Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIX: "Understand the gravity of the situation."

[Trixie]

Did anyone really take the Space Pope back then? Space Pope seemed like an entirely optional thing to take, while with Tyranids...can you actually have a Tyranid army without synapse creatures?

No one took him because having your army work against yourself is simply devouring fun you have faster than Tyranids nom planets.

The point is, Tyranids are the only army where you can have your 400 pts Carnifex brood have 25% chance of losing wounds to itself (and 100% chance of doing absolutely nothing to enemy) just because it's 5 millimetres too far from another model. Why weren't more big bugs made a synapse creatures, or at least have an upgrade making them so? "Shoot the big ones" is no longer fluffy?

Add to this something described as fast, all devouring horde being no longer fast (doubly so without mycetic spores) compared to other armies, nor horde (GW's genius 'let's make unit cheaper by making it much worse and its upgrades much more expensive' method so prevalent in 6th edition), can't take allies, has little viable AA (crone being cute but without interceptor, well...), and you start wondering why Cruddace hates them so much. One of the above issues wouldn't make them non-viable. All of them at once and it starts to look like GW hates profits unless made on sale of humanoid xenos.

[Closet_Skeleton]

I'd say it's worse, save for maybe one or two units. Sisters seem to mostly lost options in it

My brother's playing experience reckons its a little better, even though some of the changes look like nerfs (and the Saint Celestine ones definitely are). You also no longer have nonsense like over-priced Immolators and Dominions that need to be max size to take 4 special weapons.

But my experience of them is that they can't handle Chaos Terminators and marine spam so I'm not impressed.

[Issabella]

Well, quad gun/icarus with BS5, Forge World (but WH40K legal) units, and Exorcist being far better AA tank (in a pinch) than everything Tyranids could field do mitigate it to big extent.



I'd say it's worse, save for maybe one or two units. Sisters seem to mostly lost options in it

I am giong to disagree the Exorcist while a very fine vehicle is not a reliable AA by any stretch of the imagination. d6 shots with a 1/6 chance to hit. Str 8 ap 1, if it hits. Just not that reliable.

[Jotunheim]

So, thoughts on GW's pretty hardcore stock dip, or is this not the place to discuss that?

[Cheesegear]

So, thoughts on GW's pretty hardcore stock dip, or is this not the place to discuss that?

It would be, but this place has a tendency towards GW bashing (as does everywhere) when anything like that gets brought up. So, as long as that doesn't happen, it's fine. But, I don't really trust some people.

Going over the stock ticker though, their stocks started going down about a month after Space Marines came out (October), and, this was about the time that Eldar and Tau had been dominating the meta for a few months and people were already quitting the hobby. Space Marines was supposed to be the chosen one, it wasn't.

Eldar and Tau dominate the holiday tournament season some more.

More mass bailings from the hobby.

I've brought this up before. It should have been expected. This is not news. That's all I have to say on the matter.

Maybe now we'll get 7th Ed. and a price drop.

[thedavo]

My meta is mostly marines, with one guard player and one Eldar player. The only game i've had which has given me the "how the hell do I win against this" feeling is the Eldar one.

[Wraith]

In other words: When the leading product that has, in the past, constituted 50% of your company's entire revenue (in this case, Space Marines) isn't the best army for people to go out and buy - or doesn't give enough reasons for olde time players to buy new stuff - you're suddenly going to find a big hole in your sales.

To then do that in a vaguely competitive setting and make the once-niche armies the best books, pandering to those who have spent the LEAST amount of money in your stores in the last 6 years while telling those who have spent the most, "Too bad! Go spend even more on a whole new Codex because your old one ain't happenin'!"... Well, no wonder you get accused of greed and insulting those who are now leaving in droves.

....I kinda hope that Codex: Orks comes out in the summer and absolutely rocks the casbah. Ork players more than deserve it

[Vaz]

If you want SM, play Horus Heresy lists. I can't get over that they are what SM should be, having got hold of Massacre.

I've decided that I want to make myself a Night Lords army, the lass got me a Caestus Assault Ram for Christmas, and a Flyer army has always appealed to me; just not so much with the 40K Flyers; the Stormraven and whatever the new one is just don't aesthetically appeal to me.

So, here's a 3K list that I want to use; to make it 2,4K, drop Curze and a Fire Raptor, and make the Primus Medicae a Praetor, and the Night Raptors assault marines. For 2K, don't run a flyer list, simply.

Konrad Curze; 435pts, Master of the Legion - Angel's Descent; Joins Night Raptors

Consul, Primus Medicae, Jump Pack, Boarding Shield, Nostraman Chainglaive, Trophies of Judgement = 135pts; Joins Night Raptors
Consul, Primus Medicae, Boarding Shield, Nostraman Chainglaive, Trophies of Judgement = 115pts; Joins Tac Squad
Consul, Primus Medicae, Boarding Shield, Nostraman Chainglaive, Trophies of Judgement = 115pts; Joins Tac Squad

Legion Tactical Squad, 9 Additional Members, BP+CCW, Legion Vexilla, Power Axe, Meltabombs = 265pts
-- Storm Eagle Assault Gunship, Twin-linked Multi-melta, Two Twin-linked Lascannons = 270pts
Legion Tactical Squad, 9 Additional Members, BP+CCW, Legion Vexilla, Power Axe, Meltabombs = 265pts
-- Storm Eagle Assault Gunship, Twin-linked Multi-melta, Two Twin-linked Lascannons = 270pts

Night Raptors, 10 Additional Night Raptors, 3 Meltagun, 4 Nostraman Chainglaives, Meltabombs = 440pts

Fire Raptor Gunship, Independent Turret-mounted Reaper Battery = 230pts
Fire Raptor Gunship, Independent Turret-mounted Reaper Battery = 230pts
Fire Raptor Gunship, Independent Turret-mounted Reaper Battery = 230pts

Curze and the Jump Pack Medicae are deployed with the Night Raptors. These deploy behind LoS blockers, and use the Night Lords "From the Shadows" for 6+ Cover (if there's nothing else), which stacks with Shrouded (gained from Curze along with Stealth) for a 3+ Save with FNP 5+ and a 4+ Cover Save.

Curze just blends AP2 - thanks to Night Lords "a talent for murder", his S6 AP2 Shred also gains a +1 to wound (invariably, 17 Jump Pack models, counting as twice that size for the purposes of this rule will outnumber any other squad). This means that even things like Wraith Knights will take some damage from him; thanks to his 7 I7 attacks; which I can hit and run from (along with Meltaguns). Just remembered he has Instant Death on a 6.

Combined with Shrouded (and Stealth), and Defensive Grenades from the Boarding Shield, and FNP, the unit is likely to get where it needs to, and be resilient from return attacks. The Chainglaive is a S+1 AP3 Rending Melee weapon, which also allows me to hurt things that are reasonable tough in combat; Curze can shred AP2, but a bit of Rending never did anybody any harm. The unit itself hurts melee a lot; the Chainglaives grant the unit a S5 Charge, which combined with Talent for murder means I'm typically wounding on 2's against MEQ's, and can hurt things like Wraithknights (on 5+). With Rending they're not completely blocked by Terminators either.

The added benefit is Curze's Fear causing abilities. While all Fear causers in the army (that is what the trophies of judgement are for; it grants Fear) cause the tests at -1, Curze and his unit do so at -4, as well as causing Morale Checks to units with LoS to Curze should he kill an enemy unit completely in CC.

Of course, they're a massive firemagnet, however, which is where Curze's Shrouding and the Medicae's FNP comes in useful.

The Tactical Squads are assault based. While they'd probably do better as Assault Squads for assault purposes, I'm relying on their 3 Attacks and +1 to wound from outnumbering (usually) to help them deal damage if they need to.

The Flyers are a massive pain to deal with; AV12 and 4HP, combined with a wide variety of weaponry can help shred vehicles like nothing else; Reaper Batteries are Twin-linked Heavy 4 Autocannons, which can fire independently of my Avenger Bolt Cannons (which just eat MEQ's and the like - Twin-linked BS4 with Strafing Run, S6 AP3 and Heavy 7 is amazing).

[Jotunheim]

Heresy armies are so freaking expensive though.

[Vaz]

Not majorly so. That one does, because Forgeworld, and because flyers, and because Primarchs.

But 56 infantry models is not that expensive. You can run a cheaper all Terminator Army, if you desire.

Possibly one of the more powerful lists out there.

A Terminator Squad with Pfists is still 200pts. 6 of them is 1200pts; the same as DA. A 3K list based around Wraithknights and Riptides is equally expensive.

[thedavo]

I want to do a terminator and dread-heavy Heresy Death Guard army. But I have no idea how well it would work.

[Trixie]

My brother's playing experience reckons its a little better, even though some of the changes look like nerfs (and the Saint Celestine ones definitely are). You also no longer have nonsense like over-priced Immolators and Dominions that need to be max size to take 4 special weapons.

But my experience of them is that they can't handle Chaos Terminators and marine spam so I'm not impressed.

Main problem is - their faith powers are now one use (zero use if you fail a test at Ld 8). 5th Edition sisters could reliably use 3-4 powers a turn, now you're lucky to get one

Also, they lost a lot of units, and while Immolator buff is welcome, you literally have only a single competitive choice in all slots now. If every single unit isn't a clone of something else, with maybe the exception of single troop mob, you're weakening your list.

Can't handle Terminators? Army with probably highest S8 AP1 weapon count in the game? How so?

But yeah, they can't handle a viable codex if enemy is barely competent at list building...

I am giong to disagree the Exorcist while a very fine vehicle is not a reliable AA by any stretch of the imagination. d6 shots with a 1/6 chance to hit. Str 8 ap 1, if it hits. Just not that reliable.

I said in a pinch. Sure, it's not reliable, but would be probably my top 3 of units without skyfire capable of bringing flyer down. It's hands down far better gun than every single non Apocalypse tyranid ground weapon.

More mass bailings from the hobby.

Yeah, as it turns out, the "hobby" is IMHO carried afloat by people who actually play the game. Hobbyists are all nice and well, but someone buying a single tank once every several months to make awesome diorama is simply not enough. GW needs people buying 3 warpturkeys, Dreadknight and five boxes of Paladins, or a Riptide plus dozen new Broadsides to stay competitive. Trying to distance yourself from gamers and competitive scene makes as much sense as Microsoft suddenly announcing MS Office will now be only available on Macs.

*sigh* I really like Warhammer, and current fluff is now one of the best ever, but 6th edition feels far worse than 5th. Codexes feel mostly like copy/pastes plus single new 'revenue' unit, games are slow, and every single book seems to contradict or supersede two others

Heresy armies are so freaking expensive though.

Sadly, quite a lot of stuff is on par now with GW, and looks much better...

SM army full of Mk VIII suits is kinda now my never to be fulfilled dream :(

[Caxton]

I'd like to make a few points about Sororitas.

They are not the most powerful army (obviously). However, I am of the opinion that their codex did in fact get stronger. The new faith system is odd. However, your chances of getting the faith power you need when you need it are greater. passing a ld test at ld 8 or 9 is much easier than the "roll a 6 or maybe a 5" method. Much more reliable. One use only sucks, but you ARE more likely to be successful, and if it is critical you can always have a Simulacrum Imperialis or Jacobus.

Just looking at faith though doesn't account for how the girls got better. The new option for 5 Battle Sisters is really great, opening up options to use (now cheaper) Immolators! Priests are actually good now, greatly aiding whatever squad they are attached to. Priests may even make the Sister Blob of 20 a reasonable choice. Overall, the nerfs are minimal (and for Celestine quite reasonable) and the buffs are pretty good. Plus you have a free 30 points to work with compared to the last codex since you are maxing out Exorcists!

So they are stronger, but they still don't have alot of options. Is there only 1 good choice per slot? I think not. Here is my list of good choices.

HQ:
Celestine (Yes, she's still great)
Jacobus (LD 9 hymns are great!)

Elite:
No, I disagree with the assessment that Sororitas have one viable choice per slot. This is self-evident as their Elites have no viable choices.

Troops:
Does 5,10, or 20 count?

Fast Attack:
Seraphims (Much cheaper weapons make for a real threat, hit and run is just gravy)

Dominions (Really awesome. The faith is bad for flamers, but you can melta vehicles in cover or with jink with impunity!)

Heavy Support:
Exorcist (Why did this get cheaper?)

Well it isn't too inspiring, as their choices max out at 2. But there's still alot of room for interesting and unique sisters lists.

[Cheesegear]

In other words: When the leading product that has, in the past, constituted 50% of your company's entire revenue (in this case, Space Marines) isn't the best army for people to go out and buy - or doesn't give enough reasons for olde time players to buy new stuff - you're suddenly going to find a big hole in your sales.

That's exactly correct. But then, also look at further loss of sales when Dark Angels players were told that their Codex was now useless, and Black Templars lost about 90% of their individuality, while the remaining 10% isn't even that good. I know at least two DA players who quit as soon as Marines came out and about four BT players who quit between the time it was announced that BT would be rolled into Codex Marines (It became obvious around January) and the time Marines actually came out (September).

Yeah, as it turns out, the "hobby" is IMHO carried afloat by people who actually play the game.

Probably the biggest lesson to come out of all of this, since GW has insisted for years that this is not the case. "We're a model company, not a games company." has finally proven a poor business model. If people have no reason to buy your stuff, then they wont.

Sisters Mono-Build after the nerf to Condemnors;

Saint Celestine
Uriah Jacobus

Sisters + Immolator
Sisters + Immolator
Sisters + Immolator

Dominions + Immolator
Dominions + Immolator

Exorcist
Exorcist
Retributors + Immolator

Aegis; Quad-Gun

Add Scoring units / Allies to suit.

[lord_khaine]

In other words: When the leading product that has, in the past, constituted 50% of your company's entire revenue (in this case, Space Marines) isn't the best army for people to go out and buy - or doesn't give enough reasons for olde time players to buy new stuff - you're suddenly going to find a big hole in your sales.

To then do that in a vaguely competitive setting and make the once-niche armies the best books, pandering to those who have spent the LEAST amount of money in your stores in the last 6 years while telling those who have spent the most, "Too bad! Go spend even more on a whole new Codex because your old one ain't happenin'!"... Well, no wonder you get accused of greed and insulting those who are now leaving in droves.

And honestly when i think about it then it makes me want to yell at those sniveling marine covards who used to play marines, but quite when the going got tough.

Eldar and Tau players have been stuck with an almost obselete codex for the most of the last 8 or so years, while different marine armies have been reigning supreme.
And when then finaly the meta shifts around and they are no longer kings of the hill, then they begins to desert in droves

[Voidhawk]

And honestly when i think about it then it makes me want to yell at those sniveling marine covards who used to play marines, but quite when the going got tough.

Eldar and Tau players have been stuck with an almost obselete codex for the most of the last 8 or so years, while different marine armies have been reigning supreme.
And when then finaly the meta shifts around and they are no longer kings of the hill, then they begins to desert in droves

Don't shout at them, and definitely don't convince them to stay. What they're doing might actually convince GW that it's strategy is moronic. Probably won't of course, but you never know.

[Cheesegear]

And honestly when i think about it then it makes me want to yell at those sniveling marine cowards who used to play marines, but quite when the going got tough.

No, no. No. No. No. Wrong. That's not the problem at all. You're assuming that most people only have and/or play one army.

When it was most dire in 5th Ed., the Imperial Guard Leafblower list, Parking Lot Rhinos and MSU Razorspam, there was always a way to beat that. Deep Striking Melta or simply mass Infantry with Lascannons, Dark Eldar would spoil everything by being Dark Eldar and doing their thing. Point is, even 'the best' lists in the game, could be beaten. You saw it all the time.

Now, in 6th Ed., 'competitive 40K' is dead. This isn't one guy in one tournament beating his small pond meta. This 'Eldar/Tau problem' is global, it's everywhere. It's not anecdotal anymore. It's proven facts. Torrent of Fire shows it unequivocally. Unless you play Eldar or Tau, you can not win a tournament. Period. If you don't like Eldar or Tau, fine. Play the 'meta-buster', there's always one. Guess what, the meta-buster is also Eldar or Tau. Fun, right?

Marines were going to be 'the chosen one', because nothing else works and GW couldn't possibly screw up Marines, right? Except that they did screw up Marines. Not only do Marines not work, but there are no alternatives, either. And that's why people quit after Marines. They were already about to quit, waiting to see if Marines could change things.

People didn't just quit because Marines didn't change anything.

[Ishikar]

Now, in 6th Ed., 'competitive 40K' is dead. This isn't one guy in one tournament beating his small pond meta. This 'Eldar/Tau problem' is global, it's everywhere. It's not anecdotal anymore. It's proven facts. Torrent of Fire shows it unequivocally. Unless you play Eldar or Tau, you can not win a tournament. Period. If you don't like Eldar or Tau, fine. Play the 'meta-buster', there's always one. Guess what, the meta-buster is also Eldar or Tau. Fun, right?

I think you're neglecting the screamer star build as a meta buster since Tau have nothing to really deal with that reliably and even Eldar have issues.

I will admit that Tau and Eldar are power codexes but I don't see how it's that different from when the Grey Knights were winning everywhere with with guaranteed 24" assaults on the first turn that would kill somewhere along the lines of 17 marines at I5 with no armor saves. It was a niche build but it was still frighteningly powerful.

I've played Tau for about 3 years now and I like the new codex but I still have some things I'm not happy about with it. Stealth Suits never see the table (made MUCH worse for the riptide), Vespids are pretty terrible, Fast Attack is dead outside of pathfinders for markerlights, still horribly limited in troops (seriously, make pathfinders troops move stealth suits to fast attack), Missile broadsides are absolutely better than rail rifle broadsides except vs. AV 14 so good luck buying new models. I enjoy the back story of the army and their whole theme and story (minus the new farsight dex, it took an attack of the stupid with suddenly demons and a life-stealing sword). I can see where Tau are powerful and the whole "bandwagon" cry annoys me since I saw GW go from one power codex to another where you could watch a Grey Knight player's army progression from Blue to Red/Grey to Metallic as they won through each change and it was still "fine and competitive" even if some armies were just "Play this exact build and hope you roll well" through the whole edition (of which Tau and Eldar both kinda fit in).

I know we all want to have our perfectly balanced game where everyone is on perfectly even footing but then you're just playing Chess. I mean look at Cryx in warmachine, Legion in Hordes, Germans in Flames of War, and High Elves in Warhammer Fantasy. Every large scale wargame has it's power armies that just trash the rest. I wish they could really nail the balance on them but it just won't happen. I feel that 40K is a better game than Warmachine as it lacks the "Gotcha!" element where one model literally can lose you the game and the imbalance between resources favors one system over the other. Also I've never felt completely helpless against a 40K army, I knew there were games I was going to lose but I always felt I could go for something to salvage points.

I guess this is getting a bit long but my basic point is that no game system is balanced for perfect competitive tournament play by virtue of Asymmetrical armies. Every game has always had an element of "pay to win" with buying the Meta leader or breaker and the current cycle has just agitated that to a much higher degree. It's regrettable to me that I got caught as a "Win at all costs player' by those who don't know me by virtue of the current meta (I don't allow take backs in tournaments but I'll let you fix mistakes in casual games and even throw the odd bone through playing in odd/mistaken ways). If you object to the tournament scene then you can still play for fun, if you don't like playing certain people then don't. I know "forging the narrative" has been mocked by the community but I'll give GW credit for coming out and saying "Here's our official rules but if you want to use their framework and play your own game with odd rules or scenarios then do it. It's a game, have fun."

[Wraith]

And when then finaly the meta shifts around and they are no longer kings of the hill, then they begins to desert in droves

That's too harsh. What you also have to remember is that Space Marines are supposed to be the Newbie army in a ridiculously high percentage of cases.

Newbies (which I'm using affectionately, over the alternative of 'n00b' - if you don't know the difference, shame on you!) are the lifeblood of the hobby, and Space Marines are supposed to be the hook that draws them in. Marines are the ambassadors to the game, and they should be there to inspire you to get further in, to look at other stuff, and spend more money.
But right now? If I'm going to drop about $200 minimum just to have what is even a vaguely playable amount of books and models, I expect some bang for my buck, not to be told "Okay, you've had these for a month but you're not going to win anything. Not until you spent another £200+ on something that we didn't tell you about and weren't using as our main promotion'.

These people feel betrayed. They give up on the hobby long term so GW doesn't make any more money from them, and then they put their new stuff on eBay for Long Time players to pickup cheap, taking even more money out of GW's tills.

I will admit that Tau and Eldar are power codexes but I don't see how it's that different from when the Grey Knights were winning everywhere with with guaranteed 24" assaults on the first turn that would kill somewhere along the lines of 17 marines at I5 with no armor saves. It was a niche build but it was still frighteningly powerful.

This is the difference. Even at it's most prolific, Grey Knights was never all 5 of the Top 5 places in nearly every competition, and as good as it might have been, people weren't rushing out to buy them because they represented a shot at glory.

Like Daemons now, I think. They're a meta-buster, sure, but they're not an inherently 'great' Codex - you're taking the army for that one specific combination of units that are good at upsetting other players. Like Grey Knights, I don't think it's anywhere near as popular as Tau, Eldar or Taudar, who people are going out of their way to get because they are as a whole very powerful books.

I know we all want to have our perfectly balanced game where everyone is on perfectly even footing but then you're just playing Chess.

I agree with you whole-heartedly. Sides should be slightly unbalanced in favour of one playstyle or another, that's where you get tactics and thematic armies both. That's just sensible.
I think the argument here is not that Tau and Eldar should be made worse, but that every other army - barring one or two fortunate, atypical units such as Screamer-stars and (once, if not necessarily as much nowadays) Nob Bikers, for example - should be made better in order to level the playing field. As it stands, while Tau have some pretty dud units, the ones that do work have excellent synergy that other books don't match.

Trying NOT to make this sound like "your book is broken and you should feel bad!" because I'm not one for that sort of rant.

[Cheesegear]

I think you're neglecting the screamer star build as a meta buster since Tau have nothing to really deal with that reliably and even Eldar have issues.

I guess, ultimately, if Tau and Eldar can 'weather the Warp Storm' (heh, puns), and hold stuff in Reserves or wait until the Grimoire fails and then FIRE EVERYTHING! then they do have a chance because at the end of the game, Daemons' Scoring presence is really bad. Especially because for the first three or four turns, the Tau/dar player didn't even shoot the Screamers and focused down the Troops because that's how you win games.

but I don't see how it's that different from when the Grey Knights were winning everywhere with with guaranteed 24" assaults on the first turn that would kill somewhere along the lines of 17 marines at I5 with no armor saves.

1. Grey Knights, 2. MSU Razorspam, 3. Imperial Guard Leafblower, 4. Grey Knights, 5. Grey Knights

is very different to

1. Eldar, 2. Eldar, 3. Tau, 4 Daemons, 5. Tau

I feel that 40K is a better game than Warmachine as it lacks the "Gotcha!" element where one model literally can lose you the game and the imbalance between resources favors one system over the other.

At least in War Machine, the army you paid for (and lost with) costs around $200 for 25-30 Points. The army in 40K that you paid for and lost with costs around $600 for 1750 Points - maybe more in a few cases!

Newbies (which I'm using affectionately, over the alternative of 'n00b' - if you don't know the difference, shame on you!) are the lifeblood of the hobby, and Space Marines are supposed to be the hook that draws them in.

Currently, that 'hook' is Dark Angels and Chaos Marines. And when little Billy goes online to find out what he should do with his Dark Vengeance kit, he gets a response from [expletive deleted]-clowns telling him to sell of all his models and go collect a good army. And that should absolutely not be happening.

1. GW should make sure that the 'starter armies' are among the best in the game, and
2. The 40K community is largely a bunch of [expletives].

Not all the blame can be placed on why GW for why the community is a bunch shed hardware. I've read a few blogs recently (before the stock drop over the last few days, that is) about people who were quitting the competitive side of 40K, and just joining Narrative Events (which are a thing, apparently). The comments on said blog(s) are some variation of the following;

"I quit GW when 6th came out. I'm so much cleverer than you guys who wasted all your money, hur, hur, hur. Now I'm going to spend my weekends playing CoD and swearing at 14 year-olds. Anyone who still plays 40K is dumb." - paraphrased.

And that really, really upsets me. When a quote-unquote 'competitive' player announces that he only wants to play 'for fun in 2014', is told that he is dumb and he's not allowed to have fun.

Girlfriend and Parents: Why do you spend so much money on that stuff?
Me: Would you rather I spent all my money on alcohol like others in my peer group?
G&P: You keep spending as much money as you want!

I'm a real adult with a real income. Price hikes have never bothered me all too much because I also understand that GW is a business with shareholders. But, I believe that there is a responsibility on GW's part to make that expense worth it. "We're a models company, not a games company." was GW's party line that exempted them from that responsibility. That line officially (as of two days ago) is no longer a valid excuse. Which I hope wakes them up.

I don't want to go back to playing MtG again.

Does anyone remember how to summon Zorg to the thread?

[Artanis]

Girlfriend and Parents: Why do you spend so much money on that stuff?
Me: Would you rather I spent all my money on alcohol like others in my peer group?
G&P: You keep spending as much money as you want!

Can I sig this?

[Eldan]

Interestingly, my local group is... 4 Tyranid players, 1 space wolf player, 1 dark angels player,. 2 Eldar players, 4 or 5 imperial guard players, 2 chaos space marines, 2 tau players and several necron players. Never had any vanilla marines. Also, since I'm one of the worst players around and I play mainly eldar, Eldar are seen as not very good. Since I lose regularly.

But now I have Tyranids too! Yaay! At least it's in a build-campaign with a very house-ruley GM who's handing out rules changes left and right. My hive tyrant has a Trygon's tunnel ability now, that should be fun.

[Grim Portent]

I can never understand the perspective of making an army just to win, especially when you got the plans for it off someone else. If it's not your creation then is it really yours after all? If you can copy a chess master move for move does that somehow make you a chess master?

A victory gained by rote acts or uninspired deeds is no victory for man, it is a victory for pettiness and petulant thought.

In other news, I've started work on making some chaos ogrynn out of a box of ogres. Going for a World Eater's auxilia theme rather than Dark Mech, the ogres maw belly plates are very suitable for the role. Does anyone have any ideas for how to make them look a bit more 40kish though? I was thinking of trying to wedge terminator guns into their hands but I don't think that it would suit particularly well.

[Cheesegear]

Can I sig this?

Go for it.

I can never understand the perspective of making an army just to win, especially when you got the plans for it off someone else. If it's not your creation then is it really yours after all?

You know some people can come to the same conclusions as anyone else, right? Stats in the Codex and rules in the rulebook are fixed. Anybody with a working knowledge of the game can come to the same conclusions that certain units are better than others. People also can field Riptides and Broadsides because they simply like Gundam Wing. Some players - like Ishikar mentioned - simply become 'that guy' by total accident. I'm also under the assumption that Tome is having the same problem since he's brought it up once or twice that I can remember.

It's very condescending (?) to think that everybody who has won a tournament with Eldar or Tau has net-listed. I'll also point out that the 'winning' lists are not - I repeat, not - using Seer Councils or more than three Wave Serpents, although some are. But the notable winners at 'big' tournaments are not using those lists.

Does anyone have any ideas for how to make them look a bit more 40kish though?

Guy in my meta has used Ork weapons, rather than Terminator weapons, it looks better, and you can use the Ork armour plating in various places. Green Stuff doesn't hurt, either.

Oh, and be sure to make like Rob Liefeld and add gratuitous amounts of pouches.

[Eldan]

Some people field Riptides and Broadsides for other anime-related reasons. Like the guy in the local shop who painted all his tau suits red and green with orange flames, gave them giant plastic-card sunglasses and custom drill-shaped close combat weapons (power axes, I think) and plays the Tau'gen Topp'a Gue'rren Lagann.

[Cheesegear]

Some people field Riptides and Broadsides for other anime-related reasons.

Oh, of course! One Riptide in my meta is blue with yellow flames with a red car for a head. It's amazing.

[Grim Portent]

You know some people can come to the same conclusions as anyone else, right? Stats in the Codex and rules in the rulebook are fixed. Anybody with a working knowledge of the game can come to the same conclusions that certain units are better than others. People also can field Riptides and Broadsides because they simply like Gundam Wing. Some players - like Ishikar mentioned - simply become 'that guy' by total accident. I'm also under the assumption that Tome is having the same problem since he's brought it up once or twice that I can remember.

It's very condescending (?) to think that everybody who has won a tournament with Eldar or Tau has net-listed. I'll also point out that the 'winning' lists are not - I repeat, not - using Seer Councils or more than three Wave Serpents, although some are. But the notable winners at 'big' tournaments are not using those lists.

I never said I assumed most lists to be taken from the net, but I know from personal experience that people in any competitive environment often wind up looking up combos that they hadn't thought of, happened all the time back when I played magic, so I consider it safe to assume that a lot of the Eldar lists are people hearing about the list concept and copying it to try it out and then just not changing back. The Tau Gundam/Markerlight lists strike me as more of an expected thing than jetbike councils, it is meant to be the Taus thing after all, whereas jetbike councils are a lot less intuitive.

Though what exactly is winning at 'big' tournaments if not the nigh immortal council?

Guy in my meta has used Ork weapons, rather than Terminator weapons, it looks better, and you can use the Ork armour plating in various places. Green Stuff doesn't hurt, either.

Oh, and be sure to make like Rob Liefeld and add gratuitous amounts of pouches.

Well, just looked up Liefeld, can't see many pouches, though I can see chest muscles that make GW shoulderpads look sane.

I'll see what I can find by way of Ork bits, thanks.

[Grim Portent]

giant plastic-card sunglasses

Tell that guy he has won Warhammer 40k. He has simply won.

[Tehnar]

The thing is with the new Eldar is that there are very few bad units in the codex. You can make a solid list just by picking stuff at random. This also makes their lists unpredictable, ie. there are no two to three builds that you will see in tournaments.

Other codecies are more predictable, so it is easier to know what they are doing and how to stop it.

This is compounded by the fact the Eldar had a weakish codex for a long time. Eldar players had to work hard to win.

I think we need some time for people to adjust to the new meta and come up with army lists that will deal with Eldar and Tau. Possibly some comp for tournaments has to be introduced.

[bluntpencil]

So, I'm toying with a Salamanders Drop Pod list. I, from a fluff perspective, really dislike mixing Companies of Space Marines, so there are no Sternguard. I know you might disagree, but still, I think this looks okay.

The idea is for the Command Squad, with He'stan, to drop in on the first turn and get an easy First Blood, either by popping a vehicle, or by using the four flamers and the heavy flamer to wipe out light infantry. Hopefully their Feel No Pain and 3++ will let them soak a lot of shots, and the lots of flamers will deter any assaults.

Should the enemy list lack fliers, the Stormtalons will come in on the first turn, escorting the Drop Pods in. This should limit the effectiveness of enemy Interceptor fire, as there will be four targets to shoot at once.

The Thunderfires will sit on the back line and bomb the crap out of hordes, the Land Speeders, probably kept in Reserve, will come in to hit enemy armour.

The real issue is a lack of boots on the ground, and deployment zone defence, but one can always leave a Drop Pod empty to keep a squad back.

Spoiler

Show

Vulkan He'Stan: 190

Master-crafted Krak Grenades

Command Squad: 235

4 Flamers and Meltaguns
4 Storm Shields
Drop Pod

Tactical Squad: 240

10 Marines
Flamer and Multi-Melta
Veteran Sergeant with Combi-Melta and Master-crafted Thunder Hammer
Drop Pod

Tactical Squad: 225

10 Marines
Flamer and Multi-Melta
Veteran Sergeant with Combi-Melta and Master-crafted Lightning Claw
Drop Pod

Land Speeder Squadron: 160

2 Land Speeders

2 Multi-Meltas each

Stormtalon Gunship: 125

Skyhammer Missiles

Stormtalon Gunship: 125

Skyhammer Missiles

Thunderfire Cannon: 100
Thunderfire Cannon: 100