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2012-12-06, 03:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
Would the Tau use genetic engineering and other biology-based technologies? The Culture could provide mechanisms to allow biological immortality.
That might make the Ethereals start to plan in the much longer term if the Tau in general live much longer.Stories:
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2012-12-06, 03:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
Actually, being willing to play the long game is one of their noted traits on a strategic level. While they can be hot-headed and ambitious, it's outright stated that they are capable of being extremely patient in their efforts to expand, focusing on diplomacy and slow cultural shifts when force isn't appropriate. Look at that Imperial world they were gunning for in the Cain book; their plan there was literally to maintain constant cultural exchange with the citizens of the planet for generations until eventually Tau sympathizers gained enough sway over the planet's government to join the Empire willingly. They were already over a hundred years into said plan by the time of the novel's events. That's not the kind of strategy a shortsighted race comes up with. I can't think of a single example of that kind of patient, long-term planning in the entire history of the human race. We're talking about efforts that weren't even intended to pay off in the lifetimes of the people initiating them.
In this case, given the immense military capability of the Culture, I imagine that the Tau would have to adopt the same approach by necessity. Hence the interminable philosophical argument as a long-term result of Tau-Culture interactions.
Edit:
Let me put it this way: If you can't see a major cultural downside to using it, the Tau will adopt and make widespread use of any technology, ever. They already practice eugenics programs; high-end genetic engineering would have the Earth and Etherial Castes giggling like schoolgirls at the possibilities. As of right now their biotech is distinctly primitive in comparison to the rest of their tech, which is why they aren't already doing it. Just keep in mind that they wouldn't likely allow the Culture to do the modifying themselves; they'd want the full theory behind it first, and might take years to study and experiment with it before adopting it.Last edited by DaedalusMkV; 2012-12-06 at 03:08 AM.
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2012-12-06, 03:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
That's not the kind of strategy a shortsighted race comes up with.
Just keep in mind that they wouldn't likely allow the Culture to do the modifying themselves; they'd want the full theory behind it first, and might take years to study and experiment with it before adopting it.
I mean, they probably won't let the Culture set up a booth entitled "We-Modify-Ur-Citizens". But if the Culture says they can provide an immortality formula, but have to keep it confidential? I think the Tau would accept. They'd want assurances of safety and such... but they wouldn't need the Eldar's prideful concern about self mastery.Avatar by Simius
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2012-12-06, 08:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
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2012-12-06, 11:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
part 8.5 Tau
SpoilerWeek 2
We are currently talking to the Tau Water caste about the details for a technology exchange. There is some resistance to our condition that the Tau also limit their expansion to non-IoM worlds and that annexation of occupied planets only occur through voluntary integration into the Greater Good. Nevertheless, the Tau are not about to rush into a hasty agreement and nothing but guidelines for further discussion have been laid.
Negotiations with the Ultramarines have had a poor start. Macragge first ordered us out of the system, to which Gunboat Diplomacy acquiesed and withdrew one and a half lightyears. The communications with Macragge are still continuing and some concern among the Ordo Xenos about our ability to continue contact despite the withdrawal has been noted.
For now, we are simply aiming at starting a three-way conversation with the Tau, with the aim of enabling a technology exchange with the Tau without adversely affecting the balance of power in this region.
Apart from the technology exchange, we are working towards an agreement with the Tau towards a minor cultural exchange with a view towards expansions into a broader exchange of ideas. The Tau are curious about our society and culture, as much as we of theirs, so we foresee no major stumbling blocks in this process.
The Tau have accepted our gift of information on Chaos and transfer of information has begun, as well as a warning about contaminations and data on psychological profiles and detection testing on humans. To their credit, the Tau have reciprocated with political information on the nearby stars. We note that despite the Tau innate resistance to Chaos, Chaos profiles on humans will come in useful to detecting contaminations amoung the small assimilated human population.
The Tau have agreed to share our stance that Chaos is a major threat to the galaxy, albeit it is a distant one to them. Nevertheless, we are working on a mutual aid agreement with respect to the Tyranids for them and Chaos for us. This is expected to take some time and is being planned for the extremely long term when the Tau can be trusted further. (and when they can trust us more)
It is noted that our relative freedom to act in this galaxy is in no small part due to the lack of other Involved competitors like the Homodan as well as Ascended. (although the Chaos Gods might qualify for that)
Week 3
Scans of Tau space with improved and Displacer-aided Warp Scanners appears to indicate unusually little warp activity with the Tau. Only a few minor allied or assimilated races have warp activity.
Standard patterns of Chaos contamination among the Tau are non-existent. This makes them exceedingly interesting and we have made our interest in analyzing their Chaos resistance known.
The IoM are notably less hostile and suspicious than would be expected from Starry Banner's encounter with the Inquisition in the core of IoM holdings. There may still be hope for a short term peace in this area of the galaxy.Stories:
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2012-12-06, 11:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
This isn't far from the case.
It's worth re-iterating though that they are also pretty blind to the dangers of the universe. This is shown pretty clearly by their continued picking at the Imperium, a faction that could through sheer weight of numbers render them extinct and has a noted history of doing exactly that to hostile alien empires.
But their continued lack of respect for the dangerousness of the Imperium is nothing compared to their complete lack of knowledge of Chaos or the implications thereof.
I mean, their goal is to regularly absorb planets full of human beings and they have no canon methods for dealing with the dangers that presents. Likewise with their throwing technology around. Unlike the Culture, the Tau don't come with the assumption that they operate in a rational, neutral universe they are very much entirely a part of the grimdark, twisted reality of the others and the near inevitability of there being catastrophic problems arising in their near future is very much a thing. Their greatest defence, their dull souls, is also their greatest weakness.
Edit - Arguably they know less about the nature of their universe than the Culture do. This shouldn't be ignored lightly.Last edited by Tiki Snakes; 2012-12-06 at 11:52 AM.
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2012-12-06, 12:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
Stories:
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2012-12-06, 12:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
Right. That's why the Tau are not fighting wars with the Imperium. Wait...no, they are.
As for a static culture...the question was would the Tau are they now be satisfied by settling fringe worlds. Considering the Tau's cultural construction, as well as the core principles of said culture(which do put emphasis on spreading the greater good), I'd think you'd need some pretty significant forces to change said culture.
Where are you getting that idea from the Cold War? Seriously, that seems counter to most of what I know about it.
Have the Tau really accepted things without understanding?
And, well, I seriously doubt the Culture would be willing to give up it's immortality methods. Those have a host of concerns attached to their use, after all.He fears his fate too much, and his reward is small, who will not put it to the touch, to win or lose it all.
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2012-12-06, 12:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
Where are you getting that idea from the Cold War? Seriously, that seems counter to most of what I know about it.
The cultural Cold War wasn't just fought in America and Russia. In the entire rest of the world, the warring ideologies of those countries clashed, with aid, treaties, and goods as weapons. Even amongst the Communist and Western powers, The Iron curtain was a lot more malleable than you might believe, and cultural exchanges were routinely set up to try and impress the other side with how efficient your method of doing things was. Eastern Europe was blanketed with American products and media through the black market *and* legitimate channels, Western Europe was filled with propaganda from Communist sponsored organizations. In high culture and art, cultural exchanges took place. In building and architecture.. in almost every walk of life there was political and ideologized cultural exchange.
Have the Tau really accepted things without understanding?
The Tau aren't ultra suspicious and paranoid. They take sensible precautions, and they'd have to be convinced the deal was a good one, but they might well be willing to accept a confidentiality clause or similar.
Spoiler
Although frankly, I think the Eldar would too. The Eldar arrogance might keep them from admitting the new tech is better initially, but given that it clearly is... Well. The Eldar didn't really make most of their own tech. They just got it handed to them by a bunch of gods, so they could fight a war. The Eldar aren't scientists. They're a bunch of aesthetes, soldiers and artisans, led by mystics.
If they can scan the future and see that accepting it is likely to result in good things, and get an idea of the consequences, I think they'd be willing to accept another windfall from the gods.Avatar by Simius
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2012-12-06, 01:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
Well, the Tau seriously, honestly, and ultimately _correctly_ believe that they can do a better job of governing worlds than the Imperium can. After all, the Imperium is very obviously backwards and barbaric and oppressive. The only possible flaw in this plan is that they don't have a solid, effective, robust, expandible plan for how to manage and contain Chaos, and various other sorts of insiduous corruptions that target humans (including genestealers and a large number of other entities and races that subtly infiltrate humans or take over human minds and such)... because a major part of the reason that the IoM is so barbaric is a necessary (for their tech level) reaction to those sorts of things. If the Culture can help the Tau realize that the reason the IoM is so foul is this sort of thing, and that until they have at least as effective and also morally superior methods of containing those sorts of things themselves, they really SHOULD NOT annex human-filled worlds. One thing that should probably be rapidly realized is that these sorts of things (which, again, isn't limited to just Chaos) is a major part of why the Tau Empire is having such a huge problem with governing certain planets full of humans that they recently added to their Empire, but not others in 'similar' situations.
After all, they have had lots of trouble dealing with these sorts of things, and due to their lack of understanding and effective counters, they have been doing things that they themselves feel are highly unethical to these planets in exasperation -- essentially, they have been confronted with an outside context problem, and haven't even been able to recognize what it is and how big a deal this is, and what it means... even though they have directly fought Chaos militarily, on numerous times. Also remember that the Culture can ask for exchange of peoples, ie, different races to come live on their ships as part of a cultural exchange with the Tau. This could possibly include a myriad psykers from the assimilated races -- though the Tau are really, really hesitant about doing anything that might let the Imperium realize that there are races in their Empire that have psykers. Also, on tech -- the Tau do take and use things that they don't understand, but that is mostly because of major war pressures. They do put lots and lots of effort into understanding various different technologies, as well, but that is primarily (right now) for things applicable to the wars they are fighting.
Also, I have a completely different topic to open to questions for other folk...
What precisely happens if a ship jumps into the warp...
...and people look out the windows, ie, without something to block line of sight?
...and there is a camera on the hull, trying to record what is seen?
...and sensors attempt to operate around the hull, in general, but aren't connected to any actual machine intelligence?
...and someone biological tries to look through a visual sensor that can scan things beyond what their eyes can see, and it is pointed outwards?
...if a machine intelligence tries to look through sensors into the warp?
There has to be a reason that both the Imperium and even the Eldar know not to look directly at the warp, or through sensors to look at the warp, and a reason why prognosticators exist rather than having a viewport for one guy who will inevitably go mad through looking around to navigate, and instead goggles that make people go mad through looking around are used...Last edited by Gavinfoxx; 2012-12-06 at 02:47 PM.
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2012-12-06, 01:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
I know about most of the things you talk about, but I'm not sure the relationship between that and what the Tau are doing is that strong.
O'Shovah was a single person, and a renegade at that. Drawing a comparison from him to the Tau people as a whole is a pretty bad leap of logic.
Where is it said that they don't understand Ion Technology? I mean, by the fluff it seems they've made advances on it. Also, did they even get that from an outside source?
The Ethereals are pretty much stated to use Mind Control, but using them is kinda off topic. Unless you're actually going to try and argue that those pronouncements are technology.
As for Kroot Mercs and Cannibalism...I'm not sure how you're even getting this example. Are you trying to say that Tau forces also partake in the Kroot's cannibalism?He fears his fate too much, and his reward is small, who will not put it to the touch, to win or lose it all.
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2012-12-06, 01:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
Last edited by Gavinfoxx; 2012-12-06 at 01:56 PM.
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2012-12-06, 02:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
He fears his fate too much, and his reward is small, who will not put it to the touch, to win or lose it all.
-James Graham, 1st Marquess of Montrose
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2012-12-06, 02:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
Last edited by Gavinfoxx; 2012-12-06 at 02:08 PM.
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2012-12-06, 03:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
I have no idea why that's spoilered but;
The Eldar have been without the Old Ones for something like 50 million years. They are also fully intelligent beings, unlike the Orks who are forced into a genetic disposition to act a certain way and to know certain things. They were certainly designed/uplifted by the Old Ones but they weren't designed to be a weapon like Orks were.
So basically there is no reason for them to be without scientists. In fact assuming they are without scientists would be just weird if you think about it.Spoiler: I'm a writer!Spoiler: Check out my fanfiction[URL="https://www.fanfiction.net/u/7493788/Forum-Explorer"here[/URL]
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2012-12-06, 03:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
Yea, the Eldar have significant mastery over large fields of the sciences...
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2012-12-06, 03:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-12-06, 03:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
I have no idea why that's spoilered but;
So basically there is no reason for them to be without scientists. In fact assuming they are without scientists would be just weird if you think about it.
The Eldar might have had scientists at one point, during the Empire. But what we know about the Craftworld structure doesn't include anything similar. And with their ultra-regimented mono-dedicated personal lives? I could easily see the Craftworld Eldar not having a path for scientists.
Sure, they don't even make their equipment. They sing it into existence with warp wishes from fairy bone. They don't even have engineers... the skill set they use to produce things is pure psy-artistry.
I fully admit, this is just my speculation. But I certainly don't think the Eldar are quite so adamant about controlling the means of production as has been asserted. We definitely don't have a case study to compare it to. I think they are more concerned with adhering to their mystical visions to assure their survival. And not accepting the gifts of the culture probably has much stronger negative impact in the future trails than accepting...Avatar by Simius
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2012-12-06, 03:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
The Eldar are a highly imaginative, creative and psychic race. Their engineering already places a heavy emphasis on creative thought and the application of complex scientific principles. All of their technology base is centered around compensating for their low population and growth rate with excessively high quality. Given all of that, why on earth would they not have scientists?
They might not approach scientific development in the same way as modern-day humans, but it makes very little sense from what we know of them to assume that they just assemble everything by rote with no real understanding of how it works."Not trusting me might be the smartest decision you made since getting off of your horse."
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2012-12-06, 04:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
Well the real problem is that we have almost zero information on the Eldar besides their military capabilities (and honestly not much on that.) We do know they are proud, but we don't know how much so.
We do know that they have the greatest tech (or tied with Necrons) of all the races. We know they have some technology that they consider forbidden and just don't use. (Like that one Autarch's Spear of Doom). We know that some artifacts they used to wield have been lost and scattered around the galaxy. (Like the Blackstone Fortresses.)Spoiler: I'm a writer!Spoiler: Check out my fanfiction[URL="https://www.fanfiction.net/u/7493788/Forum-Explorer"here[/URL]
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2012-12-06, 04:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
I don't doubt the Eldar understand why and how their stuff works, but I also doubt they have 'scientists' in the way we think of them. To the Eldar, they've already hit their peak. They understand everything that matters, they had everything that matters, once they were everything that mattered. An integral part of science as we understand it is advancing the boundaries of thought and learning new things, but Eldar are primarily concerned with recovering the old.
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2012-12-06, 04:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
To be fair their society looked pretty close to perfect right before the Fall begun. They could do whatever they wanted, could literally move stars around to meet their whims, terraformed planets with ease, had the ability to essentially build planets (craftworlds), and knew that a pleasant afterlife awaited them after they eventually died, and if they really didn't want to die they could use soulstones instead.
Also we don't know how much they lost tech wise. They may still have the ability to move stars around and terraform planets but now doing so would be pointless. We do know they lost some major artifacts but we don't know which, how important they were, or how many.Last edited by Forum Explorer; 2012-12-06 at 04:23 PM.
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Spoiler: Original FictionThe Lost Dragon: A story about a priest who finds a baby dragon in his church and decides to protect them.
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2012-12-06, 04:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-12-06, 04:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
This would be my opinion of the matter- the Eldar were the first heritors of whatever the Old Ones gave their progeny races and had many millennium of being the uncontested leading race of the galaxy as well. From the Eldar standpoint, anything they are currently using is *already* as good as it gets; anything they *aren't* using is either undesirable, too dangerous to risk, impossible (as best as they know/knew prior to the Culture's Out Of Context arrival), or not feasible to apply in their society's post-Fall condition.
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2012-12-06, 04:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
He fears his fate too much, and his reward is small, who will not put it to the touch, to win or lose it all.
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2012-12-06, 05:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-12-06, 06:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
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2012-12-06, 06:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
Last edited by Oracle_Hunter; 2012-12-06 at 06:45 PM.
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2012-12-06, 06:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
Sorry, you're right about that. It was from...Use of Weapons. Sorry, read them back to back, so I guess I confused them a bit.
I guess we should probably differentiate between the culture level anti-aging stuff, which gives functional immortality, and somewhat lower tech versions, which simply prolong life. The former wouldn't be available till the Culture would be certain that the others could handle it. The latter would be much more likely to be traded.He fears his fate too much, and his reward is small, who will not put it to the touch, to win or lose it all.
-James Graham, 1st Marquess of Montrose
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2012-12-06, 07:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
I don't think they include small orphan children. :P
"The use of rejuvenating drugs, usually referred to as "rejuvenat" treatments, is commonplace amongst the middle and upper classes of all technologically advanced Imperial worlds. With regular use they can slow or even reverse human aging dramatically for centuries by repairing damaged DNA strands with specific enzymes and regularly cleansing the build-up of cellular and metabolic toxins from the human body"
But yes, it is expensive and resource intensive, but the basic premise -- using chemicals to rejuvenate and clean up and repair damaged parts of the body -- is sound. The Culture probably has more efficient ways of disseminating these processes, of course. And in the actual books, this is what The Culture prefers to use -- ie, stuff that lets you be several hundred years old, with social norms against taking the options to make yourself immortal (though this is an option). Presumably, in the centuries since the setting of the books of The Culture that I have read so far (~2100 AD), and the setting of THIS Culture (presumably 2800 AD +), these norms have changed.
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/L...n_Technologies An interesting read... look at 'The Proteus Protocol', as well. Apparently, it's possible for an uploaded psyker to have their psyker capabilities... (!!) Which is a profoundly big deal, especially if there is a Psyker (say, from one of the ancillary races in the Tau Empire) who wants to join The Culture and become immortal via upload...Last edited by Gavinfoxx; 2012-12-06 at 07:37 PM.