Lord of the Sevenfold Shadows(COUNTERING FAMOUS OPTIMIZED CHARACTERS BUILDS)

[ragevillain]

Again , I'm not attacking you the characters are not seeing me . You are being attacked by the Ice Assassin . The Master is safe

Towershield:
This massive wooden shield is nearly as tall as you are. In most situations, it provides the indicated shield bonus to your AC. However, you can instead use it as total cover, though you must give up your attacks to do so. The shield does not, however, provide cover against targeted spells; a spellcaster can cast a spell on you by targeting the shield you are holding. You cannot bash with a tower shield, nor can you use your shield hand for anything else.
When employing a tower shield in combat, you take a –2 penalty on attack rolls because of the shield’s encumbrance.

no action, detail, I can use any supernatural ability or Still spells when i want or contingency spell.

To recall , the Master of Shadow already know you will cast Disjuntion . It is not a surprise.

[Buufreak]

Again , I'm not attacking you the characters are not seeing me ...

Towershield:
However, you can instead use it as total cover, though you must give up your attacks to do so.

no action, detail, I can use any supernatural ability or Still spells when i want or contingency spell.

So now we need to define "attack" vs "action." If I remember my RAW correctly, an attack is any action taken that in some way harms another creature. I'm fairly sure all the spells listed thus far qualify.

Edited for quote relevance.

[ragevillain]

That does not stop my actions. This is a fact.

[AvatarVecna]

Fine then. The first round of Disjunctions go off without anything happening, because your Tower Shield is teleporting around your body to provide full cover from all of them. At that point, the blasting spells start going off, inevitably destroying your tower shield once you fail to roll a 20 on the save (because the save DC is too high to make). At this point, more Disjunctions start going off, and this time you've got no Tower Shield to protect you. Once the second wave of Disjunctions go off, your Ice Assassin is defenseless magically...at which point more blasting spells begin going off, inevitably killing the Ice Assassin once they fail enough of them. This is all Contingencies, so your spell doesn't go off until after they're all done...and your Ice Assassin will inevitably be dead before that happens.

Limited Wish-->Improvisation gives me 16*googol³ points of luck to work with; even attaching just +1 billion to every roll, I'll have enough uses to be making skill checks until the heat death of the universe. And that's ignoring how I'll have every special sense in existence.

And that's ignoring how I don't even need to find out where you are, because my contingencies triggered by somebody casting that spell close by enough to cast it, so I'll just sprinkle Disjunctions everywhere within range. It's not like I'm ever going to run out of Contingent Disjunctions, because I have Contingent Time Stops waiting to give me a full nights rest to regain my spell slots if I'm ever in danger of having less than a few googol spells.

[OldTrees1]

So now we need to define "attack" vs "action." If I remember my RAW correctly, an attack is any action taken that in some way harms another creature. I'm fairly sure all the spells listed thus far qualify.

Would you please cite that reading of "attack"? My intuition makes me think it is only includes things with an attack roll (you know, the thing that Tower Shields give a penalty to?).

Were you thinking about what breaks Invisibility or is stopped by Sanctuary? Invisibility defines a strictly internal definition of attack and thus is not relevant to Tower Shield. Sanctuary protects against more than just attacks so I would not cite it either.

[ragevillain]

Its not only Ice Assassin:

Ice Assassin Casting

Greater Arcane Fusion:
Slot 7: Body Outside Body (12Clones)
Slot 4: Sanctum Teleport


What is the real target? . In this case already difficult enough.
Clones uses spell-like celerity and supernatural mage disjunction.
If you attack my clones, they share Wings of Cover.

[ComaVision]

Would you please cite that reading of "attack"? My intuition makes me think it is only includes things with an attack roll (you know, the thing that Tower Shields give a penalty to?).

This is my understanding as well. I would be interested to see the relevant text.

[AvatarVecna]

Its not only Ice Assassin:

Ice Assassin Casting

Greater Arcane Fusion:
Slot 7: Body Outside Body (12Clones)
Slot 4: Santuctum Teleport

Clones uses spell-like celerity and supernatural mage disjunction.
If you attack my clones, they share Wings of Cover.

Your Ice Assassin only gets to cast those spells after all my contingencies go off, which they won't survive. Oh, you have contingencies that trigger to give you actions if I try that? I have a trillion trillion trillion contingencies for every action you could possibly take, including your own contingencies activating.

[AvatarVecna]

Yeah, done feeding the troll at this point. Have fun convincing yourself you can somehow beat nigh-uncountable contingencies on the draw.

[ragevillain]

Detail, H.I.V.E can not affect the Ice Assassins . U need infinite xp and endless days

Dude, if you want to use endless craft contingency , infinite cohort , each and every ice assassin and clones can use endless actions.

Supernatural Greater Arcane Fusion
Slot 7: Sanctum Greater Arcane Fusion
Slor 4: Twin Celerity .
So we are endless actions.
So let's stop talking about infinite loops.
Just show me how TO build will never be real.
H.I.V.E can use infinite Mage Disjuntion and continue without any effect.

[Buufreak]

Would you please cite that reading of "attack"? My intuition makes me think it is only includes things with an attack roll (you know, the thing that Tower Shields give a penalty to?).

Were you thinking about what breaks Invisibility or is stopped by Sanctuary? Invisibility defines a strictly internal definition of attack and thus is not relevant to Tower Shield. Sanctuary protects against more than just attacks so I would not cite it either.

Afb at work. Will track it down when I get home in about 5 hours.

[Zanos]

Yeah, done feeding the troll at this point. Have fun convincing yourself you can somehow beat nigh-uncountable contingencies on the draw.

Another successful lord draco thread!

*Munches Popcorn*

[ryu]

Another successful lord draco thread!

*Munches Popcorn*

Ah.... No one wants the fudge I mentioned last page.

[OldTrees1]

Afb at work. Will track it down when I get home in about 5 hours.

Thank you. I hope your day goes smoothly.

[Buufreak]

Thank you. I hope your day goes smoothly.

Awww. You're my new favorite. Thanks mate.

[Demidos]

Just stopping by momentarily --

As far as I can recall, the closest definition to attack I remember coming across in my reading is from the Invisibility spell, which states...

"The spell ends if the subject attacks any creature. For purposes of this spell, an attack includes any spell targeting a foe or whose area or effect includes a foe."

Not the most helpful definition, but hey, maybe it helps.

[ragevillain]

Just stopping by momentarily --

As far as I can recall, the closest definition to attack I remember coming across in my reading is from the Invisibility spell, which states...

"The spell ends if the subject attacks any creature. For purposes of this spell, an attack includes any spell targeting a foe or whose area or effect includes a foe."

Not the most helpful definition, but hey, maybe it helps.

good definition
But for that spell, in the case of towershield it is clear that refers to physical combat .

[Morcleon]

good definition
But for that spell, in the case of towershield it is clear that refers to physical combat .

Not necessarily. A tower shield makes no clarification on the word "attack", so Demidos' given definition is probably correct. Either that, or the one from Sanctuary, which is the same thing. Besides, I'm pretty sure that casting as hostile spell is pretty attack-y either way.

[ragevillain]

Good , but it does not matter . Because Craft Contingency spell can not target the enemy.
Pag 140 complete arcane :
Once triggered , the spell take immediate effect upon the bearer contingency (Or is centered in the bearer 's squere if the spell Affect an area).
If the enemie use mage disjunction as craft contingent spell, he will disjoin himself.

[Extra Anchovies]

Good , but it does not matter . Because Craft Contingency spell can not target the enemy.
Pag 140 complete arcane :
Once triggered , the spell take immediate effect upon the bearer contingency (Or is centered in the bearer 's squere if the spell Affect an area).
If the enemie use mage disjunction as craft contingent spell, he will disjoin himself.

The Contingency spell (which can be Reserves of Strength'd to work with spells of any level) does not contain similar language, but states "the spell to be brought into effect by the contingency must be one that affects your person".

I'm not in agreement with OP on any points they try to make based on this, but I am curious about how the HIVE and/or any other build gets around those limits, if it is possible to do so.

[Gallowglass]

The Contingency spell (which can be Reserves of Strength'd to work with spells of any level) does not contain similar language, but states "the spell to be brought into effect by the contingency must be one that affects your person".

I'm not in agreement with OP on any points they try to make based on this, but I am curious about how the HIVE and/or any other build gets around those limits, if it is possible to do so.

It doesn't. They don't. All the TO builds are just as ridiculous and poor rules-definition dependent as LordDrako's ultimate abbed sorcerer. The Lord of Shadows is no more ridiculous than HIVE or Tippy or any of the others. Although, he excels in using AS MANY DIFFERENT ridiculous rulings as its possible to use instead of focusing on getting the most out of just one. The only reason LordDrako's build doesn't get put on the shelf with the other TO builds is because of how violently and silly he defends it in his threads and how angry he gets the forum regulars who he baits into confrontation.

[OldTrees1]

Just stopping by momentarily --

As far as I can recall, the closest definition to attack I remember coming across in my reading is from the Invisibility spell, which states...

"The spell ends if the subject attacks any creature. For purposes of this spell, an attack includes any spell targeting a foe or whose area or effect includes a foe."

Not the most helpful definition, but hey, maybe it helps.

Bolded for emphasis. That rather specific and explicit qualifier makes me think it is a strictly internal definition of "attack".

Not necessarily. A tower shield makes no clarification on the word "attack", so Demidos' given definition is probably correct. Either that, or the one from Sanctuary, which is the same thing. Besides, I'm pretty sure that casting as hostile spell is pretty attack-y either way.

See above about the strictly internal definition in Invisibility.
I mentioned that Sanctuary stops more than just attacks, so my reading of it does not see it as defining attack.

However I agree that showing neither Invisibility nor Sanctuary are relevant definitions would not prove the extent of what is the relevant definition for Tower Shield. Hence why I am patiently waiting for Buufreak's examination of his books tonight. (Although my intuition is that Tower Shield considers something an attack if it has an attack roll).

[ragevillain]

Man, I do not know who is lord dark . Second, Master of Shadow is not changing any rules. I'm giving page and book for everybody see .
This is a Practical Build , it is cheap (no items or cost) and has no infinite loop.

[ragevillain]

However I agree that showing neither Invisibility nor Sanctuary are relevant definitions would not prove the extent of what is the relevant definition for Tower Shield. Hence why I am patiently waiting for Buufreak's examination of his books tonight. (Although my intuition is that Tower Shield considers something an attack if it has an attack roll).

I think it has to do with attack roll. That seems kind of obvious .

[FearlessGnome]

I think it has to do with attack roll. That seems kind of obvious .

So... Wail of the Banshee wouldn't be an 'attack'? Or Fireball? And a lot of monster entries have 'special' attacks that don't involve any rolls on their part.

[Flickerdart]

I think it has to do with attack roll. That seems kind of obvious .

Oh, how wrong you are.

As just one of many examples - swarms unambiguously attack, and also unambiguously never roll attack rolls.

[ragevillain]

Well, all the doubts that exist, I am against my interpretation and accepting in the enemy's advantage.
I can not cast offensive actions.
Soon, Greater Arcane Fusion is a personal target. I can use without problem.
Including creating clones next to me.
They can also cast spell-like Wings of Cover ( Sharing with me ).
It works the same way as the TowerShield . And still confuses the enemy.

Do you agree?

[ComaVision]

Oh, how wrong you are.

As just one of many examples - swarms unambiguously attack, and also unambiguously never roll attack rolls.

I'd argue that is hundreds/thousands of attacks that would have individual attack rolls but it has been simplified. Though, I acknowledge this holds no water in a RAW discussion.

It works the same way as the TowerShield . And still confuses the enemy.

Do you agree?

I'm certainly confused.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Can we jump straight to the 'formal tournament' stage of the discussion, instead of waiting fifty pages ? It'd be interested to see what various builds can do. As per ragevillain's own contest rules, infinite loops and epic levels are banned, and Dragon Magazine, but everything else is in, including optional mechanics like taint (that's going to be hugely problematic, but hey, it means you can use bloodline cheese with impunity).

[Flickerdart]

I'd argue that is hundreds/thousands of attacks that would have individual attack rolls but it has been simplified.

Surely many attack rolls should be simplified to one attack roll, rather than none?