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Thread: 3rd Tier Paladin (PEACH)
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2009-12-05, 12:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 3rd Tier Paladin (PEACH)
Primary thoughts on Tier 3 comparison: (not complete, just initial notes)
There are 11 classes in the Tier 3. Of these 11, 6 have access to 9th level Spells or Maneuvers. Let's call these 9th level abilities. That right there tells us something important, a warning sign perhaps, which is that we are going to rewrite a class that does not have access to 9th level abilities to compete on the same level with classes that do. These are the classes that I feel are the most powerful in Tier 3.
Of the classes that don't have 9th level abilities, the Bard has 6th level spells and Buffs as a class ability. The Duskblade has 5th level spells that complement it's full bab, favored fort and will, and other magic/combat related class abilities. The Wild Shape Ranger gets limited Wild Shape, 4th level spells, good skills, full bab, favored fort and reflex, and other abilities (good skills, evasion, etc). I'm not that familiar with the Factotum, but my understanding is that it can use a limited per encounter resource to duplicate other classes abilities.
For the purposes of the evaluation I'm going to leave the Factotum out because 1) I don't fully understand it, and 2) From what I do understand I don't know how you'd compare it to the standard classes. Last, I'm not sure what the Psionic Warrior is. Is that supposed to be the Psychic Warrior?
Another way to break down the grouping of Tier 3 is to place them in categories, such as Combat, Magic, & Support. I would place the Crusader, Swordsage, Warblade, Ranger, and Duskblade in the Combat category. Beguiler, Binder, and Dread Necromancer are in the Magic category. Bard and Factotum are Support.
I think the revised Paladin would fit in a combination Combat/Support role. A lot of the new abilities provide protection to other characters, and this would fall into the Support classification. However, some of them are strictly offensive, like the Blade of Virtue and Scouring Light. These abilities, along with the standard combat prowess of the Paladin, place it in the Combat category.
So we can evaluate the defensive and supportive aspects of the revision according to the abilities of the Bard and Factotum, and the offensive aspects of the revision according to the abilities of Crusader, Swordsage, Warblade, Ranger, and Duskblade.
These are just my initial thoughts on how to evaluate the abilities. What follows next will be an examination of the abilities themselves, looking for comparisons between these classes, and at similar abilities using the same mechanics (lay on hands healing, burning turn undeads for X ability, etc).
edit:
Addendum: It appears that an understanding of the Factotum will be necessary, so I'll have to research that. If someone is already familiar with that class and wants to help, that would be nice.
Also, it occurred to me that some of the Devoted Spirit and White Raven maneuvers/stances could be considered Support, so the Paladins support abilities will have to be compared to those as well.
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2009-12-05, 12:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 3rd Tier Paladin (PEACH)
Divine Providence
Starting at the 4th class level, the Paladin may expend a Turn Undead attempt to gain damage reduction, and a bonus to his AC, SR and all saves equal to his class level and Charisma modifier as a Free Action. This ability can be used in response to any attack, spell, event or effect, but its use must be declared before any rolls are made. If the Paladin succeeds on any save that normally has a partial effect on a success, it instead has no effect. The Paladin may opt to roll 2d20 for any saving roll made while Divine Providence is active, selecting the outcome of his choice.
The effects of this ability last until the end of the Paladin's next turn.
The first level this ability is available, it is not inconceivable to have a total modifier for this ability equal to +7 (+4 from level, +3 from Charisma modifier). In contrast to a similar ability gained at similar levels by the Swordsage, the Zephyr Dance counter is a 3rd level maneuver that grants a static +4 AC vs a single attack. Available one level before a martial adept could access that maneuver, Divine Providence already offers a better bonus for the same duration of the ability.
Likewise, the feat Divine Armor grants a static DR 5/-- for a single turn when utilizing the same mechanic as Divine Providence, and the feat is not available until a level after Divine Providence comes into play. Furthermore, the feat requires a divine caster level of 5, which a Paladin would not have until 10th level. So Divine Providence is more powerful and comes into play far earlier than Divine Armor would for a normal Paladin.
To replicate the dual d20 rolls, we can look at two separate ablities. There is the feat Survivors Luck that allows an immediate action reroll of a failed saving throw, and the 5th level maneuever Iron Heart Focus allows the same with the additional caveat that the second roll must be taken even if it's worse.
The luck feat requires character level 9, and the manuever cannot be learned until level 10. So again, Divine Providence comes into play far earlier than these abilities that only replicate a single aspect of Divine Providence, and do so worse than Divine Providence, in that they do not provide a bonus on the roll, and one of the abilities requires you to take the lower roll.
Another aspect of Divine Providence that can replicated with a manuever, and perhaps my biggest concern with the ability, is the numerical value of the bonus. The 8th level maneuver Diamond Defense offers a bonus on a saving throw equal to the character's initiator level. Even here, however, Divine Providence is better than Diamond Defense because Divine Providence is not just Paladin level, but Paladin level plus Charisma modifier. Diamond Defense is not available until 15th level.
If we were to combine all these abilities into a single ability, the Divine Armor feat, Zephyr Dance, Iron Heart Focus, & Diamond Defense, the Paladin's Divine Providence ability would still be better, because it offers the same bonus to the different aspects (AC, DR, SR, & Saves) at the same time, all for the cost an immediate action and a turn undead attempt.
My recommendation:
- Change the bonus to Charisma modifier.
- Have the Paladin choose a single ability to be affected per activation.
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2009-12-05, 01:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 3rd Tier Paladin (PEACH)
Feats defy comparability due to the fact that they are typically less powerful (besides many of options of comparison here being inherently underwhelming) due to the relative ease of accessibility.
The Charisma modifier as a bonus alone makes it too weak for what is a fairly involved, non-dip class ability. At worst, half the class level should be added to the Charisma modifier.
I can agree on choosing one bonus, but save rerolls, and partial outcome mitigation would and should apply in conjunction with the save bonus.Last edited by Surrealistik; 2009-12-05 at 01:09 PM.
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2009-12-05, 01:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 3rd Tier Paladin (PEACH)
I included the feat, Divine Armor, in there to further express the fact that Divine Providence as a single ability is better than if you were combine 3 separate maneuvers and a feat. Those 3 abilities come from classes in Tier 3, therefore the ability should be comparable to the abilities of other Tier 3 classes instead of outstripping them, even when combined.
If the bonus were flat Charisma modifier, this is what it would do. The Paladin would have the ability to add their Charisma modifier to his or her Armor Class, Spell Resistance, Damage Reduction, or all three Saving Throws, on the fly as an immediate action, and allows a second d20 roll.
One of the Paladin's core abilities, Divine Grace, adds the Paladin's Charisma modifier to all saving throws. My revision of the ability turns it into an adaptable Divine Grace, even allowing the doubling of Charisma bonus to saves. I find it hard to believe that such an ability can be considered weak, when many people dip into Paladin for 2 levels just to get Divine Grace in it's unadaptable form.
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2009-12-05, 01:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 3rd Tier Paladin (PEACH)
Divine Grace has several important advantages over Providence. One major one is that it is continuous. Another major one is that it requires no Turn Undead expenditures. Further, it has a significantly lower class level requirement. All of these elements render my rebalanced Providence on roughly even footing with Divine Grace.
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2009-12-08, 02:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 3rd Tier Paladin (PEACH)
Made extensive revisions to Blade of Virtue, and Providence.
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2010-01-03, 09:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 3rd Tier Paladin (PEACH)
Starting at the 10th class level, he emits a continuous Circle of Protection Against Evil effect.Starting at the 18th class level, the Paladin becomes immune to Mind Affecting spells and abilities.
Such is the Paladin's inner strength and vitality that it radiates outwards from his being, a potent spiritual essence that infuses his allies with a measure of his divine resilience. Non-evil allies (excluding the Paladin) within 5 x the Paladin's Charisma modifier feet receive a bonus on all saves against Poison, Disease, Exhaustion, Fatigue and Mind Affecting spells and effects equal to his Charisma modifier (minimum 1) to a maximum equal to his class level. Note that this portion of the ability is a supernatural effect.
I'm not a big fan of immunity to mind affecting spells in general. Enchantments get shafted that way. Yeah, I know, arcane casters don't need the lovin', but enchantment is a nice fun school, or would be, if immunity to it weren't so easy for everyone to get. Of course, that cat's already out of the bag, and not much one can do about it.
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2010-01-04, 05:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 3rd Tier Paladin (PEACH)
There's a little bit of overlap, but the protections afforded by PFE are substantially different from actual Mind Affecting immunity. As for the immunity itself, by the time you get it, it's generally likely your party has ready access to it in the form of a spell or item anyways.
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2010-06-11, 05:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 3rd Tier Paladin (PEACH)
There are a few things I wanted to ask. (the mods gave me permission. No need to report this)
1. When you kill something with Scouring light is the disintegration automatic or do you get to choose?
2. Can you use Scouring light multiple times with higher BAB?
3. Is the damage of the ray version of scouring light halved on a succesful save or just the damage of the area version?
4. is the immunity to fatigue and exhaustion just for spells or immune to it period?
I also question the use of divine aegis providing half the SR to your allies. It doesn't seem like it'll ever be high enough to matter for your allies. At the point in the campaign that I'll get it my allies will get at most 16 which means almost any spellcaster we face automatically succeeds.
Also, is there any specific reason you got rid of the remove disease? I don't really care or miss it I just wanted to know.Last edited by Mystic Muse; 2010-06-17 at 04:00 PM.
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2010-06-17, 10:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 3rd Tier Paladin (PEACH)
Automatic.
2. Can you use Scouring light multiple times with higher BAB?
3. Is the damage of the ray version of scouring light halved on a succesful save or just the damage of the area version?
4. is the immunity to fatigue and exhaustion just for spells or immune to it period?
I also question the use of divine aegis providing half the SR to your allies. It doesn't seem like it'll ever be high enough to matter for your allies. At the point in the campaign that I'll get it my allies will get at most 16 which means almost any spellcaster we face automatically succeeds.
Also, is there any specific reason you got rid of the remove disease? I don't really care or miss it I just wanted to know.
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2010-06-17, 10:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 3rd Tier Paladin (PEACH)
Thank you for the answers.
Now, I just have to make sure my group doesn't get mad when I disintegrate the red dragon we're facing. (only reliable way to hit the darn thing.)
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2010-06-18, 10:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 3rd Tier Paladin (PEACH)
Hey no problem man, glad to see someone's making use of my homebrew. Let me know how the class is working out! I'd really appreciate the feedback, as well as recommendations for things to change/improve based on usage.
Last edited by Surrealistik; 2010-06-18 at 10:15 AM.
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2010-06-18, 10:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 3rd Tier Paladin (PEACH)
If I can throw in my 2 cents,
Assuming it doesn't overpower the class, why not change the Smite Evil mechanic from 3.5's version to Pathfinder's?
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2010-06-18, 11:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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2010-06-18, 11:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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2010-06-18, 02:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 3rd Tier Paladin (PEACH)
It's working out fairly well so far. I Can't use it to its full potential because I'm playing with an archer ranger and a Monk but it's been good so far. Although, I think our Monk is questioning his class choice about now. Here's hoping he chooses something so that I can use this class to its full potential.
Once we do reach level 15 (Which will be a while) I'll inform you of how divine aegis goes.Last edited by Mystic Muse; 2010-06-18 at 02:54 PM.
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2010-06-18, 03:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 3rd Tier Paladin (PEACH)
I like the bypassing of Damage Reduction, and double damage versus Evil Outsiders and Undead. The latter will be introduced at the first class level, the former will be gained at the fourth (supplanting part of the benefits of Greater Smite at the 8th).
Originally Posted by Kyuubi
As for the update at L15, I'm looking forward to it. Be sure to keep me posted on notable developments/observations in the interim though!
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2010-06-18, 04:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 3rd Tier Paladin (PEACH)
I must say, I do enjoy gift of the martyr and divine aegis. I haven't had much chance to use divine providence or blade of virtue yet. In the current battle it's just more cost effective to use Scouring light. Greater smite has been useful.
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2010-06-18, 06:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 3rd Tier Paladin (PEACH)
Yeah, DP is more of a panic button, and not intended for regular use; Blade of Virtue not seeing play is a little more problematic. That said, keep in mind that BoV becomes more efficient as you level, as each expenditure of Turn Undead counts as an additional one per every 3 levels beyond the 7th for the purpose of imbuing effects.
Not that this addresses BoV's issues, but I've also found that it makes sense to allow the Paladin to channel Scouring Light through his weapon:
Either version of Scouring Light may be channeled through a weapon or munition held by the Paladin as a Swift Action. A creature successfully struck by a weapon channeling Scouring Light suffers its effects as above, with the burst version of this ability centred on that creature. Hitting a creature in this way completely discharges Scouring Light, thus its effects do not apply to any further attacks made, unless reapplied as another Swift Action.Last edited by Surrealistik; 2010-06-18 at 06:44 PM.
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2010-06-18, 06:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 3rd Tier Paladin (PEACH)
Do you have to hit with the weapon or is it both the weapon's attack and the touch attack? Or is the weapon's attack now a touch attack?
I've mostly just been channeling it through my eyes. Though I haven't told my DM or any of the players this. They'd kill me.
And the blade of virtue ability isn't bad. It's just not good when I can't hit the enemy on anything less than a 17.Last edited by Mystic Muse; 2010-06-18 at 06:54 PM.
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2010-06-18, 06:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 3rd Tier Paladin (PEACH)
You have to strike with the weapon which is a normal attack roll, but that said, there is a definite synergy between this and Smite Evil. Mind you this is only if you choose to channel Scouring Light's effect into your weapon (this isn't necessary).
Also, what kind of opponents have you been fighting that you need to roll so high to hit? O_oLast edited by Surrealistik; 2010-06-18 at 07:02 PM.
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2010-06-18, 07:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 3rd Tier Paladin (PEACH)
Yes. Yes there is. Especially at 14th level.
Also, what kind of opponents have you been fighting that you need to roll so high to hit? O_oLast edited by Mystic Muse; 2010-06-18 at 07:14 PM.
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2010-06-18, 07:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 3rd Tier Paladin (PEACH)
Hey, do you mind if I steal the /Encounter thing for my own version of the Paladin? I think this is an awesome idea. I'm not a fan of the double smite damage to Undead, but then again, I'm all for the Undead having equal alignment rights.
I was going through each ability point-by-point, but I have to say that I just love this class, but I think it's Tier 2, not Tier 3. Especially since this class is now extremely useful in solo games and can buff allies without even thinking about it.I return!
Currently working on my own game heavily influenced by D&D 3.5 and PF. All of it is OGL material. The finished version will be released on PDF at some point.
Looking for people to add random fluff to my setting. PM me if you are interested.
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2010-06-18, 07:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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2010-06-19, 01:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 3rd Tier Paladin (PEACH)
If you look at it, it was a lot of immunities, can take damage for allies and can also absorb attacks that cause negative conditions and then be immune to the condition. Plus it can spread good will for all (allies anyway) with the aura effects.
Any party will want one and enough spread across the front lines of an army means that evil doesn't stand a chance.
I'm just saying that I do think its powerful. On the Tier thread it gives the Tier three examples as "Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Crusader, Bard, Swordsage, Binder (without access to the summon monster vestige), Wildshape Varient Ranger, Duskblade, Factotum, Warblade, Psionic Warrior." I think this outstrips most of them.
Tier 2 is: Sorcerer, Favored Soul, Psion, Binder (with access to online vestiges). This feels like the right sort of power level for this class. May just be me.I return!
Currently working on my own game heavily influenced by D&D 3.5 and PF. All of it is OGL material. The finished version will be released on PDF at some point.
Looking for people to add random fluff to my setting. PM me if you are interested.
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2010-06-19, 02:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 3rd Tier Paladin (PEACH)
I completely disagree that it is T2; high T3 maybe, but certainly not the former. For one, it clearly is not capable of breaking games (that's a requirement for being T2). Second while impressive defensively (that being its specialization), its offensive prowess is much more limited and situational, and it is generally an inflexible class. Compare and contrast this to the likes of the Beguiler or Dread Necromancer. That any party would want one is a good thing, not necessarily indicative of brokenness.
Also, feel free to adopt the /Encounter mechanic.
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2010-06-19, 02:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 3rd Tier Paladin (PEACH)
I return!
Currently working on my own game heavily influenced by D&D 3.5 and PF. All of it is OGL material. The finished version will be released on PDF at some point.
Looking for people to add random fluff to my setting. PM me if you are interested.
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2010-06-19, 04:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 3rd Tier Paladin (PEACH)
So while this thread is active again, I'd like to take the opportunity to mention some stuff.
The auras all seem to have potency based on charisma as well as size based on charisma. I really think these abilities would sit a lot better with me if the aura size was simply based on class level. Like 5' per 2 class levels. Comparison: level 20 Paladin with 30 charisma under current system has a 55' aura. Level 20 paladin under level-only system has 100' aura. Scale down to 1/4th paladin level and you have 50' aura (if you really think 100' is too much). As you see, it's not a question of Charisma on both fronts being overpowered. Indeed, my fear is that games at a lower level of optimization or games with very low starting stats get much less out of the class.
Consider changing out some of the resurrection stuff with Revivy (Spell Compendium -- true resurrection on target who died within 1 round, target revived but stable at -1 hp). Perhaps with a change to "must have died within 1 round per paladin level."
Alternatively, you could simply add the relevant costly material components to the resurrection uses of lay on hands (25k in diamonds for true res, for instance).
Finally, I see a lot of free action stuff (Providence, the ally buff use of Aegis, probably some more) that could be made Immediate Actions. Did you play with that idea and find it too limiting to the Paladin? It seems like it'd make a more interesting dynamic than burning through everything he can do until he's out of daily juice.
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As opposed to the Haitian in Heroes, this is a character with a whole bag of tricks to bring to the table and choose the tool for the task to shut down his opponents. I must say, if this could be portrayed well in fiction, it'd be most BA.Last edited by Pechvarry; 2010-06-19 at 04:39 PM.
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2010-06-19, 11:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 3rd Tier Paladin (PEACH)
Well, keep in mind the cost of using true ressurection. 800 points worth of lay on hands. With just the base amount of turn undead bonuses at 20th level, and assuming you have a Charisma of 26 you only have 1920 healing points by expending all your turn undead attempts, and this is in addition to your normal amount of lay on hands healing. That means you can use it twice a day at most, and then you only have two turn undead attempts left. (if my math is correct. I'm tired so it may be wrong) granted, There are ways to get extra turn undead attempts but due to the amount of other class features fueled by them, you aren't going to be spending all your turn undead attempts on Lay on hands.
The only reason I have so many on my current character is because if I focused on dealing damage with my Paladin (Again) my group would hate me.Last edited by Mystic Muse; 2010-06-19 at 11:39 PM.
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2010-06-21, 05:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 3rd Tier Paladin (PEACH)
Well, keep in mind the cost of using true ressurection. 800 points worth of lay on hands. With just the base amount of turn undead bonuses at 20th level, and assuming you have a Charisma of 26 you only have 1920 healing points by expending all your turn undead attempts, and this is in addition to your normal amount of lay on hands healing. That means you can use it twice a day at most, and then you only have two turn undead attempts left. (if my math is correct. I'm tired so it may be wrong) granted, There are ways to get extra turn undead attempts but due to the amount of other class features fueled by them, you aren't going to be spending all your turn undead attempts on Lay on hands.
Overall, this seems like a nice class, but I'm no expert on balance - it seems to me you'd want to run it by a ToB expert on a power comparison with the Crusader, the class to which it's probably the most similar.