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2018-06-01, 01:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark
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2018-06-01, 01:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark
That's literally their official intended use:
Lastly, and most importantly, you must be able to wield a chainsword. Indeed it is impossible to effectively lead a squad without one. Chainswords are more than just weapons****. They are totems of your Emperor-granted authority. Use them to direct your squad’s fire, order an advance, and signal victory with a glorious thrust into the air (see bulletin #723-89A for advice on heroic poses)
...
****While your chainsword can also be used as a weapon, this is of secondary importance. The spinning, barbed teeth will throw blood and viscera all over your uniform, obscuring your Sergeant’s patch. If you must engage the enemy with your chainsword (ie, if you have failed in your duty to annihilate them at range), you may be well advised to use it as a sturdy club instead. Any damage to the weapon will be taken from your pay.
There's a reason why even in tabletop chainswords just hit as hard as any random piece of metal.
Lasgun. Very ammo-economical so it rarely needs to reload. Also guardsmen are trained for volley fire into mobs of big orks/xenos/other blobs of guardsmen so acuraccy is a secondary concern at best, plus your officer has probably ordered you to charge into the breach so no time to steady anything. And if it's too heavy, it's just easier to remove unneeded bits.
I could also point out that all lasguns have barrels the length of normal rifles... Which are basically useless for lasers. Adding barrels somehow makes the gun lighter? They also make a comfy pillow to rest your head?
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2018-06-01, 03:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark
I used to do LP's. Currently archived here:
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2018-06-01, 04:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark
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2018-06-01, 05:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark
Of course it's deadly! It's a sword with teeth!
I'm surprised the Charchardons don't use chain swords more often. It'd be more thematic. Another thing I'm suprised hasn't been done yet is Power Chainsword. If I remember correctly the closest thing that we have to that is Chain fist.Omnissiah grant me the strength to change what I can,
the patience to accept what I cannot,
and CHAINFISTS FOR HANDS. Amen.
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2018-06-01, 05:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark
In a traditional weapon, a longer barrel (among other things) increases accuracy over a greater range.
Given that as well as Las-Rifles, Las-carbines and Las-pistols also exist and have a shorter and shortest range respectively, there's probably a technological equivalent to rifling in laser weapons. Extra sets of magnifying lenses, or something - I'm pretty sure there's a cut-a-way diagram in one of the old rulebooks that proves this, maybe the 3rd edition BBB, but I forget exactly.
It's also something to which a bayonet can be affixed, and a longer weapon is a more efficient lever when trying to disengage it from someone's chest cavity. Whereas Carbines and pistols have their place, Rifles are possibly the most ergonomically suited to mass production and general use by trillions of Guardsmen in various situations; the long barrel does nothing to aid or impede the rifle, but the shape and size makes it useful for other things besides shooting.
It's not that they dislike chainswords, in so far as they just tend to prefer chain-axes. The Carcharodons are not subtle.
Another thing I'm surprised hasn't been done yet is Power Chainsword. If I remember correctly the closest thing that we have to that is Chain fist.
Similarly, chainswords require a certain amount of maintenance - the teeth get broken and the chains have to be replaced periodically. Having to make inherently disposable power-chains would be prohibitively expensive and complicated for even a single weapon, let alone doing it en-masse.
Not to say that someone, somewhere, hasn't done it, of course, but it would likely be a bespoke item for a multi-millionaire lunatic rather than a common occurrence.Last edited by Wraith; 2018-06-01 at 05:35 AM.
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2018-06-01, 05:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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2018-06-01, 05:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark
Maybe the machinery Is less compact? And that means less overheating explosions.
Omnissiah grant me the strength to change what I can,
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and CHAINFISTS FOR HANDS. Amen.
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2018-06-01, 06:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark
I've only read Phalanx so my opinion's limited. Traditional bolter porn, typical Ben Counter writing. The main protagonist reminds me of Gabriel Seth with a certain fatalism / trying to keep it together / we're gonna go down swinging - sort of thing. It was okay for what it was, I only spent some of the time thinking to myself "wow people are stupidly stubborn in the worst ways".
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2018-06-01, 06:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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2018-06-01, 07:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark
No they won't.
Hive Tyrant has 120 wounds, armour 10, and 15 toughness bonus. Prince has 80 wounds, armour 12, and 12 toughness bonus. The most damaging HB in all the systems is the Deathwatch one, which does 2d10+10, AP6. Max damage for a single hit is 30, barring Righteous Fury, since Righteous Fury is by no means 'easily.' Assuming max damage from all hits, the Tyrant takes 11 wounds per hit, and the Prince takes 12. You therefore need at least 11 max damage hits to kill a Tyrant, which is beyond the bolter's firing rate of Full Auto 10. The Prince is slightly easier, he only takes 7 full damage hits to kill. Possible, but not probable.
A Devastator with a Heavy Bolter is good. Very good. But he's not 'kill a Tyrant in one round' good, and never will be. The Prince, maybe, but that's assuming the best case scenario. The odds drop to zero if you use the alternate HB statline which does 1d10+12, or the HB from any other line.I used to do LP's. Currently archived here:
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2018-06-01, 08:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark
Because most people in the Imperium (if they own a weapon at all) own a slugthrower. So the random farm kid from Altris XII is used to shooting a gun that kicks.
Also what someone else said. It's very possible it just started that way, and no one changed it.
That would make sense as last guns are described as making a crack noise when they fire
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2018-06-01, 08:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark
Pretty sure that random farm kid is more used to bullseyeing womprats in his old T-16.
More on point, las technology seems pretty widespread, I'm not really sure which is more prevalent between las and slugs. In Necromunda novels at least there seems to be a good number of las guns around. Going by table top and using GSC as a weather vane for what might be the most readily accessible to civilians, autoguns and lasguns (and shotguns) are all available. I also had the impression that a number of las guns end up passed down from the great-grandpappy who used to be in the guard (and even at the abysmal survival rate that entails, we're still talking about a lot of survivors with the enlistment rates).
Are autoguns really all that much more prevalent?
@ deuterio12: question about lasguns being "Very ammo-economical so it rarely needs to reload". Is this something covered in the RPG (which I've never played)? I was under the impression the ammo benefits of the lasgun were the easy recharge for the powerpacks (i.e., leave them out in the sun, throw them in a campfire, etc), but that they run out of juice just like everything else. How many shots do they get to a powerpack?
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2018-06-01, 09:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark
To support Rizhail's comments on the stock, people have built stocks for the PS VR aim controller, which obviously has no recoil when shooting. Having used it myself, a two handed gun shaped controller feels really weird without a stock and I kept trying to hug it into my shoulder while playing Farpoint.
Off the top of my head, the only friendly soldiers he's shot offhand were two troopers which had been implanted by genestealers and he proves it to the surrounding soldiers by cutting out the implanted 'stealer mass from the bodies afterwards.
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2018-06-01, 09:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark
I think Ben Counter is the 'most 40K' writer that's ever written anything, aside from ADB, he writes off of two principles; Make it GrimDark. Make it cool.
He has a particular narrative style that, pretty much anything he writes can be taken out of context (Half-Spider Librarian Chapter Master, Khornate Grey Knight, etc.). But everything makes sense within the narrative. Which makes his particular way of story-telling pretty bizarre.
Thank you.
A Unit of Space Marines can potentially drop a large, monster-like creature in one round, and a strong contributor of being able to do that, is by having a Heavy Bolter in the Team. I can see how deuterio might think a Heavy Bolter can drop a monster in one round, since 'Killing something in one round' and 'Heavy Bolter' are usually typed in the same sentence. But, true to form, either he's cherry-picked the part of the sentence that fits his argument ("Oh, the Devastator is also Rank 7+, and has all the Talents, including bonus damage against Tyranids."), or he's totally misunderstood what he's actually read.
But, from my long experience playing Deathwatch, Majoris- and Extremis-level threats never appear in a vacuum. Now, while a Team could kill it in one round, three fifths of the Team is trying not to die, one Marine has triggered Primarch's Curse, and squad Cohesion has dropped through the floor, and the lone Marine still able to do max damage gets Disarmed (or dis-armed )and choke-slammed into the ground 'cause he has no backup.
But, everyone knows that Deathwatch isn't actually a game, and is only ever a thought exercise on how many Melta- weapons it takes to kill a Hive Tyrant.
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2018-06-01, 09:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark
In the RPGs a standard lasgun has 60 shots per pack, less if you dial it up to deal more damage which is very inefficient. An autogun has 30 shots per clip as I recall but has a much higher maximum rate of fire*.
The las will last you longer without reloading but the autogun is better for mowing people down very quickly, at least in theory. The laspack is also easy to recharge by just plugging it into any power source while you'd have to buy new autogun rounds.
*Lasguns have S/3/-, autoguns have S/3/10. Both can semi-auto for up to three hits but lasguns can't full auto while the autogun can do so for up to 10 hits.
EDIT: The lasgun also has a rule that makes it very hard to jam, which doesn't come up often but can be a lifesaver when it does.Last edited by Grim Portent; 2018-06-01 at 09:50 AM.
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2018-06-01, 09:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark
It's been a while since I've played DW so this might be wrong:
Heavy bolter does 2d10.
Tearing allows it to roll another dice and switch one of them out if it's better.
Righteous fury is on a 10.
1/3 chance of rolling a 10 on each dice.
Properly optimized, you stand a good chance of getting 2-3 righteous fury per round. Eventually ones going to roll a 9-10 on the RF and murder it horribly.Omnissiah grant me the strength to change what I can,
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2018-06-01, 09:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark
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2018-06-01, 09:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark
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2018-06-01, 09:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark
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2018-06-01, 10:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark
I have...Issues...With Phalanx. But, it's also one of the best novels in the six (plus one). If, like the other Poster, you read Phalanx by itself. Then yeah. The Chapter Master is fatalistic. But, within the story, he's had five books that have led to what is easily his worst point in the series, and he's been through a lot.
My issue is that maybe Counter intended to leave the story open for another book. But, in order to do so, he had to soft-retcon a previous major plot point, that had actually made it into the 40K tabletop canon for a decade. It's actually rare that something written in a novel gets put into the BRB/Codecies. And Ben Counter kind of...Undid it. Which is kind of impossible to actually do, since four years IRL, after the publishing of Phalanx, The War of the Beast said that the Soul Drinkers were part of The Last Wall protocol, which should've been impossible given what happened in Phalanx.
The alternative, is that both are true, and the Imperial Fists have been corrupted since M32.
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2018-06-01, 05:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark
Rolling a 10 is, naturally, 1/10 per dice. Bit of math tells me that the probability of rolling at least one 10, given two dice to do it, is 19%. Given 4 dice, it's 33%. Multi-event probabilities are not exactly my strong suit, but Deathwatch only allows one RF per hit anyways. You then need to confirm the RF, which is probably going to be about 70-80%, depending on a couple factors, but will in any case reduce the odds to about 26%. So, 1/4 of your hits will successfully generate additional damage. In the case of all 10 shots hitting, which itself is more or less impossible, 2.6 hits generate RF, typically for an average of 6 extra damage per, meaning 15.6 extra wounds dealt. While this does technically drop the tyrant into 'killable in one round' range, doing so still requires a set of circumstances so favourable as to be astronomically unlikely. Do note that my original math assumed you rolled a 10 on every single damage dice. With Tearing the chances of that are a little harder to calculate, but without it they're 1E-18 per cent.
EDIT: Did the math. It's 3.75E-15%, which is better by a couple orders of magnitude, but still not very likely.Last edited by Destro_Yersul; 2018-06-01 at 06:00 PM.
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2018-06-01, 06:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark
Is righteous fury done differently in Deathwatch? In only war there's those tables that you roll on for it and usually anything beyond a 7 was crippling/Death
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2018-06-01, 07:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark
Deathwatch uses the original system for crits from DH1, Only War uses the one from Black Crusade.
DH1/RT/DW whenever you roll a ten on the damage die for a non-psychic attack you roll to hit again, if you hit you get to roll another d10 damage and add it to your damage for the shot. Can't remember if they explode (as in a 10 on the bonus lets you roll another d10) by default or if that's just a common houserule.Sanity is nice to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there.
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2018-06-01, 08:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark
There's probably Deathwatch Training to auto-confirm RF on xenos.
On the other hand how often does the Kill Team fight a Hive Tyrant by itself.
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2018-06-01, 10:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark
Thanks.
Doesn't that mean (If we ignore the fact that Guardsmen have less wounds) a Guardsman could take down a Hive Tyrant faster than an Astartes specializing in the purging of such xenos? If we say he only gets 5 shots, he still has a really good chance of getting at least one RF. And if that ends up being a 9 or a 10 that thing is dead.Omnissiah grant me the strength to change what I can,
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2018-06-01, 10:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark
No, because the OW/BC crit rules roll a d5 for their effect, and cannot benefit from crit- boosting effects or talents. So the Guardsman will never score above a Crit 5, and if the Tyrant has True Grit, which it probably does, he'll never see above Crit 2.
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2018-06-01, 10:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark
Black Crusade and later (IE, Only War included) Righteous Fury is 1d5 on the critical table. It cannot possibly kill anything, merely debilitate and cripple. And a Guardsman's Lasgun is unlikely to actually harm a Hive Tyrant in the first place through the Tyrant's 24 damage soak, which defaults the Righteous Fury to 'do 1 Damage, unpreventable'.
An entire squad of veteran Guardsmen from Only War (IE, 3000-ish XP under their belt) would want to be really, really careful engaging a starting Deathwatch Space Marine, since the Marine will likely debilitate or kill them in a single good hit while they need to get their heavier weapons on target to do more than chip damage to the Marine, who happens to have the edge in speed, tactical awareness and accuracy in addition to his outrageous superiority in firepower (his Bolter will rival or outmatch whatever the Weapon Specialist and Heavy Weapons troopers are packing, with none of the downsides) and durability . A Hive Tyrant will probably TPK all but the most absurdly high-level Only War squad, and they certainly stand no chance of killing one unless they have heavy vehicle support or artillery backing them up. It simply has too many Wounds and too much damage soak for them to deal with otherwise.Avatar by the wonderful SubLimePie. Former avatar by Andraste.
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2018-06-02, 01:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark
It doesn't, but even if it did it wouldn't matter. True Grit affects Critical Damage, and the bonus critical hit effects generated by RF in the later systems are explicitly not Critical Damage. If the guardsman somehow managed to get past its armour and toughness, which he wouldn't, then he'd still be able to get a crit 5.
The RPGs tend to get a bit rocket tag-y on the higher end things, but all in all they're a reasonably accurate depiction of the power levels things are supposed to have in fluff. Heavy Bolters are nasty, and can indeed kill a Hive Tyrant if you have enough of them, firing enough bullets at it, for a long enough time. Five devastators with heavy bolters could take down a Tyrant much more easily than one could, though odds are decent it'd still take more than one round. Of course, last I checked five heavy bolters could probably down a tabletop Hive Tyrant too. And more to the point, as others have said, when is a Hive Tyrant ever alone?I used to do LP's. Currently archived here:
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2018-06-02, 01:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark
Worst thing about "Boss" type enemies. There's always so many minor threats around them that stop you from focusing fire on them, unless you don't mind getting eaten by hive guard. Atleast Khornate ones can be isolated for a duel but then you have to go one on one melee with a guy worshipping the god of melee combat (Slaanesh is a freak and doesn't count)
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