If it has stats... (Challenge to the playground)

[Gemini476]

Belial_the_Leveler: What is a [Cs] ability? I don't think it would be from Complete Scoundrel, but Innate, [Ex], [Su], and [Sp] are the only types of abilities in 3.5.

Technically the only types are Natural (usually untyped, defined as "everything that isn't one of the other types", includes stuff like a bird's flight speed), (Ex)traordinary, (Su)pernatural, (Sp)ell-like, and (Ps)i-like.

"Innate" is an over-type that covers anything that's, well, innate to the race in question. IIRC. Special abilities are always (Ex), (Su), (Sp), or (Ps).

[rweird]

Technically the only types are Natural (usually untyped, defined as "everything that isn't one of the other types", includes stuff like a bird's flight speed), (Ex)traordinary, (Su)pernatural, (Sp)ell-like, and (Ps)i-like.

"Innate" is an over-type that covers anything that's, well, innate to the race in question. IIRC. Special abilities are always (Ex), (Su), (Sp), or (Ps).

I forgot (Ps), and confused the terminology of natural and innate. Thank you for the correction.

[Chronos]

Psi-like abilities are actually a subset of spell-like abilities. And the rules may or may not acknowledge the existence of natural abilities: In some places, they say that all abilities are (Ex), (Su), or (Sp).

[Gemini476]

Psi-like abilities are actually a subset of spell-like abilities. And the rules may or may not acknowledge the existence of natural abilities: In some places, they say that all abilities are (Ex), (Su), or (Sp).

I thought that they said that all special abilities are (Ex), (Su), or (Sp), with anything that's not in one of those categories being (Na)?

Which means that no special abilities are natural abilities, naturally. But there are quite a few things that aren't under the Special Abilities umbrella. Although a lot of those are also (Ex), (Su), or (Sp).

A bird flying is a natural ability, from what I recall. Presumably the same goes for a shark breathing water or a human walking.

[Yanisa]

Psi-like abilities are actually a subset of spell-like abilities. And the rules may or may not acknowledge the existence of natural abilities: In some places, they say that all abilities are (Ex), (Su), or (Sp).

From the SRD

Natural Abilities

This category includes abilities a creature has because of its physical nature. Natural abilities are those not otherwise designated as extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like.

I am pretty sure the rules acknowledge natural abilities.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

What is a [Cs] ability? Innate, [Ex], [Su], and [Sp] are the only types of abilities in 3.5.

There's also divine/cosmic abilities. But in this case, we're talking about a creature with abilities that are entirely made up. My example ability on what it could have is essentially saying "this is a [Cs] ability specifically so it doesn't fall under the rules of [Ex], [Sp], [Ps] or [Su] abilities"

The effects being arbitrary to begin with, it doesn't have to be a normal ability type. After all, if it were extraordinary, insubstantial would have prevented it and if it were anything else, magic immunity or AMF would have stopped it.

[Anthrowhale]

The Illithid Savant fails to mimic its form.

Oops, this illithid forgot about the 'physical' clause for alter form. I'll use a slightly more intelligent and paranoid illithid (below).

IHS fails to remove this condition.

This I don't understand. IHS works on an 'effect or other condition with 1 or more rounds' and always works. '1 or more rounds' seems to surely be satisfied. Can we assume that all the experiments required to determine your exact interpretation of the scope of 'effect' or 'other condition'? How exactly are you defining things?

Your character still takes (ability loss)/(damage).

This appears forbidden. Keeper Immunities grant: "... not subject to subdual damage, ability damage, ability drain, energy drain" paired with Tarrasque regeneration provides immunity to all ability loss & damage. Is something missing from the sequence?

Edit: ignore Spawn 3. Go to Spawn 4.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

This I don't understand. IHS works on an 'effect or other condition with 1 or more rounds' and always works.

1) It doesn't work on instantaneous effects - those don't have a duration. So it wouldn't work on things like Flesh to Stone, energy drain, ability damage or plain damage, death, dispelling or disjunction. It also doesn't work on effects that aren't on you specifically - it couldn't end a Reverse Gravity effect or the normal planar traits of a plane because those effects are area effects rather than being cast on you. Sure, you could instantly end their effect on you momentarily but as you're still within their AoE, the effect would return as soon as the IHS was resolved.

2) It only "always works" if some other wording doesn't prevent it. For example, if some effect had the wording "this effect cannot be removed" or "this effect can only be removed by X", then Iron Heart Surge could not remove it. As this is a custom ability of a custom enemy, it can have whatever wording the DM wants, including one that makes it impossible to remove.

[Sith_Happens]

As this is a custom ability of a custom enemy, it can have whatever wording the DM wants, including one that makes it impossible to remove.

We don't know that. In fact, in the OP the creature is stated to be almost entirely RAW-legit.

Hoo boy. This just changed from a game of D&D to a game of Achron. Let's test some causality.

...Though Full-Throttle Time Shenanigans^TM are still probably the key to beating it. Specifically, I wanted to point out that for some strange reason no one's used a fast-time demiplane yet.

[Gemini476]

...Though Full-Throttle Time Shenanigans^TM are still probably the key to beating it. Specifically, I wanted to point out that for some strange reason no one's used a fast-time demiplane yet.

Wouldn't a timeless plane be better? That would stop an ability that occurs in 1d4+1 turns indefinitely, right?

[Heliomance]

We don't know that. In fact, in the OP the creature is stated to be almost entirely RAW-legit.



...Though Full-Throttle Time Shenanigans^TM are still probably the key to beating it. Specifically, I wanted to point out that for some strange reason no one's used a fast-time demiplane yet.

Fairly sure people have used Empowered Time Stops or something similar, and been killed in the middle of the time stop anyway.

[rweird]

There's also divine/cosmic abilities. But in this case, we're talking about a creature with abilities that are entirely made up. My example ability on what it could have is essentially saying "this is a [Cs] ability specifically so it doesn't fall under the rules of [Ex], [Sp], [Ps] or [Su] abilities"

The effects being arbitrary to begin with, it doesn't have to be a normal ability type. After all, if it were extraordinary, insubstantial would have prevented it and if it were anything else, magic immunity or AMF would have stopped it.

I believe natural would be appropriate for that, as it can't be removed, like a fighter's bonus feats. I was under the impression besides construct+regeneration, it was RAW legit, and we were playing against a hidden opponent. When I realized it was killing everything 1d4+1 rounds, I assumed that was the gimmick of the challenge, that you have 1d4+1 (5) rounds to do it, and proposed the timeless body example to see if that were the case.

I suppose it isn't.

How would my attempt go differently if I came from the future via Teleport Through Time or from the Far Realms or something to make it so my past cannot be undermined without the intent to kill this creature, or knowledge of it when I travel hence?

[Belial_the_Leveler]

If it was killing everything 1d4+1 rounds after they become aware of it, you simply travel backwards so the 1d4+1 rounds don't pass. This has the extra effect that it can't undermine your past as you don't have a past either. Also, you come from the future. In the future, a diary/thought bottle/wikipedia entry of "how I killed this thing" exists. So knowing how it can be killed, you travel back to the past and kill it. (essentially you force the DM to tell you how to kill it if at all possible, since you come from the future and would know how it was killed in the past.)


Alternatively:

1) Wish for a scroll of improvisation of arbitrarily high CL.
2) Make an arbitrarily high knowledge check using the scroll, thus learning everything about it.
3) Kill it. Since you know all info about it and it can be killed and you are allowed whatever wealth...
4) Even if you can't kill it for some reason, you can now transmit the knowledge via various means to the next attempt.

[The Glyphstone]

It is reportedly able to strip people of their class features - can't be through negative levels, which don't work that way. Working out how it is removing levels and/or class abilities, by RAW, may go a long way towards figuring out its attack pattern.

[Anthrowhale]

1) It doesn't work on instantaneous effects

It can't be this, because spawn 2 denied it all actions via the AMF trap.

you could instantly end their effect on you momentarily but as you're still within their AoE, the effect would return as soon as the IHS was resolved.

I don't believe there are any AoE:all-planes effects. Maybe one was made up for this challenge.

2) It only "always works" if some other wording doesn't prevent it.

It is possible that there is an exception clause, but I still would like to know what set of exceptions to IHS are for our RAW interpreter. Is it just {<1 round, Continuing AoE, specific wording}? Or something else?

[Gemini476]

It is reportedly able to strip people of their class features - can't be through negative levels, which don't work that way. Working out how it is removing levels and/or class abilities, by RAW, may go a long way towards figuring out its attack pattern.

Well, Ability Rip gets rid of supernatural abilities. Trait Removal removes (Ex) and (Su). Spurn the Supernatural suppresses (Su) abilities.

An arbitrary amount of actions combined with some kind of ranged interplanar at-will Trait Removal would strip the target of everything that isn't a natural or spell-like ability - although it would also fail against an Initiate of Mystra or just anyone in an antimagic field to be honest since Trait Removal would be suppressed.

I'm not entirely sure how you'd get rid of spell-like abilities, though - Spellthief could work for ones with limited use, but requires both Sneak Attack and for the target to be willing. At-will, though? I have no clue.

[rweird]

If it was killing everything 1d4+1 rounds after they become aware of it, you simply travel backwards so the 1d4+1 rounds don't pass. This has the extra effect that it can't undermine your past as you don't have a past either. Also, you come from the future. In the future, a diary/thought bottle/wikipedia entry of "how I killed this thing" exists. So knowing how it can be killed, you travel back to the past and kill it. (essentially you force the DM to tell you how to kill it if at all possible, since you come from the future and would know how it was killed in the past.)


Alternatively:

1) Wish for a scroll of improvisation of arbitrarily high CL.
2) Make an arbitrarily high knowledge check using the scroll, thus learning everything about it.
3) Kill it. Since you know all info about it and it can be killed and you are allowed whatever wealth...
4) Even if you can't kill it for some reason, you can now transmit the knowledge via various means to the next attempt.

Do you actually know the stats, or are you just throwing weird fiat abilities out in this thread for no reason, which the OP said wouldn't exist (as the creature is RAW-legal, if custom, save for regeneration) meaning [Cs] abilities are out. I am unsure what you are talking about with this Doomsday Protocol ability and this ensuing discussion of how to kill it.

Still, step 1 wouldn't work as this thread ruled CL>20 items are epic level items and not eligible to be wish-crafted.

Also, I think you are limited to 20th level WBL, and it will kill you 5 rounds after you do something to trigger the kill timer (intending to destroy it counts) so assuming your method of killing it takes over 5 rounds, tough luck.

Lastly, how do you travel backwards in time?

Gemini476: It is probably a fiat ability, as I'm pretty sure it removes class abilities as well (such as spellcasting, I don't know if exactly what abilities ever were specified).

[Hecuba]

It is reportedly able to strip people of their class features - can't be through negative levels, which don't work that way. Working out how it is removing levels and/or class abilities, by RAW, may go a long way towards figuring out its attack pattern.

It's also removing feat-granted EX abilities.
The removal does not offer a fort save and spell resistance does not apply.
It is not a necromancy effect, a death effect, or a mind-affecting effect.

Well, Ability Rip gets rid of supernatural abilities. Trait Removal removes (Ex) and (Su). Spurn the Supernatural suppresses (Su) abilities.

Trait Removal would have failed against my last entry: both because she was a construction and because it's an SR:yes spell (and she had immunity to those a-la half-golem).
It still took out her EX regeneration.

Edit: Mind you, I screwed up on that entry. Having her fail the will Save and become a construct removes the regeneration. But passing the will save and working in Bone Knight 4 would get the same result.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Do you actually know the stats, or are you just throwing weird fiat abilities out in this thread for no reason, which the OP said wouldn't exist (as the creature is RAW-legal, if custom, save for regeneration) meaning [Cs] abilities are out. I am unsure what you are talking about with this Doomsday Protocol ability and this ensuing discussion of how to kill it.

1) I don't know the stats.

2) I also don't know of any non-custom, non-cosmic/divine abilities that can kill anyone within a time-stop from further than 300 feet away, or reach across planar boundaries and don't need line of effect, or strip class abilities without allowing a saving throw, or work on an antimagicked incorporeal target that avoided the wink-out clause, or can be used on people before the battle begins, or allow a creature to be aware of the actions of another in detail before ever meeting them.
Even the Pun-Pun specifically relies on manipulate form giving you custom abilities to do some of the weirder stuff.



Ergo, while I don't know the stats I am certain it has custom abilities beyond simply its regeneration.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Yes, right after achieving Thrallherd 10. Mindblank doesn't negate it. When would you cast Fission? After/while being attacked by your thralls?

On another plane: Yes, your two minds would become hostile toward each other (in a strange application of that ability that I hadn't thought of before), so you'd have that as a warning. It would probably make taking other actions impossible though, like the way a confused character who is attacked has to attack their attacker. After becoming hostile, the schism stops being targetted but the character does not and the schism is still hostile towards the character.

Hmmm, probably wouldn't prevent either from taking actions, since the two minds act completely independently of one another. I wasn't certain that a Schism could be targeted independently of its manifester, in which case, would it still become hostile? Either way, I can make it work without using Schism, so...

Let's run it again (if you don't mind) but instead of using Schism, with Jersey on a different plane from his thralls, let it be that Jersey manifests Foresight (or already has it up). If this warns him of his impending doom, on his next action, let him manifest Affinity Field, then, as a swift action, activate his Belt of Battle to get a free standard action. On this standard action, let him manifest a Twinned augmented Synchronicity. Then...

Spoiler

Show

On his first Synchronicity standard, he manifests Fission, on his second, he manifests an augmented Synchronicity. His Fission then uses his Synchronicity standard action to manifest an augmented Synchronicity. This lets Jersey manifest whatever standard action buffs/other spells/powers he cares to because he's established the Mad Minute. Does his Fission become hostile? If not, if he were to Teleport/Wish transport himself (and his Fission) to his thralls, would they be hostile when he got there? Would that change if they had Mind Blank up? If they're hostile in either case, then let us assume they do not have Mind Blank active. Jersey and his Fission Teleport to the thralls but keep the thralls out of the Affinity Field - Jersey then (since the loop is established and he should have plenty of power points left before he has to worry about recharging) attempts to use Bend Reality (or Reality Revision (or any of the greater reality benders), if Bend Reality is not sufficient) to get the thralls back to being Helpful (or whatever degree of Attitude/loyalty they had before they were made hostile, as long as this is sufficient to get them to help Jersey and not attack him). Does that work? If so, he then brings them into the Affinity Field, the proper Sieging Psionic Dreadnought (with recharge) is established, and we're back to the question of can the target interrupt the action loop? Too, we'd need to answer whether or not Enervation hits (even if only on a natural twenty)? If it does not interrupt the action loop but Enervation does not hit, then Jersey will Greater Metamorphosis/Shapechange/whatever spell or power is most efficient for gaining the form and Su: abilities of a Shadow Dragon, and on his next standard action, uses its breath weapon. If the target does not have evasion, then it takes some negative levels. Jersey then uses his next standard action to dispell (or dismiss) the Greater Metamorphosis/Shapechange/whatever. On his next standard, he repeats the process, turning back into a Shadow Dragon. The cycle then continues until the thing is dead.

So, what happens?

This is assuming that his Fission does not become hostile as soon as it is manifested (since the action loop is established in the same round as Fission is manifested, during Jersey's turn), given that a Fission "thinks and acts exactly as [the manifester does] and follows [their] orders, although it will not do anything [the manifester] wouldn’t do [themselves]," and assuming that the ability is not an immediate action or otherwise able to be taken out of turn. If said ability can be used as an immediate action (or otherwise out of turn), then let it be assumed that Jersey takes his Synchronicity Action (the second one, manifested off of the previous twinned Synchronicity) before his Fission. In such a case, he manifests Bend Reality (or Reality Revision etc.) to un-hostile his Fission, and then proceeds as the above.

So, in this further refined case, what happens?

[rockdeworld]

I don't have time to read all the other posts just yet, but these caught my eye and I wanted to clarify.

We don't know that. In fact, in the OP the creature is stated to be almost entirely RAW-legit.

This creature (and most of its abilities) are as made-up as the Stuffy Doll. They don't override other RAW (so no re-defining hp, targeting, condition, etc). One of its abilities gives it regeneration despite being a construct. Another might enhance its incorporeality (which has the effects you've seen).

This I don't understand. IHS works on an 'effect or other condition with 1 or more rounds' and always works. '1 or more rounds' seems to surely be satisfied. Can we assume that all the experiments required to determine your exact interpretation of the scope of 'effect' or 'other condition'? How exactly are you defining things?

That sounds fair. This ability doesn't cause a condition (Ability Damaged/Ability Drained/etc) but does cause something defined in the rules, which leads to (ability loss)/(damage)/(death). If you're going with the "IHS the universe" definition of condition, it fails against this ability in particular because of something in the ability.

Does that help?

[rweird]

1) I don't know the stats.

2) I also don't know of any non-custom, non-cosmic/divine abilities that can kill anyone within a time-stop from further than 300 feet away, or reach across planar boundaries and don't need line of effect, or strip class abilities without allowing a saving throw, or work on an antimagicked incorporeal target that avoided the wink-out clause, or can be used on people before the battle begins, or allow a creature to be aware of the actions of another in detail before ever meeting them.
Even the Pun-Pun specifically relies on manipulate form giving you custom abilities to do some of the weirder stuff.

Ergo, while I don't know the stats I am certain it has custom abilities beyond simply its regeneration.

Okay, I don't see why that leads to you making up abilities and giving them to the creature, but go ahead I guess.

I also am certain it has custom abilities, but I would think they'd fall in the rules (Ex, Su, Sp, Ps, natural), rather than being a nonexistent type of ability. I think it has some fiat-kill thing, but I think that is an Ex or natural ability, or if it is an Su ability, it would fail in an AMF or whatever. Why it doesn't wink out in an AMF is probably because it isn't an undead (as AMF specifically calls out undead and summoned creatures as winking out, but as a construct, it wouldn't). For killing someone in a time stop, there are plenty of ways. Passive abilities that don't require activation (auras) can hit people in time stops. Still, the kill ability is undoubtedly custom.

I don't believe cosmic abilities are a thing in official rules (if you are talking about IHB, thats another story). I don't know of any abilities that remove class features directly, save or no save.

Portfolio Sense allows you to learn of stuff like this creature seems to (but to a greater extent).

[rockdeworld]

More clarity:

I also am certain it has custom abilities, but I would think they'd fall in the rules (Ex, Su, Sp, Ps, natural), rather than being a nonexistent type of ability.

They do.

I think it has some fiat-kill thing, but I think that is an Ex or natural ability, or if it is an Su ability, it would fail in an AMF or whatever.

Correct.

Why it doesn't wink out in an AMF

You might've missed the response where it did exactly that.

Still, the kill ability is undoubtedly custom.

It is.

I don't know of any abilities that remove class features directly, save or no save.

Most class abilities are (Ex) or (Su) (and the bad ones are Sp), so 2x Twin Split-ray Ocular Limited Wish (replicating Trait removal, and firing one from each eye) could remove 8 class abilities (for 8 Fort saves, and only against living creatures that can be sneak-attacked). This is different, naturally.

[Anthrowhale]

That sounds fair. This ability doesn't cause a condition (Ability Damaged/Ability Drained/etc) but does cause something defined in the rules, which leads to (ability loss)/(damage)/(death). If you're going with the "IHS the universe" definition of condition, it fails against this ability in particular because of something in the ability.

It seems like you are concentrating on the 'condition' clause rather than the effects clause which I was expecting to catch this. Let me elide unnecessary parts for emphasis:

... select one ... effect ... currently affecting you ... . That effect ends immediately.

Is it not an 'effect'? For example, IHS should work against against the secondary damage of all poisons since these are poisonous effects. Agreed? The word 'effect' is used in a plain english way throughout the rules to describe intervention on the default state.

It's hard for me to understand the monster [whatever it is] as not causing some intervention on the default state of a character, so I don't understand how IHS can be inapplicable. Maybe this is some multiplanar-no-line-of-effect thing which reasserts the effect immediately after it is ended? But then, maybe the clock restarts, which would be observable? Maybe there is some specific clause in the effect which overrides the effect of IHS itself? But this is iffy because you must argue that the effect is more special than IHS. Or maybe you are interpreting IHS in some other way?

[rockdeworld]

Is it not an 'effect'? <snip>

Like I said, IHS doesn't fail because it's not applicable, IHS fails against this ability in particular because of something in the ability [negates the effect of IHS].

[Segev]

Hm. What about utilizing the "save point trick" (involves a psi crystal, quintessence, and a dream spell that lets you reset back to the moment before the spell was cast) and Teleport Through Time? Every time something fails to work or tries to unmake your save point, you teleport back to the point where that event occurred and prevent it.

I think we're into Homestuck territory here, though.

[Heliomance]

Hm. What about utilizing the "save point trick" (involves a psi crystal, quintessence, and a dream spell that lets you reset back to the moment before the spell was cast) and Teleport Through Time? Every time something fails to work or tries to unmake your save point, you teleport back to the point where that event occurred and prevent it.

I think we're into Homestuck territory here, though.

I already tried that one if you want to look back through the thread.don't remember what the result was though, and I'm on a phone atm so I'm not going to look now.

[rockdeworld]

OldTrees1 fishing: Round 1 doesn't start after ECL 20 worth of XP, it starts after your challenger "enters the ring" - it can be ECL 20 or whatever.
A, B, C: (ability loss)/(damage) before getting the ability to cast Persistent Foresight.
D: succeeds (in his plan)
E: Well spot's not a class skill for wizards so your character never finds the picture and Kidding. Teleport through time doesn't allow you to travel into the future, and your character's actions don't change that, so nothing happens to the past self (but the one that traveled into the past takes (ability loss)/(damage).
F: Same as D
G: Same as E
I should probably point out that a Sphere of Annihilation is 2 feet in diameter and destroys anything it contacts, including spell component pouches. Use at your own risk.

Obviously, this makes it impossible for mortals to normally defeat them.

That's sortof the point, but my creature doesn't have that powerful of an ability. It sounds interesting though. For a more T0 ability, I might redo it like this:
Doomsday Protocol [Ex]
Whenever [insert entity name] is killed, they gain the benefit of Breath of Life (CL 20), Iron Heart Surge (ML 20), and Twinned Time Regression (ML 20).

There's probably a build that can have all 3 of those as contingencies too (Craft Contingent Spell + RKV?). It could get stuck in a death loop though, which would be sad.

Kardar233's Illithid:
*strokes chin*
Hmmm, I like the way you think.
If the second paragraph (starting with "there exists") happens, he takes (ability loss)/(damage) 5 rounds after creation (presumably before he can eat anything).
So let's ignore that and assuming the Illithid has always gained power from the bottle, and was always created by the first illithid. This is a powerful wish and results in a sickly illithid with Con 0 - dead, as if it were an object created by a true creation spell.

rweird: Yes, you can definitely craft magic items with metamagic (and reducers, using the rules you cited), but Craft Contingent Spell doesn't craft a magic item and doesn't reference magic item creation rules, so that rule doesn't apply.
Your character wouldn't know why it fails. Foresight wouldn't warn of that, since it's not "impending danger or harm". You can certainly try other spells (Timeless Body would've worked, for instance, except that AFAIK you can't use Wish to duplicate 9th-level powers).

[Jormengand]

I assume it's most likely not killable by any kind of hit point damage, but otherwise I wave the staff of instant death at it.

Spoiler: The Staff of Instant Death

Show

The Staff of Instant Death is a normal, nonmagical quarterstaff with four small cubes attached to the end, each with a hole in. The moment a true neutral creature with ranks in spellcraft touches the staff, each of the four cubes launches a fifteen-foot cone of energy from the hole. Any creature who enters the fifteen-foot cone keeps taking 1d4 damage of each of fire, acid, cold, and electricity, continuously and without end, until the staff is taken away.

Faint evocation; CL 1st; Craft Wondrous Item and Energy Substitution; Burning Hands; Price 3900 GP.

Otherwise, I use the Ring of Constant Wishes (Continuous Wish effect) and then copy every spell effect in the entire game until I find one that will actually kill the damn thing.

[OldTrees1]

OldTrees1 fishing: Round 1 doesn't start after ECL 20 worth of XP, it starts after your challenger "enters the ring" - it can be ECL 20 or whatever.
A, B, C: (ability loss)/(damage) before getting the ability to cast Persistent Foresight.

So I can conclude that the entity time travels? Earlier challengers were able to "enter the ring" with persisted foresight and a spell component pouch. D was a current example of such a challenger.

Since the time travel happened for A, B and C but not for D, I have to assume the use of the artifact from the pouch caused the time travel ability to trigger.