Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXXII: I Got 99 Guardsmen and Morale Killed One.

[Forum Explorer]

G
WHAT!?



...Apparently someone is betting on something other than that.

None of the other bonuses have made sense, why should theirs?

[Drasius]

Some quick maths on when to use an Aspiring Sorcerors smite says that unless the enemy target is worth at least 25 point per wound*, you'll do more damage to your own unit than the enemy. This makes me sad.

The target number for GK should be roughly similar since their grunts are 1 ppm more but their wargear will cover the difference due to the expensive Aspiring Sorc.

* Assuming there's no DtW roll, no other friendly units within 6" and you've got at least a min squad to eat casualties.

[boomwolf]

While true, I've yet to actually ever implode as aspiring sorcerer, and I smite every turn with them against practically everything.

Guess I'm just lucky?


Also, aspiring aint that expensive any more. still pays for expensive force weapon, but no more high base cost, at least according to CSM codex.


Anyways, Beil-Tan seems to be pushing specifically dire avengers, shining spears, and to a degree the scorpions/banshees.

Yaknow, now that I look at them, spears look pretty darn good. and the court can make them really scary (come from very far, shoot the choppy guys down, charge the shooty guys, if the shooty guys have a survivor or two next turn, you go away and do it to the next in line)

[Drasius]

While true, I've yet to actually ever implode as aspiring sorcerer, and I smite every turn with them against practically everything.

Guess I'm just lucky?


Also, aspiring aint that expensive any more. still pays for expensive force weapon, but no more high base cost, at least according to CSM codex.

Maybe I'm crazy or reading the wrong line, but aren't they 30 points base still? Then more for your pistol and FW?

[Eddums]

Guardians for Maelstrom, Dire Avengers for Eternal War?

Sure. With regards Biel-Tan though, my point stands. Iyanden can do the thing with Dire Avengers and an Autarch, and then you get to be Iyanden, which is awesome.

I mean, yeah, you can take Dire Avengers as Biel-Tan, and you win at fluff! Or, you can take Guardians, and be better, then spend the points you saved on more, better aspect warriors. None of whom will benefit from Biel-Tan's shuriken bonus. Still fluffy, but probably more effective.

Or, take Iyanden, and just be straight up better. Now, I'm mainly a fluffy gamer, so sure, I might play Biel-Tan as themselves. They're still Eldar, they're not going to be that bad. But Iyanden can do Biel-Tan's thing just as well as Biel-Tan can, and Iyanden's other stuff gets better as well. Seems off.

[Cheesegear]

Or, take Iyanden, and just be straight up better. Now, I'm mainly a fluffy gamer, so sure, I might play Biel-Tan as themselves. They're still Eldar, they're not going to be that bad. But Iyanden can do Biel-Tan's thing just as well as Biel-Tan can, and Iyanden's other stuff gets better as well. Seems off.

I guess since Biel-Tan got blowed up, Eldar's new front Faction is going to be Iyanden, which allows GW to push more Wraith units - even though Wraith units is exactly how you play Iyanden wrong, but GW doesn't know their own rules. So they have to make Iyanden good.

Meanwhile, Cadia got blown to poop, but it's okay, 'cause all the models are still Cadian and GW isn't making new models anytime soon.

[Eddums]

I just want plastic Aspect Warriors. I don't feel like that's too much to ask. It also occurs to me that that is a pretty 'good' reason for GW to be pushing Iyanden - all the on-theme models are already plastic. Just side-stepping the question of "why is the (theoretical) mainstay of our army still Finecast?"

[LeSwordfish]

Plastic aspect warriors strikes me as quite a big deal because a) most people don't buy very many of them, so you dont make a lot of money compared to the initial expense and b) Even combining some aspects (which would be to their detriment, I think), you'd end up needing to make multiple plastic kits, making that initial outlay that much more. They're still lovely models, so don't need the upgrade nearly as much as Orks etc.

[Pilum]

Sure. With regards Biel-Tan though, my point stands. Iyanden can do the thing with Dire Avengers and an Autarch, and then you get to be Iyanden, which is awesome.

What the Biel-Tan trait does mean, though, is that the 'line' infantry don't need that babysitting Autarch - s/he can go off and play with the glamour boys/girls, which seems closer to how GW portrays them.

Not saying that it's the best thing since sliced bread but it's not against the theme, really.

[boomwolf]

Maybe I'm crazy or reading the wrong line, but aren't they 30 points base still? Then more for your pistol and FW?

Not in the CSM codex, they don't have a separate cost entry there, so they base as rubric, and add pistol and force weapon.

[9mm]

Saim-hamm gets bikers ignore heavy weapons penalties.

who ever's left gets the -1 to hit outside of 12".

[Lost Demiurge]

Well, huh.

http://markets.businessinsider.com/n...hop-1004876469

Games Workshop is partnering up with Wizkids. From the looks of it, GW is letting them mess with older properties, like the old board games and non-Warhammer stuff.

Although, it looks like Wizkids got the rights to do a Warhammer Dicemasters set. Works for me! I loved the hell out of Dicemasters, but the power creep from mixing sets killed my interest.

Heh, maybe we'll see a new version of Chainsaw Warrior. That'd be amusing.

[Cheesegear]

who ever's left gets the -1 to hit outside of 12".

You mean Alaitoc? The Craftworld known for its Ranger spam and infiltration tactics? ...You don't say.
Guardians' guns only have a 12" range, so it'll be the first Craftworld (out of 5) that doesn't benefit Guardians far more than anything else. In fact it wont benefit Guardians at all. But hopefully that's the point...For once.

[Requizen]

You mean Alaitoc? The Craftworld known for its Ranger spam and infiltration tactics? ...You don't say.
Guardians' guns only have a 12" range, so it'll be the first Craftworld (out of 5) that doesn't benefit Guardians far more than anything else. In fact it wont benefit Guardians at all. But hopefully that's the point...For once.

Well, can't Guardian teams take the weapon platforms? Any of those longer than 24"?


The general Craftworlds Stratagem to move after shooting is interesting, but I don't know how often I can see myself giving up a precious Command Point to JSJ a single unit. Sure, edge cases where you need to move off an objective, shoot a unit, and then move back on, or something like that, but it feels very specific. Which is good, I guess.

[Brookshw]

The general Craftworlds Stratagem to move after shooting is interesting, but I don't know how often I can see myself giving up a precious Command Point to JSJ a single unit. Sure, edge cases where you need to move off an objective, shoot a unit, and then move back on, or something like that, but it feels very specific. Which is good, I guess.

Also for playing los tag which could be more frequent I'd guess.

[Requizen]

Also for playing los tag which could be more frequent I'd guess.

That's always been the strength of JSJ (Warp Spiders, Destroyers, Tau), but generally it's only been good when fielded en masse. I don't really think there's a singular unit that I'd want to take only one of and plan around LoS shenanigans with.

Like yeah, there are situations. You shoot a Dark Reaper unit and then run them behind a wall or something, but I wouldn't build around it is all I'm saying.

[LansXero]

Its a guaranteed +7 movement, so better than advancing (also you keep your shooting phase) Besides the obvious use, it would allow you to reach places you otherwise couldnt :O

[Forum Explorer]

You mean Alaitoc? The Craftworld known for its Ranger spam and infiltration tactics? ...You don't say.
Guardians' guns only have a 12" range, so it'll be the first Craftworld (out of 5) that doesn't benefit Guardians far more than anything else. In fact it wont benefit Guardians at all. But hopefully that's the point...For once.

The Saim Hamm doesn't benefit Guardians, unless you are counting Windriders as Guardians. Though we'll have to see the point costs, I'm not actually sure if taking Scatter Lasers will be better then Shurikan Cannons. 1 extra shot and 12 inch range, but no AP, and you can't battle focus, so you lose 6 inches of movement. Vypers is another story though. Maybe I'll end up taking one now.

Saim-hamm gets bikers ignore heavy weapons penalties.

who ever's left gets the -1 to hit outside of 12".

It's an interesting one. I don't think I'll bother with Scatter Lasers, unless they are actually cheaper then Shurikan Cannons, but the reroll charges is very nice for Shining Spears. Also goes very well with Banshee and Scorpion spam. And walking Wraith armies. Huh, considering Shining Spears want to get within 6 inches before they charge so they can fire Laser Lances, non-jetbike armies might actually get more use out of that trait.

[Requizen]

It's an interesting one. I don't think I'll bother with Scatter Lasers, unless they are actually cheaper then Shurikan Cannons, but the reroll charges is very nice for Shining Spears. Also goes very well with Banshee and Scorpion spam. And walking Wraith armies. Huh, considering Shining Spears want to get within 6 inches before they charge so they can fire Laser Lances, non-jetbike armies might actually get more use out of that trait.

Yeah I was gonna say, Striking Scorpions using SUA and rerolling charges actually makes Siam Hann fairly good for them.

I find it amusing that the different Chapters/Regiments/Craftworld rules have been pretty thematic to the background but at the same time they encourage really unfluffy lists haha.

[Beelzebub1111]

With 8th edition. Ibam building a Red Corsairs army. I plan on buying other peoples unwanted space marines stuff and modifying it. So far I have my own biker lord (unpanted, one arm is the plastic posessed sword arm], a salamanders tactical squad, and a thousand son's vindicator. Will be testing it out as a 500 point army this monday to see how it goes.

[Cheesegear]

I'm trying to find alternate paint schemes for Guilliman. Unfortunately, as opposed to my general advice for paint schemes, Guilliman isn't the kind of model I can paint six times, pick a scheme I like and Dettol the rest. I've only got the one.

I've seen the Custodes job. But a guy in my meta has already got Guilliman & Custodes ("There are no death stars in 8th Ed. There are no death stars in 8th Ed. There are no..."), and I don't like the Golden Guilliman anyway...It's just drybrushing, innit?

I want to paint him yellow. That way I can be like "My Guilliman is yellow, therefore my yellow Marines are obviously Ultramarines." except wont I look like a right **** when Dorn inevitably released for 40K ...and you have no idea how bad I want him to come back, crazed and insane, with Chainswords-for-hands (i.e; literal chainfists), punching Heretics in the head. Basically I just want Dorn to come back as Captain Amit.

My other option is to paint him as my Grey Knights. Which, if any of you can remember, are actually painted like Thousand Sons - it's a joke that I actually found funny for longer than five seconds.
However, I think my favourite option would be to paint him black as Deathwatch Marine. But, it's just that that requires extensive conversion work on that shoulder pad (rather than just the shaving/scraping I'm up for), and I don't think I'm good enough for that.

[Turalisj]

I'll probably paint him like my custodes; airbrush emerald green followed by an airbrush coat of super thinned pearl white to give it sorta a patina effect. You can still see the green under the white and it's a bit of a cool effect for not too much work.

[Drasius]

I'm trying to find alternate paint schemes for Guilliman.

My other option is to paint him as my Grey Knights. Which... are actually painted like Thousand Sons

So, your alternate paint scheme to blue and yellow/gold is ... blue and yellow/gold? Nice.

I do like your deathwatch idea though, that'd be interesting at the very least. I must admit to not being sure why you'd paint him as anything but ultras though since, ya know, he's their primarch. Would you paint Magnus up to look like Mortarion or visa versa?

[Cheesegear]

So, your alternate paint scheme to blue and yellow/gold is ... blue and yellow/gold? Nice.

But it's a different blue-and-gold. *double finger guns*
(Remember nu-Thousand Sons are more teal, rather than the ultramarine blue of...Ultramarines.)

I must admit to not being sure why you'd paint him as anything but ultras though since, ya know, he's their primarch.

Real simple. If he's a big blue idiot with the <Ultramarines> Keyword, he looks out of place with the rest of my army (which I'm not repainting).
If he's bright yellow, well, so are the rest of 'em. If Guilliman is an Ultramarine, then all the other kids with the yellow armour must be, too.
If he's Deathwatch or GK... I can literally do anything I want with the rest of my army... Janus lives!

Would you paint Magnus up to look like Mortarion or visa versa?

I like Magnus' colours.
The official Mortarion looks like sin, though. I don't know how I would paint it. Lucky I don't have to know, 'cause I don't play Chaos, and if I did, I would fall squarely on the Magnus side of the 'Magnus or Mortarion' question.

EDIT: This came up on my feed as I was writing this post.

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I couldn't really comment on it without seeing the rest of his army.

[Drasius]

Real simple. If he's a big blue idiot with the <Ultramarines> Keyword, he looks out of place with the rest of my army (which I'm not repainting).
If he's bright yellow, well, so are the rest of 'em. If Guilliman is an Ultramarine, then all the other kids with the yellow armour must be, too.
If he's Deathwatch or GK... I can literally do anything I want with the rest of my army... Janus lives!

Gee, who'd have thought that putting the primarch of the Ultramarines in charge of an army of Imperial Fists would look out of place...

If you want to be powergaming scum play to your meta, then you need to have fun wrong make sacrifices aesthetically. Regardless of which way you go, girlyman is still going to be 1/2 again the size of all your other duders and looks out of place regardless of what colour he is. Unless you do something fairly special with the model, it's also going to be pretty obvious that it's G-unit, regardless if he's bright yellow or not.

I like Magnus' colours.
The official Mortarion looks like sin, though. I don't know how I would paint it. Lucky I don't have to know, 'cause I don't play Chaos, and if I did, I would fall squarely on the Magnus side of the 'Magnus or Mortarion' question.

My point was that a primarch of 1 legion really doesn't belong in another legion, regardless of what colour you paint him. Those 2 are simply the existing examples for character with actual models. If it makes more sense, ask yourself if you'd think it'd look dumb with Mortarion painted up in world eater colours in a world eaters army.

[Cheesegear]

Gee, who'd have thought that putting the primarch of the Ultramarines in charge of an army of Imperial Fists would look out of place...

Only if I leave the Chapter badges on. Which I don't...Anymore.

If you want to be powergaming scum play to your meta, then you need to have fun wrong make sacrifices aesthetically.

No you don't. Else 'Count As' wouldn't be a thing. The whole reason that Count As exists, is because it is a pseudo-acceptable form of proxying.
A different paint scheme is technically Count As.

Unless you do something fairly special with the model, it's also going to be pretty obvious that it's G-unit, regardless if he's bright yellow or not.

It's not G-man that's the problem. It's the rest of my army.
I can repaint my army to match Guilliman...Or I can repaint Guilliman to match my army. Given the Golden/Custodes Guilliman is real, why can't I do anything I want?

My point was that a primarch of 1 legion really doesn't belong in another legion, regardless of what colour you paint him.

Look up any number of Count As conversions, and you'll see that you can do anything you want. As long as it's good and it looks like you put effort in.
(This is even more prevalent in 8th Ed., where Finecast models appear to be even harder to get, for some reason).

If it makes more sense, ask yourself if you'd think it'd look dumb with Mortarion painted up in world eater colours in a world eaters army.

Chaos is different, and especially Nurgle. There's all the Pestilence stuff going on.
Guilliman is smooth armour plates, his model can be anyone.

Spoiler: Stop

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Spoiler: Having

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Spoiler: Fun

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Spoiler: Wrong

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Spoiler: Now THIS is Heresy

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[Drasius]

No you don't. Else 'Count As' wouldn't be a thing. The whole reason that Count As exists, is because it is a pseudo-acceptable form of proxying.
A different paint scheme is technically Count As.

Counts as is when you're making a unit count as another unit. Having Guilliman "Counts As" himself doesn't really ... count when he specifically has different rules than the rest of your army (unless you then only proceed to play yeelow ultras, otherwise you're then saying to your opponent that this/these yellow models are one chapter tactic while these other, totally identically painted yellow marines have a totally different chapter tactic.

In my experience, counts as also gets a lot more leeway when it's done for fluff/with conversions rather than blatant powergaming in mind.

Given the Golden/Custodes Guilliman is real, why can't I do anything I want?

You can, just don't expect everyone to like it. Also, golden guilliman/dodgy emperor knockoffs look terrible.

"It's your hobby, do whatever you think looks cool to you."

Also, only the last of those had any effort put in looked like anything but a palette shifted rowboat.

[Cheesegear]

Having Guilliman "Counts As" himself doesn't really ... count when he specifically has different rules than the rest of your army (unless you then only proceed to play yeelow ultras, otherwise you're then saying to your opponent that this/these yellow models are one chapter tactic while these other, totally identically painted yellow marines have a totally different chapter tactic.

Nope, they'd all the be the same. I'm not that stupid.

In my experience, counts as also gets a lot more leeway when it's done for fluff/with conversions rather than blatant powergaming in mind.

Why not both?

Also, only the last of those had any effort put in looked like anything but a palette shifted rowboat.

Actually, you'll see that some of them have the Ultramarine symbol shaved off, because presumably if he's the only thing with Ultramarines' iconography, he'll stand out and look stupid.
So Guilliman has to be blue? What if you don't like blue? If you don't like blue you can't use Guilliman?

[LeSwordfish]

If, in the fluff of your army, he is Actual Roboute Guilleman, then try using a "crusade scheme" for him that combines Imperial Fist Yellow with Ultramarine Blue in a sort of heraldic style - that you could then also apply to certain other units (Custodes, say) with him. I can see him wearing the colours of the troops he fights alongside out of respect, and blue/yellow go really well together.

[Drasius]

Why not both?

Usually because powergamers don't care about the aesthetics compared to the crunch and it's the other way 'round for fluff fans. Obviously there's a sliding scale and not everyone fits the curve, but that's why I put the word usually at the front of my generalisation.

Actually, you'll see that some of them have the Ultramarine symbol shaved off, because presumably if he's the only thing with Ultramarines' iconography, he'll stand out and look stupid.
So Guilliman has to be blue? What if you don't like blue? If you don't like blue you can't use Guilliman?

Yes, but that's like saying that since you scraped the nurgle symbols off morty and didn't paint him like puke then the model isn't obviously mortarion (though it will still be ugly).

If you want to have any semblance of sticking to the fluff, well, yeah, you probably should be painting the primarch of the ultramarines in ultramarine colours. If you want to make up some special snowflake justification as to why Roboute Guilliman is hanging out - completely on his own with no UM honour guard or anything - with an army of <insert non-UM Astartes Chapter here> because reasons, go nuts. Just don't pretend that you're doing it for anything but the strength of the army list, in which case, why does it matter what colour you paint him? You're not building your army for the fluff so paint him however you think looks cool.

Even if you're playing a UM successor chapter who just happens to be bright yellow, would The Boat really repaint his armour to their colours to blend in if he happened to be mixed in with their army for whatever reason?