Warhammer 40K Tabletop X: "Everybody Expects The Inquisition!"

[lord_khaine]

Nice story Cheese, i liked the jokes about the substitutes you used.

Also, i can now see that the trick i missed is to make your opponent give up in turn 3, so you dont have to describe 7 rounds worth of action

[Tarinaky]

I've recently come back to playing 40k over Vassal after taking a break from the hobby since around the start of 4e.

I immediately went back to my old, familiar, Blood Angels roots - excited by the prospect of a new codex. I'm a little bit unsure how to really use them effectively however.

Against shoot-y armies I can do alright but I am unsure how to deal with dedicated assault troops as every other list has better ones than I do due to invulnerable saves and the like.

I'm also not entirely sure on the practical use of Death Company due to their high price and low survivability (since FNP no longer applies to AP/Power wounds). Which is a pity because I always loved the fluff. With Jump Packs they cost more than Terminators with poorer armour and weapons.

[Trixie]

So, I've decided to start play-testing some Chaos Marines. My Word Bearers army is slowly getting off the ground (considering going full-hog into Armies On Parade...Don't know. I've got 'til...I don't know. GDAus is October 1st).

"I am Alpharius!"

Wait, Word Bearers shouting AL calls?

So, here's what I've put together (most of it is proxied).

I thought your store kicked you out for proxies once, no?

[the SW mini-dreads and all stuff]

Then says 'cause he's got Sicarius, he declares his other Tactical Squad is Infiltrating too

Tacticals infiltrating into the middle of CC army?

What can go wrong with that plan?

...It really doesn't help that I was the one who helped him design this list. Maybe you guys can spot where my influences are?

Let me guess, in the strange part appended to the list at the end, here?

Scouts (x10) with Shotguns and a Power Fist
Scouts (x10) with Rifles and a Missile Launcher
Land Speeder Storm with Assault Cannon
Land Speeder Storm with Heavy Flamer

(BTW, Raven Guard and no Assault Marines? Sicarius? Bikes? Hmmm...

He would have been seriously better off even with Vanguards, and that's saying something.

Also, Word Bearers with Raptors, Thousand Sons and Berserkers. Hmmm. Even AL doesn't fit these at all.)

Since I had my Chosen in the middle of the board, my opponent wasn't too happy, and basically ended up putting Shrike and his Command Squad in his own Deployment Zone anyway.

Which begs the question why he went for infiltration at all, Sicarus gives better skills for that list.

IIRC, when I wrote the list and gave it to my opponent (a few days ago), it featured a Librarian instead of Sicarius

He should have been smacked for that part.

and more Scouts and more Land Speeder Storms...

And rewarded for that one

The Sniper Scouts... Die.

...But, in my defense, the Raven Guard list that I told him to play was nowhere near that bad. I promise. Plus, I know from my own experience that Scout-lists don't do real well against Chaos Marines.

Scouts are weak against Chaos...

Previous list was better/had more scouts...

Hmmm, does not compute.

Especially with the previous part, about pinning fearless troops.

Still...I showed my opponent my list, like every three seconds because he swore up and down that I was cheating. Even though I showed him my Codex and everything.

...I really don't see why you'd need to read your opponent's list more than once...

There are people who can't memorize every codex, in, like, one show of the army list?

So, I guess you can recite all, say, Acts of Faith from memory and you don't have to have a double-take when something sounds fishy just because your opponent shown you his list an hour ago?

[Timberwolf]

I've recently come back to playing 40k over Vassal after taking a break from the hobby since around the start of 4e.

I immediately went back to my old, familiar, Blood Angels routes - excited by the prospect of a new codex. I'm a little bit unsure how to really use them effectively however.

Against shoot-y armies I can do alright but I am unsure how to deal with dedicated assault troops as every other list has better ones than I do due to invulnerable saves and the like.

I'm also not entirely sure on the practical use of Death Company due to their high price and low survivability (since FNP no longer applies to AP/Power wounds). Which is a pity because I always loved the fluff. With Jump Packs they cost more than Terminators with poorer armour and weapons.

My son, I shall shake you warmly by the hand. I too have recently returned to the game, playing Blood Angels as once I did.

I have been having great joy with my Assault Squads as troops and loving it. The lack of invulnerable saves is something that is vexing me at the moment too. Without hitting the special characters, basically it seems Hammer terminators, that don't really fit with what I want, a Captain, who seems gimped a bit, or a Chaplain are the options.

Death Company, I don't take them very often although my ones are a direct swap out for my flamer assault squad, but 5+ of them unlock the Death Company Dreadnought, which is a monster and next on my list of things to do. When I have used them, they excel at killing basic troops / non hammernator level elites until they die from it. As soon as a power weapon is mentioned then, yes, they're not so good. However, the extra attack they have in close combat hurts as well as the +1 strength and initiative on the charge, making them more likely to strike first, harder than the other guy. Basically it's like a squad of Assault Marine sergeants in an assault. Then there's the bolter equipped option that I haven't tried yet, so others will be more qualified to say.

I've not played so many games as yet, but perhaps the best lesson I had was against some Space Wolves. It was basically don't bother hitting a close combat unit with Assault squads that started with 5 men (I was still buying stuff). Next, always have at least one Sanguinary Priest. For 75 points if you're doing a jump list, you have just made your 10 man assault squad have all the practical advantages of the Death Company and none of the drawbacks, like the Rage rule. The priest is no slouch in a fight either. Also, don't forget your meltaguns on an Assault squad.

[Tarinaky]

I prefer the Furioso Dreadnought because of the extra point of Front Armour. Given a pair of blood talons they're the only thing in my army that were able to hold off a squad of... I think they're called Incubi.

"Haha, you can't scratch my paintwork while I can keep killing you all day long."

For some comparison, this is, more or less, what I've been playing with.

Spoiler

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Blood Angels Army (5th Company)
------------------------------------
::500pts::
HQ - Librarian - 100pts
Fear of the Dark, Unleash Rage

3rd Squad Tactical Marines - 190pts
1x Meltagun
1x Missile Launcher

6th Squad Assault Marines - 210pts
VS Powerweapon + Boltpistol
1x SM Flamer

::1kpts::
As above plus...
6th Squad receives a second SM Flamer +5pts

Elite - Sanguinary Priest - 90pts
Jump Pack
Power Sword

Elite - Chaplain - 125pts
Jump Pack

Death Company - 140pts
Jump Packs

5th Squad Devestators - 140pts
Sergeant has a Signum
2x Lascanons

::1.5kpts::
As above plus...
2x more Death Company (6 total) - 70pts

Baal Predator - 170pts
TL Assault Cannon
Sponson Heavy Bolters
Stormbolter
Dozer Blade
Hunter-Killer Missile

Furioso Dreadnought - 140pts
Blood Claws
Magna-Grappler
Stormbolter
Meltagun

4th Squad Tactical Marines - 190pts
VS Boltpistol + Powerweapon
1x Meltagun
1x Missile Launcher

::2kpts::
As above plus...

Sanguinary Priest - 65pts
Power Sword

Sanguinary Priest - 65pts
Power Sword

Furioso Dreadnought receives dedicated Drop Pod +35pts

3rd Squad receives Dedicated Rhino - +65pts
/w Dozerblade + HK-Missile

4th squad receives dedicated Razorback - +60pts (Dedicated 4th Squad)
/w TL Heavy Bolter
/w Dozerblade

Vindicator - 145pts
Seige Shield

[Closet_Skeleton]

Against shoot-y armies I can do alright but I am unsure how to deal with dedicated assault troops as every other list has better ones than I do due to invulnerable saves and the like.

Blood Angels are one of the game's more assaulty armies. Furious Charge space marines and all.

Its not like thunderhammer and storm shield terminators are disallowed for you either, they're just more balanced cost wise and don't benefit much from your main synergy unit (sanguinary priests).

Storm shields on vanguard and honour guard is also possible, but expensive.

I'm also not entirely sure on the practical use of Death Company due to their high price and low survivability (since FNP no longer applies to AP/Power wounds). Which is a pity because I always loved the fluff. With Jump Packs they cost more than Terminators with poorer armour and weapons.

Death Company do fine. As long as you look at those expensive options and think "yeah right, why would I bother?"

For less points than most chaos space marine cult units you get a WS5 A2 space marine with furious charge, relentless and feel no pain. Basically that's stealing special rules off three differant chaos space marine cult units, all of which cost more per model than you (but have extra advantages like scoring, invulnerable saves or T5. Who cares, you're cheaper and still have more special rules).

10 deathcompany with boltguns is an all right unit. I take 5 for fluff reasons. Sometimes they even do stuff, but they're a suicide distraction so I don't care. Occaisonally my opponent even acts like an idiot an rushes to kill them like they're some kind of threat. But not very often.

30 deathcompany with bolt guns is a rolling ball of death.

Jump packs aren't worth it ever sadly. Not when you can upgrade that jumppack to come with a full assault marine for a mere 3 points

[Nameless Ghost]

S6/s7 firepower (though nice) is unneeded to deal with light armor because tau have access to broadsides.

Indeed. Broadsides are definitely the superior anti-armour choice. However because of the fact you can only take, at maximum, 9 Broadsides in an army, Broadsides are not a straight-up replacement for Crisis suits. In addition, once all of those vehicles are blown apart, your Broadsides lose much of their effectiveness.

broadsides [245]
1x target lock
1x targeting array
team leader, hard wired targeting array, target lock

So you've got 4 BS3 S5 shots and 8 BS4 S5 shots out to 24" too.
Multiplying this by 3 gives you 12 and 24 shots respectively for an average of 22 hits with the Smart Missile System. I'm sure you'll agree, this is an absolutely pitiful amount of anti-infantry firepower.

As an aside, you can't hard-wire the Targeting Array - but I'll assume that was a typo.

So while Broadsides are very good at taking out vehicles - transports in particular - filling all your Heavy slots with them is a poor idea because after the first few turns you're stuck with over 700 points worth of models that are hardly contributing to the battle.

Obviously, anti-infantry units are needed.

The mobility therefore is only slightly helpful and mostly only if you have large LoS blockers to hide behind (but you should not want these on the board because they block your LoS as well reducing the effectiveness of the rest of your army)

Devilfish chassis are a primary LoS blocker in many Tau armies that I've seen. Because the Devilfish/Hammerhead and the suits are movable and the Devilfish is shaped suitably to allow Crisis Suits to fire over it once they jump out from behind it, it is very rare that you'll lose line of sight to an opposing unit through your opponent using your Devilfish against you or if the Devilfish is stunned/immobilised. You're far more likely to fail to get line of sight because of blocking yourself - which is something anyone learning to play Tau has to learn not to do (certainly it happened to me on more than one occasion).

However, your proposed Broadside unit would suffer greatly from having an LoS blocker placed in its way because they cannot move and shoot. As you cannot be certain that the table you are playing on won't have any LoS blocking terrain before the game, relying on the fact it doesn't is a risky decision when building the army list.

so why rely on subpar suits to deal with your opponents tanks which do not bring targets to bare for your FW?

(placed to take full advantage of 30" range)

Your own Mathhammer has already shown that Fireknives outshoot Fire Warriors at 13"+,

Spoiler

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vs MEQ (i.e. over half the armies in the game)

3x fire knives [186pts]
plasma, missile, multi tracker

13+inches
hits: plasma 1.5 , missiles 3
wounds: plasma 1.25, missiles 2.5
dead: plasma 1.25, missiles .83 [Total: 2.08]

18 fire warriors [180]
13+ inches
hits: 9
wounds: 6
dead: 2

and I'll definitely agree that your opponent will rarely be getting within 12" anyway (barring Deep Strike, etc). With this and others points in mind, aren't Fireknives actually a better choice than Fire Warriors if you're looking to bring a unit that is capable of hurting your opponent?

[Cheesegear]

For some comparison, this is, more or less, what I've been playing with.

Spoiler

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Blood Angels Army (5th Company)
------------------------------------
::500pts::
HQ - Librarian - 100pts
WS5/BS4/S4/T4/W2/I4/A2(3)/Ld10/Sv3+
Fear of the Dark, Unleash Rage

3rd Squad Tactical Marines - 190pts
9xSM WS4/BS4/S4/T4/W1/I4/A1/Ld8/Sv3+
VS WS4/BS4/S4/T4/W1/I4/A2(3)/Ld9/Sv3+
VS Boltpistol + Powerweapon +15pts
1x Meltagun (S8/AP1) +5pts
1x Missile Launcher

6th Squad Assault Marines - 210pts
9x SM WS4/BS4/S4/T4/W1/I4/A1(2)/Ld8/Sv3+
1x VS WS4/BS4/S4/T4/W1/I4/A2(3)/Ld9/Sv3+
VS Powerweapon + Boltpistol +15pts
1x SM Flamer +5pts

1xHQ, 2xTroops
::1kpts::
As above plus...
6th Squad receives a second SM Flamer +5pts

Elite - Sanguinary Priest - 90pts
WS5/BS4/S4/T4/W1/I4/A2(3)/Ld9/Sv3+
Jump Pack +25pts
Power Sword +15pts

Elite - Chaplain - 125pts
WS5/BS4/S4/T4/W2/I4/A2/Ld10/Sv3+
Jump Pack +25pts

Death Company - 140pts
4xDC WS5/BS4/S4/T4/W1/I4/A2(3)/Ld8/Sv3+
Jump Packs +15ppm

5th Squad Devestators - 140pts
4xSM WS4/BS4/S4/T4/W1/I4/A1/Ld8/Sv3+
VS WS4/BS4/S4/T4/W1/I4/A2(3)/Ld9/Sv3+
Sergeant has a Signum
2x Lascanons +50pts

1xHQ, 2xElites, 2xTroops, 1xHeavy
::1.5kpts::
As above plus...
2x more Death Company (6 total) - 70pts

Baal Predator - 170pts
BS4/F13/S11/R10
TL Assault Cannon (24" S6/AP4 Heavy 4 Rending)
Sponson Heavy Bolters (36" S5/AP4 Heavy 3) +30pts
Stormbolter (24" S4/AP 5 Assault 2) +10pts
Dozer Blade +5pts
Hunter-Killer Missile +10pts

Furioso Dreadnought - 140pts
Dread WS6/BS4/S6/F13/S12/R10/I4/A2(3)
Blood Claws (Lightning Claws,Gain an attack for every unsaved wound)
Magna-Grappler (12" S8/AP1 Heavy 1 Grapple) +15pts
Stormbolter
Meltagun

4th Squad Tactical Marines - 190pts
9xSM WS4/BS4/S4/T4/W1/I4/A1/Ld8/Sv3+
VS WS4/BS4/S4/T4/W1/I4/A2(3)/Ld9/Sv3+
VS Boltpistol + Powerweapon +15pts
1x Meltagun (S8/AP1) +5pts
1x Missile Launcher

1xHQ, 3xElites, 3xTroops, 1xFast, 1xHeavy
::2kpts::
As above plus...

Sanguinary Priest - 65pts
WS5/BS4/S4/T4/W1/I4/A2(3)/Ld9/Sv3+
Power Sword +15pts

Sanguinary Priest - 65pts
WS5/BS4/S4/T4/W1/I4/A2(3)/Ld9/Sv3+
Power Sword +15pts

Furioso Dreadnought receives dedicated Drop Pod +35pts

3rd Squad receives Dedicated Rhino - +65pts
/w Dozerblade + HK-Missile

4th squad receives dedicated Razorback - +60pts (Dedicated 4th Squad)
BS4/F11/S11/R10
/w TL Heavy Bolter
/w Dozerblade

Vindicator - 145pts
BS4 F13 S11 R10
Seige Shield +10pts

...Uhh...Get rid of the stat-blocks. Please. Just do it before we all get in trouble. And there's individual wargear costs. Yeah...That's kind of a big no-no.

Here's something I prepared earlier.

And another one.

[crazedloon]

So you've got 4 BS3 S5 shots and 8 BS4 S5 shots out to 24" too.
Multiplying this by 3 gives you 12 and 24 shots respectively for an average of 22 hits with the Smart Missile System. I'm sure you'll agree, this is an absolutely pitiful amount of anti-infantry firepower.

22 hits
14.66 wounds
4.88 dead

if we are comparing these units to the fireknives that is not bad because they lag behind fireknives by only 1.36 dead and bring to bear a much better anti tank weapon.

Or if you use the railguns to hit infantry (assuming you are not hitting larger units with 5+ save in the open or with enough marker lights) you have 6 at BS 4 and 3 at BS 3

7.58 hits
6.316 wounds/dead

at 13+ inches they are killing better than fireknives (with their 6.24 wounds)

VS non MeQ the broadsides do far better than the fireknives as anti infantry and vs MeQ they lag only slightly behind (though the infantry killing is what FWs are for)

As an aside, you can't hard-wire the Targeting Array - but I'll assume that was a typo.

indeed I hardwired the wrong item the target lock is the hardwired one

Obviously, anti-infantry units are needed.

again that is what fire warriors are for, though I hope the above proves that broadsides do this job much better than you are giving them credit for.

For example vs an ork mob you need a few marker lights to negate their KFF and your broadsides wipe out 14.66 models.

Devilfish chassis are a primary LoS blocker in many Tau armies that I've seen. Because the Devilfish/Hammerhead and the suits are movable and the Devilfish is shaped suitably to allow Crisis Suits to fire over it once they jump out from behind it, it is very rare that you'll lose line of sight to an opposing unit through your opponent using your Devilfish against you or if the Devilfish is stunned/immobilised. You're far more likely to fail to get line of sight because of blocking yourself - which is something anyone learning to play Tau has to learn not to do (certainly it happened to me on more than one occasion).

However, your proposed Broadside unit would suffer greatly from having an LoS blocker placed in its way because they cannot move and shoot. As you cannot be certain that the table you are playing on won't have any LoS blocking terrain before the game, relying on the fact it doesn't is a risky decision when building the army list.

I do not like devilfish and feel they add too little to the army for the points you spend. My suggestion would be to not run any and you avoid them blocking your LoS (but than if you do run them just don't block your line of sight since you have control of the unit )

As for the terrain that is the first part pf the game and strategy and particularly if you are playing a shooting list. Ensure that you create strong firing lanes and keep large LoS blockers to a minimum is part of the game.

Your own Mathhammer has already shown that Fireknives outshoot Fire Warriors at 13"+,

Spoiler

Show

vs MEQ (i.e. over half the armies in the game)

3x fire knives [186pts]
plasma, missile, multi tracker

13+inches
hits: plasma 1.5 , missiles 3
wounds: plasma 1.25, missiles 2.5
dead: plasma 1.25, missiles .83 [Total: 2.08]

18 fire warriors [180]
13+ inches
hits: 9
wounds: 6
dead: 2

..... why yes they do beat them by .08

But the disadvantage of the suits far outway a mere .08 wound

and I'll definitely agree that your opponent will rarely be getting within 12" anyway (barring Deep Strike, etc). With this and others points in mind, aren't Fireknives actually a better choice than Fire Warriors if you're looking to bring a unit that is capable of hurting your opponent?

No because of the weakness of a suit
-each has 1/3 of the units power
-each can be ID with str 8 (effecting the above)
-you will be making LD test each time you loose a model
-terrain kills you (dangerous terrain)
-not scoring
-don't fill required slots in a Tau army

I am not saying they are entirely useless because they are at least as effective as a FW unit, however why take a unit with these weaknesses when you can take another unit with the only weaknesses being -1 save/ less mobility (which is generally unneeded).

------------------

Another thing about the FWs which I personally think is overlooked far too often is their team leaders access to a marker light. a single light has a 50% chance of making the next unit which shoots at the same target (and you should be stacking units on targets for this reason and to eliminate units ASAP) 2 more times which is .44 more wounds (making up for the lagging behind of .08 wounds at 13+) or allowing you to do other things like bring down cover saves which mean more reliable deaths

[Nameless Ghost]

22 hits
14.66 wounds
4.88 dead

if we are comparing these units to the fireknives that is not bad because they lag behind fireknives by only 1.36 dead and bring to bear a much better anti tank weapon.

Or if you use the railguns to hit infantry (assuming you are not hitting larger units with 5+ save in the open or with enough marker lights) you have 6 at BS 4 and 3 at BS 3

7.58 hits
6.316 wounds/dead

at 13+ inches they are killing better than fireknives (with their 6.24 wounds)

Point conceded. I got the numbers mixed up. Paying 700+ points to kill just over 6 models a turn (and if they have cover this number is reduced by half) and not being able to move while doing so doesn't seem appealing though. There becomes a point when you simply cannot take more Broadsides because you run out of Heavy slots.

no because of the weakness of a suit
-each has 1/3 of the units power
-each can be ID with str 8 (effecting the above)
-you will be making LD test each time you loose a model
-terrain kills you (dangerous terrain)
-not scoring
-don't fill required slots in a Tau army

-Terrain only kills you if you jump into it and then it's only a 1/6 chance per model. You're free to walk through difficult terrain or jump over it with no problems.
-Filling required slots in the army is irrelevant when you're looking at a larger army.
-Fire Warriors will take a Morale test after losing a maximum of 3 models. It's much easier to force a Morale check onto a squad of Fire Warriors than a squad of Crisis suits with standard anti-infantry weapons.
-Not being scoring is irrelevant. Certainly being scoring would be nice (bring on the new Tau Codex!), but it's certainly not a major factor in my mind when I build an army list. I don't discount powerful units because of their ability to hold objectives.

Speaking of which, because you advocate a Tau army which eschews Devilfish and Crisis suits for more static units which, like Fire Warriors and Broadsides, expect to remain still, how do you move out to capture or contest objectives and win games?

I am not saying they are entirely useless because they are at least as effective as a FW unit, however why take a unit with these weaknesses when you can take another unit with the only weaknesses being -1 save/ less mobility (which is generally unneeded).

Mobility wins games. Besides, you're ignoring several other disadvantages of Fire Warriors compared to Fireknives, such as:
-Less Toughness
-Less Leadership
-Inability to deal with any target but light infantry efficiently

Another thing about the FWs which I personally think is overlooked far too often is their team leaders access to a marker light. a single light has a 50% chance of making the next unit which shoots at the same target (and you should be stacking units on targets for this reason and to eliminate units ASAP) 2 more times which is .44 more wounds (making up for the lagging behind of .08 wounds at 13+) or allowing you to do other things like bring down cover saves which mean more reliable deaths

Markerlights on Fire Warriors are expensive. A total 20 points per marker (providing you're not buying the 'ui anyway) for a 50% chance to get +1 BS/-1 cover is really not worth it. You can get markerlights in other places for less points.

One of your reasons for taking Fire Warriors over Fireknives is that you get more bodies and that you're more effective against infantry. In a point-for-point comparison, Kroot outshoot Fire Warriors against Marines. Kroot also have more flexible deployment options and are better in close combat.

(10 Kroot cause 2.5 wounds at long range while 7 Fire Warriors cause 2.3).

[Dragonus45]

I promise this is my last stupid question, but what is a fireknife suit? Is it a suit with the plasma/missile/multitracker or is there something more to them?

[Craftworld]

Is pure Xzeentch good or should I to start my first Chaos army start with a combo of Xzeentch and another chaos god?

[Irbis]

I promise this is my last stupid question, but what is a fireknife suit? Is it a suit with the plasma/missile/multitracker or is there something more to them?

http://forums.tauonline.org/tau/6858...elios-etc.html

Is pure Xzeentch good or should I to start my first Chaos army start with a combo of Xzeentch and another chaos god?

Tzeentch is actually by far the weakest now. Cool models, but no one includes them above certain level of play.

[Klose_the_Sith]

One of your reasons for taking Fire Warriors over Fireknives is that you get more bodies and that you're more effective against infantry. In a point-for-point comparison, Kroot outshoot Fire Warriors against Marines. Kroot also have more flexible deployment options and are better in close combat.

(10 Kroot cause 2.5 wounds at long range while 7 Fire Warriors cause 2.3).

And you were just saying that a 4+ T3 wasn't survivable enough. How does that compare to a squad that implodes if a flamer so much as comes near them?

Actually, don't answer that question. These Tau Debates are borxed and I'm gonna abstain

(I'm now, however wondering if it'd work out if you hilariously massed Fire Warriors and ran a rapid-fire charge/Waaaaaaaagh! while holding your backline steady. It isn't like 10 points is thaaaaaaaaaaaaat expensive ...)

[Winterwind]

Is pure Xzeentch good or should I to start my first Chaos army start with a combo of Xzeentch and another chaos god?

Depends on whether you are referring to Chaos Space Marines or Chaos Daemons. If Chaos Daemons, he's practically necessary, perhaps the best Chaos God there is. Not sure if pure Tzeentch is viable, but if any mono-God is viable, it's Tzeentch, and I think it should work moderately fine. If Chaos Space Marines, well... pretty much what Irbis said, unfortunately (apart from Daemon Princes; Tzeentch Daemon Princes with Warptime are second only to Daemon Princes of Slaanesh with Leash of Submission). Thousand Sons are good, but too specialized to really work all on their own, and Tzeentch Marines are way too expensive.

[crazedloon]

Paying 700+ points to kill just over 6 models a turn (and if they have cover this number is reduced by half) and not being able to move while doing so doesn't seem appealing though.

It does when that is 6 vehicles, 6 thunder wolves, 6 terminators.... and the list goes on of the things broadsides kill more effectively than fireknives.

-Terrain only kills you if you jump into it and then it's only a 1/6 chance per model. You're free to walk through difficult terrain or jump over it with no problems.

very little terrain is small enough to jump over, that which you can tends to only be corners or the like.
You always have to take the test even if you walk through terrain, it is in the wording of the rules that no matter what jump infantry do in terrain they must take the test.

-Filling required slots in the army is irrelevant when you're looking at a larger army.

... not quite sure what you mean here but if you are making minimum units to fill slots and than focusing on other units you are wasting points on those slot fillers.

-Fire Warriors will take a Morale test after losing a maximum of 3 models. It's much easier to force a Morale check onto a squad of Fire Warriors than a squad of Crisis suits with standard anti-infantry weapons.

The problem is less the standard anti infantry weapons as it is the normal anti tank weapons (str 8) which need but 1 hit and wound to kill a model which forces a check. If you are not in terrain you are loosing a model outright to a missile hit, no save and that is a check while conversely warriors will loose only 1 model or be hit with much weaker shots.

-Not being scoring is irrelevant. Certainly being scoring would be nice (bring on the new Tau Codex!), but it's certainly not a major factor in my mind when I build an army list. I don't discount powerful units because of their ability to hold objectives.

this is very much true but the discussion started out comparing FW vs Fireknives where the suits loose out in this regard

Speaking of which, because you advocate a Tau army which eschews Devilfish and Crisis suits for more static units which, like Fire Warriors and Broadsides, expect to remain still, how do you move out to capture or contest objectives and win games?

Ideally with the devilfish of the few pathfinder squads I would run. Just because I have made a theory list (and sort of want to build it since tau are my guilty pleasure army)

Spoiler

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shas'el [115]
shield generator, TL burst cannon, Stimulant injector, Iridium armour, Hardwired black sun filter

Fire warrior [140]
12x
shas'ui, markerlight, target lock

Fire warrior [140]
12x
shas'ui, markerlight, target lock

Fire warrior [140]
12x
shas'ui, markerlight, target lock

Fire warrior [140]
12x
shas'ui, markerlight, target lock

Fire warrior [140]
12x
shas'ui, markerlight, target lock

Fire warrior [140]
12x
shas'ui, markerlight, target lock

pathfinders [155]
5x
team leader, target lock
devilfish

pathfinders [155]
5x
team leader, target lock
devilfish

Broadsides [245]
3x
1x target lock 5
2x targeting array 20
team leader, hard wired target lock 10

Broadsides [245]
3x
1x target lock 5
2x targeting array 20
team leader, hard wired target lock 10

Broadsides [245]
3x
1x target lock 5
2x targeting array 20
team leader, hard wired target lock 10

[2000pts]

Mobility wins games. Besides, you're ignoring several other disadvantages of Fire Warriors compared to Fireknives, such as:
-Less Toughness
-Less Leadership
-Inability to deal with any target but light infantry efficiently

-less toughness but more models
-same leadership with a shas'ui

-can deal with heavy infantry (what do you consider heavy?)
-3+ armor has been what the number up till now have represented
-2+ armor tends to have less models so though they may deal less wounds it still will be enough to take them out
-str 5 can effect AV 10-11
-Str 5 wounds T 5 (grotesques and Thunderwolves) on 4 which deals with them just fine

Markerlights on Fire Warriors are expensive. A total 20 points per marker (providing you're not buying the 'ui anyway) for a 50% chance to get +1 BS/-1 cover is really not worth it. You can get markerlights in other places for less points.

this is true, a single pathfinder is cheaper than the upgrade on the shas'ui; however the flexibility of hitting more targets (as opposed to the pathfinders all in 1 unit) is what you are paying for. That 50% chance also translates to 2 more hits if you use 1 marker light on a 12 man unit or 4 more if you use 2 lights which means more models dead.

One of your reasons for taking Fire Warriors over Fireknives is that you get more bodies and that you're more effective against infantry. In a point-for-point comparison, Kroot outshoot Fire Warriors against Marines. Kroot also have more flexible deployment options and are better in close combat.

(10 Kroot cause 2.5 wounds at long range while 7 Fire Warriors cause 2.3).

This is true however
-they also are far easier to kill once you negate their cover save (via flamers or barrage)
-their more flexible deployment just means they will be closer to the enemy as you can already deploy far away from them
-you should not be in close combat with tau if so you have screwed up somewhere

[Arcanoi]

[Tau Codex Blues]

We've beat this argument like a dead horse. The Tau Codex and it's units individual roles are horribly borked and nobody can really agree on anything about them. Arguing this is essentially pointless.

I propose we make up a short essay stating all the sides and then put it in The Guide, and shepherd anyone who brings the topic up to it, because this topic has consumed more posts and pages than every other topic I can think of, and nobody is any closer to consensus.

[Fcannon]

My opponent claiming that they should Scatter 4D6" because of the Land Speeder Storm, and my replying that Icons = No Scatter. He sulked again.

Actually, LS Storms disable Icons in addition to increasing scatter. Unless the LSS was within 6'' of the daemons but not the icon bearer?

[Incomp]

We've beat this argument like a dead horse. The Tau Codex and it's units individual roles are horribly borked and nobody can really agree on anything about them. Arguing this is essentially pointless.

I propose we make up a short essay stating all the sides and then put it in The Guide, and shepherd anyone who brings the topic up to it, because this topic has consumed more posts and pages than every other topic I can think of, and nobody is any closer to consensus.

Yes. Oh god yes.

[Cheesegear]

I propose we make up a short essay stating all the sides and then put it in The Guide, and shepherd anyone who brings the topic up to it, because this topic has consumed more posts and pages than every other topic I can think of, and nobody is any closer to consensus.

Tau are not my best hat. If anyone wants to do so, write up a good one and I'll link to it.

[Ninja Chocobo]

Okay so
It appears that the Tactical squad box doesn't come with a Power Fist.
So, where the sod am I meant to get them?

[Closet_Skeleton]

You always have to take the test even if you walk through terrain, it is in the wording of the rules that no matter what jump infantry do in terrain they must take the test.

By RAW I don't even think you can make jump infantry choose to walk. But I find that the kind of people who are fun to play against are happy to make up house rules on the spot to cover logical situations.

-Inability to deal with any target but light infantry efficiently

It would kind of go against the point of heavy infantry if non-specialised units could deal with them effectively. I have no problem shooting space marines with bolt guns to try and kill them so don't see the problem with shooting pulse rifles at them.

[Ninja Chocobo]

By RAW I don't even think you can make jump infantry choose to walk. But I find that the kind of people who are fun to play against are happy to make up house rules on the spot to cover logical situations.

"House rules" nothing.

...Jump infantry can use their jump packs (or equivalent) and move up to 12" in the Movement phase. This is optional and they can choose to move as normal infantry if they wish....

[Cheesegear]

Okay so
It appears that the Tactical squad box doesn't come with a Power Fist.
So, where the sod am I meant to get them?

Commander Box
Command Squad Box
Assault Squad Box
Devastator Box

Dark Angel Veterans
Black Templars, x2

Death Company, Grey Hunters, etc.

Basically, every box except Tactical.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Then its just a clarification issue about how much they count as moving as infantry when going through difficult terrain.

Commander Box (left)
Command Squad Box (left)
Assault Squad Box (right)
Devastator Box (left)

Basically, every box except Tactical.

Sanguard, deathcompany and black templar upgrade have them too. Pretty sure space wolf and dark angels as well. Not to mention terminators (yes, this conversion can be done).

So yeah.

Basically, every box except Tactical.

[Craftworld]

That sounds like a fail on GWs part because everyone that I know that plays Van. Marines runs most of their powerfists (except for Normal Termies) on their tacticals. I wonder where my friends got theirs.

[Cheesegear]

That sounds like a fail on GWs part because everyone that I know that plays Van. Marines runs most of their powerfists (except for Normal Termies) on their tacticals.

It's really not a fail at all.
See, the boxes aren't designed to be competitive, so, there is that.

However, on the other hand, if you want a Power Fist on your Tactical Sarge, you need to buy another box. I can't see anything other than a win on GW's part.

Considering you'll end up buying lots of boxes anyway...

[Tarinaky]

I was of the understanding that in 5e Powerfists were strictly inferior to regular Powerweapons due to them not benefiting from the extra close-combat-weapon?

An S8 hit is only really needed for specialist roles and even then... well... Meltaguns and Missiles are superior at fewer points.

[Cheesegear]

I was of the understanding that in 5e Powerfists were strictly inferior to regular Powerweapons due to them not benefiting from the extra close-combat-weapon?

Who gave you this understanding?

'Stictly'!? Err...No. Power Fists are really, really, really good. The extra strength more than makes up for one less attack.

However, Power Fists do not go on Independent Characters.

An S8 hit is only really needed for specialist roles and even then... well... Meltaguns and Missiles are superior at fewer points.

No. In some cases, I suppose you'd be right. But, in the wider meta-game, when your Tactical Squads start getting Assaulted by Monstrous Creatures, and you want to start targeting T4 Indepdendent Characters in Assault, you'll quickly find that Power Fists are awesome. That's not even including the fact that you can take Missile Launchers and Meltaguns as well.

[Closet_Skeleton]

The tactical squad box is the oldest box. When originally issued it just had a chainsword for the sergeant and a flamer and missile launcher and it was the start of 3rd ed. Its not like they had any idea what would be competative for anything at that point.

They redid one of the sprues to have a meltagun and plasmagun at least. No idea why they didn't add a powerfist at the same time.