Vote Up A Campaign Setting: Discussion Thread III

[afroakuma]

The most specific buff of concern, divine power, is always better for anyone who is not a fighter or other martial class. In other words, as a buff, it improves all party members who are not already good at combat to the same level, which still leaves your fighters in the lurch.

[Zeta Kai]

divine power

Yeah, I've never liked that spell, or the jerk who abused in one of my old campaigns just to show up the fighter. I'm not going to ban it from the setting though. I'll let DM's decide for themselves.

[afroakuma]

I'm not going to ban it from the setting though.

I thought that was my job?

[Zeta Kai]

I thought that was my job?

Put the ban-hammer down, Afro. People will expect me to stat it up.

[LordZarth]

Thane, the problem isn't really that CoDzilla > Fighter, the problem is that CoDzilla = Fighter + Cleric + Awesome.

[Zeta Kai]

Thane, the problem isn't really that CoDzilla > Fighter, the problem is that CoDzilla = Fighter + Cleric + Awesome.

Let's not forget the druid who decides to spend all her time Wild Shaped as a bear. And still casting spells.

The guy who wrote Natural Spell should be shot. What self-respecting game designer thought that was a good idea? The thing has no prerequisites besides being a druid.

[LordZarth]

The guy who wrote Natural Spell should be shot. What self-respecting game designer thought that was a good idea? The thing has no prerequisites besides being a druid.

Actually, Zeta, do you have any ideas for a NS fix? Because I think it's a really good idea in of that everyone (read: me) wants to be able to cast while in WS... but it's broken. So I ask: besides getting rid of it, can it be fixed? Limited?

[Alteran]

I can think of a few things, but I'm not sure how balanced they are.

Make it a feature of a prestige class? Maybe the capstone on a 5 or 10 level prestige class that focuses on wild shape.

Have harsher prerequisites for the existing feat. No multiclassing allowed, minimum skill ranks, whatever is achievable but not so easy or convenient.

Change the feat, give it more limits. For example, you can't use your two or three highest level spell slots. That means a 12th level Druid (highest spell level 6th) could only use 4th (or 3rd) level spells and lower while in wild shape.

[Lappy9000]

The guy who wrote Natural Spell should be shot. What self-respecting game designer thought that was a good idea? The thing has no prerequisites besides being a druid.

Amen.

I'm interested to (eventually) see the changes you guys have made to core. I dunno if it's been asked or not, but will pre-existing core prestige classes (shadowdancer, mystic theruge, etc) be changed, or left alone?

[Zeta Kai]

Actually, Zeta, do you have any ideas for a NS fix? Because I think it's a really good idea in of that everyone (read: me) wants to be able to cast while in WS... but it's broken. So I ask: besides getting rid of it, can it be fixed? Limited?

Well, the main problem is the fact that it's so good that any druid without it is clearly at a disadvantage. This could be balanced with tougher prerequisites. The requirements for taking NS are:

• Wisdom 13+
• Wild Shape class feature

Those two are basically asking you, "Are you a 5th level druid? Did you put any thought at all into what a druid's stats should be? Then here, cash in a feat to buy off one of the only restrictions of your class!"

Unless you made it to 5th level as a druid who has Wisdom as a dump stat, you're gonna have Wisdom 13+. I've played with/as/against dozens of druids, & the only druid that I've ever seen who couldn't qualify for this was a guy who purposefully tried to play a gimped character; waited until 9th level to get NS (what a sacrifice). It's a given; imagine a feat that let casters completely ignore arcane spell failure chances for armor. Now imagine that the feat's prerequisites were Summon Familiar class feature & Int/Cha 13+. You have every caster in full plate armor shooting off magic missiles like it was the 4th of July, & the game would go to hell before 7th level. That's the insanity that NS creates.

Unfortunately, cleaning up the entirely of WotC's mess cannot be done by one man, or even one Build Team. And we're focus on making a great campaign setting, not a 3E overhaul/total-conversion. That's just a little beyond our scope.

[afroakuma]

Amen.

I'm interested to (eventually) see the changes you guys have made to core. I dunno if it's been asked or not, but will pre-existing core prestige classes (shadowdancer, mystic theruge, etc) be changed, or left alone?

Arcane archer and Red Wizard are both out. Gate has been massacred. Thw Sor/Wiz spell list has taken a pounding.

[unosarta]

What will happen to the Horizon Walker Prestige Class?

I am assuming that it is being either thrown out/replaced, but gimping one of the only good Core melee PrCs is not very nice to fighter types out there [although the feats that you have made might make up for it.]

[Zeta Kai]

Arcane archer and Red Wizard are both out. Gate has been massacred. Thw Sor/Wiz spell list has taken a pounding.

For a lot of our changes, just remember folks: you voted for it. We're just implementing all the consequences of those votes.

What will happen to the Horizon Walker Prestige Class?

The HW stops at 5th level. Sorry, but there are no planes to explore.

[Lappy9000]

For a lot of our changes, just remember folks: you voted for it. We're just implementing all the consequences of those votes.

Naturally. I just want to know the nature of said consequences

[Juhn]

I take it that it's a good thing that none of these changes distress me at all? Of course, none of my campaigns really got to a high enough level for a lot of that stuff to be feasible, but I'm not the type who engages in ridiculous cheese as it is.

Actually, the one time I played a wizard, he spent his time beating people to death with his staff. Of course, that was the first time any of us had played the game, and none of us knew what we were doing.

[Set]

Well, the main problem is the fact that it's so good that any druid without it is clearly at a disadvantage.

When I first saw it, I thought it was a metamagic feat, and that the Druid would have to specifically prepare a spell in the beginning of the day as a Natural Spell or normally. If it was a Natural Spell, he could *only* cast it while Wild Shaped.

At lower levels, when the Druid might only have a single Wild Shape use per day, this would be a serious tactical choice. Which spells do I want to be able to cast *only* in animal form, and which ones do I want to be able to cast in my normal form?

That might be one solution.

Just ditching the feat entirely would probably be easier. Wild Shape functioning similarly to Tenser's Transformation, and being spellcasting-adjacent, works fine as well.

[Zeta Kai]

When I first saw it, I thought it was a metamagic feat, and that the Druid would have to specifically prepare a spell in the beginning of the day as a Natural Spell or normally. If it was a Natural Spell, he could *only* cast it while Wild Shaped.

At lower levels, when the Druid might only have a single Wild Shape use per day, this would be a serious tactical choice. Which spells do I want to be able to cast *only* in animal form, and which ones do I want to be able to cast in my normal form?

That, my friend, is a damn good idea. That's the way that it should've been, for sure. I'm gonna pass that along to Fax.

Druids kinda got ignored when it came to metamagic. Sure, they could take any of them if they really wanted to, but they weren't geared towards druid in any way. Metamagic is for wizards & sorcerers, & clerics who wanna break the game with cheese. You version of NS would've been a fabulous druid-oriented metamagic feat.

[afroakuma]

Concurred. Rather strongly.

[Sereg]

That is a good though not a new idea. I've even seen a suggestion that it should increase the spell level by 2 as though silenced and stilled. I suppose that depends on whether or not you decide to keep the original prereguisites.

[paddyfool]

I'd go for that. Natural Spell as a metamagic with a +2 modifier, to enable you to cast the spell in either form, or as a metamagic with a +1 modifier, to enable you to cast while shapeshifted only. You could call it "greater" and "lesser" if you liked, and give Druids some tricky tactical choices between them. So, let's see now:

Lesser natural spell (+1 metamagic): Any spell this is applied to may be cast while in wild shape, and only then. Prerequisites: Wis 13+, Wild shape class ability.

Greater natural spell (+2 metamagic): Any spell this is applied to may be cast either while in wild shape or while not. Prerequisites: Wis 15+, Wild shape class ability, Lesser natural spell.

Hmmm... I doubt the "greater" version would see much play. Should we give some other bonus to it? We could add "while cast in wild shape, a spell this is applied to lasts twice as normal as usual, as extend spell". An extended duration is generally quite useful for a druid, what with summoning/buffs, without being overpowered. We could also add extend spell to the prerequisites in that case, which would make this far from a shoe-in. Or am I overcomplicating things?

[Mercenary Pen]

Or am I overcomplicating things?

While this is very interesting, I really think that it deserves its own topic, rather than to stay here and derail the VUACS thread. besides, with a new, carefully labelled topic, you'll get more people to come in and critique this than just a portion of the VUACS mob.

[Zeta Kai]

While this is very interesting, I really think that it deserves its own topic, rather than to stay here and derail the VUACS thread. besides, with a new, carefully labelled topic, you'll get more people to come in and critique this than just a portion of the VUACS mob.

Agreed; please continue NS-related issues elsewhere. We're not changing it for VUACS anyway, as it is beyond our scope.

Next topic: Who's interested in magic rituals?

[Set]

Next topic: Who's interested in magic rituals?

[Raises hand.]

Rituals like the True Rituals from Relics & Rituals? Or similar to 4E? Or similar to those neat-o Incantations from Unearthed Arcana?

Heck, I cheated and made a 'reverse metamagic' feat that allowed a spellcaster to use a lower level slot to cast a spell by increasing the casting time by 10, and called it 'Ritual Spell'...

So many possible ways that one could adopt ritual magic into a game!

[paddyfool]

While this is very interesting, I really think that it deserves its own topic, rather than to stay here and derail the VUACS thread. besides, with a new, carefully labelled topic, you'll get more people to come in and critique this than just a portion of the VUACS mob.

Good idea - thank you!

[SlyGuyMcFly]

Agreed; please continue NS-related issues elsewhere. We're not changing it for VUACS anyway, as it is beyond our scope.

Next topic: Who's interested in magic rituals?

*Raises hand*

Are getting any divining rituals? Like entrail reading and the like?

[Comet]

Are getting any divining rituals? Like entrail reading and the like?

+1

The desert setting keeps reminding me of Dune, since I'm such a goddamn fanboy.
And no, please don't start shouting NO SANDWORMS, yet.

I'm talking about complex political intrigue, zealous conspiracies and mystical gifts of foresight that burden the leaders of men.
So, the questions:

-Do we have any shiny new divination rituals? (as Ferrus already asked)

-Are there any major NPCs known for their gift of prescience? (Oracle kings, treacherous desert-diviners, unearthly superbeings that see beyond the veil of time etc. etc.)

-All in all, would themes similar to Dune be proper for this setting? Have you guys read the book(s) and if so, has it been a source of inspiration at all?

Also.
Sand worms?

[Juhn]

I believe the response to this the last seventy times it was asked was something along the lines of "There are worms. Some of them are purple."

[afroakuma]

So, the questions:

-Do we have any shiny new divination rituals? (as Ferrus already asked)

Yes.

-Are there any major NPCs known for their gift of prescience? (Oracle kings, treacherous desert-diviners, unearthly superbeings that see beyond the veil of time etc. etc.)

Yes.

-All in all, would themes similar to Dune be proper for this setting? Have you guys read the book(s) and if so, has it been a source of inspiration at all?

I have not read the books, though through my usual process of osmotic curiosity I know the gist of it.

Generally speaking, I... don't believe so. This is really more Arabian Nights style fantasy, just with a bit grittier of a setting.

And to me, at least, Dune hasn't been an inspiration in any way whatsoever.

Also.
Sand worms?

What about them???

Like, these sandworms?

Juhn already stole my usual punchline.

[Juhn]

I didn't steal anything. Note the quotes.

[afroakuma]

Regardless, you spoiled my intention to use it.