Warhammer 40K Tabletop VIII: "You're Gonna have To Face It, You're Addicted To Math"

[Trixie]

Wow, long discussion about statistics fallacies is long -_-

My dice are casino dice, engineered to within 1/10,000 of an inch.

Have you actually measured them, with, say, laser checker?

Or checked the volume of material taken for dots?

You know, the claim might be unsubstantiated before you check that. Plus, I somehow feel there was 'made in China' somewhere on the box in which the dice came :P

2000 lasgun shots, half miss, wounding on 5+ so... 1/3 * 1000 = 333.3, +2 save, so 333.3 * 1/6 = 55.6 unsaved wounds. That's more wounds any squad in the game, through terminator armour and T4. Yay, lasguns.

56 wounds? IG - combine squads, 5x 11 man squad, add a few specialist characters (priest, enginseer, etc.)... Well, not any squad

Though, that's kinda the point of IG in the first place. And I guess they would fare worse than SM against massed fire.

Or, if you want a single unit, 50x recruits + loose change.

I guess Space Wolves could also cheese up to 50+ wounds with their ICs and wargear, but I won't crunch the numbers now.

Which means they only needed 1/5 as many Guardsmen... so, statistically you gib a squad of 10 terminators with 200 lasguns.

What if the Terminators have Feel No Pain, eh? ;P

[Ninja Chocobo]

There have been issues with the 'Relic Blade' because it really, really looks like a Lightning Claw. Which is solved now. Because now it looks like the Wailing Doom.

Captain's Falcon's 'Relic Blade' is a Lightning Claw, whose prongs are about twice as long as the regular kind. It doesn't look like a Lightning Claw at all. It looks like three swords attached to a Fist.

There is a contradiction in the witness' testimony.

It doesn't say in the rules. But, rock up to a tournament. See what happens. Play even on a slightly competitive scale and see how much hate you are given for having Terminators on small bases. Or get laughed at by having Space Hulk Terminators that don't stand up in any sort of terrain...

Dude who runs Lords of Terra has an assortment of models from 2-3e, including 25mm Terminators at some 2/3 their current height. I seen 'em. Only folk who hassle him are folks too young/inexperienced to know that the status quo wasn't always.
Fake edit: Also Potatonaughts on square bases.

I meant 25mm. Shush.

Psst; I am taking the piss.

[Cheesegear]

There is a contradiction in the witness' testimony.

There is and it isn't. Ultimately, even though I didn't intend for it at all, it does look like a Lightning Claw when you see it from 'the tabletop'. Like you're supposed to. When you pick it up and stare at it for a while, you can see it isn't a Lightning Claw.

Meh. I decided it wasn't worth the bother of constantly explaining to people that it's a Relic Blade, not a Lightning Claw. And the Wailing Doom looks better, and pisses off my friend whose Avatar can will never kill Captain Falcon.

Dude who runs Lords of Terra has an assortment of models from 2-3e, including 25mm Terminators at some 2/3 their current height. I seen 'em. Only folk who hassle him are folks too young/inexperienced to know that the status quo wasn't always.

He might run Lords of Terra, but does he play? I mean, I can have whatever models I want - in fact I do. Doesn't actually mean I play with them though. I have plenty of Space Marines and Orks from 2nd Ed. They're smaller, so break LoS rules, so why don't I use them? Because they break LoS rules.

Ultimately, if it was so Universally-great (small Terminators on small bases), why doesn't every single 'veteran' player use them? I've got some myself. And I have had no intention of using them 'as Terminators' for quite some time now.

[lord_khaine]

What if the Terminators have Feel No Pain, eh? ;P

Then you just need double the number of lasguns of course.

Meh. I decided it wasn't worth the bother of constantly explaining to people that it's a Relic Blade, not a Lightning Claw. And the Wailing Doom looks better, and pisses off my friend whose Avatar can will never kill Captain Falcon.

The unfair part here is that CF really doesnt have anything that would look good on the avatar...

[Ninja Chocobo]

He might run Lords of Terra, but does he play?

Well clearly he doesn't play in that tournament, but he sure as hell plays. Why do you think I got to see his army in action?

They're smaller, so break LoS rules, so why don't I use them? Because they break LoS rules.

They don't break LoS rules. That is the size of their model. That is what TLoS means.
(It's also the worst thing to happen to any wargame ever but at least it's pretty clear how it works.)

Ultimately, if it was so Universally-great (small Terminators on small bases), why doesn't every single 'veteran' player use them?

Because new models look far better and are much easier to work with and are often cheaper and are easier to find and are substantially less finite in supply and are easily understood by newer players?

Friend o'mine, he mounted all his flying bases with the very smallest stands. In doing so, he was often not using the actual base supplied with the model, and was breaking more rules than a 40mm Killa Kan.

[Klose_the_Sith]

Well well, ceding an argument I was never going to win anyway and so forth, I'm re-approaching this thread for an entirely different failure

Why do I always end up with 55 excess points as Marines? I upgraded my Librarian to Epistolary and gave melta-bombs to a Sergeant purely because the points had nowhere else to go. Damn you 55 excess points that could be more Sternguard if I had the models. Damn you

(Just felt like letting off steam after finally bringing my 1500 list to actually be 1500 points)

The unfair part here is that CF really doesnt have anything that would look good on the avatar...

His broken, mangled corpse?

Y'know, wear his body as if he's a cursed albatross!

EDIT:

There is a contradiction in the witness' testimony.

Oh man, don't even joke about that. Contradictions in what you've said to authorities is a seriously horrifying matter

[lord_khaine]

His broken, mangled corpse?

Y'know, wear his body as if he's a cursed albatross!

Oh yeah, of course, the Avatar should set Captain Falcon On fire and wear him like a hat.

[EleventhHour]

56 wounds? IG - combine squads, 5x 11 man squad, add a few specialist characters (priest, enginseer, etc.)... Well, not any squad

Though, that's kinda the point of IG in the first place. And I guess they would fare worse than SM against massed fire.

Or, if you want a single unit, 50x recruits + loose change.

I guess Space Wolves could also cheese up to 50+ wounds with their ICs and wargear, but I won't crunch the numbers now.

IG doesn't have T4 or terminator armour...

And... I dunno about Space Wolves.

[Wraith]

I've also come up with a very ballsy list that I wont tell anyone about until I can verify that it works. Which will be in a few days. Expect a Battle Report. It uses two Special Characters. I believe it has a Comp Score of 2, maybe 1.

Give us a hint? Which two Special Characters, for example?

And, don't kid yourself - any list you post is lucky to have Comp Score 2, I fully expect this on to be in negative numbers....

What if the Terminators have Feel No Pain, eh? ;P

Then the numbers stay exactly the same and instead you just wasted a lot of points on something that will never help you. Virtually anything that ignores their 2+ save - AP1 and 2 weapons, Power Weapons and most Monstrous Creatures - also ignores FNP, after all

[Trixie]

Give us a hint? Which two Special Characters, for example?

My guess would be Khan and Shrike :P

Alternatively, Lysander. He always takes Lysander :P

Then the numbers stay exactly the same and instead you just wasted a lot of points on something that will never help you. Virtually anything that ignores their 2+ save - AP1 and 2 weapons, Power Weapons and most Monstrous Creatures - also ignores FNP, after all

Except for volume of attacks. Which is the thing most often postulated against Hammernators

Also, not a lot. BA pay, what, 1-4 points per Termie to get it?

Then you just need double the number of lasguns of course.

Erm, even maximum sized IG army can't fit that many lasgun models on board. You can go max ~360 shots per turn IIRC, you need more than 400 then :P

Oh yeah, of course, the Avatar should set Captain Falcon On Fire and wear him like a hat.

Now I have urge to see this

IG doesn't have T4 or terminator armour...

And... I dunno about Space Wolves.

Let's see - HQ, 4 Lords (12 wounds). To that, we add 8 wolves as wargear (+8 wounds), 15 'Claws in a troop squad (+15), add a 'Guard (+1), then upgrade both to Arjac and Lucas (+2).

Hmmm, 38 wounds. Including all T4-5 models, 5 with 2+ save, 15 with 3+, and a possible ton of S6-10 attacks.

Oh, and a ton of points, too.

I might have missed a few wounds in other ICs and wargear you could add, though. Hmmm.

So, shall we start a competition which Codex can put the most wounds in one squad and who can survive the longest against 216 lasguns fire?

[Arcanoi]

Erm, even maximum sized IG army can't fit that many lasgun models on board. You can go max ~360 shots per turn IIRC, you need more than 400 then :P

Infantry guard usually averages about 10 lasguns per 100 points.

[...]who can survive the longest against 216 lasguns fire?

I'll give you a hint. C'Tan and Wraithlords.

[Trixie]

Infantry guard usually averages about 10 lasguns per 100 points.

So? You can put about 52 lasguns in one slot. 6 troop slots, 310 lasguns. 30 more in elites, 10-15 in HQ...

You run out of slots at 350, much less at 400+ :P

I'll give you a hint. C'Tan and Wraithlords.

Look at my quote:

squad

MC cheating is cheating

And no, before someone brings the other invulnerability exploit, putting them in Lard Raider doesn't count too :P

[EleventhHour]

So, shall we start a competition which Codex can put the most wounds in one squad and who can survive the longest against 216 lasguns fire?

No, no! The ILGS (Imperial LasGun Standard), by counting exactly how many lasguns it would take statistically to completely annhilate a squad!

[Lycan 01]

I think ya'll are forgetting conscripts. You can put over 100 lasguns in each troop slot.

[crazedloon]

you also must remember that all of those troop slots can be rammed together int units which than get ordered to fire 3 times (first rank fire second rank fire) so your simple postulated 310 lasguns shoot over 900 times and thats playing by the numbers if I have ever seen it

[Lycan 01]

Well, lets see. 100 lasguns per troop slot, times 6. 600 lasguns, using First Rank Fire, Second Rank Fire... equals about 1800 shots, give or take a hundred.

Now, you'll have to blow well over 1000 points to get to that amount of flashlighty awesomeness, but still. Its a scary thought.

[DranWork]

My Flatmate came up with a fair decent way of getting rid of SS termies. Squad of 29 choppa boys with a nob and a power claw. Just the amount of wounds they could dish out and the fact that their fearless until they lose 20 models should see them through.

[Cheesegear]

Well, lets see. 100 lasguns per troop slot, times 6. 600 lasguns, using First Rank Fire, Second Rank Fire... equals about 1800 shots, give or take a hundred.

Now, you'll have to blow well over 1000 points to get to that amount of flashlighty awesomeness, but still. Its a scary thought.

You also must use Usarkar Creed as one of your HQs. Or you'll never get the 12 Orders in the first place. And you can't fail any Ld checks. Ever.

You're also spending nearly 3000 points to do it (3070, to be exact). 'Well over 1000' is an understatement. This list also contains no Heavy Weapons, at all. What's that? Mechanised Lists? Give up now. It's not scary at all. Get a couple of AV10 vehicles and you're set for life.

[lord_khaine]

Quote:
squad
MC cheating is cheating

havent you seen the lastest White Dwarf?

Wraithlords are being allowed to form squads of 1-3 members now.

[One Step Two]

havent you seen the lastest White Dwarf?

Wraithlords are being allowed to form squads of 1-3 members now.

What.... WHAT! Need more info please, which white dwarf, what article, what page?

[Oslecamo]

Get a couple of AV10 vehicles and you're set for life.

Not exactly, the guardsmen can still charge and destroy them with their fists grenades!

[Cheesegear]

Not exactly, the guardsmen can still charge and destroy them with their fists grenades!

You're already sitting on 3070 points. You want to pay even more than that to get Grenades? Okay, I guess, get a couple of AV13 Walkers. Ironclads and Defilers will do nicely. So will Wraithlords. In fact, even a Talos will work.

In fact, take a Master of the Forge. Take six Ironclads. Give them all dual Heavy Flamers. Make sure to put all your Troops in Rhinos and sit them at the back of the table all game. Just have your Ironclads run riot.

[lord_khaine]

What.... WHAT! Need more info please, which white dwarf, what article, what page?

Part wishfull thinking, part joke.

It would be really nice if it was true though

[Trixie]

You're also spending nearly 3000 points to do it (3070, to be exact). 'Well over 1000' is an understatement. This list also contains no Heavy Weapons, at all. What's that? Mechanised Lists? Give up now. It's not scary at all. Get a couple of AV10 vehicles and you're set for life.

Too bad this is not the third edition. In it, 1800 lasguns could roll 50 penetrating shots per round even on Land Raiders :P

You're already sitting on 3070 points. You want to pay even more than that to get Grenades? Okay, I guess, get a couple of AV13 Walkers. Ironclads and Defilers will do nicely. So will Wraithlords. In fact, even a Talos will work.

In fact, take a Master of the Forge. Take six Ironclads. Give them all dual Heavy Flamers. Make sure to put all your Troops in Rhinos and sit them at the back of the table all game. Just have your Ironclads run riot.

But... can they kill them fast enough?

Let's say each flamer hits 6 guardsmen per turn. 5 wounds, times 12, means 60 dead. Out of 600. If Dreads are perfectly positioned. Mere 10%. And even this if they don't get a cover save (not against flamers, but other weapons enemy might pack), which they can conjure even on perfectly flat table by placing the units in right way.

You simply can't kill them fast enough, seeing how no game lasts 10 turns.

And, this is not even considering the fact once Dreads will fire, Guardsmen will be in charge range, which they will, seeing how the Dread then will be able to kill what? 1-3 Guardsmen per turn? 6-18 dead when you have 600 is nothing. No matter what the opposing army packs, the Guardsmen can disable shooting by simply running/charging.

Melee? Well, characters with power fists/weapons. Multiple ones in squads with 50+ wounds. Except for SW cheese, no one can bring more than 10-20 wounds in an unit, meaning IG will grind them even with 4:1 loss ratio.

And, when you have 600 models, the enemy can't use mobility, as you can simply cover the entire table with loosely placed models given time

Plus, that army will murder anything relying on Deep Strikes.

Really, if the game is about objectives, Guardsmen can simply claim/contest every single one and the enemy won't be able to hack through them fast enough to get to these claimed by IG ;P

Kill points? Well, good luck trying to kill 55 man squad. Annihilation? As above, but 6 times as hard. And, when the army has the guy giving endless hordes of IG, pretty much impossible

And before someone says Guardsmen can break, don't they have various LD enhancing options (Commissars, for one?) and orders forcing them to regroup (which, given Creed, should be successful pretty much always before they reach the table border)?

EDIT: I checked, IG will never break if they don't want to, they have enough things giving them Stubborn/Fearless to not care about losses if they feel like it.

Part wishfull thinking, part joke.

It would be really nice if it was true though

*WHACK!*

[Lycan 01]

I know paying that many points for that many Guardsmen is just right out. I was just saying that the options exist. And besides, I shudder to think of the time and money needed to even build such an army...

[MountainKing]

Last night I caught a guy trolling on Vassal. He was pretending to be a newbie who thought that Wraithlords weren't "that bad". So I challenged him to switch lists with me; I'd play his triple Wraithlord list, he'd play with my Boyz. It was funny how quickly he logged out.

EDIT: Italics are to emphasize how dumb I am. >_> Nothing to see here.

[hamishspence]

Too bad this is not the third edition. In it, 1800 lasguns could roll 50 penetrating shots per round even on Land Raiders :P

In 3rd ed? How, exactly? Str 3 vs AV14 cannot normally get penetrating hits.

[Trixie]

In 3rd ed? How, exactly? Str 3 vs AV14 cannot normally get penetrating hits.

Didn't they have a rule that if you roll 6 to hit then 6 to penetrate it was a success regardless of AV?

I remember something like this from brief period I read 3rd Ed book.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Didn't they have a rule that if you roll 6 to hit then 6 to penetrate it was a success regardless of AV?

I remember something like this from brief period I read 3rd Ed book.

No.

The Imperial Guard Armoured Company list had a special rule that said if you rolled a 6 to penetrate but still failed, you could get a glancing hit if you rolled a second 6.

This rule only applied to one varient army list.

[Cheesegear]

But... can they kill them fast enough?

But they don't need to.

The game is objective-based? Get your Ironclads onto the objective. Contest everything.

The game is Annihilation? You win.

And, this is not even considering the fact once Dreads will fire, Guardsmen will be in charge range, which they will, seeing how the Dread then will be able to kill what? 1-3 Guardsmen per turn? 6-18 dead when you have 600 is nothing. No matter what the opposing army packs, the Guardsmen can disable shooting by simply running/charging.

The Ironclads will always win combat. Guardsmen leadership sucks. Break. Remember, once under half strength, you can't regroup. Unless you dish out an Order. But you still need to pass that Leadership check.

Melee? Well, characters with power fists/weapons. Multiple ones in squads with 50+ wounds.

You're changing the list again. And if you're doing that with Guard, you're doing it wrong.

Plus, that army will murder anything relying on Deep Strikes.

Ironclads. Or just not Deep Strike. Or Deep Strike somewhere in your own Deployment Zone.

EDIT: I checked, IG will never break if they don't want to, they have enough things giving them Stubborn/Fearless to not care about losses if they feel like it.

You're changing the list again.

The list is;
Creed and Command
Command
(x6) Infantry Platoon; x5 Infantry Squads (Combined), x50 Conscripts
3070 Points

...Creed was not originally in the list, but, if you want to dish out x12 FRF!SRF! Orders per turn - like the exercise that we're doing - then he needs to be there.

Once you start adding things, you're not only breaking the exercise. As everyone knows Schrodinger's List can beat everything. But, you're adding more points to it. And, at 3070, you're already top-ending the game as it is.