The Age of the Warriors - a ToB expansion book idea

[elliott20]

We're really starting to see a LOT of homebrew ToB disciplines on this board. With this many extra homebrews out there, it's almost like we're not talking about the "fabled 10th discipline" but rather the disciplines less well known.

That is, the way I see it, it almost feels like if we could fluff this all as saying the 9 original ToB disciplines are the ones that achieved major popularity because of Reshar's personal influence and his ability to push these out to the greater public, while the other extra disciplines are more like alternate schools that just never got the same recognition that Reshar's chosen schools got.

And so I had an idea here (finally he gets to the point), what if we were to put together a netbook that catalogs all of the homebrew disciplines and in addition to just holding them there, we create additional relationships between each discipline and tie them in with the original 9 somehow?

what I mean is that when you look at most real life martial arts, a lot of them you can usually trace their lineage and influences to other schools. (and for those that are less well documented, it can often become a source of controversy)

What if we tried to do the same with the homebrews and the original 9? i.e. Chthonic Serpent that DragoonWraith wrote up had established another master alongside of Reshar, stemming from a clear divergence in philosophy, and also sort of establishes chronological order in terms of when it came into prominence. (or rather, when it was finally established as an actual school)

This could also be used as a means to collect some homebrew ToB discipline design conventions so new homebrewers can use it as a guideline as to how to make their own new school.

What do you guys think?

[DracoDei]

Working in Falling Anvil(see my signature) would be tricky, but I am willing to give it a shot...

[DragoonWraith]

I'd also be willing to work with Chthonic Binding in this. I already have a bit of relations between Reshar and the Discipline, but it could be fleshed out more, and of course there could be the other schools to consider.

[elliott20]

dude, if I can get falling anvil in there and make it work, that alone will make the project worth it.

we'll have to establish a couple things first:

1. create a list of the homebrews that we're going to include
2. establish a canonical timeline
3. establish how the homebrews fit into the canonical timeline
4. dress up the details so they can be ported into the game with minimal fuss.

#1 is going to just take some good ol' fashion board scouring. I know that demented one and Fax has also made a bunch of homebrew disciplines too and I'll be picking their brains later.

#2 will take a lot of umm... creative licensing since I don't think the ToB book actually talked a great deal about Reshar and the exact chronological events that transpired. But here is what I see as the major time periods/events:

Time before the Nine
Rise of Reshar
Establishment of the Temple
The Era of Reshar
Reshar's retirement
The Destruction of the Temple

we'll talk about each one in detail later

#3 once we've established the above timeline and can agree on some of the details, we can fit the homebrews in.

I think though, the fact that the homebrews did not make it into the major 9 implies the following:

- Reshar did not master it, and therefore did not bring it into prominence.
- The discipline in question did not see prominence like that of the original 9. While ANOTHER master could bring it into prominence, I think it's safe to say that the original 9 were the mainstream schools, with the other 9 being more niche and less well known.
- Reshar, who was able to bring his 9 schools and temple into such recognition, was probably a PR and marketing genius of his time.
- Was Reshar the first master of the nine?

#4 more details for the homebrews

once we figure out HOW the homebrews fit into the timeline, we would have to establish some masters of the discipline and some more background details regarding.

So basically, we'll need
- the master who established the discipline
- how it came about
- where it was located
- when it was in it's formation stage
- when it was completed
- notable users of the discipline

note: we also need to make a distinction between the disciplines here and schools that are derivative of the disciplines. That is, there is a difference between someone who actually establishes a discipline of his own, and someone who simply combined two different disciplines and calls it a new school. Think of the latter as an MMA fighter who picks up some jiu-jitsu and some muay thai, and then creates a new school under a new name.

[Mongoose87]

You thinking new base classes, too, trained in different ways from the Warblade, Crusader and Swordsage?

[elliott20]

Post reserved for discipline list

here I'm going to list all the disciplines that I am aware of. It will be a growing list and if anyone sees one that I missed (which will be very likely) please let me know and I'll add it to the list

Disciplines

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Gentle Breeze - Closet Skeleton
the Placid Lake Discipline
Far Realm - Jack Mann
Ninefold Damnation - PairO' Dice
Infinite Torment: - PairO' Dice
Ocean Tempest: - PairO' Dice

Lesser Discipline By I_got_this_name
Falling Wave
Glacial Chill
Leaping Gale
Rending Scream
Silver Pegasus
True Arrow
Viper Fang

Black Rain - Demented One
Coin's Edge - Demented One
Dread Crown - Demented One
Golden Saint - Demented One
Scarlet Bravura - Demented One
Falling Anvil - DracoDei
Chthonic Serpent - DragoonWraith
Falling Star - Fax
Kaleidoscopic Dream - Demeont One
Fool's Grip - Demented One
Way of the Gear - Imp_Fireball
Solaris Arcanum - Golden-Esque
Scarlet Rose - Nero24200
Black Lotus - Zakaroth
Broken Blade - JoshuaZ
Narrow Bridge - JoshuaZ
[http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...112720]Untamed Essencep[/url] - Vox Clamantis
Holy Word Discipline - Fax Celestis
Ocean Soul - Fax Celestis
The Discipline of the Lost Lyrics - Kellus
Frozen Zephyr/Acidic Fog/Shocking Sky disciplines - Krimm Blackleaf (Desert Wind Variant)
Army of One - The demented one
Dancing Leaf - The demented one
Oncoming Storm - The demented one
Sleeping Goddess - The demented one
Twin Spirit - demented one
black heron - errantx
Quicksilver Aegis - Krimm
Witch Razor - pyrefiend

PrCs

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Assassin
Incarnate Knight - vasharanpaladin
Heartshaper and the Bladed Thoughts Discipline -
Guardian of the Frozen Grotto and the Placid Lake Discipline -
Moonflame Adept -
Kazarzeth - Errantx
Ecclesiastic Knight - Errantx
The Master of One - Errantx
True Master of Nine - DracoDei
Bladesinger Redux - Errantx
Shadow Knight - Duke Malagigi
Suel Arcanamach = errantx
Another Master of One - PairO'Dice
Blade Operant - Demented One
Braveheart Bravo - Demented One
Dreaming Lotus Assassin - Demented One
Ebon Raven General - Demented One
Enlightened Budoka - Demented One
Errant Blademaster - Demented One
Leviathan-Born - Demented One
Madspawn Broodling - Demented One
Nightmare Reaver - Demented One
Oracle Knight - Demented One
Savage Savant - Demented One
Silent Demon = Demented One
Spellfire Banisher - Demented One
Sublime Warrior - Demented One
Thousand-Arrow Archer - Demented One
Whirlwind Heir - Demented One

The following are by Krimm
Aberrant Armorlord
Al-shra'a Al-mharb
Angel of Death
Blade Incarnate
Blade Maiden
Blood Sage
Combat Artisan
Concealed Celestial
Crusader of Death
Demonspawn Harbinger
Doom Lord
Draconic Partisan
Eaglewing Striker
Ebon Phoenix Mage
Eldritch Blademaster
Eldritch Knight (Redux)
Harmonic Lance Adept
Hollowed Soul
Holy Deathless One
Huixxa Vo Nyarlathotep
Iron Slasher
Ironsword Speaker
Masked Demon
Occult Adversary
Prestige Paladin (Redux)
Prodigal Overlord
Sacred Fist (Redux)
Saurian Brute
Shrouded Ambusher
Soul Eater (Redux)
Soulfire Invoker
Spirit Archer
Spirit Craftsman
Spirit Lords (Champion, Skirmisher and Spellmaster)
Sword of Levakross
Unmasked Fiend
Unseelie Knight
Unveiled Dragon
Warforged Armorlord
Warped Angel
Weretouched Master (Redux)
Zealot of Salamander
Holy Knight - DragoonWraith

Base Class

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Blademaster - T.G. Oskar
Martial Warrior - Imp-Fireball
Soul Disciple - Demented One
Warlord - Demented One
Warrior-Poet - Demented One
Marshal
Swashbuckler
Firedancer - Tatsel Ganav
Warmage - Golden-Esque
Martial Soul - PairO'Dice
Sohei Adept - Shyftir

variants
Alternate AFC b T.G. Oskar
monk of the sublime way - pax chi
Martial Adept Fighter - dangerprawn
Crusader, Swordsage, Warblade, Epic progression - Krimm
ToB Core Class Update. - Fax_Celestis
Alternate Stance Progression Table

Items
Warheart Weapons: Sublime counterparts to magic weapons.

Artifacts
Basatan's Arm - Krimm

Monsters
Demented One
Aay-y'y: Chaotic warriors of amazing power and skill who roam Limbo.
Grave Trooper: Undead soldiers who know how to fight.
Jiang Shi: Kung fu vampires, basically.
Martial Automaton: Programmable martial constructs.
Krimm
Shayal
Varkigon (scroll down a bit)
Dorokusai - Saintheart
Cold Iron Dragon -

Feats
The following are by Krimm
Epic Martial Adept Feats
More Epic Martial Adept Feats
Martial Multiclass Feats
9 Epic Martial Discipline Feats

[elliott20]

You thinking new base classes, too, trained in different ways from the Warblade, Crusader and Swordsage?

That is also an option. While we're at it, we can also include core variants initiators as well. Basically, in my mind, I envision this book to have enough material that if a GM wants to, they can do an entire campaign based on the material in the book.

[DragoonWraith]

That is also an option. While we're at it, we can also include core variants initiators as well. Basically, in my mind, I envision this book to have enough material that if a GM wants to, they can do an entire campaign based on the material in the book.

Heh, as it turns out, I'm working on a Sublime Bard at this very moment.

[elliott20]

Heh, as it turns out, I'm working on a Sublime Bard at this very moment.

sweet, I really should make another post outlining things I want to see.

[elliott20]

organization of the book (as I see it thus far, criticisms welcome)

1. The canonical ToB time line and material

establishes the source material and tries to give more theories as to what constitutes the canonical ToB time line as well as give more info about Reshar and the environment he lived in.

2. class variants

here we list the sublime way variants out there. I'll need help with the list since I can't seem to turn up a definitive list anywhere.

I think we might want to be more scrutinizing about what variants we use though, since I think I've seen at least 3 different sublime fighter variants and I recall not liking all of them. optimally, I think we want to use variants that are really just that, variants with minimal changes. the variants that makes a LOT of changes I would recommend they go under the next section.

3. more base classes

these are base classes designed entirely from the ground up to fit into the ToB model. A large number of the variants, in my opinion, really should fall under here simply because of how drastically different they are from their source materials.

4. the homebrew disciplines

Like I said earlier, these will be where we catalog the disciplines, give some info about them, and fit them into the canon. Here is where we establish our new "canon" for the ToB-verse. (maybe that's the name we should adopt?)

5. homebrew discipline maneuver list

just like in ToB, a section that outlines the disciplines maneuvers in short hand, with the next section giving more details on the maneuvers.

6. maneuver description

7. setting info

here we talk about the actual setting of the ToB-verse, giving more specific location settings, areas, and maybe even an adventure seed table or two.

this is also where we list the notable characters of the ToB-verse from the various disciplines. (further establishing relationships with the various ToB disciplines)

8. new monsters

I'm not sure if we'll get to this, but I'm sure that some of you have done ToB homebrew monsters. We can list them here. here we can also talk about how to adapt old MM monsters into ToB ready materials.

[DracoDei]

Check the sticky thread at the top of the homebrew thread list page for a link to the attempt at an index then look for disciplines...

For one thing I think there are TWO different disciplines named "Falling Star" that have been created on these boards.


Also, if you read the fluff for Falling Anvil, it is possible that instead of being something you necessarily have to learn from a teacher, it is a mental illness that those who study the Sublime Way are especially prone to and get much more severe cases of (since a non-initiator can only learn 3 maneuvers and 1 Stance via feats). Thus it could have existed almost as long as the first other discipline ever to have a few hundred or thousand practioners and had no one single inventor/creator or even specific chain of inventors, each of whom advance the art further.

[Golden-Esque]

If you want to add Solaris Arcanum, you'd be more then welcomed :).

I use a similar method in my campaigns to what you described; each Discipline has its own history and background, and one man tried to unite as many of them as he could, but ultimately failed because many disciplines cross racial tension lands and other such issues.

Eliot, if you look at Demented One's list of Homebrew, he's made a LOT of them.

[elliott20]

Check the sticky thread at the top of the page for a link to the attempt at an index then look for disciplines...

For one thing I think there are TWO different disciplines named "Falling Star" that have been created on these boards.


Also, if you read the fluff for Falling Anvil, it is possible that instead of being something you necessarily have to learn from a teacher, it is a mental illness that those who study the Sublime Way are especially prone to and get much more severe cases of (since a non-initiator can only learn 3 maneuvers and 1 Stance via feats). Thus it could have existed almost as long as the first other discipline ever to have a few hundred or thousand practioners and had no one single inventor/creator or even specific chain of inventors, each of whom advance the art further.

yeah, I'm aware of that. That's why I'm saying that it might not have come into prominence or wide recognition as an actual, respected discipline the way the original 9 were. It is entirely possible for a lot of the homebrew disciplines to have co-existed along side the original 9 or even long before it, and just not recognized because no one ever bother pushing together into a single system.

thanks for reminding me about that thread. I'm combing it now for more disciplines to look for.

[DracoDei]

I was referring to the fact that you didn't seem sure that you could work it in... also, I need to decide on which home-brew disciplines it is incompatible with, because I only list the ToB ones that it edges out when you take the first maneuver of it. Scarlet Bravura, for instance, may be


As for PrCs, I made the True Master of Nine, and someone made a Master of One. There was also a single discipline Base class (or maybe it got access to a second discipline around 10th level... yeah, I think it did). Note that I am pretty stuck on the legacy weapons, and a few of the listed maneuvers are unfinished... and I still need to add banana peel based maneuvers one of these days.

[elliott20]

yeah, one of the things I think we're going to have problem with is what exactly should we include.

not all of the disciplines are finished and let's face it, not all of it really meshes well together. (A large number of them may very well be duplicates of one another)

I think one of the criterion we use for taking a piece of work is that we have to make sure that it has the following:

1. proper formatting: I know this is a silly thing to use as a criteria, but considering the amount of material we're talking about assimilating, it would take considerable effort to as is to make sure all the formatting syncs up. To have to do this for write ups without any formatting would make this a nightmare

2. is finished or will be finished. a lot of projects I see seem to get abandoned or at least not get the updated version posted. I don't mind if a product is not fine tuned, but it needs to be at least finished.

[EdroGrimshell]

I have a few under my favorites
Army of One (The demented one)
Dancing Leaf (The demented one)
Oncoming Storm (The demented one)
Sleeping Godess (The demented one)
and The Broken Blade (JoshuaZ)

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5710173
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85614
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54816
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5408276
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=122533

[elliott20]

okay added.

it just occurred to me that I really should link these... oh well... later.

[Fortuna]

Wow. This much material would basically allow someone to run a game with initiators without ever buying the tome of battle. Thank you all very much!

[elliott20]

keep in mind, the intend is not to reprint the entirety of ToB in a single place, but rather add more/organize material to supplement it. So, in theory you could run a game without buying ToB, you would just won't be able to do anything with the original 9 disciplines in them. (kind of like, the shadows of the ToB-verse type of deal)

The core concept is that you could, with this book and the ToB book, run an entirely initiator based campaign.

[ErrantX]

You missed another one of mine, a remake of the Suel Arcanamach which adds maneuvers as well as streamlines the various abilities of the class/makes it actually have a hope and a prayer of accomplishing what the fluff suggests it does.

Otherwise, I dig what you're doing here. I'll see if I can contribute more to this.

-X

[The Demented One]

We're really starting to see a LOT of homebrew ToB disciplines on this board. With this many extra homebrews out there, it's almost like we're not talking about the "fabled 10th discipline" but rather the disciplines less well known.

Um. Starting? Krimm and I did most of this stuff years ago. But that said, most of the stuff I've done is already fluffed to fit in with something like this. Lemme give you links.

Disciplines
Army of One: Take on legions, and win.
Black Rain: Gun fu. Need I say more?
Coin's Edge: A supernatural style that draws on fate and luck.
Dancing Leaf: Dodge everything.
Dread Crown: Vile martial arts inspired by demon princes and archdevils.
Fool's Grip: The art of whatever happens to be at hand.
Golden Saint: Angelic martial arts.
Kaleidoscopic Dream: Chaotic, reality-warping martial arts.
Oncoming Storm: The noble arts of iajutsu and bladesmanship bastardized for street-fighting and assassination.
Scarlet Bravura: WHO THE HELL DO YOU THINK I AM?
Sleeping Goddess: Kill people with your brain.
Twin Spirit: Martial arts for cavalry.

Base Classes
Soul Disciple: Incarnum-wielding martial artist that channel the souls of past masters.
Warlord: Masters of tactics and strategy.
Warrior-Poet: Sublime swashbucklers who use both martial prowess and witty banter.

Prestige Classes
Blade Operant: Secret agents with powerful martial techniques implanted in their subconscious minds.
Braveheart Bravo: God damn halflings who're god damn good at killing people.
Dreaming Lotus Assassin: Members of a cabal of spies and assassins that surely doesn't exist.
Ebon Raven General: Commandos specializing in stealth and group tactics.
Enlightened Budoka: Warrior-monks that turn their foes' strength against them.
Errant Blademaster: Self-trained martial adepts.
Leviathan-Born: Darfellan scions of the oceanic god of death, who fight without regard for their own lives.
Madspawn Broodling: Willing hosts to aberrant symbiotes, masters of using living weaponry.
Nightmare Reaver: Soulknives who have honed their martial skills to perfection.
Oracle Knight: Prescient martial adepts that rely on second sight to win their battles.
Savage Savant: Atavistic martial adepts that channel their bestial psyche to achieve feats of bloody brutality.
Silent Demon: Exercises in calm, calculating, restrained brutality.
Spellfire Banisher: Sublime mage-slayers.
Sublime Warrior: Prodigies who have re-invented martial disciplines.
Thousand-Arrow Archer: Sublime marksman.
Whirlwind Heir: Samurai masters of the quick-draw.

Items
Warheart Weapons: Sublime counterparts to magic weapons.

Monsters
Aay-y'y: Chaotic warriors of amazing power and skill who roam Limbo.
Grave Trooper: Undead soldiers who know how to fight.
Jiang Shi: Kung fu vampires, basically.
Martial Automaton: Programmable martial constructs.

[elliott20]

holy Reshar's deadly pinkie, demented one. I knew that you and krimm have been ridiculously productive little bees on this front but I did not realize the extent of which we're talking about here.

[Gralamin]

holy Reshar's deadly pinkie, demented one. I knew that you and krimm have been ridiculously productive little bees on this front but I did not realize the extent of which we're talking about here.

You obviously don't know them very well .

I'd also throw in the lesser disciples by I_Got_This_Name, which can be found Here.

[Agrippa]

How about the shadow knight? Part Solomon Kane part mystical ninja.

[DragoonWraith]

Oh, in terms of classes, in addition to the bard-like I'm working on, I also made the Holy Knight, a Invocation/Maneuver PrC. First draft was horrendously overpowered, since I was just writing down every idea that I had, but I haven't managed to get any critique on the revision.

[elliott20]

yeah, I do vaguely recall seeing the lesser disciplines sometime back. Good to know that we can pull them back into the fold. Though, to be honest, I feel that some of the stuff there doesn't fit with some of the conventions mentioned here.

the lesser disciplines, for all intensive purposes, are in the same boat as most homebrews done by Demented One. As such, I feel that perhaps we should try to merge the conventions here.

the lesser disciplines as of right now, require a feat expenditure in order to add onto your list of your learn-able schools. Demented one handles it through a single training investment of 1000 xp or replacing an existing one.

Between the two, I feel that the demented one's implementation is better for the learning convention. (since it's not tied to a resource that is very precious)

The second issue that I'm beginning to see here is that a lot of the materials occupy very similar fluff. As such, they over lap quite a bit. I think we've already seen 2-3 different knight initiators that basically screams "assassin's creed".

We need to find a way to really differentiate between these different initiators or we're gonna have to (and I hate even saying this) just pick a single one and move on. There are several methods I can think of for this kind of reconciliation:

1. the fluff similar because they are fundamentally off shoots of each other. They are all just branch offs from the same source. That is, it's simply a matter of region, era, or some other philosophical difference that creates the difference.

2. pick a most suitable one that the board likes the best, and drop the other ones.

3. merge them together to make them a single material, taking on aspects of each. I don't really like this since it means create ANOTHER version of the material.

[Gralamin]

yeah, I do vaguely recall seeing the lesser disciplines sometime back. Good to know that we can pull them back into the fold. Though, to be honest, I feel that some of the stuff there doesn't fit with some of the conventions mentioned here.

the lesser disciplines, for all intensive purposes, are in the same boat as most homebrews done by Demented One. As such, I feel that perhaps we should try to merge the conventions here.

the lesser disciplines as of right now, require a feat expenditure in order to add onto your list of your learn-able schools. Demented one handles it through a single training investment of 1000 xp or replacing an existing one.

Between the two, I feel that the demented one's implementation is better for the learning convention. (since it's not tied to a resource that is very precious)

That sounds reasonable, and simple to change.

The second issue that I'm beginning to see here is that a lot of the materials occupy very similar fluff. As such, they over lap quite a bit. I think we've already seen 2-3 different knight initiators that basically screams "assassin's creed".

We need to find a way to really differentiate between these different initiators or we're gonna have to (and I hate even saying this) just pick a single one and move on. There are several methods I can think of for this kind of reconciliation:

1. the fluff similar because they are fundamentally off shoots of each other. They are all just branch offs from the same source. That is, it's simply a matter of region, era, or some other philosophical difference that creates the difference.

2. pick a most suitable one that the board likes the best, and drop the other ones.

3. merge them together to make them a single material, taking on aspects of each. I don't really like this since it means create ANOTHER version of the material.

#1 Is the quickest, and perhaps the best. #2 cuts down document size, at the cost of voting time. #3 Is probably not a good idea.
I vote for #1, #2 if needed.

[Eldan]

If you need a fluff-writer, I'd be willing to help.

Also, for a name, I think I saw "The Book of Forgotten Swords" somewhere years ago on this forum. Sounds awesome to me.

[elliott20]

If you need a fluff-writer, I'd be willing to help.

I most certainly will.

Also, for a name, I think I saw "The Book of Forgotten Swords" somewhere years ago on this forum. Sounds awesome to me.

It's a good name, but my feeling right now is that we're not trying to make a book about the forgotten/lost arts, but simply use this to create a period where we have literally hundreds and thousands of schools out there, all with different interpretations and ideas about martial arts. That is, an age of martial scholars.

The main nine are meant to the mainstream school that everyone who does martial arts know about, and probably each one have major factions built around it.

But along the side, if you do a little digging, you start seeing all the other offshoots and branches that have their own thing going on. Basically, we're trying to make what is a DC 30 knowledge check into a DC 15 check.

[elliott20]

This post I'm going to reserve to talk about the canonical time-line as shown in the ToB book.

There is no mention of actual times or years in the ToB, possibly so that the material can be quickly adapted to any game. So in keeping with that, I have no intention of adding actual time lines in here so much as relative time references to mark events.

What I feel would be immensely useful is the division of time frames. Right now we have a clear division in time periods:

before Reshar developed the temple
the era while Reshar was at the temple
post-Reshar era

For the purposes of brevity, I'll split events into two sections: before temple BT and after temple AT. (someone PLEASE help me come up with a better term. I feel dumber just typing that) pre-temple talks about the time when Reshar is still trying to establish himself as a master warrior.

somewhere in there we have to fit in these events
Reshar's early life
Reshar acquiring each of the 9 disciplines
Reshar creating the temple for the 9
The era of Reshar's glory
Reshar's retirement
Temple Destruction