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2017-03-14, 09:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Retiering the Classes: Bard, Factotum, Jester, and Savant
Also, c'mon. Glibness is a spell whose value ranges from "useful" to "overpowering" based on how the GM runs social stuff, but it's not going to make-or-break the Bard. I mean, hell, you've got Charm Monster and Lesser Geas at the same spell level; you got Suggestion one spell level earlier (and one level earlier via your music, potentially), and Dominate Person one level later. Not to mention a high Charisma, Diplomacy, and all the synergies. You've got lots of options for social command-and-control-- and even that is just one trick in your bag.
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2017-03-14, 09:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Retiering the Classes: Bard, Factotum, Jester, and Savant
Well right, but eggy wants to bypass all the saving throws and able to be compared to level appropriate challenges by making the bluff skill work like Dominate Monster No Save when you cast Glibness so that he can bypass the fact that all those about or less level appropriate spells are limited by targets and saves and usage limits and effects and immunities that negate or prevent them.
Last edited by Beheld; 2017-03-14 at 09:18 AM.
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2017-03-14, 10:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Retiering the Classes: Bard, Factotum, Jester, and Savant
Diplomancy is much stronger ... but doesn't really work in combat (expect for something like Half-Elves) ... and doesn't work on PCs. Glibness is very nice and helpful in that it allows to pretty much ignore that +30 penalty that applies due to the two major sources of making bluffing harder to pull off (the bluff being somewhat too unbelievable ... and someone being at significant risk for believing that bluff when it might be a lie ... being summed up to a hard to deal with +30 modifier to the opposing sense motion check), so using it for that might in fact have been the intented use for Glibness. Bluffing most certainly is pretty strong (and the wording of "indicates that the target reacts as you wish, at least for a short time (usually 1 round or less) or believes something that you want it to believe" makes it even stronger), but the effect of bluff isn't permanent because what a creature believes might change at any time once it has a reason to sufficiently question that believe. To be fair, the use of bluff that's been suggested by eggy might actually work against mentaly slow creatures that don't think too deep about something and might also be helpful in "confusing" more intelligent and/or challenging foes long enough to hinder their actions or make them stop combat for long enough to use Diplomancy against them ... excellent bluffs have always been pretty effective, after all, especially when it comes to buying time.
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2017-03-14, 12:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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2017-03-14, 12:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Retiering the Classes: Bard, Factotum, Jester, and Savant
Most people see a half orc and and think barbarian warrior. Me on the other hand? I think secondary trap handler and magic item tester. Also I'm not allowed to trick the next level one wizard into starting a fist fight with a house cat no matter how annoying he is.
Yes I know it's sarcasm. It's a joke. Pale green is for snarking
Thread wins: 2
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2017-03-14, 01:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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2017-03-14, 02:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Retiering the Classes: Bard, Factotum, and Jester
It struck me as a somewhat ambiguous position, as it tends to be when you have a class right on the line, along with a probably. If you're that adamant on it, I should probably stick that down as a vote. This argument is probably pretty pointless if we all more or less agree. Maybe we should just start looking at the jester or something.
Like I said, that's because I didn't think anyone was seriously going to contend that a level 1 Wizard is a really a level 4 character because Silent Image + Sleep + Alarm is what a level 4 character does.
I mean, if you are so committed I can do analysis of literally all the SRD CR 3-5 monsters and see how that goes.
Being pretty generous, I have Centuar, Large and Huge Animate Object, Ankeg, Juvenile Arrowhawk, Giant Eagle/Owl, Gargoyle, all 10 mephits, all 8 vermin, Ogre, all 3 Oozes, Pegasus, 3 Skeletons and 3 Zombies (as far as computing these, I usually just assign the ones that show up on d20 monster filter, since there are theoretically nearly as many of these as everything else combined, but people aren't going to use them to the exclusion) Ravid, and Spider Eater. Altogether, 39 of 153, or about 25%. Contributing equivalent to a 4th level character is 25% of 75% of encounters and (basically 100%) of 25% encounters, comes out to contributing at your level 43% of the time. That's not level appropriate, that's more than 50% of the time you aren't level appropriate. (This is, as I feel obligated to mention since you keep refusing to believe me when I say it, spellcasting alone.)
Under the metric of "at least 8 rounds of combat a day" and the Bard being able to cast Glitterdust in only one of those 8 rounds, it follows that in 7 of the rounds he is using First level spells. (Hence why I assume such a character, Bard casting only, would use Silent Image a great deal, since that would allow him to stretch his 3 first level spells across 6 combat rounds in the three encounters he has each day without glitterdust.)
Remember when I said "not level appropriate" that doesn't mean literally useless, it just means that you aren't level appropriate, and aren't contributing your fair share to encounters when you are using first level spells as your only input to an EL 4 encounter. Like, 25% of encounters contributing at level and 75% not at level contribution.
Like I have said, bard casting. Not Bard.
Those are both absolutely bat**** crazy interpretations that no one would ever make if they weren't committed to trying to weasel bluff into the most powerful thing in the universe. You are only advocating them because you want to defend bluff as actually crazy good, and you are willing to stab sense to death in a dark alley to do it.
1) If you claiming to be king without evidence is new evidence, then him saying you aren't is also new evidence. If you have to present evidence for your claims, then you are up **** creak without a paddle, because the Bard never has evidence for any of his claims ever.
2) You can say "that information is false for whatever reason" and every time, the king can respond with "except it's true for whatever reason" and you are still trapped in the same inescapable loop of never being able to meaningfully convince someone for more than one round when they are in the presence of new information.
1) I literally can't tell the difference between what you are saying here, and someone complaining that it's unfair that the enemy Wizard had cast Detect Scrying and responded to their Scry spell. You are mad that people respond to the abilities that exist in their world by protecting themselves against them?
2) No you can't, because literally by their nature, the veracity of the deaf guy is beyond question, and any attempt to doubt him is too incredible to consider, that's the point of procedures.
3) Please stop talking about the spell level. Glibness is an ability you get at 7th level. If it was a 4th level spell it would be an ability you get at 11th level. I mean, you might as well be talking about how Dispel Magic is way too good as a First level spell. Spell level only meaningfully effects Globe of Invulnerability and saving throw, so aside from being negated by Globe of Invulnerability placed in the right locations, it's spell level is meaningless in evaluating it's power, the relevant consideration is what level you get the spell. If you got the spell at level 11, that would be as singularly impressive as most of the other bard spells, instead of approximately nearly as good as what level appropriate casters are getting (but way fewer times per day).
"I'm not sure why my boss would expect me to follow proper procedures." Yeah, that might be your problem.
But really, if your argument is "my credibility is never affected by the fact that I've been wrong 100 times in a row" then sure, Bluff is godmode, but since in fact, credibility is affected by constantly being wrong, papering over your failed lies with more lies is a non-effective strategy. Whether this is evaluated as a single mega lie or a series of minor lies to cover for each previous lie being figured out as false, either of those things scales into "too incredible to consider."
Except that the encounters do in fact scale with potency. First level Barbarians don't lose AB or damage as you level, they just face enemies with more HP and AC. It's the same thing. As evidenced by the 25% contribution rate of Bard with 3 spells and 3 spells known going into 3 encounters.
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2017-03-14, 11:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Retiering the Classes: Bard, Factotum, Jester, and Savant
Actually more like I put you on ignore a long time ago and thus only go through the mental effort to engage you in any way when you become a main contributer to conversation in threads I'm actually interested in. If we have the same vote anyway it's pointless and a waste of my valuable time.
Most people see a half orc and and think barbarian warrior. Me on the other hand? I think secondary trap handler and magic item tester. Also I'm not allowed to trick the next level one wizard into starting a fist fight with a house cat no matter how annoying he is.
Yes I know it's sarcasm. It's a joke. Pale green is for snarking
Thread wins: 2
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2017-03-15, 02:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Retiering the Classes: Bard, Factotum, Jester, and Savant
Fine, I vote Bard is Tier 4 and Rogue is Tier 3, now you can follow through on the challenge you yourself made about me being "objectively wrong" that has nothing to do with Bards or Rogues but that you are running away from because you realized you couldn't follow through on your own challenge.
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2017-03-15, 02:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Retiering the Classes: Bard, Factotum, Jester, and Savant
Most people see a half orc and and think barbarian warrior. Me on the other hand? I think secondary trap handler and magic item tester. Also I'm not allowed to trick the next level one wizard into starting a fist fight with a house cat no matter how annoying he is.
Yes I know it's sarcasm. It's a joke. Pale green is for snarking
Thread wins: 2
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2017-03-15, 02:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Retiering the Classes: Bard, Factotum, Jester, and Savant
Honestly not sure whether to count weird spite votes. I'ma stick them in the sheet for now, particularly cause they don't make much of a difference to the result, but if our goal here is accurate tiering, and it is, then votes designed as a weird challenge to other users seem counterproductive. Like, do you actually think these things are the case, that bard is tier four and that rogue is tier three? I'd have to assume not, which means it was a vote explicitly in bad faith. So, don't be surprised if I ditch both votes (though I suppose I'd get rid of the votes entirely for the moment rather than switch the bard to its original tier three vote).
Edit: Yeah, decided to delete them, basically immediately. I can't in good conscience endorse this kinda weird, "Vote with an explicit non-tiering motive," thing. The actual numbers we have, not just the resulting tier, are important to me. It's not right to poison that with spite.Last edited by eggynack; 2017-03-15 at 02:28 AM.
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2017-03-15, 05:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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2017-03-15, 06:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Retiering the Classes: Bard, Factotum, Jester, and Savant
Actually I've already achieved my objective, because it's rare in internet debate to actually change the mind of someone blatantly opposed to you. Funny thing about that is that it wasn't the objective. The objective was to get you to throw away the last of your credibility on a shortsighted spite play just like I thought you would. Now they aren't even paying attention to your votes, and while I gave you the conversational rope to metaphorically hang yourself, I certainly never once suggested I'd alter my vote to something I didn't believe just to spite someone. So go on, think that you won. Your opinion was never even on the list of priorities.
Most people see a half orc and and think barbarian warrior. Me on the other hand? I think secondary trap handler and magic item tester. Also I'm not allowed to trick the next level one wizard into starting a fist fight with a house cat no matter how annoying he is.
Yes I know it's sarcasm. It's a joke. Pale green is for snarking
Thread wins: 2
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2017-03-15, 06:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Retiering the Classes: Bard, Factotum, Jester, and Savant
Last edited by Beheld; 2017-03-15 at 06:12 AM.
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2017-03-15, 06:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Retiering the Classes: Bard, Factotum, Jester, and Savant
Nah. I would've been prepared to. It's not hard to do. The only stipulations were no minion-mancy and no feats. Minionmancy is less than half the scary broken spells that exist at any given level. It's only bad faith if under no scenario are you prepared to follow through.
Most people see a half orc and and think barbarian warrior. Me on the other hand? I think secondary trap handler and magic item tester. Also I'm not allowed to trick the next level one wizard into starting a fist fight with a house cat no matter how annoying he is.
Yes I know it's sarcasm. It's a joke. Pale green is for snarking
Thread wins: 2
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2017-03-15, 06:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Retiering the Classes: Bard, Factotum, Jester, and Savant
I wouldn't necessarily rule anything out. If Beheld makes some votes that seem to be made in good faith, those'll get counted unless things change pretty radically. This particular case was a bridge too far regarding this vote pair, because we can look upon the votes and say that they don't even accurately reflect the opinions of the user making them, but I'd assume that most votes Beheld would make wouldn't be in the context of a weird spite conflict, y'know? I can't disregard people's votes just cause I might disagree with them. At that point, I might as well be setting myself up as this weird arbiter of whether someone is credible as a voter, ultimately allowing my bias to hurt how closely we're modelling the thread to the opinions of the forum. Wouldn't be any better than Jormengand was when they effectively banned me and maybe also banned Beheld (they indicated that they did, but responded to him later, so I dunno) from the thread, which was a big reason I started this one, because the personal opinions of a user shouldn't be a weird voting gate. Big reason I didn't count this one was because there's essentially an explicit claim that the vote is going against Beheld's actual opinions.
I mean, I would assume your bard 4 rogue 3 vote was meant to be counted. Such is the nature of votes. You definitely made that vote, at the very least. Maybe you didn't intend to make the tier three bard vote. I took it as implied, because I tend to, as a general rule, take absolute statements of a tiering as a vote. I think that's how people intend them, and I like to count things that are intended as votes. If ya want me to add back in the bard for tier three vote, I very likely would. Not cause it matches up with my opinion, but because it seems to match up to your opinion. I ended up not including the three as opposed to the switching to the old vote option primarily out of respect for your seeming desire to at least not vote the bard tier four. Not gonna force folks to contribute, y'know?
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2017-03-15, 06:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Retiering the Classes: Bard, Factotum, Jester, and Savant
Scenario A: You present challenge. It is accepted. Monsters are presented. You back out because you know you can't do it, but make up some dumb lie about how now that the person who said in his first post that the Bard is probably Tier 3 is Tier 3, the challenge designed to prove your claim about Wizards is no longer relevant because you personally don't like the poster in question.
Scenario B: You present challenge. It is accepted. Monsters are presented. All 5 monsters are mindless zombies. You say "Silent Image x5" and win the challenge.
Your actions in Scenario A are not in good faith just because Scenario B could have existed but didn't.
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2017-03-15, 06:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2011
Re: Retiering the Classes: Bard, Factotum, Jester, and Savant
That's an interesting moral stance. I think you'll find the common parlance on such is that the faith of an offer or action is based entirely on preparedness to perform, as opposed to expectation. Car dealerships generally expect you to try to haggle the price of your purchase. That doesn't mean they aren't prepared to honor any deal they give you. This is why claims of bad faith are hard. It's a VERY specific accusation. I thought, correctly, that you were the type of person who'd cut off his metaphorical nose to spite his face. Banking entirely on that and having no list of safe encounter lines of spells would've been bad faith. I didn't do that though.
Most people see a half orc and and think barbarian warrior. Me on the other hand? I think secondary trap handler and magic item tester. Also I'm not allowed to trick the next level one wizard into starting a fist fight with a house cat no matter how annoying he is.
Yes I know it's sarcasm. It's a joke. Pale green is for snarking
Thread wins: 2
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2017-03-15, 06:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Retiering the Classes: Bard, Factotum, Jester, and Savant
Funny thing, I still count Beheld as more credible than you.
I would further move that "spite" votes ought to be counted. After all, if someone's making an argument just to spite a particular position, doesn't that make the position valid? There's obviously some sort of dispute, which is the whole point of the voting. Ryu, who's idea of a "normal" game state has been shown to be woefully abnormal, has just openly admitted attempting to manipulate another poster specifically to get the judge to disqualify their position, which is the actual spite here. Does that not make it obvious this position is significant and ought be counted? If Beheld had presented it independently it would have been, but disqualifying the vote just because ryu kicked up a fuss is rather poor on multiple levels.
Or is any dissent now invalid as long as ryu surrounds it with his own garbage? Because that's gonna require throwing out a lot of votes.Fizban's Tweaks and Brew: Google Drive (PDF), Thread
A collection of over 200 pages of individually small bans, tweaks, brews, and rule changes, usable piecemeal or nearly altogether, and even some convenient lists. Everything I've done that I'd call done enough to use in one place (plus a number of things I'm working on that aren't quite done, of course).
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2017-03-15, 06:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Retiering the Classes: Bard, Factotum, Jester, and Savant
Most people see a half orc and and think barbarian warrior. Me on the other hand? I think secondary trap handler and magic item tester. Also I'm not allowed to trick the next level one wizard into starting a fist fight with a house cat no matter how annoying he is.
Yes I know it's sarcasm. It's a joke. Pale green is for snarking
Thread wins: 2
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2017-03-15, 07:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Retiering the Classes: Bard, Factotum, Jester, and Savant
This tiering system does not have the goal of fulfilling any arbitrary goal a person has. In the arguments, you can have whatever wacky spite goals you want, I guess, but the vote is meant to be a representation of what tier you think the class should have. Nothing more, nothing less. If your justification for a vote is something like, "I think this class is tier one, but all the people saying it's tier one are jerks, so I'm gonna vote tier three to screw with them," that person is not voting in accordance with the core goal of this thread. They're voting in accordance with some weird other goal, explicitly acting in contravention of this thread's intent to measure how forumites feel about the class. I don't give a crap about how forumites feel about each other. Why would I? So I can say afterwards, "Yeah, we were trying to get an accurate reflection of, first, how playgrounders think classes should be tiered, and, second, what random issues they had with each other at that moment in time,"? No, cause that's ridiculous.
This vote is not being discounted because of anything Ryu said. It's being discounted exactly because of what Beheld said. If he instead had posted something like, "Y'know, I was pretty convinced of tier three, but all of these arguments in favor of tier three have really shown me the flaws in that position, so I'm changing my vote to four," I would have counted that in a heartbeat. You can argue that Beheld's intention could have been the same behind each post, but I'm inevitably limited to the information before me. And, while you might not agree with Ryu or how he tiers, I don't think there's any doubt that his votes thus far have been completely consistent with how he views the game, and premised entirely on his feelings about the tiers rather than on some wacky feud.
And, again, I'm not disqualifying Beheld. I'm pretty unlikely to count any bard for tier four argument from him at this point, but if he wants to toss out anything else outside the norm, and justify that with his personal opinions on the game, then that'll be counted whether or not I consider those opinions particularly valid. I'm not even really disqualifying Beheld's position on bards. To all appearances, he put forth this bard vote specifically and only because he wanted Ryu to continue with this weird off-topic wizard thing, so while I am absolutely disqualifying that position, his actual apparent opinion, that bards are tier three (stated a couple of times in this thread), would be respected if he wants it to be. Only reason I wouldn't respect a future Beheld post giving a real justification for bards in tier four is because I think that that particular well is poisoned.Last edited by eggynack; 2017-03-15 at 07:08 AM.
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2017-03-15, 07:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Retiering the Classes: Bard, Factotum, Jester, and Savant
And yet, when I openly admitted I was downshifting from my normal position in voting wizard at tier 2, it was counted. See what we have here is me voting based on a lower op than I would actually desire to play, (Ryu) voting based on a higher op that nobody actually thinks is normal, and Beheld casting a vote which is. . . ? There is no defined game state for these tiers, and a game state can be set in which bard is tier 4 and rogue is tier 3. Is it a "normal" game? Because your game state isn't normal, my game state isn't even normal by my own standards, why should Beheld be penalized for casting a vote that doesn't match his own views?
Because (Ryu) and eggy argued with him a bunch and his first official voting interaction was in that context.
Which is why I say to eggy, that labeling these as spite votes and then deliberately discarding them is bs. The moment you consider them potential votes you give up the authority to ignore them, period. If you wanted to ignore Beheld for not being a regular voter or casting a vote out of context, you shouldn't have considered it in the first place. Allowing some posters to push agendas that clearly don't match your own and then refusing another just because they didn't submit it properly is bogus. Because make no mistake, there are plenty of votes being cast in these threads that ignore the principles in the mission statement.
Edit: so the only qualification for voting is "convince eggy you're voting for what you believe in." Because to be clear on that last claim, we have people voting in all sorts of ways based on ACFs and dips and wildly divergent op levels and level ranges that I don't think can really be called moderate. That's been obvious from the get go, and they've all been counted, and it's been fairly obvious that's your metric even though it wasn't quite outright stated, but "vote for what you believe in" does not move towards the goal of accurate tiers. It moves towards the popularity contest where a bunch of inaccurate but popular claims are still accepted.Last edited by Fizban; 2017-03-15 at 07:15 AM.
Fizban's Tweaks and Brew: Google Drive (PDF), Thread
A collection of over 200 pages of individually small bans, tweaks, brews, and rule changes, usable piecemeal or nearly altogether, and even some convenient lists. Everything I've done that I'd call done enough to use in one place (plus a number of things I'm working on that aren't quite done, of course).
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2017-03-15, 07:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Retiering the Classes: Bard, Factotum, Jester, and Savant
A brief statement on not voting in tier threads: I am sure this is the reason I don't vote, and I suspect it is the reason Cosi I doesn't vote. Voting in tier threads is meaningless. In a Jaronk or jormuneg (phone can't go find spelling) thread the entire definition of the tiers is meaningless gobblygook designed to prevent real analysis. In eggy's tier definitions tiers are rated based on "situations" that someone can handle. I think those situations are better called encounters, and that further, we should acknowledge that contributing to nonlevelappropriate encounters above the rate of a character of that level is worth approximately nothing. Presumably failing against lower level challenges is bad.
So from that, it follows that what we are really measuring is contribution to level appropriate encounters. Now what people vote based on their own ignorance without having a method of testing their assumptions is then merely an incorrect estimate. Better then to present an actual argument about level appropriate results based on actual effects than to just have another evidenceless assertion based on the fact that they heard it once, like ryu's complete inability to back up his claim and challenge.
The new consensus is just going to be a new thing people believe without evidence because they heard it once, but be unable to back up when it comes down to it.
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2017-03-15, 07:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Retiering the Classes: Bard, Factotum, Jester, and Savant
It doesn't matter what's viewed as normal. Only, and I do mean ONLY, that your opinion actually matches your vote that matters. Well... at least not explicitly contradicting each other. Further, no, the entirety of my votes, including tier 3 across the board for everything in this thread's roster except for savant which I've never seen used, are based entirely on how the game is actually played at my table with the given limitations against multiclassing and PRCs eggy has adopted. I'm willing to use the age old debate tactic of getting the person on the other side to say something untenable to lower their aggregate credibility. I'm not willing to flout the rules of the actual thread.
Most people see a half orc and and think barbarian warrior. Me on the other hand? I think secondary trap handler and magic item tester. Also I'm not allowed to trick the next level one wizard into starting a fist fight with a house cat no matter how annoying he is.
Yes I know it's sarcasm. It's a joke. Pale green is for snarking
Thread wins: 2
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2017-03-15, 07:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Retiering the Classes: Bard, Factotum, Jester, and Savant
"Something untenable" here being attempting to get you to back up your own claim.
I agree you have definitely demonstrated that you backing up your claim is untenable.
I question however if outside your own head that when you presented a challenge and I followed through, and then you backed out after you looked at the monsters and couldn't come up with spells that met your criteria, that perhaps that might have effected your credibility.
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2017-03-15, 07:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Retiering the Classes: Bard, Factotum, Jester, and Savant
Well, yeah. Because I thought that was an accurate representation of what you thought the wizard's tier should be. This still reflects your views on the wizard given what you perceived as the premises of this thread. I thought, anyway.
There is no defined game state for these tiers, and a game state can be set in which bard is tier 4 and rogue is tier 3. Is it a "normal" game? Because your game state isn't normal, my game state isn't even normal by my own standards, why should Beheld be penalized for casting a vote that doesn't match his own views?
Which is why I say to eggy, that labeling these as spite votes and then deliberately discarding them is bs. The moment you consider them potential votes you give up the authority to ignore them, period.
If you wanted to ignore Beheld for not being a regular voter or casting a vote out of context, you shouldn't have considered it in the first place.
Allowing some posters to push agendas that clearly don't match your own and then refusing another just because they didn't submit it properly is bogus.
Because make no mistake, there are plenty of votes being cast in these threads that ignore the principles in the mission statement.
Edit: so the only qualification for voting is "convince eggy you're voting for what you believe in." Because to be clear on that last claim, we have people voting in all sorts of ways based on ACFs and dips and wildly divergent op levels and level ranges that I don't think can really be called moderate. That's been obvious from the get go, and they've all been counted, and it's been fairly obvious that's your metric even though it wasn't quite outright stated, but "vote for what you believe in" does not move towards the goal of accurate tiers. It moves towards the popularity contest where a bunch of inaccurate but popular claims are still accepted.
However, weird optimization levels or ACF use are unlikely to be the premise for that removal, so appealing a vote like that would be kinda pointless. Dips are currently not allowed, so I'm at least likely to remove those votes going forward if a particular case is brought to my attention and not sufficiently refuted by the voter. I'm wary of removing votes on that basis retroactively though, so bringing up votes from before pretty late in the fighter thread aren't that likely to get me to wipe the vote. In those cases, you might do better bringing the issue up to the voter in question, get them to make a vote more aligned with what they think in this new context.
I don't think we're necessarily going to get perfectly accurate here, in any case. Voting has flaws. I think we're reasonably close to it though. We've had a ton of detailed discussion. A system where I discount votes that lack "proper" justification sounds good in theory, but that's a surefire path to just turning my personal tier views into a new tier system by discounting anyone that disagrees with me as not really being based on the nature of the system, because if it were based on the nature of the system then they'd agree with my clearly superior opinion. Really not what I'm interested in here. I like that I have your votes included, even the ones I disagree with. It's valuable to me. A system where I turn aside anything I consider wildly divergent might well not include that data.
Edit: Attempting to get him to back up his claim is theoretically fine, though it might make more sense in the wizard thread. Trying to get him to back up his claim by using my voting data as a weapon is not fine. I value that data. You were very much willing to hurt something I value in pursuit of your goals.Last edited by eggynack; 2017-03-15 at 07:40 AM.
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2017-03-15, 07:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2011
Re: Retiering the Classes: Bard, Factotum, Jester, and Savant
Interesting hypothetical. Guess we'll never know what would've happened in that situation because you didn't follow through, and with access to WBL, ACFs, race choices, and literally any spells available at the level natively that don't summon or create minions the challenge is easy.
Most people see a half orc and and think barbarian warrior. Me on the other hand? I think secondary trap handler and magic item tester. Also I'm not allowed to trick the next level one wizard into starting a fist fight with a house cat no matter how annoying he is.
Yes I know it's sarcasm. It's a joke. Pale green is for snarking
Thread wins: 2
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2017-03-15, 07:46 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2009
- Gender
Re: Retiering the Classes: Bard, Factotum, Jester, and Savant
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2017-03-15, 07:46 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2010
Re: Retiering the Classes: Bard, Factotum, Jester, and Savant
Except that literally is the situation, because that is explicitly what happened in this thread. I get it, the challenge is so easy that you refuse to do it but it is just so easy. It would only take you 30 seconds, but you are willing to spend hours of your time refusing to do it. But its totally easy.
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2017-03-15, 07:55 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2011
Re: Retiering the Classes: Bard, Factotum, Jester, and Savant
Totally is. Technically three if you count classes separate. Mostly based on those three classes meeting the criteria of being pretty obvious better than rogue, but pretty well below sorcerer. It's a pretty simple system I use. For any given class not likely in tiers one or six just compare the class to be evaluated to the poster child of those tiers adjacent to the proposed possible vote. Keep doing that until you find a tier the class matches. Tiers one and six are even simpler because you've half the work. For those wondering the poster children are commoner without chicken superpowers, fighter, rogue, bard, sorcerer, and wizard. Why get specific with commoner? Because the build excluded is the only not tier 6 build by the methodology we're using, and it's an anomaly at tier 3.
Most people see a half orc and and think barbarian warrior. Me on the other hand? I think secondary trap handler and magic item tester. Also I'm not allowed to trick the next level one wizard into starting a fist fight with a house cat no matter how annoying he is.
Yes I know it's sarcasm. It's a joke. Pale green is for snarking
Thread wins: 2