Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXX: Imperium After Dark

[Cheesegear]

Militarum Tempestus Command - 64 Points / 3 Power Points (including wargear)
Plasma Gun x4

Yeah. PR3 my arse. It's things like this that make me think that maybe Power Rating doesn't include wargear, and only takes into account statblocks and abilities.
It's also things like this that make me wonder if GW botched the Power Rating, too, as well as points costs.

[Gauntlet]

Yeah. PR3 my arse. It's things like this that make me think that maybe Power Rating doesn't include wargear, and only takes into account statblocks and abilities.
It's also things like this that make me wonder if GW botched the Power Rating, too, as well as points costs.

It still holds to 1PR being somewhere between 18 and 22 points, though. It's just that some stuff (see above) is undercosted in points, as well.

[Brookshw]

Did all legion of the damned forces previously have a 3++?

[DataNinja]

Did all legion of the damned forces previously have a 3++?

I believe so, unless they changed it in the last set of changes before 8th, and I didn't notice.

[Blackhawk748]

Yeah. PR3 my arse. It's things like this that make me think that maybe Power Rating doesn't include wargear, and only takes into account statblocks and abilities.
It's also things like this that make me wonder if GW botched the Power Rating, too, as well as points costs.

Oh god ya, the Scions Command is one of the most damaging (and mobile) units around now. And they are dirt freaking cheap.

As to the Power Fist thing, firstly i am upset that Chaos gets their Power Fist cheaper than we Orks get our Klaw (ours is still 25) and we Orks have more or less realized that the Big Choppa or the Powa Choppa are just better, point for point, than the Klaw. Mostly cuz the majority of what can take a Klaw can take a Saw, and the Saw is just flat out better.

[Brookshw]

Mostly cuz the majority of what can take a Klaw can take a Saw, and the Saw is just flat out better.

Now when you klaw a wolf paw
Or a prickly nicassar
And you prick a raw klaw
Next time beware
Don't klaw the prickly nicassar by the klaw
When you pick a 'sar
Try to use the saw
But you don't need to use the saw
When you pick a pear of the big nicassar
Have I given you a clue?

The orky necessities of life will come to you
They'll come to you!

[Blackhawk748]

Now when you klaw a wolf paw
Or a prickly nicassar
And you prick a raw klaw
Next time beware
Don't klaw the prickly nicassar by the klaw
When you pick a 'sar
Try to use the saw
But you don't need to use the saw
When you pick a pear of the big nicassar
Have I given you a clue?

The orky necessities of life will come to you
They'll come to you!

I dont know if this is the dumbest or greatest thing i have ever read.

[Brookshw]

I dont know if this is the dumbest or greatest thing i have ever read.

Dumbest I'm sure There's an unfortunate lack of rhyming words for saw among the flora and fauna of 40k (I guess there's maw-claw from the nids...)

[Requizen]

I believe so, unless they changed it in the last set of changes before 8th, and I didn't notice.

Hm, neat. How are the pointed? Now having reliable Deep Strike and still retaining all their best rules might make LotD a pretty serious choice for a SM player or Imperium in general.

[Cheesegear]

Let's try this again...

Space Marines
Mean Power Level: 7.57 ± 4.18 (3.39 - 11.75)
Mean Points/Power: 17.02 ± 3.24 (13.78 - 20.26)<sup>1

1</sup> Basic wargear only.

Outliers - Requires playtesting and/or further analysis

Spoiler: Overcosted?

Show

Apothecary on Bike
Stalker
Whirlwind
Contemptor Dreadnought
Drop Pod - That's a good thing, right?
Honour Guard - Potentially the worst unit in the Index! Being both 'underpowered' and overcosted. More likely, requires some sort of massive combo with other units.
Inceptor Squads

Spoiler: Undercosted?

Show

Company Veterans*
Scout Squad
Devastator Squad*
Vanguard Veteran Squad*
Vanguard Veteran Squad with Jump Packs*
Bike Squad
Company Veterans on Bikes*
Assault Squad
Tactical Squad
Assault Squad with Jump Packs
Sternguard Veteran Squad*

* These units are extremely customisable, their undercosted-ness is likely due to the fact that they're meant to come with a ****-ton of extra wargear.
- Are these units still good without extra wargear? - Sternguard certainly are.
- Do these units 'fall in line' when given the extra wargear?

If using Black Templars, always bring Cenobyte Servitors.

Spoiler: 'Good' Units

Show

These units are 'above the curve' Power-wise, but they are costed appropriately so it should be fine to build good, solid, 'Theme' lists around these units and no-one can get made at you.

Hellblasters - Of course they are! Perhaps the best unit in the Index!
All kinds of Terminator units
Both Centurion units
All Land Raiders

Marneus Calgar (both versions), Roboute Guilliman, Terminus Ultra.

Now that I've actually looked into it semi-properly (counting wargear), it feels like base wargear only is factored into Power Rating.
If you want to actually give your **** upgrades and 'proper stuff', then you should be using points.

This is immediately recognisable as GW's 'Out of the Box' Power Ratings being designed for casuals. While 'points' and 'customisation' is for grognards and neckbeards who want to throw bricks at each other. It seems obvious when you say it out loud. Because...You know...That's what GW actually told us that they were for. But it's good to know that what they intended almost seems like what they...Actually did.

Will update when I know more (i.e; When I've done more than one Faction).

[boomwolf]

Actually, power level assumes middle wargear. some gear, but not decked out with the best stuff.


Also, not sure the Hellblasters are THAT good.
Sure, tis a good gun. but they cost 38 a piece, and that aint cheap. in fact, that's a devestator packing a lascannon.

Sure, the hellblaster got twice the wounds-but lascannon compared to incinirator...

[Gauntlet]

I think the big problem with Hellblasters is that they don't have any way of getting mobility short of just running around. They can't embark on transports, including drop pods, because they have the Primaris tag, so you're going to be durdling around moving 6" a turn. Being lots of points, you also lose a lot of points whenever you roll a 1, and because every model in the unit has a Hellblaster you don't have any ablative wounds on models you can take off before you start losing offensive output.

I think Hellblasters will be a lot better when the new transport comes out - if nothing else it will give them 3" extra movement from the disembark on turn one, and give them some extra durability.

[Cheesegear]

Actually, power level assumes middle wargear. some gear, but not decked out with the best stuff.

Sauce?
What is 'middle' wargear? Who decides what that is?

Heavy Weapon Squads and MT Commands are not PR3 once upgraded. Neither are Servitors.
If Sternguard are all kitted with Combi-Plasmas and -Meltas, they're effectively better Hellblasters. There's no way that Sternguard are PR7 with Combi-Weapons. That's what points are for.

Sure, the hellblaster got twice the wounds-but lascannon compared to incinirator...

Hellblaster has 2 shots and doesn't take -ves when it moves - which should be all the time because Maelstrom.
Excess Wounds from the Lascannons don't carry over to the next models. So what's the point?
How many Land Raiders are you really dealing with on a regular basis?
2 Wounds per model actually is a big deal.
It's not like you're taking Hellblasters in a vacuum - Hellblasters can deal with most things. For everything else, there's the rest of your army.

The Primaris Grav Tank Repulsor is coming.

[Gauntlet]

Sauce?
What is 'middle' wargear? Who decides what that is?

Heavy Weapon Squads and MT Commands are not PR3 once upgraded. Neither are Servitors.
If Sternguard are all kitted with Combi-Plasmas and -Meltas, they're effectively better Hellblasters. There's no way that Sternguard are PR7 with Combi-Weapons. That's what points are for.

I think 'middle' wargear is something along the lines of 'what you get in the boxed kit'.

[boomwolf]

Or, take the average between a bare-bones version and a tooled-up no-points-spared version.

Sauce is GW themselves, but can't remember exactly where they said it, so I can't link you.

[Blackhawk748]

I think 'middle' wargear is something along the lines of 'what you get in the boxed kit'.

Which is everything, good or bad, its just usually one of each (which is really annoying)

[Cheesegear]

I think 'middle' wargear is something along the lines of 'what you get in the boxed kit'.

Or, take the average between a bare-bones version and a tooled-up no-points-spared version.

Which is entirely subjective, based on what your opponent is.

A naked Devastator Squad is 65 Points, and PR7. You have ~120 Points (185 Points) for that PR to make sense. Now, even if you were to take all 4 Grav-Cannons and the baby, that comes to a total of 182. That's the most expensive wargear you could give them, and it barely hits the curve. Does GW think I want to upgrade the Sergeant? Well, I'm not doing that. But, if you take less than the Grav-Cannon, you're paying less points, meaning that the 'curve' GW made of points-to-power, is now wrecked.

Are Devastators under-costed for their Power Rating, and therefore amazing?
Given the pattern that I'm seeing, it seems more likely that the ability to tailor to your opponent is +1 or +2 PR in and of itself.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

If you don't mind giving views to Warhammer TV: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdiBMPJrrGM&t=308s

At around 4:45 they start talking about Power Rating. If you can't or can't be bothered to watch, Jervis says that they looked at a unit with a minimum spec, then they looked at it totally tooled up, then they took a point half way in between to work out the power rating.

Now this is just his word, I've not gone and checked the maths or anything, but it's about the closest to an official statement regarding the matter that I've been able to find.

[Cheesegear]

Jervis says that they looked at a unit with a minimum spec, then they looked at it totally tooled up, then they took a point half way in between to work out the power rating.

That way of thinking is completely wrong. But, now that I know that that's how the game was put together; I can break it.

[Blackhawk748]

Jervis says that they looked at a unit with a minimum spec, then they looked at it totally tooled up, then they took a point half way in between to work out the power rating.

Im with Cheese, thats not good. Mostly because "all tooled up" probably just means "the most expensive toys" and we all know that doesnt really mean anything. For instance, why would i put a Power Fist on a Dev Sergeant? The answer is, i wouldnt, because its stupid. Hell putting any upgrades on him is probably stupid, cuz he isnt doing anything.

I mean, if you want a really general eyeballing, then its sorta right-ish, but even then we see some serious outliers (looking at you Tempestus Command and Honor Guard).

[Cheesegear]

Mostly because "all tooled up" probably just means "the most expensive toys" and we all know that doesnt really mean anything.

It does mean something. It means that the more customisable your unit is, the harder that GW has botched the PR. Because PR is - apparently - based on "Give them everything and then halve it." Which means that PR is skewed higher on customisable units because GW doesn't know what they're doing. It means that customisable units are both worse and better in casual/PR rated games because you'll be paying for a PR that you're not using, or, you'll have double the amount of wargear that you're supposed to.

There's only one Plasma Gun in the MT box. PR3. Fine. If you were to go ahead and give them four because the rules say you can? Still PR3. In the casual setting, you'll brutalise your opponents. In PR25 (Ideally equivalent to ~1000 Points), you could conceivably take 5 such squads with room to spare for your HQs - also PR3. In the 'competitive' setting, where you're made to pay points, well...You'll pay points for it.

Meanwhile, I can be safe in measuring Primaris Marines' PR, because they have no options at all - so far.

[Mystic Muse]

May not be the best idea, but I'm putting together Sisters of Battle.


My friend said I should get a Mars Pattern Warlord Titan for it.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

May not be the best idea, but I'm putting together Sisters of Battle.


My friend said I should get a Mars Pattern Warlord Titan for it.

I thought it was a joke until I went to Forge World and saw that they actually have Warlord Titans for sale.

I mean damn, what's the point cost and Power Rating of that monstrosity going to look like.

[Parra]

I mean damn, what's the point cost and Power Rating of that monstrosity going to look like.

All the points.

[lord_khaine]

At around 4:45 they start talking about Power Rating. If you can't or can't be bothered to watch, Jervis says that they looked at a unit with a minimum spec, then they looked at it totally tooled up, then they took a point half way in between to work out the power rating.

All the points.

But its only going to be 3/4 of all the power rating

[Blackhawk748]

I mean damn, what's the point cost and Power Rating of that monstrosity going to look like.

IIRC its like 2700 points or something, which means it will just go up

[Pilum]

I thought it was a joke until I went to Forge World and saw that they actually have Warlord Titans for sale.

I mean damn, what's the point cost and Power Rating of that monstrosity going to look like.

To adapt the old joke about flash cars: if you have to ask, your points limit is too low

(ps I actually agree with your sentiment; personally, Titans should only be about 5" tall, but that ship sailed long ago, so...)

[Eldan]

5 inches? Aren't dreadnaughts that size, by now? Nevermind daemon princes, knights, etc.?

(Maybe my imperial measurement memory is off.)

[Cheesegear]

Partial confirmation from my Blackshirt;

He seems to think that Power Rating is equal to what you can get out of one box. If you need to kitbash or convert your models, or if you need a second box for a second Special Weapon (e.g; Skitarii are rated with the assumption that they only have access to one Special Weapon of each type), then Power Rating does not take that into account. 'Power Rating is designed for newbs', which means buying the box, putting together the box, and then putting it on the table. So it is actually assumed that Tactical Squads do not have access to Plasma Cannons, or other Heavy weapons that aren't Missile Launchers, which is why they're PR5.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

Well I've gone and booked my Dark Imperium. Hopefully somebody at the store is willing to trade me half the miniatures from their box so I can focus on one army. I don't think it's feasible to pass the Primaris off as Death Guard...