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2016-12-20, 12:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List
But only one of the two interpretations is a correct interpretation of what the sentence actually says. We can, for most of the dysfunctions already brought up, be quite clear on what the rule is supposed to mean (obviously, drowning someone is only ever supposed to reduce their hit points), but what the rule actually says is the bludgeoning damage dealt by the hammer is the same as the amount dealt by the spiked gauntlet, id est zero. There is no real argument to be had that what the sentence actually says is "The hammer deals bludgeoning damage equal to the damage dealt by a spiked gauntlet of the same size", only one that it might have been intended to say that.
Incidentally, the fact that all of the red feathers in a box with zero red feathers in is zero red feathers is even more blindingly obvious, so I don't see what the point of that example is.Last edited by Jormengand; 2016-12-20 at 12:46 PM.
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2016-12-20, 01:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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2016-12-20, 01:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List
If an effect said it dealt bludgeoning damage equal to your Strength modifier, would it deal no damage because your Strength modifier doesn't deal bludgeoning damage?
Rhymes with "Protracted."
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2016-12-20, 02:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List
No, but if it said it dealt bludgeoning damage equal to that dealt by your strength modifier, which is the wording used by the hammer, then it would deal no damage. If the amount of damage that the hammer dealt actually was a spiked gauntlet, that would be even more dysfunctional, though.
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2016-12-20, 02:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List
Creator of the LA-assignment thread.
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2016-12-20, 02:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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2016-12-20, 03:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List
Kaedanis Pyran, tai faernae.
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2016-12-20, 03:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List
S P I K E D G A U N T L E T
19 + 16 + 9 + 11 + 5 + 4 + 7 + 1 + 21 + 14 + 20 + 12 + 5 + 20
164
Q.E.D: hammers can smash through an iron door, an inch of stone, and then another iron door with a single blow.Creator of the LA-assignment thread.
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2016-12-21, 07:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List
Indeed, all 1 of the possible English readings of the text are dysfunctional!
Savage Species' Chain Lash:
"You can fight with it as if fighting with two weapons, incurring all the normal attack penalties as if using a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. In this case, you can only strike at an adjacent opponent."
"In addition, unlike other weapons with reach, you can use it against an adjacent foe. In this case, you can only use one end of the chain effectively; you cannot use it as a double weapon."
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2016-12-21, 08:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List
So you can use the weapon as a double weapon, but it does not have reach. Or you can use it as a reach weapon and it can also hit adjacent opponents, like a spiked chain.
No dysfunctions here. The 2 phrases are separated to refer to the two possible uses of the weapon.
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2016-12-21, 08:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List
Right, ignoring the fact that the distinction between using an inclusive reach weapon to attack an adjacent square and using a reach weapon as a non-reach weapon to attack that same square is nothing. There's no difference between one action, which is forbidden, and another action, which is allowed.
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2016-12-21, 08:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List
No, attacking with a inclusive reach weapon (like a spiked chain, or the chain lash in this case) an adjacent square is explicitly allowed. And attacking an adjacent square with a non-reach weapon is allowed.
I don't get what do you think is the dysfunction.
EDIT: Also, this is the weapon text:
Chain Lash:This is a simple chain with weighted ends.
It can be whirled quickly, striking with hard blows because
of the weights. One end can also be swung out to entangle
an opponent. Kytons often wield these weapons in place of
their chain rakes and apply their dancing chains ability to
them.
The chain lash can be used either as a double weapon or
as a reach weapon. You can fight with it as if fighting with
two weapons, incurring all the normal attack penalties as if
using a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. In this
case, you can only strike at an adjacent opponent.
If you use the chain lash as a reach weapon, you can strike
opponents 10 feet away with it. In addition, unlike other
weapons with reach, you can use it against an adjacent foe.
In this case, you can only use one end of the chain effec-
tively; you cannot use it as a double weapon.
Because the chain lash can wrap around an enemy’s leg or
other limb, you can make trip attacks with it. If you are
tripped during your own trip attempt, you can drop the
chain lash to avoid being tripped.
When using a chain lash, you get a +2 bonus on your
opposed attack roll when attempting to disarm an oppo-
nent (including the roll to avoid being disarmed if you fail
to disarm your opponent).
You can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dex-
terity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack
rolls with a chain lash.Last edited by flare'90; 2016-12-21 at 08:38 AM.
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2016-12-21, 08:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List
The dysfunction is that you both can only, and cannot, attack adjacent squares while using it as a double weapon:
"You can fight with it as if fighting with two weapons, incurring all the normal attack penalties as if using a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. In this case, you can only strike at an adjacent opponent."
""In addition, unlike other weapons with reach, you can use it against an adjacent foe. In this case, you can only use one end of the chain effectively; you cannot use it as a double weapon."
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2016-12-21, 08:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List
"The chain lash can be used either as a double weapon or as a reach weapon."
You chose to use the chain lash as a double weapon or as a reach weapon, not both.
In the first case (double weapon) it does not have reach. You can only attack adjacent opponents.
In the second case (reach weapon) it does have reach. You can attack opponents 10' away. In addition you can attack adjacent opponents, since the text explicitly tells you that you can.
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2016-12-21, 08:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List
Okay, let me rephrase:
What is the point of the reach weapon form of the weapon being inclusive reach, given that if you were going to attack the creature 5 feet away, you could use the double weapon form?
Or to rephrase again:
When you attack a creature 5 feet away, you can either choose to fight with it as a double weapon, or as an inclusive reach weapon. Doing the latter is clearly pointless. However, the only time when you can't attack with it as a double weapon is when it's in the secondary mode, and you're attacking a creature 5 feet away. Thus, the entire thing with it having two modes is pointless anyway.
Or to rephrase again:
The given case where "You can only use one end of the chain effectively; you cannot use it as a double weapon" is when "you... use it against an adjacent foe". However, when you're attacking from 5 feet away, you can attack with it as a double weapon anyway. Even if you read the "You cannot use it as a double weapon" as applying to the whole "If you use the chain lash as a reach weapon, you can strike opponents 10 feet away with it. In addition, unlike other weapons with reach, you can use it against an adjacent foe," then giving it inclusive reach is totally pointless, because being a double weapon is just better than not being (if you have a double weapon, you can wield it as a single weapon anyway) and because you can choose on each attack, the weapon description is just redundant and self-abnegating.
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2016-12-21, 09:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List
Maybe it's useful if you want to attack a target 10' away, you drop it and use Cleave to attack someone adjacent?
What's more likely to be a dysfunction is that the weapon does not specifies if you're meant to choose reach or double weapon at the start of a full attack action or you can mix in the same full-attack. Presonally I read it as "chose one or the other for this round" but it's ambigous.
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2016-12-21, 10:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List
You do have to decide how you are going to use it at the beginning of the round and for the whole round because that's how you calculate your to-hit bonus or penalty.
The text is important because you have to choose for the round whether you want reach or an extra attack and when you get into BABs of 6 and above I can think of plenty of situations where the decision would be relevant.
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2016-12-21, 10:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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2016-12-21, 01:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List
"You can fight with it as if fighting with two weapons, incurring all the normal attack penalties as if using a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. In this case, you can only strike at an adjacent opponent."
""In addition, unlike other weapons with reach, you can use it against an adjacent foe. In this case, you can only use one end of the chain effectively; you cannot use it as a double weapon."
Okay clarifying. To use it as a double weapon, you have to attack adjacent targets, as the the first paragraph. BUT! To attack adjacent, you cannot use it as a double weapon, as the second. That is what the text says.
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2016-12-21, 03:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List
No, what the text says is that you cannot use it as both a reach weapon and a double weapon at the same time.
As such when it is a reach weapon the inclusive reach rules apply and the double weapon rules do not and when it is a double weapon the double weapon rules apply and the inclusive reach rules do notLast edited by PallentisLunam; 2016-12-21 at 03:37 PM.
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2016-12-21, 04:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List
That's not what it's saying though. The second paragraph there, in direct contradiction to the first, says that you cannot attack adjacent targets with it while using it as a double weapon. And also, you could switch between using it as a double weapon and as a reach weapon. You just have to accept TWF penalties on all your attacks, just like if you were using a ranseur with a spiked gauntlet.
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2016-12-21, 04:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List
No. The first line of the entry says you can use the weapon as a reach weapon or a double weapon. It is never a reach double weapon. So the rules don't ever apply at the same time.
You have, however, convinced me that as long as you declare the penalties from the start you can switch back and forth as many times as you have attacks
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2016-12-21, 04:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List
Let's look at those two lines again:
You can fight with it as if fighting with two weapons, incurring all the normal attack penalties as if using a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. In this case, you can only strike at an adjacent opponent.
In addition, unlike other weapons with reach, you can use it against an adjacent foe. In this case, you can only use one end of the chain effectively; you cannot use it as a double weapon.
So if these three sentences:
If you use the chain lash as a reach weapon, you can strike opponents 10 feet away with it. In addition, unlike other weapons with reach, you can use it against an adjacent foe. In this case, you can only use one end of the chain effectively; you cannot use it as a double weapon.
If you use the chain lash as a reach weapon, you can strike opponents 10 feet away with it. In this case, you can only use one end of the chain effectively; you cannot use it as a double weapon. In addition, unlike other weapons with reach, you can use it against an adjacent foe.
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2016-12-21, 04:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List
I'm not sure if this has been noted before.
Reptilian template in Savage Species:
"Attacks: A reptilian gains a claw attack if it did not already have one."
A claw. As in, just one. Because bilateral symmetry is for those nerdy therapsids.Handbooks:
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2016-12-21, 05:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List
The line I was referring to is this one:
The chain lash can be used either as a double weapon or as a reach weapon.
No. This line says that when using the weapon as a double weapon, you may only attack adjacent creatures. An important distinction.
What this line says is that when the weapon has the reach property you can use it to attack adjacent foes, but only as a reach weapon not as a double weapon. And the "case" referred to in this line is not "when attacking adjacent creatures" it is "when the weapon has the inclusive reach property and you use it to attack adjacent creatures" therefore there is no dysfunction.
Is it dysfunctional that a warforged only gets one slam attack?Last edited by PallentisLunam; 2016-12-21 at 05:31 PM.
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2016-12-21, 05:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List
Octopi (not giant, regular) get a single attack with their 8 arms combined. Maybe these guys are the same.
I think there is actually a rule or at least generalization in the MM along the lines of "medium creatures typically have one slam attack, large creatures have two" because a Medium creature uses its entire body to slam, and a Large one can use each forelimb by itself.
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2016-12-21, 06:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List
Yes! But only when wielding a two-handed weapon or both arms are occupied. You may not be aware, but slam attacks can be something of a sore spot for me...
If only! Generalization, possibly... Rule, not so much. Actually, all the RAI I can find points to slams always being associated with arms. The dysfunction is when you have a single slam and are trying to do something else with your arms, when is the slam no longer available? But I'm pretty sure that's a known dysfunction.
I'm ok with the octopus only getting a single arms attack, although I am sad that it can't take advantage of Multi-Weapon Fighting. A better example might be the hawk which has two talons but only one attack roll for both of them.Last edited by Darrin; 2016-12-21 at 06:17 PM.
Handbooks:
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2016-12-21, 10:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List
Some slams are made with the whole body. You see it sometimes with aquatic creatures, like the porpoise.
Rhymes with "Protracted."
Handbooks: The Warlockopedia | The Warmagepedia (WIP) | Tier List (2019 Update)
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2016-12-21, 11:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List
I always assumed warforged got one slam because it was a two handed overhead smash kinda thing.
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2016-12-22, 12:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dysfunctional Rules IX: 1d3 Dysfunctions from the 8th Level List
I understand that, and am not questioning it.
But let me address your points
No. This line says that when using the weapon as a double weapon, you may only attack adjacent creatures. An important distinction.
What this line says is that when the weapon has the reach property you can use it to attack adjacent foes, but only as a reach weapon not as a double weapon. And the "case" referred to in this line is not "when attacking adjacent creatures" it is "when the weapon has the inclusive reach property and you use it to attack adjacent creatures" therefore there is no dysfunction.