Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXII: I C'Tan Has Cheese?

[One Step Two]

No such thing. Anyone who says otherwise needs to go back to 4th Ed. - not even 5th is how far behind they are! What actually matters is whether or not the unit works. If a unit does what you wanted it to do, then you paid the right amount of points.

I'd argue it's entirely dependant on how easily it can be countered or stopped from doing what you want it to. For me, back in 6th, my Jet Council was pretty strong, but due to the low number of attacks the warlocks had they were susceptible to being tarpitted.

Rune Priest; Mastery Lever 2, Runic Armour, Melta Bombs, Bike - 135 Points
Wolf Priest; Runic Armour, Melta Bombs, Bike - 155 Points
Iron Priest; x4 Cyberwolves, Thunderwolf Mount - 165 Points
Iron Priest; x4 Cyberwolves, Thunderwolf Mount - 165 Points
Iron Priest; x4 Cyberwolves, Thunderwolf Mount - 165 Points
Thunderwolf Cavalry (x6); x3 Storm Shields, x2 Power Fists, x4 Melta Bombs - 355 Points

Total: 1140 Points. All one unit. Except it's not even done. You need at least one more IC in the unit with T5 to prevent the unit from dropping to T4 because of the Cyberwolves.
Despite what it looks like on paper, the unit is actually 23 (24) models strong and huge.

This unit however, seems to be able to chew up anything that comes at it and spit it out.

[Requizen]

No such thing. Anyone who says otherwise needs to go back to 4th Ed. - not even 5th is how far behind they are! What actually matters is whether or not the unit works. If a unit does what you wanted it to do, then you paid the right amount of points.

Rune Priest; Mastery Lever 2, Runic Armour, Melta Bombs, Bike - 135 Points
Wolf Priest; Runic Armour, Melta Bombs, Bike - 155 Points
Iron Priest; x4 Cyberwolves, Thunderwolf Mount - 165 Points
Iron Priest; x4 Cyberwolves, Thunderwolf Mount - 165 Points
Iron Priest; x4 Cyberwolves, Thunderwolf Mount - 165 Points
Thunderwolf Cavalry (x6); x3 Storm Shields, x2 Power Fists, x4 Melta Bombs - 355 Points

Total: 1140 Points. All one unit. Except it's not even done. You need at least one more IC in the unit with T5 to prevent the unit from dropping to T4 because of the Cyberwolves.
Despite what it looks like on paper, the unit is actually 23 (24) models strong and huge.

Hm, makes sense. I'm just always wary of paying too much for something that may not even do anything.

Oh, and Cyberwolves just got FAQ'd to T5. Other interesting (but logical) FAQ? Immobilized vehicles can't jink. Which makes sense, but needed RAW for people to stop doing it.

[Cheesegear]

For me, back in 6th, my Jet Council was pretty strong, but due to the low number of attacks the warlocks had they were susceptible to being tarpitted.

You were running the Jet Council in 6th without Baron Sathonyx to give the unit Hit & Run for this exact reason? But that's why Eldar/Dark Eldar armies were so stupidly strong!

[One Step Two]

You were running the Jet Council in 6th without Baron Sathonyx to give the unit Hit & Run for this exact reason? But that's why Eldar/Dark Eldar armies were so stupidly strong!

Just using an example to illustrate my point.

Though, at the time when I was still playing I was helping run a gaming group for younger players. I tended to leave a few holes in my army strategy to see if they could pick up weaknesses, without out-right telling them hard counters. Gotta make those whippersnappers use their grey matter.

[Requizen]

I have a couple iterations of the Orikanstar, I'd really love some feedback on them so I can try one of em out at my next game night!

Spoiler: Iteration 1 - Royal Court

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Royal Court
Overlord w/ Warscythe
Orikan
Obyron

CAD
5x Lychguard with Shields

490 Baseline, then requires 1 HQ and 2 Troops for the CAD.

Idea is simple - Deep Strike across the board turn 1, positioning the Lychguard to tank the wounds on 3++ rerolling 1s, 4+++ RP. Royal Court grants Move Through Cover, so you only have to worry about Mishaps on models, impassable, or table edge. Run the turn you Deep Strike, then hopefully get a charge turn 2. If not, 3.

Spoiler: Iteration 2 - Destroyer Lord

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CAD
Orikan
Obyron

5x Lychguard with Shields

Destroyer Cult
Destroyer Lord w/ Warscythe

520 baseline, then requires 2 Troops and filling out Destroyer Cult.

Same as above, but a slightly different baseline. Destroyer Cult DLord replacing the Overlord lets you fit Orikan and Obyron into the CAD, so you won't have to buy an "extra" Overlord/Character. Same tactic - Ghostwalk Mantle turn 1, Destroyer Lord has MTC from Cult. He's a bit tougher, but has a lower WS than the Overlord. But, he brings Preferred Enemy for everyone in the squad, which boosts their damage output a bit.

Spoiler: Iteration 3 - Crypteks and Warscythes

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CAD
Orikan
Cryptek w/ Solar Staff, Chronometron

5-10x Lychguard with Warscythes in a Night Scythe

480 - 605 points baseline depending on number of Lychguard, then needs 2 Troops.

Higher price point, but hey you get a flyer with it. Unlike the last two, this one is more using the Characters to support the Lychguard than vice versa. Unlike the other two, it doesn't come in turn 1, but will have a more secure landing, and can semi-Invis upon landing for a relatively safe pre-Charge turn. 3+/5++ rerolling 1s makes them sorta Terminators, except kinda better, since they have T5 and 4+ RP. Except the 5++ is only against shooting and the RP doesn't work against Knights. They also can't charge until Turn 3 at the earliest, assuming they come in turn 2.

Spoiler: Iteration 4 - Expensive and BRAVE (read, probably suicidal)

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Royal Court
Orikan
Obyron
Overlord w/ Warscythe, Phase Shifter, Nightmare Shroud

CAD
Cryptek w/ Solar Staff, Chronometron

5-10x Lychguard with Warscythes

630-755 points baseline, then needs 2 Troops.

The most killy squad I could think of. 7-12 models with Warscythes, all with pretty good saves and majority T5. Of course, this is way less survivable than the first two - no 3++ rerollable. But, both Obyron and the Overlord have 2+ saves rerollable, so they can basically tank non AP2 guns forever. 5++ against shooting and Solar Staff means that they should survive the first round of teleport madness - provided they don't mishap.

Therein lies the rub. Even at the smallest, it's 1 model larger than the first two. And once you add more Lychguard (because come on, more Warscythes), that footprint gets bigger and bigger. Deep striking 14 models is significantly different than deep striking 8. But, exponentially more murderous and just as if not more survivable as long as the opponents aren't packing AP2/AP3 weaponry.

[LordDavenport]

Are jugger lords in your meta? That seems to be the main thing that might cause problems... if it brings enough spawn to tank wounds, the axe of blind fury kills multiple targets before you get a swing. More reasonably, thunder wolf seems like it would chew through this squad...

Though honestly, it does seem like they could go toe to toe with a knight... knowing that they are going to lose a chunk of the squad to the same initative swing.

[Requizen]

My meta is mostly shooty except for Nids. Tau, Eldar, Necrons, DEldar, and the occasional SM. There's one Wolves player who uses a TWC squad (I dunno how kitted out), but aside from Nid MCs and the occasional Wyches, there's not a lot of other Assault Deathstars. I was kind of it when I was running Daemon Princes and Seekerstar.

[Drasius]

Played a game against orks today after a lad (around mid 20's at least) came in and proudly declared he had 610 points of stuff and was unbeaten in his return to 40k so far.

All I had was the Thousand Sons in my paint case, so a few seconds later with a calculator (and the assurance he wasn't playing nothing but kans/dreads) provided the following;

Sorc, ML3, Terminator armour, Spell Familiar, Melta Bombs

9x Thousand Sons
7x Thousand Sons

608

vs

Big Mek w/Shock attack gun
Smasha Gun, extra crew and ammo runt
~12-15x Boys, Rokkit, Nob, Power Klaw, ammo runt
10x Boys, Rokkit, Nob, Power Klaw
~12 x Grots & runtherd
5x Nobs, 2x Power Klaw

610 apparently

Was Vanguard and Relic (it's always relic) and I lost for sides and let him go first. Rolled Terrify and Mental Fortitude Shriek for powers on the sorc, along with 1 each of tzeentch's trash powers. I got pinning for warlord which he proceeded to pass all 3 tests (!), he got re-roll 1 save per turn out of the ork book.

1 TSon dead from the SAG and that was about it. I terrified the crew off the smasha gun and shrieked half his closest boys squad away, then landed a Tzeentch's Firestorm on the same group. The other pair of firestorms didn't go off due to a glut of 1's and 2's on the manifest dice. My shooting failed big time, with all hits and not a single wound.

Rinse and repeat next turn except I peril 3 times, netting a 6 and 2x 5's. Only other noteworthies was 0/5 to wound any of the grots with breath of chaos and a Heroic Morale rally on a double 1 by a pair of ork boys who then killed a TSon in shooting.

Shriek eventually put 7 wounds on the big mek on T4, taking him out and then it was cleanup after my opponent failed a 6 inch charge through terrain with a 3. Tabled him at the bottom of turn 5 with my warlord dragging the relic around for a total loss of 8x TSons.

Tzeentch's work was done in multuple ways, as my opponent immediately began planning for the addition of a weirdboy post-game. To be fair though, I rolled brilliantly for all my psychic powers (I don't think I rolled less than a 12 for shriek in all 5 turns and Firestorm worked a treat) and my shooting only caused about 5 wounds all game, I couldn't wound anything. Such is the wont of the Changer of Ways.

Got another game lined up for tomorrow, 1500 of TSons and Tzeentch Daemons vs Black Templars. Not quite sure how I'm gonna deal with the Raiders he will undoubtedly have, but given the difference in experience and generalship, I suspect he'd beat me with anything he ran anyway. Will hopefully post up a bat rep tomorrow.

[Eldan]

Bell of Lost SOuls has more Harlequin info now. New Psychic Discipline for Harlequins only. And a force org chart that looks completely unique.

[Requizen]

Harlies look pretty interesting. I'm definitely going to have to get my Wraiths together - if for no other reason than to have some solid assault defense against the coming storm. Maybe Flayed Ones too....

I like how Necrons went from a book with a single workable assault unit (well, Scarabs worked sometimes too, I guess) to one where every Assault unit is pretty well priced and reliable for what it does. Baffling.

[Voidhawk]

Bell of Lost SOuls has more Harlequin info now. New Psychic Discipline for Harlequins only. And a force org chart that looks completely unique.

Exactly 3 Troops, 2 Fast Attack, 1 Heavy Support all mandatory. 0-7 Elites. No HQs at all. That's not just unique, it's downright insane!

Spoiler: 1850 Destroyers

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Destroyer Cult - 700pts
(W) Destroyer Lord; Phase Shifter, Warscythe, Nightmare Shroud - 190pts

Destroyers (x4); one Heavy - 170pts
Destroyers (x4); one Heavy - 170pts
Destroyers (x4); one Heavy - 170pts

Destroyer Cult - 665pts
Destroyer Lord; Phase Shifter, Warscythe, - 155pts

Destroyers (x4); one Heavy - 170pts
Destroyers (x4); one Heavy - 170pts
Destroyers (x4); one Heavy - 170pts

Deathbringer Flight - 480pts
Doom Scythe - 160pts
Doom Scythe - 160pts
Doom Scythe - 160pts

TOTAL: 1845pts

Anyone have any feedback on this Destroyer list I posted earlier?

[Requizen]

Anyone have any feedback on this Destroyer list I posted earlier?

Seems a little small. 4 man Destroyer squads (especially when you tack on a DLord) are pretty tough to chew through, but until the flyers come in you only have 6 units on the table. Losing one to focused fire/bad rolling is going to screw things over something big.

Otherwise, it seems workable. Destroyers/Heavies are good against pretty much anything on the ground, while the Scythes bring AA and some extra anti-tank. The list suffers heavily against blob armies, and mid-board assault armies (thinking some Nid lists, Knights, TWC) will really wrest board control from you. But, that's the downside of being a one-note army. Fun thematically, though, I'm a huge fan of Destroyers too

[ZeltArruin]

Other interesting (but logical) FAQ? Immobilized vehicles can't jink. Which makes sense, but needed RAW for people to stop doing it.

Finally. Vehicle can't move at all, but can still take evasive actions somehow is finally gone.

[Yaktan]

The bit that effects me more is the change to independent characters and infiltrate. No longer can I ninja a squad across the board.

Though I think Shrike from the marines gets hit harder than Shadowsun, since he cannot infiltrate with any friends.

[Drasius]

Has anyone had any experience running the vengence weapons batteries with Icarus lascannons? I'd like some AA for some Iron Warrior CSM, but don't want to build & paint another heldrake and my HS slots are all full (2x Demolishers and a Defiler) and was thinking that it would also keep to theme since they're fortifications.

I was also considering allying in some Guard for a bassy and a 'Detta instead, but would prefer not to use up my Ally/formation slot as I was also thinking about running the Helbrute Dreadnought Mayhem pack later on.

[Turalisj]

So from the game on Sunday, the other player and I had a question. What happens when you hit a swarm or multiple units-on-base with an Instant-Death attack?

[LordDavenport]

Pretty sure they die... instantly. You can defiantly doubles out swarms.

[Ricky S]

Has anyone had any experience running the vengence weapons batteries with Icarus lascannons? I'd like some AA for some Iron Warrior CSM, but don't want to build & paint another heldrake and my HS slots are all full (2x Demolishers and a Defiler) and was thinking that it would also keep to theme since they're fortifications.

I was also considering allying in some Guard for a bassy and a 'Detta instead, but would prefer not to use up my Ally/formation slot as I was also thinking about running the Helbrute Dreadnought Mayhem pack later on.

Ive only run the batteries with battlecannons and they were quite effective, mind you I play predominately guard so I was just supporting my forces. Do the lascannons have to fire at the closest land target or do they have the skyfire rule? Because two with lascannons would be pretty good anti air.

[Drasius]

Ive only run the batteries with battlecannons and they were quite effective, mind you I play predominately guard so I was just supporting my forces. Do the lascannons have to fire at the closest land target or do they have the skyfire rule? Because two with lascannons would be pretty good anti air.

Skyfire & interceptor IIRC, so normally, yeah, fire at closest target, but on the turn something comes in, you can intercept, and it's likely to be planes, though they can also put deepstrikers and outflankers nearer to you to force you to shoot at those. But hopefully that just means they've clumped up as targets for my vindicators.

Got another game lined up for tomorrow, 1500 of TSons and Tzeentch Daemons vs Black Templars. Not quite sure how I'm gonna deal with the Raiders he will undoubtedly have, but given the difference in experience and generalship, I suspect he'd beat me with anything he ran anyway. Will hopefully post up a bat rep tomorrow.

The bit about pics didn't happen as I left my phone on the cradle charger and only realised once I got to the store 1/2 an hour later.

Still, it was a great game, and I shall attempt to recount it with as much accuracy as possible;

Spoiler: Forces of Tzeentch

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170 - Sorceror, ML3, Terminator armour, Spell familiar, MoT, VotLW

224 - 8x TSons, Melta Bombs - (Sorc goes here)
247 - 9x TSons, Melta Bombs

170 - Heldrake, Baleflamer

175 - Forgefiend, Hades

95 - Herald of Tzeentch, Disc, ML2

99 - 11x Horrors

69 - 3x Flamers

150 - 6x Screamers

100 - Burning Chariot

1499

Spoiler: Black Templars

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Captain, 2x Claws, Terminator armour
Chaplain, Terminator armour

12 (?) man crusader squad, Veteran Sarge, Heavy bolter and something else I think, probably melta or flamer.
16(?) man crusader squad, Veteran Sarge with thunder hammer, melta gun(s?), Land Raider Crusader w/ Multimelta
6 man Assault Terminators, Land Raider Crusader w/ Multimelta

Spoiler: mission, warlord and powers

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Relic (it's always relic, it's my curse) and Vanguard (also rapidly becomeing my curse), no night fighting.
He wins set-up, I win deployment and let him go first.

He gets something meh out of the C;SM book, I get -1 enemy reserves and re-roll into the same thing.

Sorc got boon (urgh), mental fortitude Shriek and Hallucinate
Aspiring Sorc #1 got doombolt (Yay!)
Aspiring Sorc #2 got Breath of Chaos (meh)

Herald got scriers gaze prescience and The torrent flamer power from Maelific
Horrors got Sacrifice.

He deploys the Raiders on the line either side of some LOS blocking terrain in his zone, relic is on the bottom floor of a ruin open to him and blocking LOS from my side. Tactical (?) unit in multi level ruins near his deployment edge.

I put the Forgefiend out of LOS of both Raiders behind a firestorm redoubt, the screamers on the line mostly out of LOS, the chariot out of range, TSons #1 and lord behind the roudoubt, the horrors in some forrest and the other TSons in the closest spot they'll fit on the right hand side of the board to try and draw off the crusaders in the crusader 'raider. Flamers and 'Drake into Reserve.

Spoiler: Turn 1

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Black Templars
He trundles forward and downs a single TSon from squad #1 who I couldn't quite hide with the terminator 'raider and 1 Horror with the crusader's crusader raider and doesn't achieve much else.

Tzeentch
My forgefiend pops out to target the AT 'Raider and the chariot rushes in to support or flame the contents if I can manage to bring down the 'raider with the forgefiend. Everything else moves up with the TSons #1 and lord staying out of LOS so they can't get charged.

Herald Perils himself getting prescience off on the FF and takes a wound, He denies doombolt on the raider and the horrors pop off sacrifice to generate a herald on a disc who knows ... Possession (!) That's going to be interesting next turn. Herald pops in out of LOS but on the other side of the wall from the relic.

FF daemonforges and gets 3 hull points from 7 hits on the AT 'Raider but can't get the last one with the 4 re-rolls. Chariot misses with his single lascannon shot and there goes any chance I had of stopping his rampage.

Spoiler: Turn 2

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Black Templars
'Raiders move up and disgorge their cargo. AT raider immobilises the FF with it's Multi Melta, Tactical squad pings a HP off the chariot.

Crusader squad charge the chariot, losing 1 in overwatch from the flamer but killing the Exalted flamer. Termies charge the FF, losing 1 in overwatch but wrecking it in exchange. First Blood to the BT's.

Tzeentch
Both the flamers and the 'Drake come on. Flamers thread the needle despite scattering 3" in the wrong direction. 'Drake sets up on the bunched up crusader squad. Screamers move up to try and charge the 'raider on 1 HP, TSons #1 move up to do the same. Horrors and TSons #2 continue to foot slog towards the relic. Summoned herald move closer to the relic but remains out of LOS.

Doombolt fails to go off, Torrent flamer from the herald gets denied, remaining 7 dice go into possession on the summoned herald and succeed. The newly promoted Lord of Change doesn't scatter and rolls sacrifice and scriers gaze prescience for his powers.

The 'Drake kills all bar 2 of the crusader lads and fails to wound the pair of termies that snuck under the template. Flamers pop 18 hits and 7 wounds on the termies who save all of them.

Screamers charge the 1 HP 'Raider but despite 3 hits, can't manage even a glance with their melta Jaws. TSons #1 and Sorc fail a 7" charge with a 6.

Spoiler: Turn 3

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Black Templars
'Raiders shuffle 6" back. 'Raider #2 pings a wound of the LoC, while #1 (The one originally holding the Termies) mow down 5 TSons from squad #1. Shooting takes a wound off the screamers and kills 1 flamer.

Crusaders charge the flamers, making all their overwatch saves. Termies multi charge the screamers and flamers, deleting the flamers before they can strike and taking a wound from the screamers who lose combat and take 2 wounds from instability, killing another screamer.

Tzeentch
LoC lands and gets into B2B with the relic. TSons and Sorc move towards the 1 HP 'Raider again, TSons squad #2 and Horrors continue to slowly move forwards.

Psychic phase sees doombolt delete 2 terminators, shriek drops 5 crusaders in the ruins, netting my Sorc +1 initiative from the boon table for killing the sarge. Shame he's wielding a force axe... Sacrifice fails to go off on 2 dice and a 2 charge flickering fire fails to go off despite 5 dice.

LoC runs 5" with the relic, getting out of LOS of 'Raider #2, Horrors continue to slog forwards, 'Drake sets up on the tacs in ruins.

'Drake deletes the remainder of the crusader squad in the ruins.

TSons #1 and Sorc charge the 1 HP 'Raider and make it, but fails to even glance with his Melta Bomb, rolling a 3.

Screamers and herald lose combat sufficiently to evaporate and the Termies consolidate towards the TSons and Sorc.

Spoiler: Turn 4

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Black Templars
'Raiders shuffle 6" back. 'Raider #1 kills 1 more TSon from squad #1.

Crusaders and Termies charge TSons #1 and Sorc, killing the squad before they swing and the Sorc fails 1 armour and 1 invo (rending) and dies before he can swing. There's Warlord to the BT player.

Tzeentch
LoC Continues to flee with the relic. TSons #2 and Horrors continue to slowly move forwards attempting to get linebreaker. 'Drake goes after the remaining 2 crusaders, but can't get anything in his arc, so must settle for vector striking a terminator, who passes his invo.

Psychic phase sees a 2 warp charge flickering fire denied, sacrifice fail to go off twice.

LoC runs with the relic, Horrors continue to slog forwards. Now it's just running out the clock as there's not much real combat to be had.

Spoiler: Turn 5

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Black Templars
'Raiders shuffle 6" forwards. 'Raider #1 all the Horrors. Crusaders and Termies move towards the LoC.

Crusaders and Termies run towards the LoC.

Tzeentch
LoC Continues to flee with the relic. TSons #2 continue to slowly move forwards attempting to get linebreaker. 'Drake decides to go into hover to attempt to get linebreaker.

Psychic phase sees a 2 warp charge flickering fire put some wounds on the 2 remaining characters and give them FNP 6+, sacrifice from the LoC goes off on 1 dice (to avoid perils) and another disk herald is created, but scatters 10" directly away from his deployment zone. FFS!

LoC runs with the relic, Herald Turbo Boosts out of LOS but in position to make it uncontested deep into his deployment zone next turn. 'Drake roasts a termie at extreme range with the flamer. Game ends. GG.

Spoiler: Results

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I've got the relic, he's got 1st blood and warlord, we've both got units in our oppoents DZ, but neither are entirely within, so no-one has linebreaker. 3-2 Win to me, Yay!

But wait! He's Black Templars, so his chapter tactics gives him d3 victory points for slaying the enemy warlord in a challenge! He rolls a 5, getting 3 VP and changing a narrow 2-3 loss into a 5-3 win! Victory to the Emperors Finest this day!

Spoiler: Conclusions

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Great game all around that was quite enjoyable for both parties. Other than deploying my forgefiend too close, I'm not sure what else I could have really achieved given the list I took and the list I was facing. I'm just lucky that my opponent forgot to use his orbital and that he didn't just deploy on the line, move 6" disembark 6" into B2B with the relic and then remount his 'Raider next turn and drive off into a corner as I wouldn't have really been able to stop him bar getting free with the screamers, and even then I think they would have been beaten down.

Turning a single Horror into a Lord of Change (eventually) was pretty Rad, and it almost won me the game, but alas, it was not to be. I probably should have rolled on Sanctic (and given that I rolled a 6, I would have gotten Vortex) to try and deal with his raiders, but I decided to try for invis and didn't get it, though my trend of rolling high on shriek continues. As usual, the Forgefiend and 'Drake are winners, though without anything to torrent, the chariot was reduced to failing miserably with the lascannon again. I've not managed to stick a single wound with the lascannon so far, and am rapidly thinking that it's not to be "relied" on (insomuch as you can rely on a d3 shot weapon on a BS3 model made out of wet cardboard).

Suggestions on how I could have played would be nice, but without pics, I don't expect any major insights.

[Cheesegear]

12 (?) man crusader squad, Veteran Sarge, Heavy bolter and something else I think, probably melta or flamer.
16(?) man crusader squad, Veteran Sarge with thunder hammer, melta gun(s?), Land Raider Crusader w/ Multimelta
6 man Assault Terminators, Land Raider Crusader w/ Multimelta

Double Land Raiders means yeah, you might could use a Burning Chariot or three since Thousand Sons is adamant about being unreliable.

Relic (it's always relic, it's my curse) and Vanguard (also rapidly becomeing my curse), no night fighting.

A real man plays Hammer and Anvil with The Relic. What do you mean Tau need Devilfish? Bollocks.

Herald got scriers gaze prescience and The torrent flamer power from Maelific

That's unfortunate.

He denies doombolt on the raider

How many dice did you throw into it? Only Iron Hands Vehicles get the benefit of Chapter Tactics, so Black Templar Land Raiders don't have Adamantium Will. Only models with Psychic Hoods can Deny the Witch while inside a Transport - but Black Templars aren't going to have any of those. So, he has to roll 6s to Deny. How many successes did you roll?

The newly promoted Lord of Change doesn't scatter and rolls sacrifice and scriers gaze prescience for his powers.

That's unfortunate.

He's Black Templars, so his chapter tactics gives him d3 victory points for slaying the enemy warlord in a challenge!

That's a Warlord Trait. His 'something meh' that he rolled out of the Space Marines Traits gives him extra VPs and is really something you need to pay attention to, because you know he has the Trait, so you keep your Warlord away from his. Anytime your opponent busts out a rule that gives him extra VPs for anything, you need to make sure that the doesn't Do The Thing.

Rad

Where 'rad' is capitalised.

Suggestions on how I could have played would be nice

Assuming all dice rolls would have been the same, of course. The only thing you did wrong was not paying attention to his Warlord Trait ('something meh' my behind! That's Lysander's fixed Trait and he wins games with it all the time). Relic is a very low scoring game. Whoever has the Relic basically wins. The other problem in this match-up is that Black Templars build their Characters for Challenges, and Chaos Marines have to Accept, making it a really poor match-up, and that's before you factor in unreliable Thousand Sons vs. Land Raiders. But, ultimately, the thing reads that you played the Mission exactly right, and your opponent rolled nothing but 6s on Deny the Witch tests.

[Ricky S]

Skyfire & interceptor IIRC, so normally, yeah, fire at closest target, but on the turn something comes in, you can intercept, and it's likely to be planes, though they can also put deepstrikers and outflankers nearer to you to force you to shoot at those. But hopefully that just means they've clumped up as targets for my vindicators.

[/spoiler]

Well its only really a threat when it intercepts, otherwise your opponent can just place something cheap in the line of fire. Still that turn something arrives it could be in for a world of pain, especially if its a vehicle.

[Drasius]

Double Land Raiders means yeah, you might could use a Burning Chariot or three since Thousand Sons is adamant about being unreliable.

Yeah, I've been running 3 in my normal Tzeentch daemons list and I like 'em, but could only get 1 due to having to use allies due to points restrictions. Chaos could definately use a wording change to allow the force org change for cult units when used as allies.

A real man plays Hammer and Anvil with The Relic. What do you mean Tau need Devilfish? Bollocks.

Eh, Relic just seems to come up a lot when I'm around, even when I'm not playing, and I mean a lot, like over 50% a lot.

That's unfortunate.

Yep.

How many dice did you throw into it? Only Iron Hands Vehicles get the benefit of Chapter Tactics, so Black Templar Land Raiders don't have Adamantium Will. Only models with Psychic Hoods can Deny the Witch while inside a Transport - but Black Templars aren't going to have any of those. So, he has to roll 6s to Deny. How many successes did you roll?

I was throwing 2 or 3 dice at WC1 powers most times and still only getting 1 success. My psychic phase had no luck for most of the game. IIRC this time and on dispelling the Dark flame he only had 1 dice and managed to dispell them both times (doombolt on the raider with a 6, dark flame on the troops was a 5) due to me only getting a single success. It was all by the book, the dice just didn't go my way for a large portion of the game, but they were definately against me in the psychic phase.

That's unfortunate.

Yep.

That's a Warlord Trait. His 'something meh' that he rolled out of the Space Marines Traits gives him extra VPs and is really something you need to pay attention to, because you know he has the Trait, so you keep your Warlord away from his. Anytime your opponent busts out a rule that gives him extra VPs for anything, you need to make sure that the doesn't Do The Thing.

Huh, I thought that was a BT thing rather than his warlord thing. I was actually reasonably confident of force weaponing his commander down because Force axe & 2+/4++ vs lightning claws without EW usually ends well for me, but I still can't make armour saves, and he wiped the screamers 1 round earlier than anticipated, so he got the charge. Oh well, it'll teach me to pay better attention next time.

Where 'rad' is capitalised.

Yep. Getting a 230 point model in exchange for a 9 point model is Rad with a capital R.

Assuming all dice rolls would have been the same, of course. The only thing you did wrong was not paying attention to his Warlord Trait ('something meh' my behind! That's Lysander's fixed Trait and he wins games with it all the time). Relic is a very low scoring game. Whoever has the Relic basically wins. The other problem in this match-up is that Black Templars build their Characters for Challenges, and Chaos Marines have to Accept, making it a really poor match-up, and that's before you factor in unreliable Thousand Sons vs. Land Raiders. But, ultimately, the thing reads that you played the Mission exactly right, and your opponent rolled nothing but 6s on Deny the Witch tests.

Thanks for the confirmation. I chatted with my opponent afterwards and he couldn't really think of anything else I could have done either. And yes, far to many 6's on deny checks for my liking, despite me never rolling more than 3 for the d6 psychic phases.

[Turalisj]

So my necron collection now sits at: 2 overlords, 1 Obyron, 32 warriors, 10 immortals, 8 scarab bases, 2 annihilation barges, 1 doomscythe, 3 wraiths, 3 tomblades, 1 ghost ark, 5 lychguard, and 5 death marks.


Any suggestions on how I could build an army with this? I have a lot of shooting stuff with a bit of melee.

[Drasius]

Harlequin powers and artifacts :












Old Nightfight is pretty awesome, Dance of shadows is brutal for armies that don't have easy ignores cover access and Reverse invis is nice, especially on something like Farsight bomb, Imperial Knights or wraiths. Won't work as well on grav cents (because tiggy), Flyrants (Because flyrant) or thundercav (because rune priests), but still, a very nice tool in the diamond print toybox. Mirror of minds would be lulzy on MC's though, and laugh of sorrows has the potential to be absolutely brutal.

Shame the pistol doesn't work with solitares, or Blitz would've been brutal, running for a 3++ is pretty neat. The sword appears to be wildy overcosted unless I'm missing something. The mask of secrets will be devastating to certain armies when combined with the DE relics, and just handy all 'round I suspect.

Webway walker is great, allowing for deploying out of LOS for anything vulnerable to your opponent.

Edit:
Formations, warlord traits and such leaked alledgedly, there are some doozies in here!

Formations:

1) 3 Troups, 3 Death Jesters, 3 Shadow Seers, 1 Solitaire, 2 units of Skyweavers, 1 unit of Voidweavers
Restriction: none
Special rules:*
- outstanding performace (you may reroll inv saves of 1 for all the models of the formation)
- emissary of Cegorach (if the troup master is your warlord, you can reroll his harlequin's warlord trait)
- pressing Crescendo (from the beginning of turn 2, all units in this formation with the Fleet special rule can Run and Charge in the same turn)

2) 3 Troupes, 2 units of Skyweavers, 3 Starweavers, 1 unit of Voidweavers

Restrictions:
- each Troupe must take one of the formation Starweavers as a Dedicated Transport

Special rules:*
- emissary of Cegorach (if the troup master is your warlord, you can reroll his harlequin's warlord trait)
- the aerial walk (one Troup from this formation can use his Hit&Run to embark in a free Starweaver from this formation. If the Hit&Run rolled distance is enough to move all models within 2" of the Starweaver the Troupe can embark immediately. If a consolidation movement is enough to move all models within 2" of a free Starweaver from this formation the Troupe can embark immediately) !!!


3) "company of actors"
1 Troupe, 1 Death Jester, 1 Shadow Seer

Restrictions:
- all models from this formation must deployed as a single unit. DJ & SS can't leave the unit

Special rules:*
- crusader
- heralds of the Laughing's God (any models with the Eldar or Dark Eldar faction (friend or foe) within 6" from one or more models of this formation gain the crusader special rule)

4) "Cegorach's jest"
1 Troupe, 1 unit of Skyweavers, 1 unit of Voidweavers

Restrictions:none

Special rules:*
- pressing Crescendo (from the beginning of turn 2, all units in this formation with the Fleet special rule can Run and Charge in the same turn)

5) "Way of heroes"
1 Death Jester, 1 Shadow Seer, 1 Solitaire

Restrictions:none

Special rules:*
- Infiltrate
- shrouded
- stealth
- a lonesome path (models from this formation cannot join other units and no one can join them)


6) "Faolchu's Blade"
2 units of Skyweavers, 1 unit of Voidweavers

Restrictions:none

Special rules:*
- the Wings of Faolchù (you may reroll failed cover saves while jinking with units of this formation)

Warlord Traits

Death Jester and Shadow Seer can roll a D6 on the BRB tables or a D3 (that's not a typo) on the Harlequins ones
The Troupe master can roll a D6 on every tables (BRB & codex)

"Light" table

1) the warlord reroll all to-hit of 1 (shooting & cc) and all saves of 1
2) 4+ inv for the the warlord*
3) the warlord and his unit can add 1" every time they move (movement, running, charging, fall back, regroup, hit&run, consolidation, sweep etc etc)
4) you can add 4 to any roll to steal the initiative
5) before deployment, choose up to D3 units from your primary detachment. every unit gain one of: deep strike, infiltrate, scout (choose as you like)
6) immediately after deployment and after scout moves, you can remove from the table your warlord and/or up to other D3 friendly units with the Harlequins faction within 12" of the warlord. Any units removed this way may immediately deployed using normal deploiment rules or put in Reserve

"Twighlight"
1) the warlord reroll all to-hit of 1 (shooting & cc) and all saves of 1
2) 4+ inv for the the warlord
3) the warlord and his unit can add 1" every time they move (movement, running, charging, fall back, regroup, hit&run, consolidation, sweep etc etc)
4) if the mission use variable lenght, you can add or substract 2 to the roll to determine if the game ends
5) any to-wound roll of 6 made by the warlord in close combat (or any to-wound roll of 5+ while making a Kiss of Death attack) gain the Instant Death special rule
6) once per game your warlord and his unit can make a "mirror leap" instead of moving: they can move 24", moving over other models and terrains like in open terrain but cannon end over other models or in impassable terrains. They cannot charge in the same turn

"Darkness"
1) the warlord reroll all to-hit of 1 (shooting & cc) and all saves of 1
2) 4+ inv for the the warlord
3) the warlord and his unit can add 1" every time they move (movement, running, charging, fall back, regroup, hit&run, consolidation, sweep etc etc)
4) enemy units in base contact with the warlord or his unit must roll an additional D6 while taking Fear or Morale tests
5) at the end of the game, before declaring the winner, you can move one time only your warlord and his unit like in the movement phase, than they can run or shoot like in the shooting phase, and, next, if you so desire, can charge and fight a single turn of combact like in the assault phase (the adversary can overwath and fight normally). If your warlord is locked in combat at the end of the game, he and his unit can only choose to fight an additional turn of combat. If the warlord unit is embarked, it can disembark but the transport cannot move or shoot. After the warlord and his unit have done this extra action the game end
6) if your warlord is removed from play while in a challenge, the players roll out immediately: if you win the roll out or if it is a tie the adversary of your warlord is removed as well

Yes, 1-3 is meant to be the same on all the tables due to the rules for the Death Jester and Shadow Seer. Some blatently broken crap in there, which is odd after making an effort to remove most of the 2+ re-roll from other codecies they add in some pretty obvious ones here. Maybe they think it's OK since it's a cover save?

[LordDavenport]

I mean it just makes tau better in the meta... and I guess they are trying to get people to buy tomb blades? Tau seem like they will be the bane of harliquins....

Also I kinda want to see a full army of "way of heros" formations.

[Eldan]

Well, pressing Crescendo is awesome, I must say. Especially with that item that gives a 3+ save when running.

[Cheesegear]

So my necron collection now sits at: 2 overlords, 1 Obyron, 32 warriors, 10 immortals, 8 scarab bases, 2 annihilation barges, 1 doomscythe, 3 wraiths, 3 tomblades, 1 ghost ark, 5 lychguard, and 5 death marks.

Any suggestions on how I could build an army with this?

It's Necrons. What you have is your army. It's literally the easiest book in the game to build a list with.

Necrons, CAD
(W) Overlord; Gauntlet of Fire, Warscythe, Res Orb, Phase Shifter, Nightmare Shroud - 195 Points
Overlord; Gauntlet of Fire, Warscythe, Res Orb, Phase Shifter - 160 Points

Warriors (x10) + Ghost Ark - 235 Points
Warriors (x12) - 156 Points
Warriors (x10) - 130 Points
Immortals (x7); Tesla Carbines - 119 Points

Lychguard (x5); Hyperphase Sword and Dispersion Shields - 150 Points
Deathmarks (x5) - 90 Points

Canoptek Wraiths (x3); Whip Coils - 129 Points
Canoptek Scarabs (x4) - 80 Points

Doom Scythe - 160 Points
Annihilation Barge - 120 Points
Annihilation Barge - 120 Points

Total: 1844 Points

The mobility on your Troops is terrible (no Night Scythes!), so you're relying on all your other units to capture Objectives in your opponents' DZ. You've also got a Reclamation Legion happening there, whatever you can't fit into a Reclamation goes into a CAD.

Necrons, Reclamation Legion
(W) (W) Overlord; Gauntlet of Fire, Warscythe, Res Orb, Phase Shifter, Nightmare Shroud - 195 Points

Warriors (x10) + Ghost Ark - 235 Points
Warriors (x10) - 130 Points
Immortals (x5); Tesla Carbines - 85 Points

Lychguard (x5); Hyperphase Sword and Dispersion Shields - 150 Points

Tomb Blades; Shieldvanes, Nebuloscopes - 62 Points

Necrons, CAD
Overlord; Gauntlet of Fire, Warscythe, Res Orb, Phase Shifter - 160 Points

Warriors (x12) - 156 Points
Immortals (x5); Tesla Carbines - 85 Points

Canoptek Wraiths (x3); Whip Coils - 129 Points
Canoptek Scarabs (x3) - 60 Points

Doom Scythe - 160 Points
Annihilation Barge - 120 Points
Annihilation Barge - 120 Points

Total: 1847 Points

You'll notice that for most of it I just copy-pasted from the first list, because Necrons don't have options. Building a Necron list is the equivalent of building a Vehicle from a Rhino chassis. It's so repetitive that you should be able to 70% or more without even thinking.

The CAD Troops stay behind on your own Objectives, and try to Objective Secure over your opponent's models who get into your DZ. The Reclamation Legion uses its minor increase in mobility (still no Night Scythes) to move up the board.

[JNAProductions]

I'm a new player of WH40k, and I'm planning on a Nurgle CSM army. I've got a basic 1500 point list, and I'd like some advice on it.

Spoiler: Nurgle Chaos Space Marine Army

Show

270 Typhus
150 35 Plague Zombies
295 10 Plague Marines (2 Meltas, Rhino)
295 10 Plague Marines (2 Meltas, Rhino)
90 3 Chaos Spawn
90 3 Chaos Spawn
90 3 Chaos Spawn
192 5 Chaos Terminators (Lightning Claws)
1472

Typhus is with the Plague Zombies.
Terminators are to be held in reserve for deep-striking near important things.

A few questions I have:
How valuable would Mark of Nurgle be on the Zombies?
Am I equipping my Plague Marines well, and are the Rhinos worth it?
Are the Spawn worth it at all?
Should I keep Lightning Claws on my Terminators?
Can I justify Mark of Tzeetch on my Terminators for 4++ according to fluff?

Thanks in advance for advice.

[The Patterner]

I'm a new player of WH40k, and I'm planning on a Nurgle CSM army. I've got a basic 1500 point list, and I'd like some advice on it.

Spoiler: Nurgle Chaos Space Marine Army

Show

270 Typhus
150 35 Plague Zombies
295 10 Plague Marines (2 Meltas, Rhino)
295 10 Plague Marines (2 Meltas, Rhino)
90 3 Chaos Spawn
90 3 Chaos Spawn
90 3 Chaos Spawn
192 5 Chaos Terminators (Lightning Claws)
1472

Typhus is with the Plague Zombies.
Terminators are to be held in reserve for deep-striking near important things.

A few questions I have:
How valuable would Mark of Nurgle be on the Zombies?
Am I equipping my Plague Marines well, and are the Rhinos worth it?
Are the Spawn worth it at all?
Should I keep Lightning Claws on my Terminators?
Can I justify Mark of Tzeetch on my Terminators for 3++ according to fluff?

Thanks in advance for advice.

Well, the terminators should not get a 3++ but a 4++ unless I'm mistaken somewhere. And you need some AP2 weapons in that unit.

Regarding justification, you can allways justify it you want it badly enough. Overall though, you need a good explanation for Nurgle and Tzeentch working with eachother (they are not on friendly terms).

[JNAProductions]

4++, my bad. And I'd rather have a close-knit family of an army. Papa Nurgle is about camaraderie and the joys of life, and cramming in backstabbing Tzeetchians... No thank you.

Alright, slightly modified list, with fluff now. (I like to picture Nurgle as a very grandfatherly figure, so I decided to make the army a family matter.)

Spoiler: Nurgle Chaos Space Marine Army

Show

Google Doc for the army
270 Typhus
150 35 Plague Zombies
295 10 Plague Marines (2 Meltas, Rhino)
295 10 Plague Marines (2 Meltas, Rhino)
120 4 Chaos Spawn
90 3 Chaos Spawn
90 3 Chaos Spawn
182 5 Chaos Terminators (Meltas)
1492

Typhus is with the Plague Zombies.

Terminators are to be held in reserve for deep-striking near important things.

Army list is designed as a “family” with Typhus as the dad and other relations as noted. Battles are family outings. Spreading disease is the family tradition. Before battle, there will be a pep-talk like that of a dad who coaches his son’s baseball team. Upon victory, there is to be celebrations, congratulations, all manner of “Good job, sport!” and similar. Upon defeat, there is to be a bunch of “Good try, kids! Try harder next time!” and similar.
I... May not quite get the fluff for 40k yet.

For 1000 points solo, drop 1 set of Plague Marines and 210 points of Spawn.
For 1000 points on a team that can cover tough targets, drop Terminators, all Spawn, and one Melta.

I've got my Typhus blob for a very, very hard to kill HQ and a tarpit with fangs (well, one fang).
I've got my Plague Marines as troops for handling the real work, with a few meltas on each just in case.
I've got my Chaos Spawn to get in my enemy's face and keep them occupied (and hurt) while everyone else does their work.
And I've got my Terminators with meltas able to deep strike within range of anything in relative safety and melt it to slag.

Ways to improve it further? Comments on 1000 point modifications?