Erfworld 159 - tBfGK 146

[Leewei]

I think we need to know more before saying the Arkenpliers are overbalanced compared to other artifacts. For instance, decrypted units might croak their opponents in a way that destroys their bodies. In effect, you'd need 'regular' units in order to create new decrypted ones.

Even if the Arkenpliers work as advertised, the obvious drawback is that every other faction would want to stomp you before you reached critical mass.

Stanley might want to return to Gobwin Knob, not to defend it, but to make sure Wanda doesn't defect. He essentially left her there to die, after all.

[Sarcose]

I apologize, for I lost my patience reading through the last page (I have a hard time perusing a complete topic sometimes), so if this has already been said disregard my part in this, but allow me to add my two cents:

Now, my entire experience with games like this comes from Age of Wonders and Warlords Battlecry, and not tabletop wargames like this seems to have been designed from (based on Parson's introduction into the story, that is), but if I was opposite a side capable of reanimating my entire horde, I would take pains to not put any strong units in any situations where they might be killed until I had a decisive victory.

And then; weak units. First, I am seeing the implication that trolling around for poorly-defended, neutral aligned towns will result in a lot of defended poorly-defended towns, rather than just taking what's left of the town and bringing it back with you to add to the sum of your force, and leaving the town itself undefended so those units don't sap your upkeep. But regardless, the main advantage you give to the other side when you throw lots of weak units at them, and believe me I'd be giving them lots of weak units to be animated, is that you are setting up a slaughterhouse for XP grinding. Considering that overwhelming force in most games is not a match for a few max-levelled units (in games of that sort the XP system given to units is often the game breaker), and based on what Parson said about force multipliers (which would be a benefit of highly levelled units), tons of weak units would give my heroes something to eat.

Indeed, creeping starts by sending out heroes with a company of weak units that will be destroyed by the first encounter, but will also whittle it down enough for the Hero to reap the entire bounty of experience and take down any further encounters virtually on his own. I know I'm speaking strictly in game terms here, and these are actually real people and the former coalition are not AI warlords who would easily and coldly regroup (using maphax), but the more weak units, the better for my grinding. Weak units are useful, yeah, but the battle for Gobwin Knob was won and lost not with tons of weak units, but tons of weak units with force multipliers piled on top. If we're talking empire-size trouncing here, using the Arkenpliers to take over the whole world, then what I'm seeing is that all these spread out weak units are no longer going to have the entire concentration of available force multipliers allowed them by regrouping into a siege, and what I'm seeing is that they will be revealed for what they really are: tasty, tasty XP.

[Yodimus]

How long before Stanley and Wanda realize that a decrypted Parson would save them 1,000 Schmuckers per turn?

Just popping by and point out how frighteningly reasonable that would sound to Stanley.

[Sarcose]

Just popping by and point out how frighteningly reasonable that would sound to Stanley.

Rather than coming up with reasons for why it wouldn't work, maybe we should speculate that this will be a major plot justification for Book Two.

[ishnar]

Someone recently pointed out that we have word of god that this is NOT a game, it is a universe based on a game. So there is no attempt to make everything balanced.

Someone might just have the "Ark of the Covenant" and have an "I Win" button, provided they keep their ducks in a row.

We don't know what these tools are for. Are they meant to be a point of contention? Or are they there to give warring factions a reason to band together to fix some machine somewhere that can only be fixed by said tools?

So don't get too hung up on balance. They might be balanced, but there is not necessarily a need for them to be balanced. The Israel had the Ark, and yet they never took over the world. So there is more to winning than having an unbalanced artifact.

[Sarcose]

Someone recently pointed out that we have word of god that this is NOT a game, it is a universe based on a game. So there is no attempt to make everything balanced.

Someone might just have the "Ark of the Covenant" and have an "I Win" button, provided they keep their ducks in a row.

We don't know what these tools are for. Are they meant to be a point of contention? Or are they there to give warring factions a reason to band together to fix some machine somewhere that can only be fixed by said tools?

So don't get too hung up on balance. They might be balanced, but there is not necessarily a need for them to be balanced. The Israel had the Ark, and yet they never took over the world. So there is more to winning than having an unbalanced artifact.

Mm. It's very hard imagining this story as specifically a story and not a game, especially when there are so many game-like aspects of it. Particularly because a certain subset of fans (including me) are hungrily devouring every new bit of information regarding the system in the hopes of someday playing the game Erfworld is based on.

[Devoured_Dude]

Rather than coming up with reasons for why it wouldn't work, maybe we should speculate that this will be a major plot justification for Book Two.

Yes. I almost put my original post as a spoiler for that very reason.

[BLANDCorporatio]

..And then; weak units. First, I am seeing the implication that trolling around for poorly-defended, neutral aligned towns will result in a lot of defended poorly-defended towns, rather than just taking what's left of the town and bringing it back with you to add to the sum of your force, and leaving the town itself undefended so those units don't sap your upkeep. ... tasty, tasty XP.

That's a good point, but I have developped a little my "village of the damned" idea.

It appears, as we see in the first strip, that you need units to dig for schmuckers. Probably, you need units as builders etc.

We also know that the typical outcome of winning a siege is to croak/disband any units from that city. So, if you, the conqueror, were to try and restore production in it you'd need to bring your own units and leave them there.

The Pliers will spare you of this effort, and allow you to restore production almost instantly to its prior levels. This can, and in the hands of a capable overlord will, result in a rapid economic growth.

All your strategies require either a suposed fear of the dirtamancy trap, a decent amount of barbarians easily findable or that you can decrypt in a hex that has your enemy in it.

Apart from the last one, those are reasonable assumptions. Many turn-based strategy games (which Erfworld was created to resemble, after all) have plenty of neutral units just sitting on the map waiting to be slaughtered for XP. As for the fear of the dirtamancy trap, c'mon. Stanley essentially unleashed a nuke in Erfworld, that would give everyone pause.

So to take a large hex gobwin knob needs to throw everything it has at it and then decrypt everything and hope killed decrypted can be raised again.

Nitpick: GK, originally, did not have a too shabby force itself. Thousands of goblins, some KISS, golems of all sorts etc. Charlie asked- how many archons it takes to destroy it. 14, as I remember, was not quite enough, but apparently not too far off either. Now, GK has those archons, plus dwagons. Therefore, I'd say that GK is in the position to attack even well-defended cities. Capitals, maybe not yet, but what they will kill at their first city they will raise again.

All the while keeping the golems, gobwins and marbits back to mine the schmuckers.

No, it doesn't need to throw everything.

Right. So you're assuming that Gobwin Knob will win every battle they fight from now on. Your argument basically hinges off this. So if they are unable to win every battle (because, for instance, they're only decrypting bloody marbits) the pliers will be basically useless? ...

Disallowing multiple decrypts of a single unit is one suggestion I and others have put forth, and it doesn't feel like "rushed-balance" to me. It's not something that could be shown yet, is it? There have been other suggestions. You have made no effort to comment on these. You seem to mistake not acting on information we do not yet have with assuming it doesn't exist.
...

With that I will agree. But failing to attack Stanley does not mean Stanley can easily conquer all of them. These are powerful sides, their capitals are likely to be heavily defended, especially if they chose not to go back on the offensive.

I'll reply to those more in bulk rather than split the post, if you don't mind.

Right now, Stanley is in the relatively safe position of having a few turns of guaranteed peace. How strong the guarantee is debateable, but we seem to agree nobody is going to attack yet. Therefore, he has time for development.

Now, as to what exactly he will be able to do, I had a couple of suggestions and then some. None of which really hinge on decrypted units being able to be re-decrypted. All that matters is that they are more powerful than simple uncroaked, more threatening targets as a result, very easy to mass-produce if you have the corpses, as the latest strip shows.

None of my suggestions hinges on GK winning every battle either. All it needs to do is croak something of the enemy's which I am sure is a possible goal. Plus, armed with his mathmancy bracer, Parson can calculate which battles are the most important to send Wanda to (again, remember that mention of the Mathmancy/Luckamancy combo; now it's Mathmancy/ArkenPliers). Finally, GK can, by using decryption, obtain an army of workers to restore production quickly in conquered cities- and it is my contention that it is able to take cities now with a fraction of its forces. In so doing, GK can grow very fast economically. At the very least, for a few turns, until the other sides discover the dynamite belt.

What my ideas hinge on is that GK will use its resources RUTHLESSLY. Which is bound not to sit well with a few people on their side.

[Lamech]

@BLANDCorporatio: How quick would you attempt this? Immediatly sounds like a bad idea. Air and ground defenses need to be reloaded, and the structures rebuilt; with a viel Stanley can hide for a long time. I would suggest waiting and then striking. I would also like to point out that others in the world will see a powerful weapon for what it is. A unified attack force will probably destroy GK; especially right now. The RCC didn't throw everything they had at GK, and they were not the whole world. I think it would be very wise to misrepresent the power of the pliers. For example, after coming out of hiding make sure you have some "corspes" in the "quene".

Did that make any sense?

[BLANDCorporatio]

@BLANDCorporatio: How quick would you attempt this? Immediatly sounds like a bad idea. Air and ground defenses need to be reloaded, and the structures rebuilt; with a viel Stanley can hide for a long time. I would suggest waiting and then striking. I would also like to point out that others in the world will see a powerful weapon for what it is. A unified attack force will probably destroy GK; especially right now. The RCC didn't throw everything they had at GK, and they were not the whole world. I think it would be very wise to misrepresent the power of the pliers. For example, after coming out of hiding make sure you have some "corspes" in the "quene".

Did that make any sense?

I will venture a "no". Bear with me.

What the former RCC members know is that they have sent a vast army to defeat Stanley. Not only did that fail, it failed utterly by getting all their units croaked. It is unlikely, if their leaders have any sense, that they will try to do this again any time soon.

Based on this I conclude that Stanley will have several turns of respite in which to redevelop GK. I think this is not controversial.

Further (and here just about everyone disagrees, but hey) I say that Stanley is in a position to grow his armies not only on what the restored GK will produce, but also on whatever neutrals/barbarians are around.

Yet more (with yet more disagreement, but that doesn't stop me), I say that Stanley is actually able to knock out cities from neighbouring sides. Not all of them can be strong, he has the army to take a city, and with the pliers he will restore the cities he conquers quickly. Thus becoming able to take out capitals too.

In conclusion, turtling is a wasted opportunity right now. Strike while the lava is still hot, you know.

There'll probably be a coalition against him again, eventually anyway. But by then it will be too late.

[Kilkrazy]

I would not leave GK itself lightly defended while Jillian and Vinnie are a potential threat.

[MickJay]

I'm still saying that Parson will likely end up fighting the power he created, one way or another. What kind of a plot would it be if he simply commanded a huge army of super uncroaked, aided by power of 2 artifacts, against forces that just had been dealt a major blow?

Anyway, does anyone else sense the conflict for Arkenpliers brewing? Will Stanley allow Wanda to keep them, or will he try to take them for himself, as he originally intended? If that happened, Wanda could just move out with her army to Faq (or anywhere else), and then Parson would likely end up fighting her.

[BLANDCorporatio]

I would not leave GK itself lightly defended while Jillian and Vinnie are a potential threat.

You don't have to. There are wiener rammers, cloth golems, rock golems, dwagons, archons, gobwins, KISS, marbits, erfs of various sorts, spidews maybe ...

Not to mention the casters, and Conan Gotti too.

(EDIT: oh, yeah, also a level 10 Warlord)

Make a pick. Surely you can assemble a more than-decent attack force while keeping GK safe.

Turtling is wrong for GK, their cards have "offensive" written all over them. It only takes the will to do so.

I'm still saying that Parson will likely end up fighting the power he created, one way or another. What kind of a plot would it be if he simply commanded a huge army of super uncroaked, aided by power of 2 artifacts, against forces that just had been dealt a major blow?

Phew, finally something I can agree to unconditionally! Thank you.

[Bogardan_Mage]

Now, as to what exactly he will be able to do, I had a couple of suggestions and then some. None of which really hinge on decrypted units being able to be re-decrypted. All that matters is that they are more powerful than simple uncroaked, more threatening targets as a result, very easy to mass-produce if you have the corpses, as the latest strip shows.

But you must admit being unable to redecrypt them will be a significant impediment. All your "march in with impunity" scenarios become "carefully weigh the odds and see if we come out on top" scenarios.

None of my suggestions hinges on GK winning every battle either. All it needs to do is croak something of the enemy's which I am sure is a possible goal.

Well that's what I thought initially, and I tried arguing under that assumption. If you lose the battle, Wanda becomes a target. And when I tried to point this out before you just assumed they'd win the battle! Which is it to be?

Finally, GK can, by using decryption, obtain an army of workers to restore production quickly in conquered cities- and it is my contention that it is able to take cities now with a fraction of its forces. In so doing, GK can grow very fast economically. At the very least, for a few turns, until the other sides discover the dynamite belt.

But they've got all those gems. Money isn't a problem any more. So this isn't really relevant.

What my ideas hinge on is that GK will use its resources RUTHLESSLY. Which is bound not to sit well with a few people on their side.

Then the problem is...

[BLANDCorporatio]

But you must admit being unable to redecrypt them will be a significant impediment. All your "march in with impunity" scenarios become "carefully weigh the odds and see if we come out on top" scenarios.

Well that's what I thought initially, and I tried arguing under that assumption. If you lose the battle, Wanda becomes a target. And when I tried to point this out before you just assumed they'd win the battle! Which is it to be?

But they've got all those gems. Money isn't a problem any more. So this isn't really relevant.

"March with impunity" refers to Wanda, who can fly in, decrypt, fly out, while the battle is in progress. Since she won't attack on her turn, she is not subject to fire from opponents out-of-turn. I added the "picking the fight" thing because as it has been pointed out there's only one Wanda. Regardless, Parson could see where she'll be most useful.

Even if decryption wouldn't work on disputed hexes, there will be areas where GK will be able to kill everything on its start-of-turn attacks and that supposed limitation (we don't know anything either way, really) would not apply. We have seen Wanda uncroak after the golems killed in the tunnels, so the basic idea of this should work.

As for the money issue, one city at full production capacity is still less than a city and a village, each at full production capacity. The issue is not whether Stanley will have lots of money, the issue is whether Stanley will have so much money it becomes worhtless, as well as several, rapidly growing, villages/cities to pop units from. This surely must be quite a lot more relevant than you give it credit.

As for the problem, like many a time, is will and stomach. Which is what I've said for ages now, that I expect a split in the GK side.

[Matuse]

To everyone who keeps mentioning Misty...can't happen.

Misty died a turn or two previously. Her body is gone. Poof. No decrypt.

[ComradeTaro]

I find I agree with Dr. Stwangelove above more than those who argue against a highly aggressive strategy with the Arkenpliers. Just like tactics in this game, strategic advantage is gained multiplicatively, not additively, and GK has the Arkenpliers, the Arkenhammer, Parson for strategic planning, and Ansom as the point of the spear. It's a very potent combination, and I feel that the neighboring nations are going to learn a new term: blitzkrieg.

The first thing to remember is that the simple, obvious short term strategy of building defenses behind a veil is wrong. As Parson said when teaching Wanda and Sizemore about strategy, their goal is not to 'hold' GK but to render the enemy incapable or unwilling to take GK. The RCC has just suffered a shocking loss, losing all units committed to the war in one turn against a badly outnumbered opponent that was on the ropes. They don't know much about what happened. They are rattled, uncertain, and divided - witness the dissolution of the RCC.

When the enemy is on their heels you have to strike with the knife - when they are down you must kick them. Parson should look at the most weakened members of the RCC and pick one to be the next shock to his neighbors. Have Ansom lead a stack of dwagons, archons, and anything else fast and strong, with Wanda along for the ride. Just pile them into one immense stack o' doom, and leave everything slower at GK for local defense. Rampage through as much real estate as you can, decrypting whatever you kill as garrison units, while popping units as fast as you can in your new cities. He should be able to flatten one country in a tearing hurry; remember that GK was the finest defensive location, and his targets aren't.

After you've delivered two more shocks (Ansom as a GK warlord, and the quick flattening of a neighbor) Parson has a lot more latitude for diplomacy. It is better to be feared than loved, if you must choose, and assuming the Tool is willing to roll with Parson's program they've got a great hand. They can claim they're only after the Arkentools and offer alliance with select countries against their neighbors. Who wouldn't accept that offer from the side that defended Gk against impossible odds and then demonstrated a similar mastery of offense - and has two of the legendary Arkentools?

[Kilkrazy]

Scarlet, however, should be capable of being decrypted. Which will make a lot of readers

[Fuzzy_Juan]

I agree about the massive counterassault to force their enemies into a fearful defensive position. At the same time, veiling GK into looking as it did before the battle while they rebuild would also be wise. Then the shock of their final victory will be overwhelming to any who don't see through the veil...not only did they win and turn everyone to their side, not only did they send newly turned troops to ravage coalition cities...but they were completely unscathed.

From the majority of scouts the coalition parties would only see the veil and crap themselves, only special units like the archons would be capable of noticing the ruse.

I am thinking that the remaining battle calculations owed to charlie will be used by those who oppose GK. They will likely be the focus of a story ark or two.

Spoiler

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I am thinking the next general to oppose him will be needing to attack a certian site but need troops to come off of it...they'll ask charlie to spend a calculation to 'prove' that their stated force will be capable of taking a different force. Parson will send troops from the real objective to the other location thinking that he will be catching them in a trap since charlie wouldn't waste a calculation unless they were going to come...only, that is the ruse. It will be fun to see if he can anticipate that, or if he will be suckered. With misty out they can't reconstitute their supreme table and will have to get intelligence another way...wonder how long they'll wait before tryign to find another lookamancer.

[MadScientistMat]

I wasn't referring to uncroaking the volcano, as much as Bogroll pretending to be Parson. Sure, it wouldn't have been obvious they were planning such a thing if Parson and Bogroll were the only two wearing such uniforms. But it's a lot less obvious if it looks like it's a standard uniform.

[Raguzert]

Good strip. Funny how the big question is being obviously ignored, wanda seems to "like" the arkenpliers. While stanley is in a quest for all the arkentools... i doubt wanda will just give it, so i'm just waiting to see who parson will side with (my hope goes that he sides with stanley, along with everyone not decrypted yet)

[BLANDCorporatio]

Scarlet, however, should be capable of being decrypted. Which will make a lot of readers

Quite so, quite so. Hopefully she'll remember her name-tag too.

Spoiler

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The Pliers fought that conversion every step of the way. Not to mention the line art. Urgh.

Scarlett from Erfworld of course; so is the axe (dug it out a previous strip). Flaming skull from pycomall.com.

... Dr. Stwangelove above ...

Heh, I am almost considering changin my name, nice!

[Bogardan_Mage]

"March with impunity" refers to Wanda, who can fly in, decrypt, fly out, while the battle is in progress. Since she won't attack on her turn, she is not subject to fire from opponents out-of-turn. I added the "picking the fight" thing because as it has been pointed out there's only one Wanda. Regardless, Parson could see where she'll be most useful.

She is subject to fire. She enters their hex, they can attack. Of course, they have to break the veil first, but if she's going to every battle to decrypt she's going to get unlucky eventually and then it's all over.

Even if decryption wouldn't work on disputed hexes, there will be areas where GK will be able to kill everything on its start-of-turn attacks and that supposed limitation (we don't know anything either way, really) would not apply. We have seen Wanda uncroak after the golems killed in the tunnels, so the basic idea of this should work.

There will, but they won't make enough difference for the pliers to be overpowered. They'll be weak units, and they'll be uncommon.

As for the money issue, one city at full production capacity is still less than a city and a village, each at full production capacity. The issue is not whether Stanley will have lots of money, the issue is whether Stanley will have so much money it becomes worhtless, as well as several, rapidly growing, villages/cities to pop units from. This surely must be quite a lot more relevant than you give it credit.

What I'm saying is that they already hinted at this. No longer will money be an issue for Stanley, they're probably the richest side in Erfworld according to Sizemore. Using the pliers to make money may be useful, but it's not really a revelation. From a narrative point of view, they basically told us to forget about costs. It doesn't really matter why.

As for the problem, like many a time, is will and stomach. Which is what I've said for ages now, that I expect a split in the GK side.

I don't think splitting is as easy as you think it is. I think dissent in Gobwin Knob will result in your brilliant cheese not being used, rather than the side splitting into a side that will use it and one that won't.

[Wolfwood2]

Good strip. Funny how the big question is being obviously ignored, wanda seems to "like" the arkenpliers. While stanley is in a quest for all the arkentools... i doubt wanda will just give it, so i'm just waiting to see who parson will side with (my hope goes that he sides with stanley, along with everyone not decrypted yet)

Stanley might consider that having one of his subordinate using the arkenpliers is essentially owning them himself. Everything an Overlord's side has is his.

[Dark Matter]

All this talk of Veiling Wanda is pointless.

1) You can move on your turn, other people CAN'T because their move drops to zero when they end turn.
2) Dragons can carry people and have large movement (btw they're currently short on dragons... they have two... hopefully they'll pop more).
3) You send in a powerful force & croak everyone.
4) After that, and only after that, you have Wanda fly from homebase to uncroak everyone... and then fly her back.

5) Ergo she's never exposed. She's never subject to attack. No risk.

And note she already did something very similar with Manpower the Temporary. He died, she flew over and uncroaked him, then she flew back and argued with Tool.

RE: Parson being Decrypted
I don't think it'd work. He's not really a unit, no one can see his stats.

[Matuse]

Just to be nitpicky, but they have at least 3 dragons right now. Jack and Stanley are each riding one, and the one that popped at GK. Then, maybe there's a knight or two who survived Stanley's trip to FAQ (I don't think so, but it's possible).

[Bookkeeper@Arms]

A notion occurs to me ...

Parson's 3D specs. His Warlord's Sword. His Mathamancy bracer. Where did they come from?!

Are we to assume that the Cosmic Forces of Erfworld simply slipped them into his morning Stupid Meal just to rectify some imbalance? If that were the case, why aren't there more artifacts (the bracer has been classed as an artifact) running around?

In fact, why is Parson's food customized for him to resemble Earth food? Even Code Red Mountain Dew?

Theory #1: The Titans Did It. Decrypted Ansom is right, and Parson is a true Tool of the Titans, to be used to rebuild Erfworld.

Theory #2: The Magic Kingdom Did It. They crafted the Summon Perfect Warlord spell; they were willing to sever the Wanda/Maggie/Sizemore link with maximum expensive help free of charge; and there is the Grand Abbie's cryptic statement about Parson breaking Erfworld. The Magic Kingdom set up the whole Perfect Warlord scam in order to bring peace to the world without getting directly involved. So they use their magic to slip useful things to him in his food, including luck.

Theory #3: Parson Did It. Unbeknownst to himself, he is a Titan, or has access to the operating systems of Erfworld. He is subconsciously affecting reality around him. Which is why everything is familiar to him, why his food is familiar, and why odd circumstances seem to help him. As his understanding grows, fewer of Erfworld's natural laws will affect him. Eventually, he'll be able to write new one, or edit the existing ones.

No matter how one looks at it, I don't think Parson's slated for obscurity on Erfworld.

[Bookkeeper@Arms]

Another notion ...

Where did Wanda get all those corpses to decrypt? It was stated clearly in Parson's Klog that corpses vanish at the beginning of a turn. Did those corpses stay around because they were buried? So Misty the Thinkamancer could be decrypted.

So what will that do for Erfworld in general? Eventually some smart Croakamancer's going to devise a simple-to-use variant of Decrypting that doesn't require an Artifact (but it would probably work on only one unit at a time and be expensive). Would that mean that Erfworlders would start burying their dead in hope of a glorious decrypting and repopping?

[Frogpop]

So Misty the Thinkamancer could be decrypted.

Lookamancer m'lord.

[teratorn]

Just to be nitpicky, but they have at least 3 dragons right now. Jack and Stanley are each riding one, and the one that popped at GK. Then, maybe there's a knight or two who survived Stanley's trip to FAQ (I don't think so, but it's possible).

You call that nitpicky? Stanley has 6 dwagons with him, plus the foolamancer and one knight. So GK now has 7 dwagons, plus at least three archons. Put Ansom on one of those dwagons and with his bonus that airforce should be pretty strong.

About the corpses, they should disappear at the onset of RCC's next turn, that is after GK's actual turn (the archons had already allied with RCC). It makes sense that they would last for a turn even after RCC is dissolved.