be eleventy-twelve for all it matters. This is the problem with the shields "limits", or any powers limits in general: if they never come up, they may as well not exist. If they never come up, the story would be exactly the same if those limits didn't exist...and that's one of the major Signs of Sue-dom: namely, that Word of God says the character has limits, but then never drives the power to those limits.

@Lamech

Firstly, Sydney's already been "attacked" with pure light, and it did nothing: by comparing comics #224 and #225, we can assume that both Sydney and Maxima are standing next to Periwinkle Buttsniffer when the array of flash-bang grenades goes off. Sydney is looking directly at the explosion of light and sound when she's standing at ground zero, and her only comment is "Suuuuuper glad I had my shield up." That's not a super-power, or a blast: that's a purely light-based assault, and Sydney's looking directly at it when she's standing right next to it. And she's fine because her shield was up.

Secondly, Opal (Portal Girl) makes roughly oval-shaped portals. It's been suggested that with enough oval-shaped portals, she could make a d20-shaped portal shield like you're suggesting. Unfortunately, due to some facts of three dimensional geometry, that "shield" wouldn't be without some holes near the edges where the oval portals meet, so attacks could slip through that way, whether they were aimed to go through the holes (like arrows, bullets, and super-blasts) or someone just bombed her and assumed the heatwave got into the cracks between the portals. Of course, she could merely use a portal to send those things away if they got in...assuming she was aware of them soon enough to make such a portal, and that there wasn't too many of them. It's also a fact that she can't instantly teleport several people with her portals, or she wouldn't have needed to concentrate for several seconds while trying to 'port the group away from the fight.

Thirdly, my point was that the flight orb might itself protect Sydney from the negative consequences of high-speed flight, but we won't know if it can until a point comes where she's not using the invincible force field orb while flying.

@halfeye

Alright, fair enough, you can't be affected by your own sonic boom. But it's also possible that the air rushing past Sydney could make a significant noise as well; so far, we've seen her going up to 400 mph; terminal velocity for skydivers is roughly 124 mph, and they wear protective gear; Sydney's going roughly 2.5 times that fast, and other than her shield has no protection from the elements. I was just wondering if her flight orb would protect her from the various effects of high-speed travel, or if it leaves her unprotected.

@Traab

I will say this in Sydney's defense: while she may be keeping up with trained professionals, she's doing so in a way that only she could. She beat Negative Energy Guy by subverting a trope, she beat Lee Press On Nails by recognizing a logical flaw in his assumed capabilities, and she beat Periwinkle Buttsniffer by figuring out his powers and their limitations. The only character she took out by just whaling on them with her powers (thus showing off her "combat prowess", such as it is) was a vaguely fire-themed baddie who was so unimportant that he received neither a name nor even a single line of dialogue. To compare, every person Maxima took out went down after getting slapped upside the head by Maxima's pimp hand.

As i mentioned in my response to lord_khaine, it's good to see the limits of the orbs verified in the comic, because it makes those supposed limits more real for the audience.

[Traab]

There was something interesting I just noticed. Earlier on in the comic, maxima and crew are making sure to point out to sydney all the ways that genre convention is wrong, misses the obvious, or fails fridge logic. As an example, collateral damage in fights is rarely mentioned, and no, just because you could regen doesnt mean you will be used like wolverine to absorb bullets, things like that. And yet in this fight, she has used tropes and genre savvy and been right every single time (I think). Of course, they also use tropes and such, "Sydney, you just challenged a guy to a fight after declaring you are unbeatable." "/gasp! A guaranteed loss!" So yeah, that probably means nothing, its just an interesting turn of events. They spent the first half of the day assuring her that things dont work like they do in comics (except when they tease her) and then the second half of the day is a total genre convention fest.

[Rakaydos]

There was something interesting I just noticed. Earlier on in the comic, maxima and crew are making sure to point out to sydney all the ways that genre convention is wrong, misses the obvious, or fails fridge logic. As an example, collateral damage in fights is rarely mentioned, and no, just because you could regen doesnt mean you will be used like wolverine to absorb bullets, things like that. And yet in this fight, she has used tropes and genre savvy and been right every single time (I think). Of course, they also use tropes and such, "Sydney, you just challenged a guy to a fight after declaring you are unbeatable." "/gasp! A guaranteed loss!" So yeah, that probably means nothing, its just an interesting turn of events. They spent the first half of the day assuring her that things dont work like they do in comics (except when they tease her) and then the second half of the day is a total genre convention fest.

"My car!"

"...Why dd your car explode like that?"

"um... I may have had some... *cough* Grenades in the trunk...."

[Traab]

"My car!"

"...Why dd your car explode like that?"

"um... I may have had some... *cough* Grenades in the trunk...."

Haha, yeah, that one too. Though too be fair, as a telekinetic, at least he is the exception to the rule of, "If you are strong enough to hit someone with a car, you would likely do more damage just hitting him that hard instead of using a fiberglass shell as a weapon."

Though speaking of powerful telekinetics, it occurred to me a bright move on HIS part would have been to float all the nonflying good guys. Math, Anvil, Achilles, Peggy, Mr Amorphus. He could negate them from taking part in the fight just by having them float 5 feet in the air. Then concentrate on the ones who CAN avoid that trap. Boom, he just removed over a third of the heroes from the equation. If he can pull off a bluff and make it look like he isnt doing anything, its even possible it would take a long time to figure out who is doing it. Or do a one two combination. "Hey guys, here is the plan, everyone pick a target, I will have opal open a portal next to your ear when I am ready and I will freeze your opponent in place telekinetically for a few seconds, use that opening to murder them so hard they die from it." (QC comic quote 4tw) Then just lather rinse repeat. Boom, Math takes lee press on claws to the gut as he is frozen for a critical second, Slash goes Dabbler as she is unable to parry heavenly sword at a critical moment, etc etc etc. He doesnt have to do it for long, just a quiet word of "get ready" then freeze for long enough to make a major attack. No warning as to who is doing it, what is happening, or an opening to counter as he waits to try for that moment instead of letting the good guy prepare for it. Obviously this wouldnt work on all of them, but once again, it is still more than the idiot was doing till the very end.

[Ibrinar]

Stopping someones movements entirely with telekinesis requires serious fine control. Though creating an opening doesn't really require that much fine control, in a fight just destroying their balance could be their end. Anyway if you have that much fine control, can affect humans and are decently powerful you could just snap the neck of anyone without superhuman strength or defenses. (Or strangle them or just put pressure on major arteries if you have really good precision on moving target. Though the really scary ones are telekinetics who can directly affect someones insides.)

[Traab]

Stopping someones movements entirely with telekinesis requires serious fine control. Though creating an opening doesn't really require that much fine control, in a fight just destroying their balance could be their end. Anyway if you have that much fine control, can affect humans and are decently powerful you could just snap the neck of anyone without superhuman strength or defenses. (Or strangle them or just put pressure on major arteries if you have really good precision on moving target. Though the really scary ones are telekinetics who can directly affect someones insides.)

You dont even need to do much, just telekinetically grab their arms so they cant block, or their legs so they cant dodge. Yeah the fine control potential harm is super scary, but this is pretty much as brute force as it gets. No need to get fancy, just restrict their movement at a critical juncture and boom, they take a hit wide open. Oh sure, giving superman a stroke is a fun way to show off, but making him face plant every time he tries to run around you by making his heel stick to the ground for an instant is almost as good.

[AvatarVecna]

There was something interesting I just noticed. Earlier on in the comic, maxima and crew are making sure to point out to sydney all the ways that genre convention is wrong, misses the obvious, or fails fridge logic. As an example, collateral damage in fights is rarely mentioned, and no, just because you could regen doesnt mean you will be used like wolverine to absorb bullets, things like that. And yet in this fight, she has used tropes and genre savvy and been right every single time (I think). Of course, they also use tropes and such, "Sydney, you just challenged a guy to a fight after declaring you are unbeatable." "/gasp! A guaranteed loss!" So yeah, that probably means nothing, its just an interesting turn of events. They spent the first half of the day assuring her that things dont work like they do in comics (except when they tease her) and then the second half of the day is a total genre convention fest.

I'd like to highlight a key difference: Sydney used her Genre-savviness three times to take someone down. However, only one of those occasions was fulfilling the trope it related to. Let's look at how those fights would've gone in the comics:

1) Negative Energy Guy knocks off Sydney's glasses, effectively blinding her. Sydney flails for her glasses for a few seconds before getting backstabbed to death. What actually happened: Sydney took an opportunity to invoke the trope, causing the bad guy to let his guard down, before she took him out. She used her GS to take him out, but it was by subverting the trope rather than playing it straight.

2) This comes up again with Lee Press On Nails: in the comics, his foes would take both of his statements for granted, and would proceed to try and force their way past his supposedly invulnerable defense (we know this is what they'd do, because that's what they're doing with Vehemence). Sydney, having been informed that things don't work like they do in the comics, took a few seconds to think these statements through, and followed them to their logical conclusion: namely, that only one of his statements could be correct. Again, Sydney is using her GS to take out a bad guy, but she's taking him down by logicking the trope to death, rather than playing it straight.

3) Periwinkle Buttsniffer comes up last: Sydney figures out his power, and uses her Genre Sense to figure out the hole in his defense. This is a perfect example of Sydney living by the tropes, and it turning out that the tropes were realistic: in comic books and various games (whether video games or tabletop), it's an assumption of the players that there has to be a way to bypass a villain's defenses, so matter how powerful they may seem. In D&D 3.5, for example, it's stated in the DMG that up to about 5% of fights should be fights the PCs can't win. That said, players have found ways of getting their characters to wish themselves to godhood; because the tools exist to beat the villains, the players kept searching for the nonexistent hole in the enemies defenses until they became powerful enough to MAKE a hole in their enemies defenses. It's entirely possible that they could run into a villain with legitimate invulnerability (I mean, they already know of a hero with that power: Achilles), so it's possible that they will continue assuming this particular trope is true up until the point where it bites them in the ass.

Also, I think you're overestimating the abilities of telekinetics, and Vikter in particular. He's got a lot of power, but has shown next to no fancy telekinetic tricks and almost no fine control. He's never had a reason to learn how to use his powers in the fine-tuned way you're talking about. "But he's still strong enough to throw cars! He should be able to at least trip them up!" He could probably trip up Sydney (assuming he can get past her shield), or Math, or Dabbler. But Anvil and Mr. Amorphous? I'm pretty sure their strength is great enough that they could resist such an attempt, although powering past it would slow them down. It would probably be pointless to try it on Hiro, and it's almost guaranteed to be useless against Stalwart (car<bus<airplane<building<space station; it's just not happening). Don't even get me started on Maxima.

Could a powerful telekinetic with a great deal of control pull off things like this? Yes, but it wouldn't happen; not in comics, at least. Not only is it generally assumed that telekinetics don't have very fine control, but the ones that do are usually so powerful that they can kill you by throwing stuff at you, rather than being clever with their powers. Also, to get a little meta, that would make the comic/movie/whatever boring. Why don't we see telekinetics do that? Because it would be like having Bruce Wayne using his company and his billions to instigate socio-economical change in Gotham, or Superman using his speed and strength to power a giant motor that powers the whole world, or the Joker getting the professional help he need to rejoin society: sure, it makes sense, but who wants to see that? It's hardly the most realistic, but that's not necessarily what draws everyone to comics. Some people want to psychoanalyze the characters; some people want to pick apart the plot holes; some people want to read a good what-if story.

Some people want to see a man in a bat costume sucker punch a psychotic clown; some people want to see a raging green monster tear apart a city with his bare hands; some people want to see regular-sized people fight a guy who eats planets. Sure, it doesn't make sense, but it looks so cool!

[Traab]

While it may not have been fulfilling the tropes and conventions it was still using the knowledge of them for victory. Lee wasnt anything to do with tropes or conventions really, that was just logical thinking. The velma ploy was a perfect setup, honestly, im surprised she could even think that clearly at the moment. I mean, she had just been cold cocked and was facing death for the first time. (I dont count the "bank robbers" because they didnt actually try to kill her, they tried to hold her hostage and THREATENED to kill her. Nega boy actually tried) Its one thing to sit there safe and sound behind your perfect defense and think rationally like she did for death tolls and press on claws, its something else entirely to have a guy trying to stab you to death and come up with a cunning plan on the fly.

As for the telekinetic, I really dont see how grabbing a body requires more fine control than grabbing a car. He was able to whip up a telekinetic debris storm to protect opal from any but the stronger tank types, that had to take special skill and effort. Grabbing a person? That should be easy. And yeah, for my other plan, there are a large number of the good guys floating wouldnt do any good against, but at least 5 members would have been nearly useless if stuck in midair and incapable of getting themselves out. Thats over a third removed from combat. Yeah stalwart and Hiro could have broken loose, dabbler likely had some sort of special invention that would have worked, and maxima and halo could have just powered out of it or in halos case, ignored it utterly, she is in her shield and can strike from range anyways. Anvil is strong, yeah, but her ability is to absorb kinetic energy, not much to absorb or hit while floating in mid air. And achilles, he cant do anything except for not get hurt. I think he is a little more powerful and faster than a normal human because he doesnt have to worry about pulling muscles and such, but other than that, he is floating and helpless.

Hey, speaking of anvil, i just thought of the dumbest yet coolest idea ever. She can store and unleash kinetic energy right? Have stalwart and hiro and sydney punch the bejeesus out of her (sydney uses her tentacle orb which is clearly mid level super strength)while maxima is keeping vehemence busy, then when its time, she runs over and KABLAMMO! she releases enough kinetic energy to launch the space shuttle into orbit. Literally knock his block off.

*EDIT* I call this the "Reason Reckoning Got Nerfed" Gambit. For those who play World of Warcraft you know what im talking about. lol

[AvatarVecna]

While it may not have been fulfilling the tropes and conventions it was still using the knowledge of them for victory. Lee wasnt anything to do with tropes or conventions really, that was just logical thinking. The velma ploy was a perfect setup, honestly, im surprised she could even think that clearly at the moment. I mean, she had just been cold cocked and was facing death for the first time. (I dont count the "bank robbers" because they didnt actually try to kill her, they tried to hold her hostage and THREATENED to kill her. Nega boy actually tried) Its one thing to sit there safe and sound behind your perfect defense and think rationally like she did for death tolls and press on claws, its something else entirely to have a guy trying to stab you to death and come up with a cunning plan on the fly.

As for the telekinetic, I really dont see how grabbing a body requires more fine control than grabbing a car. He was able to whip up a telekinetic debris storm to protect opal from any but the stronger tank types, that had to take special skill and effort. Grabbing a person? That should be easy. And yeah, for my other plan, there are a large number of the good guys floating wouldnt do any good against, but at least 5 members would have been nearly useless if stuck in midair and incapable of getting themselves out. Thats over a third removed from combat. Yeah stalwart and Hiro could have broken loose, dabbler likely had some sort of special invention that would have worked, and maxima and halo could have just powered out of it or in halos case, ignored it utterly, she is in her shield and can strike from range anyways. Anvil is strong, yeah, but her ability is to absorb kinetic energy, not much to absorb or hit while floating in mid air. And achilles, he cant do anything except for not get hurt. I think he is a little more powerful and faster than a normal human because he doesnt have to worry about pulling muscles and such, but other than that, he is floating and helpless.

Fair enough about the timing of the Velma ploy. Of course, it's possible that Sydney's pulled this on a bully in the past or something, or maybe she spent downtime fantasizing about pulling something like this. Still, that's not really something we could predict, and it would feel pretty hackish even if that was the source of her plan, so whatever.

Alright, full list time: how well would the "lift them up" plan work against the various members of the team?

Maxima: Super useless. Not only is she far too strong and tough to be bothered by such a puny amount of force, she can fly under her own power, and has ranged blasts to boot.

Halo: Useless. Not only would her shield probably block any attempt, she can fly, and has ranged blasts.

Peggy: A different kind of useless: other than a few potshots (one of which damaged, but almost certainly didn't take down, Concretia), she's done next to nothing. Okay, she shot out V's eye, but that lasted...what, a full minute of webcomic time? He healed it in the most recent comic. And it's not like it gave Maxima the opening she needed to take him out; he's still going strong...in fact, stronger than ever.

Achilles: Useful. Achilles is invulnerable, and has a touch of super-strength, but almost certainly not enough to overcome Vikter's telekinesis. Unlike Peggy, he'll definitely survive the fall if he's dropped.

Hiro: Almost certainly useless. He's almost certainly strong enough to ignore the telekinetic force. Like, 98% positive.

Stalwart: Useless. He weighs as much as a space station.

Dabbler: Useless. Either she'll find a way out of it, or she'll find a way to make it not matter (ranged attacks and the like).

Anvil: Possibly useful. Anvil has a fair amount of base super-strength, rating a 3/5 to Hiro's 4/5. It's possible that Vekter is capable of lifting her into the air with her resisting the lift...unless the telekinesis lifting her counts as kinetic energy. Then he's boned.

Mr. Amorphous: Probably useful. He's about as strong as Anvil, but he doesn't have the potential escape option of kinetic absorbtion.

Math: Useful. Math is a capable combatant, but he doesn't have the strength necessary to resist the lift; he also doesn't have a useful ranged attack, or any method of escaping the telekinetic hold. It's possible he could survive the fall, though.

Harem: Useless. She can teleport, and has her own ways of taking people out.

Jiggawatt: Useless. Sure, she'd probably get lifted into the sky...at which point she begins raining down lightning bolts. She also has a "sort-of" flight power.

All in all, this tactic affects 3 for sure, and maybe 5, depending on Vekter's power. However, we also have to take into account that it might be more difficult to lift multiple objects (two rocks, sure, but two brick superheroes?). Furthermore, of the 3 (or 5) lifted, only one is in any reasonable danger from falling if the power is released.

But you know what? Let's say that he's capable of pulling off both the "lift them into the air" plan and the "stopping their limbs in battle" plan. ARC-Light finds him, tells Maxima who he is, where he is, and what he can do, she pieces everything together at lightning speed, and then she takes off the kiddie gloves and wipes the floor with everyone but Vehemence. The rest of them are there to give Maxima an opportunity to size up the opponents, as well as to let her conserve her energy for the real fight. TBH, there's only a "team" because A) Maxima is too Lawful Good to do stuff without government approval and rules, and B) the government wants as many supers on their side as possible, which wouldn't happen if they used Maxima as their "We have the best, so we don't need anybody else" version of Captain America.