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2012-06-18, 02:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Skill Rules Absurdities (or, "Do you really want to do that?")
This came up in the last session.
My Warforged Juggernaut wanted to jump a gap. A 5-foot gap.
Simple, isn't it?
No.
According to the rules, my Juggie takes a penalty for not having a 30-foot base movement. Because some of it's movement will be used in the jump, it doesn't have the required 'run-up' either, doubling the DC. Then there is the penalty for Adamantine Armour Plating (a requirement for Juggies).
Basically, with no actual ranks in Jump, a Warforged Juggernaut needs to roll a 21 (on a D20) to make a 5-foot jump... even though the character is taller than that, and could simply fall across the hole and drag themselves up the other side.
Any more wierdities that people have noticed?Last edited by panaikhan; 2012-06-18 at 02:50 PM.
Current Character: Pathfinder Tiefling Sorcerer (Abyssal Sorcerer 5, Souleater 1)
Previous Favorite Characters:
D&D1e: Elven Mage 15/Thief ??
D&D2e: Saurian Necromancer 12
D&D3e: Warforged Juggernaut 5/ Artificer 5/ Acolyte of the Skin 4
D&D4e: Drow Swarm(?) Druid 3
OWoD: Daughter of Cacophony
NWoD: Galatea Promethean
DH: Hiveborn Assassin 3
Rifts: Nanobot Swarm / Airborne Computer Virus
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2012-06-18, 02:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2010
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- San Jose, CA
Re: Rules Absurdities (or, "Do you really want to do that?")
No, you can make a 20' runup for the jump even if you don't have a 20' movement. There is no rule stating the runup and jump must be on the same round. Admittedly, then it's even more ridiculous (imagine jumping and freezing in midair as you run out of movement, to complete the jump on the next round), but works by the rules.
For something really absurd, check out the Faster-than-Light Horseback Travel:
Last edited by Vladislav; 2012-06-18 at 02:52 PM.
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2012-06-18, 03:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2010
Re: Skill Rules Absurdities (or, "Do you really want to do that?")
You seem to have a very odd idea of what's trivial. A five foot standing jump is not something everyone can do and the character you described has numerous factors counting against him and may still be able to do it because of a most likely super human strength score.
Yes, your character could just fall across the gap, but then he'd need to make a climb check to scramble up the edge which the armor check penalty would still apply to. You'd more than likely succeed, but look lame doing it; the choice you made (or considered) leads to plenty of real world injuries.
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2012-06-18, 05:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2010
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- Texas
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Re: Skill Rules Absurdities (or, "Do you really want to do that?")
DC 5 normally for a 5-foot long jump. Double that for no running start, that's DC 10. -5 penalty for the Adamantine Body feat, equivalent to a DC 15. I assume that since you're a juggernaut, you also have a pretty good str score? That's nowhere near your numbers. What's the deal?
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2012-06-18, 06:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2007
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- Imagination Land
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Re: Skill Rules Absurdities (or, "Do you really want to do that?")
Looks like he's also taking a -6 penalty for 20ft move speed. Still, I'd assume a character like that has a decent Str score.
As for the claim of that being absurd, I don't think so. I seriously doubt I could make a 5-foot jump without a running start, and my body isn't even made out of adamantine.Last edited by KillianHawkeye; 2012-06-18 at 06:14 PM.
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2012-06-18, 06:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2008
Re: Skill Rules Absurdities (or, "Do you really want to do that?")
Anything involving Diplomancy, Bluff, or Knowledge: Local as-written.
I agree. I wouldn't assume it to be too hard for a person, but that is still assuming completely unencumbered.
Of course, just because you cannot jump five feet doesn't mean you couldn't just reach over the gap - or even simply step over it. I'd certainly assume that someone weighing close to a ton would have poor jumping ability, which naturally limits their mobility in some ways.SpoilerThank you to zimmerwald1915 for the Gustave avatar.
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2012-06-18, 06:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2011
Re: Skill Rules Absurdities (or, "Do you really want to do that?")
A classic skill check absurdity: seeing the moon requires a spot check of over 100 million.
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2012-06-18, 06:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2008
Re: Skill Rules Absurdities (or, "Do you really want to do that?")
You do not need to make a spot check for something out in the open; plainly visible objects, especially light sources, are automatically seen.
Your required spot check is better for spotting, say, a specific lunar crater from under a forest canopy - something a bit more difficult.SpoilerThank you to zimmerwald1915 for the Gustave avatar.
The full set is here.
Air Raccoon avatar provided by Ceika
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A big thanks to PrinceAquilaDei for the gryphon avatar!
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2012-06-18, 06:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2011
Re: Skill Rules Absurdities (or, "Do you really want to do that?")
Things like:
- How you can grab people who are climbing the same place as you without the need for an action (so even if its out of your turn, and without even needing a reflex save!).
- How you can turn everyone into you best buddies ever with diplomacy. (Hitting a DC of 50 isn't that hard even before epic, epic just makes it not need work at all, and allows you to become a god by converting everyone into fanatics that worship you. Better god for a day per charisma than never god at all)
- How only forgers can spot a forgery (Forgery is a resisted roll by a forgery check), so you can fake the king's seal and the king himself would be none the wiser.
- How you can strip someone naked, in less than 6 seconds? (Sleight of Hand rules). That has a fixed DC 20 to happen, and the oponent gets a spot check to notice you are picking them clean, not to stop you. So even if they see you, you continue your dire work, strip them naked, and just need to run away. (After at most rolling initiative, might want to see about just droping the enemy pants, that might count as entangling them...)
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2012-06-18, 06:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2010
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2012-06-18, 06:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2010
Re: Skill Rules Absurdities (or, "Do you really want to do that?")
Last edited by Eldonauran; 2012-06-18 at 06:58 PM.
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2012-06-18, 06:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2011
Re: Skill Rules Absurdities (or, "Do you really want to do that?")
About spot: Huh, never noticed that clause.
About SoH: The DC 20 check carries a -20 penalty, to be precise, and, well...look up the Lightning Thief/Air Goblin Express stuff on this site.
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2012-06-18, 06:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2011
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Re: Skill Rules Absurdities (or, "Do you really want to do that?")
The moon counts as a colossal+++++++++++++++++... object (rules for larger than colossal objects from draconium) so the bonus from it's spot and penalty for distance largely cancel.
LGBTA+itP
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2012-06-18, 07:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2008
Re: Skill Rules Absurdities (or, "Do you really want to do that?")
If we wish to get all technical and rules-lawyer-y, such penalities only apply to spot checks made to determine distance at the beginning of an encounter. SRD formatting isn't technically RAW-legal, if you want to get down to the nitty-gritty, and the penality is not mentioned anywhere else.
[Edit] You can also say the moon is an object without a dexterity score, and thus automatically fails all dex-based skill checks... such as a hide check. Unless there is something blocking line-of-sight, any spot check result will end up succeeding.
Also, where are you getting the idea that the moon isn't a light source? If you are basing it off the list of light sources, then that would mean the sun isn't a light source either. If you are basing it off common sense, then of course it is.Last edited by erikun; 2012-06-18 at 07:02 PM.
SpoilerThank you to zimmerwald1915 for the Gustave avatar.
The full set is here.
Air Raccoon avatar provided by Ceika
from the Request an OotS Style Avatar thread
A big thanks to PrinceAquilaDei for the gryphon avatar!
original image
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2012-06-18, 07:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2010
Re: Skill Rules Absurdities (or, "Do you really want to do that?")
Avatar by TinyMushroom.
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2012-06-18, 07:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2010
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Re: Skill Rules Absurdities (or, "Do you really want to do that?")
.... I don't know what you're trying to say with the first one, and I know the second is true, but I want to ask about the other one....
1. Forgery is not a trained-only skill. The king himself might not be able to tell the difference, but one of his trained sages or a high int court-wizard might.
2. ... Hoooooow? Yes, you can make sleight of hand checks at DC 40 as a free action, but you can only take 'small objects' from a person, not their clothing or weapons.
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2012-06-18, 07:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2012
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- Northeast USA
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Re: Skill Rules Absurdities (or, "Do you really want to do that?")
Spot checks, they make very little sense with a -1 every 10ft rule. I have a DM who sticks to that pretty close. Longbow has a range increment of 110ft, or a -11 spot check. Who's making that at low level? I have a total of a 14 before roll for spot but things that are 340 ft away are invisible to me if they would normally be a DC 0 to spot.
In real life, I need glasses or contacts to see clearly , but I can still make out people walking along a path at a thousand feet, even if I can't see what they look like.
That's always really bugged me about the system and why I don't use the -1 for every 10 ft rule when I run game.
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2012-06-18, 08:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2007
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- Midwest U.S.
Re: Skill Rules Absurdities (or, "Do you really want to do that?")
My Unitarian Jihad name is Brother Rail Gun of Sweet Reason. Get yours!
Thanks to Cealocanth and PersonalSavior for my avatars!Spoiler
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2012-06-18, 09:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2007
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- Imagination Land
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Re: Skill Rules Absurdities (or, "Do you really want to do that?")
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2012-06-18, 10:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2009
Re: Skill Rules Absurdities (or, "Do you really want to do that?")
As others have mentioned, this seems completely reasonable. I want to add one anecdote to point out that this does make sense from a simulationist perspective, at least.
An elephant can not jump a 5 foot gap. In fact, and elephant can't jump a ONE foot gap. Elephants, it turns out, can't jump at all. They are incapable of getting all their limbs off the ground at the same time.
As for weird skill things, my personal favorite is how large a variance there is in the physical skills. A commoner is running away from a zombie, and tries to make a long jump to clear a pit (as far as he can, because he doesn't know how wide the pit is). He will sometimes jump as far as 20 feet, and sometimes will jump only a single foot. Have you ever tried to jump only 1 foot while running? It's bloody hard!
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2012-06-18, 11:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2007
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- Midwest U.S.
Re: Skill Rules Absurdities (or, "Do you really want to do that?")
My Unitarian Jihad name is Brother Rail Gun of Sweet Reason. Get yours!
Thanks to Cealocanth and PersonalSavior for my avatars!Spoiler
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2012-06-18, 11:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2010
Re: Skill Rules Absurdities (or, "Do you really want to do that?")
By RAW, most farmers won't have enough ranks in Knowledge: Nature to have any idea what those large mooing creatures on their farm are.
Imagine if all real-world conversations were like internet D&D conversations...
Protip: DnD is an incredibly social game played by some of the most socially inept people on the planet - Lev
I read this somewhere and I stick to it: "I would rather play a bad system with my friends than a great system with nobody". - Trevlac
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2012-06-18, 11:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2010
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- San Jose, CA
Re: Skill Rules Absurdities (or, "Do you really want to do that?")
Just remembered my favourite one: Wolves can't survive in the wild
It's a DC 10 Survival check to get along in the wild, +2 for each additional character. A wolf with 4 cubs will have to make a DC 18 Survival check each day. In which she is unlikely to succeed, since wolves only have +1 Survival.
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2012-06-18, 11:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Skill Rules Absurdities (or, "Do you really want to do that?")
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2012-06-19, 01:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2011
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Re: Skill Rules Absurdities (or, "Do you really want to do that?")
Wolves hunt in packs. For the Aid Another bonus. Specifically, both mates hunt for half their litter, 8 mated wolves with four litters and two older wolves that can still hunt means 8 checks with 9 aid anothers each; an average of five of those will work, giving a +10 to the check, which at DC 14 is not all that difficult.
And Now You Know!
The next question is, what about foxes?Projects: Homebrew, Gentlemen's Agreement, DMPCs, Forbidden Knowledge safety, and Top Ten Worst. Also, Quotes and RACSD are good.
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2012-06-19, 05:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2007
Re: Skill Rules Absurdities (or, "Do you really want to do that?")
A survival check isn't the only means of survival in the wild. A wolf can wander around, find something, hunt it and bring it back to its cubs easily enough without using the skill. The skill is there for streamlining.
Likewise, you don't need a Profession skill to earn money in a job. It's there for quickening otherwise boring and mundane parts of the game.
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2012-06-19, 08:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2011
Re: Skill Rules Absurdities (or, "Do you really want to do that?")
Let's not forget about using Knowledge checks to predict the future!
Skill Focus (Speak Language) is more of an odd feat, but is skill related, so may qualify.
Forget farmers not being able to identify their herds - Knowledge (local) being trained only, and not a class skill for many classes, means that your average human may well not be able to identify other humans! This may explain the exceptional quantity of half-human hybrids.
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2012-06-19, 08:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2009
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- Maryland
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Re: Skill Rules Absurdities (or, "Do you really want to do that?")
Survival Check DC 60 - Identify race/kind of creature(s) by tracks.
That's directly from the SRD. That's right, you've got to be epic to go "hmm, that looks like a bear track".
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2012-06-19, 08:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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2012-06-19, 08:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2011
Re: Skill Rules Absurdities (or, "Do you really want to do that?")