Erfworld 70, page 64

[SevleyT]

I think this comic is good for showing us some of Wanda's weaknesses: overconfidence and pride. She seems completely oblivious to the possibility her spell could fail, which seems very likely. It is called suggestion, after all, not compulsion.

I think Jillian will break the spell. The past few comics with her have shown us nothing if not her anger at being labelled a traitor. I think her desire to prove herself will overcome the suggestion. As Sizemore said, she is no longer inclined to follow Wanda's suggestions.

If she does break the spell and croak the dwagons, it'll be good for the storyline. 1) It keeps Ansom in the fight. If Parson had nothing but victories, the comic would be fairly boring and Stanley/Parson would win handily. 2) It won't actually be Parson's fault. He should be able to escape the Tool's wrath because technically Wanda failed, not him. 3) I can easily see Wanda becoming very resentful of Parson. Until his arrival she was the only person close to the Tool who was competent. If she fails, he might not lose much respect in Stanley's eyes while he might rely on her less. Either way, it would probably create, in the Archons' words, a "stunningly dysfunctional group dynamic."

Just my two cents.

[israfel420]

How is this situation not Parson's fault again? I mean he took the risk of setting that trap to try to lure Ansom out when he could have simply stacked everything he had over the lake, fresh and wounded dwagons thereby keeping them essentially unnassaultable due to Ansom's lack of air power.

Now Parson has to hope that Wanda's spell doesn't fail because if it does, it was ultimately Parson who chose to put those Dwagons where they are.

What I really want to see is the following.

Parson screws up and gets disbanded by Tool who promptly sends him to the front. While fighting there it is learned that Parson is basically impervious to Erfworld combat mechanics since he doesn't have stats. That leads to an interesting situation where he is either overpowered and captured (as he cannot e croaked) or he is Goliath on the battlefield, able to single handedly wade through Ansom's troops like they were not existant.

I hope it is the second one as Parson will then be seen to "snack on Gwiffons and eat Marbits for breakfast". Either way, he will eventually come into contact with Ansom and then possibly may switch sides at which point Stanley will take the Arkenhammer on board a Dwagon and bail out of GK.

Personally I thikn this would be a cool way for the story to play out since the loser Parson becomes "master of the universe" as far as Erfworlders are concerned. He is after all the master of tabletop strategy games, and Erforld is nothing if not a table top strategy game.

[SevleyT]

Well ultimately it is Parson's responsibility, but Stanley might not see it that way. After all, if the spell had worked the way Wanda claimed, everything would have gone fine.

[Strengfellow]

[QUOTE=israfel420;2970242]I hope it is the second one as Parson will then be seen to "snack on Gwiffons and eat Marbits for breakfast".QUOTE]


OH YES, Sweet.

Must win.

ME WANTEE ME WANTEE.

[ag30476]

Hmmm... looking at the display in 60/4, there are two hexes Jillian could be in that are "over the lake" and "one hex away" from the wounded dwagons.

By my count, either of these hexes is four hexes away from Ansom's current location in the middle of the Dwagon Donut... by either a path that bypasses the wounded dwagons or by a path that leads her right into them.

Hmmmmm....

Speculation is just that but anyway your observation led me to speculate that...

Spoiler

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Wanda bypasses the dwagons and rides on to center hex to save Ansom. Ansom rides back to missed lake hex, destroys uncroaked warlords, saves seige (must happen), but gets himself and arkenpliers captured. Hilarity...and torture at Gowin Knob...and indecision in the coalition...and guilt in Jillian...ensue.

[warmachine]

A dwagon hunter submit to a Suggestion spell when faced with lots of easy targets? Can't see it.

[Lamech]

israfel420 I think there many more options for Parson if he goes out and fights. So here is some blantant speculation of possible strange things that could happen...

1) Like a normal human Parson body constantly heals, but like erfworld units when they heal all damage goes away. So Parson heals any nonleath injury instantly.

2) Parson only heals at dawn, like a normal human he bleeds. One cut and he rapibly starts to bleed out and dies.

3) Parson inflicts damage like he would on earth and those injuries have earthlike effects on the erfworlders. They can't heal most of the time. Bleed out and die.

4) If humans are units, Parsons come into contact with many unallied units. He's "fought" many "engagements" and he has "won" about half of them. As far as erfworlds concered he has max level for his combat stats. (His warlord bounus is still low because he never "commanded" any of the battles"

5) Either Parson can't attack and/or he can't be attacked.

6) He can walk through enemies with out starting a battle. Walks up and smashes commanders in the back of their head with a rock killing them. The other commanders see he has no stats and think he can't fight. Parson reapets this process wiping out all the commanders.

7) He can move at night. The enemy assumes he is friendly because unfriedlys would have fought durning the day and couldn't be in the camp at night. Parson strangles a large quantity of enemy units during night time.

8) The enemy has talked to the magic kingdom and realizes what he is. They break the spell on him and get his help.

9) He gets captured and Amson goes to interogate him. Parson isn't shackled because he's not a unit and can't fight or run away off turn. Parson takes the Arkenpliers. Kills Amson.

All of these are speculation. (in large quantities) I just wanted to show a few more things that could happen if he is sent out. Also were off topic a little bit but I wanted to respon to israfel420.

(I think I was ninja'd)

[Arameus]

I don't think 'snack on gwiffons, marbits for breakfast' is a prophecy, it's just part of what got him chosen. Gwifons are peeps, on which he snacks, and the marbits are the little marshmallows in the breakfast cereal in his world.

Or maybe you didn't mean it was prophetic and I'm just being a jerk.

[Vreejack]

I think this comic is good for showing us some of Wanda's weaknesses: overconfidence and pride. She seems completely oblivious to the possibility her spell could fail, which seems very likely. It is called suggestion, after all, not compulsion.

I think Jillian will break the spell. The past few comics with her have shown us nothing if not her anger at being labelled a traitor. I think her desire to prove herself will overcome the suggestion. As Sizemore said, she is no longer inclined to follow Wanda's suggestions.

If she does break the spell and croak the dwagons, it'll be good for the storyline. 1) It keeps Ansom in the fight. If Parson had nothing but victories, the comic would be fairly boring and Stanley/Parson would win handily. 2) It won't actually be Parson's fault. He should be able to escape the Tool's wrath because technically Wanda failed, not him. 3) I can easily see Wanda becoming very resentful of Parson. Until his arrival she was the only person close to the Tool who was competent. If she fails, he might not lose much respect in Stanley's eyes while he might rely on her less. Either way, it would probably create, in the Archons' words, a "stunningly dysfunctional group dynamic."

Just my two cents.

Your two cents are worth more than many.

1) is a no-brainer. It's too soon for Ansom to die unless Vinny is to become the new "alter-agonist." That would be a pretty dramatic move, however, and would deserve complete focus from the plot. I think too many other things are going on right now for that to get the full effect it deserves.

2) Parson's fault or no, the loss of the three warlords would be a greater disaster than the loss of the dwagons, anyway, and Tool & Co. would be equally screwed no matter who is blamed. If even one warlord survives, however, Parson will still have three warlords to raid the siege engines with in the future, and I think everyone is agreed that the siege must somehow be nullified to prevent the final battle from being a an easy victory for the alliance. Can Parson ride a dwagon into battle himself? Possibly, but if Ansom groups all his siege into one hex with all the air cover there Parson is probably not going to be able to do anything.

3) Wanda becoming resentful is a new idea, I think, which is given a lot of credence in this comic. Interesting. I don't get the impression that Wanda holds grudges, however, and the same seems true for Parson, who seems completely frank and guileless amongst his own company. It may be that Wanda is being irrationally prideful and will take offense at Parson and Sizemore's meddling, but it may also be that she has a secret reason for having so much faith in her control of Jillian Zamussels, one that she is unwilling to explain (not that she needs a reason for that). I don't think it is because she secretly loves Jillian, because she did not hesitate to throw her into harm's way, but--to spin my wild tale again--perhaps Wanda has done something very powerful to Jillian that involves recovering the Arkenpliers for her own--Wanda's--use. I wouldn't bet a whole lot of money on that idea but I like it all the same.

[nooblade]

Given:
1) Wanda's a "great" caster. She can cast her spell without booping up the basics.
2) The spell involved (not quite "suggestion") allows control over which of the subject's notions are acted upon (i.e. "go left" or "go right").
3) Deciding which direction to go in is purely up to Jillian's notions (Ansom didn't tell her exactly where to look).
4) Jillian does not have a special reason to search in the spot where the dwagons are actually at, i.e. "that spot's just one out of many".
5) There is a significant amount of space to cover, all which cannot all be checked by Jillian before the end of the turn.
----------------------------------------
6) Therefore Wanda should have caused Jillian to simply search in the wrong places for dwagons. Maybe she still will.

I just don't see how she could mess up something like that. Maybe there was something more certain about the spell, like directions from Wanda that cause the spell to work regardless of Wanda not actually giving telepathic orders (i.e. "I order you not to lead any attacks against stacks of dwagons"). If this were true, it would disprove point 2 and the whole thing would fall apart, but Wanda makes it sound like its the other way around and she has control based on her whims.

I'm thinking that Jillian knows the dwagons are there if she's one square away. They didn't have anything to hide under. Then again, they still have to rely on scouts, maybe the rules don't allow sight over water squares, or maybe the dwagons can conceal themselves somehow. The warlords certainly wouldn't mind getting a little wet, I think.

Not worth over-analyzing (might've already gone too far), I guess. We'll find out next strip.

[LordVader]

This must be a strategic wargamer like Parson's worst nightmare, and #1 "Avoid at all Costs!". Having to rely on an enemy to do as you think isn't exactly sound planning.

[TiamatRoar]

I love the group dynamic in this one. Now we're shown that there can be tensions in the Plaid tribe besides just Stanley vs Parson. Even then, it's nice to see Parson and Sizemore generally trying to be diplomatic about it.

[Thayus]

Hrm . . . I wonder if Parson should have put all the Dwagons into a single stack and parked them over the lake. I suspect ~50 Dwagons, over half un-wounded, led by three warlords, would have been just too powerful for Ansom, Vinnie, Jillian, the Archons, the two chump warlords, and 5 gwiffons to risk taking on.

-Thayus

[SteveMB]

Additionally, we've had the mechanics of veiling outlined in a general sense (though its actual in-game effects and effectiveness are still in some question).

It seems that you need a Foolamancer somewhere in the process, and also a Lookamancer in the stack to be veiled.

[Scientivore]

"You know nothing of the underpinnings of this spell!"

Simply a claim to superior mancer-fu, or a let-slip-in-anger reference to aspects of the "subtle control" that Wanda has not seen fit to disclose to anyone else?

Hehe! Looks like my latest lolerf was well-timed ("My Prisoner / She has a flavor"). As we suspected, it looks like Wanda's hold over Jillian is not just psychological and not just magic. It was satisfying to learn more about that, about veiling and about the Hunt. It also left me even more excited to find out what happens next!

[kreszantas]

The one big thing that is seemingly forgotten is Jillian is supposedly following Ansom's orders as to the search to the letter at least that is what she says and Webinar confirms that, so if she misses the 1 lake hex then it becomes painfully obvious that it will be due to Ansom's order that she misses not actually acting on her own "this time".

[SauroGrenom]

It seams likely to me that either Jillian is not under the influence of a suggestion (and Wanda is keeping a secret), or that Jillian will try to kill the dwagons but do it in a sub optimal way. We know she's already weakened herself by sending two commanders away. So she has several options to weaken herself further.

Considering the possibilities, she could decide at the last moment to scout more area, and split forces again. For example she could send the archons in one direction (to guard Ansom), and her gwiffons into another. Then a weakened stack of gwiffons and Jillian fly into a stack of 19 dwagons and 3 warlords. That's something her suggestion could make possible as a brash action, and she would be attacking with a minimal stack against foes who have 3 warlord bonuses and the maximal stack bonus. In such a situation, she'd croak a few dwagons, then herself be croaked. Consider how turned based warfare works... She and her stack of 5 gwiffons get 6 attacks, and take out 6 dwagons... Then the counter attack is 13 surviving A-dwagons and 3 warlords take her out. Heavy losses on both sides, but final victory for Parson.

[ag30476]

The one big thing that is seemingly forgotten is Jillian is supposedly following Ansom's orders as to the search to the letter at least that is what she says and Webinar confirms that, so if she misses the 1 lake hex then it becomes painfully obvious that it will be due to Ansom's order that she misses not actually acting on her own "this time".

But the lake is logical "hiding" place for the wounded dwagons to be - only the coalition's flyers can attack dwagons in the lake and Jillian and the fast flyers

Spoiler

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And perhaps Ansom and Vinny?

are the only flyers that can reach the lake. So once found, the entire lake should be searched - that is the lake should be searched to its perimeter. If this is not done, then Ansom and the coalition will see that Jillian missed a spot.

Spoiler

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But what if Jillian does not exhaust her move searching but searches until she has just enough move to get to Ansom and make a stand. That might be give her a rationale to avoid the dwagon hex.

[Scientivore]

3) Wanda becoming resentful is a new idea, I think, which is given a lot of credence in this comic. Interesting. I don't get the impression that Wanda holds grudges, however, and the same seems true for Parson, who seems completely frank and guileless amongst his own company. It may be that Wanda is being irrationally prideful and will take offense at Parson and Sizemore's meddling, but it may also be that she has a secret reason for having so much faith in her control of Jillian Zamussels, one that she is unwilling to explain (not that she needs a reason for that). I don't think it is because she secretly loves Jillian, because she did not hesitate to throw her into harm's way, but--to spin my wild tale again--perhaps Wanda has done something very powerful to Jillian that involves recovering the Arkenpliers for her own--Wanda's--use. I wouldn't bet a whole lot of money on that idea but I like it all the same.

Being loved by someone is a powerful thing in its own right, and one that Wanda could be excused for keeping secret even if her own feelings for Jillian aren't exactly the same.

[SteveMB]

But the lake is logical "hiding" place for the wounded dwagons to be.... So once found, the entire lake should be searched - that is the lake should be searched to its perimeter. If this is not done, then Ansom and the coalition will see that Jillian missed a spot.

Remember, Ansom's side is limited by the fog of war. If she deliberately misses a spot (and separates from the Archons temporarily while doing so to cover it up more territory), how is Ansom going to know?

The real problem, of course, is that Jillian has no knowledge of where the wounded dwagons actually are, either to find them or to avoid them.

[kreszantas]

Remember, Ansom's side is limited by the fog of war. If she deliberately misses a spot (and separates from the Archons temporarily while doing so to cover it up more territory), how is Ansom going to know?

The real problem, of course, is that Jillian has no knowledge of where the wounded dwagons actually are, either to find them or to avoid them.

Exactly my point Steve if the orders were not to scout that hex where the dwagons ARE then she has nothing to cover up, going for more territory at this point would violate the suggestion thus leaving a close brush by as a PO'ed Stanley points at the table.

[SteveMB]

I think this comic is good for showing us some of Wanda's weaknesses: overconfidence and pride. She seems completely oblivious to the possibility her spell could fail

"Seems" is a good word. Is she actually that certain of it, or is she putting on a good front for the Tool?

I think Jillian will break the spell. The past few comics with her have shown us nothing if not her anger at being labeled a traitor. I think her desire to prove herself will overcome the suggestion.... If she does break the spell and croak the dwagons, it'll be good for the storyline.

Another possibility is that she breaks the spell but fails to croak the dwagons -- they're wounded, but there are quite a lot of them. In that case, I'd expect her to be recaptured....

[ChowGuy]

Given:
<snip>
It would disprove point 2 and the whole thing would fall apart, but Wanda makes it sound like its the other way around and she has control based on her whims.

OK, I accept that your format is intended to reflect a logical argument. However, as you infer I should out that your precepts are not "givens" in the sense that they have already been proven. There are assumptions only, and thus until they all are demonstrated correct, not just @2, your conclusion cannot be treated as a proven.

With that in mind, let us examine them one by one.

1) Wanda's a "great" caster. She can cast her spell without booping up the basics.

Accepted provisionally, as this is stated by Stanley, (though he may be wrong, and Wanda herself disputes his use of it as an argument.)

2) The spell involved (not quite "suggestion") allows control over which of the subject's notions are acted upon (i.e. "go left" or "go right").

That's hardly a "given," especially as Wanda explicitly says "not commands." There's no evidence at all that her influence extends to that level of detail, nor that it is in anyway "real time." This is of course the point you yourself concede is a weak link.

3) Deciding which direction to go in is purely up to Jillian's notions (Ansom didn't tell her exactly where to look).

To an extent. But - it presumes that Ansom in fact told her to look (for the A-Dwags) in the first place. This has not been canonically established. It has been implied that she is/has in fact disobeyed orders. If she is currently doing so (and we've not seen her do so before) and is "looking for" A-Dwags, those must not have been her orders. Thus being or not being told "where to look" is irrelevant.

4) Jillian does not have a special reason to search in the spot where the dwagons are actually at, i.e. "that spot's just one out of many".

Again, not a "given" that Jillian is "searching" for the A-Dwags at all. All we know is that she's passing over the lake, and has entered a hex one away from them. We do not know from the strip what her course or intended purpose is. Any assumption otherwise is just that - an assumption, and not a "given."

5) There is a significant amount of space to cover, all which cannot all be checked by Jillian before the end of the turn.

Again presupposes an intention (checking for Dwagons) that has not been established.

6) Therefore Wanda should have caused Jillian to simply search in the wrong places for dwagons. Maybe she still will.

And there's the biggest assumption of all, that Wanda even could have done such a thing.

She did not know where the Dwagons would be when she was last with Jillian, Parson had not even devised the plan yet.In order for her to "cause" Jillian to "search in the wrong place" now, she would have to have a real-time thinkagramic link to her. But she is not a Thinkamancer, she is a Croakamancer, whose hobby is interrogation and "persuasion" (and who has some talent in it), but she has no interest in other forms of magic. Nothing has been said or demonstrated to indicate she has such an ability

Nor in fact did Parson discuss the plan with her or obtain her input on the advisability of it vis-a-vis the placement with respect to Jillian before putting it in action. He started to, but she brushed him off and simply told him to do whatever he had in mind as soon as possible, as she had to prevent Stanley from disbanding him.

When in fact she found out what he had done, she seemed not only surprised, but troubled. I suspect it was not because she was afraid Jillian would "break the spell" and hunt the Dwags contrary to her "suggestion", but because of her relative positioning with respect to the Dwags was liable to bring her into contact with them because of her suggestion.

I submit, as I have all along, that the "preceptions" and "emotions" that underpin the spell have nothing to do with Jillian's relationship to Wanda, but to Ansom himself. The "Suggestion" being that, if she perceives Ansom as being in imminent danger, she should abandon any other mission and head directly toward him. Do not pass GO, Do not collect 200 Schmuckers. Which she now is. On a course which rather inconveniently is taking her straight over the lake where the Dwags are.

Now the question is, will her "suggestion" to ignore all else be strong enough to keep her from attacking the B-Dwags even if she spots them, something she would not normally do, or will her killer instincts take over. Sizemore fears the latter. Wanda seems to think the underpinnings, which I suggest are the emotional attachment to Ansom that she has tried to deny (weakness: knowing what she wants), will win out. A perhaps manipulated, perhaps implanted, attachment which Wanda herself knows of but the depths of which has perhaps taken pains to conceal. "You heard nothing but the screams."

Not worth over-analyzing (might've already gone too far), I guess. We'll find out next strip.

Indeed we may.

[Mogster]

Wow. Look at Wanda's face in panel 8: she's never shown that much emotion before (tho' the interrogation came close.) Doesn't she want to keep the "intimacy" of her relationship with Jillian a secret? She's coming dangerously close to giving that away...

If she does break the spell and croak the dwagons, it'll be good for the storyline. 1) It keeps Ansom in the fight. If Parson had nothing but victories, the comic would be fairly boring and Stanley/Parson would win handily. 2) It won't actually be Parson's fault. He should be able to escape the Tool's wrath because technically Wanda failed, not him. 3) I can easily see Wanda becoming very resentful of Parson. Until his arrival she was the only person close to the Tool who was competent. If she fails, he might not lose much respect in Stanley's eyes while he might rely on her less. Either way, it would probably create, in the Archons' words, a "stunningly dysfunctional group dynamic."

Just my two cents.

But it is Parson's fault, since he's the one that ran the turn and placed the dwagons where they are. Wanda wasn't even around. As for her becoming resentful... I'm not so sure. She hasn't shown any resentment so far that I've noticed, and she went to great lengths in #54/48 to keep him from being disbanded. I'd bet she sees Parson as just another "Tool" to be used. She might try to have Parson eliminated after he's served his purpose, but not out of animosity. It's just business.

[Harr]

Why the ---- would Parson express frustration at the nature of Turn Based Warfare? He's supposed to be a veteran tabletop strategy gamer. He should be enjoying the turn-wait. That part seemed way off-character for me.

Other than that, pretty good strip, very good cliffhanger, and very smooth way to explain the mechanics involved in veiling.

[TiamatRoar]

Why the ---- would Parson express frustration at the nature of Turn Based Warfare?

Because each turn lasts an ENTIRE DAY. I love playing strategy games and I love playing Civilization (one of the longest turn-based games of all) yet I'd go MAD if I had to play a strategy game under those conditions. I mean, really, 12 hour wait in between turns? That's RIDONKULOUS.

[Zeku]

I hope the comic doesn't delve into homosexuality, or if it does, I hope that it's addressed with subtlety, like any human emotion should be. This comic doesn't have any severely adult themes like pclips, and I've been hoping it would stay that way. To be honest, media is saturated with this subject lately. I've noticed that artists and storytellers are handling our culture's changing perspective on homosexuals with all the poise of a enraged preacher.

Also, Parson definitely has stats. They are low. Really low. It's back quite a bit in the archive, soon after he arrived. It was Stanley noticing that Parson's overall bonus to his units was pathetic. I can't find it.

[SteveMB]

She did not know where the Dwagons would be when she was last with Jillian, Parson had not even devised the plan yet.In order for her to "cause" Jillian to "search in the wrong place" now, she would have to have a real-time thinkagramic link to her. But she is not a Thinkamancer, she is a Croakamancer, whose hobby is interrogation and "persuasion" (and who has some talent in it), but she has no interest in other forms of magic. Nothing has been said or demonstrated to indicate she has such an ability

Nor in fact did Parson discuss the plan with her or obtain her input on the advisability of it vis-a-vis the placement with respect to Jillian before putting it in action. He started to, but she brushed him off and simply told him to do whatever he had in mind as soon as possible, as she had to prevent Stanley from disbanding him.

All good points. All the information we have so far indicates that she couldn't possibly be steering Jillian away from the wounded dwagons.

When in fact she found out what he had done, she seemed not only surprised, but troubled. I suspect it was not because she was afraid Jillian would "break the spell" and hunt the Dwags contrary to her "suggestion", but because of her relative positioning with respect to the Dwags was liable to bring her into contact with them because of her suggestion.

I submit, as I have all along, that the "preceptions" and "emotions" that underpin the spell have nothing to do with Jillian's relationship to Wanda, but to Ansom himself. The "Suggestion" being that, if she perceives Ansom as being in imminent danger, she should abandon any other mission and head directly toward him. Do not pass GO, Do not collect 200 Schmuckers. Which she now is. On a course which rather inconveniently is taking her straight over the lake where the Dwags are.

Hmmm... that suggests another interpretation for the implied comment (Wanda presumably saying something negative about Ansom, to which Jillian replies "Oh, c'mon, he's not that bad....") just before we join the conversation on page 38.

How better to reinforce the suggestion "You need to protect Ansom personally, regardless of other priorities or orders" than to foster the impression that Ansom needs Jillian to take care of him because he is too feckless to properly take care of himself?

[Thayus]

Y'know, if Jillian is riding to Ansom's rescue, then depending on her pathing she might go right past the dwagons without ever coming into actual contact with them.

-Thayus

[JazzManJim]

Now that was a very, very good strip.

Nice job, guys!!