The Brawler (Base Class, PEACH!)

[Averagedog]

probably more AC or save related abilities would be more balancing. If we keep giving the brawler more HP it will make some caster spells fairly trivial :P

[BRC]

probably more AC or save related abilities would be more balancing. If we keep giving the brawler more HP it will make some caster spells fairly trivial :P

Give them Evasion and/or Good reflex saves? That will still leave them open to non-fear based Will save stuff, but that could be said of lots of classes (Fighters, Barbs, Rogues, Rangers)

[Averagedog]

hmmmm maybe it is better to think of flavor on this one.

How about something like "mad foam rager" where he can simply ignore the spell effects (or maybe for the rager, spell effects and damage that would take him below 1) until the next round? maybe based on a per encounter basis?

Or perhaps something like the Crusader's damage pool where the damage is placed temporarily onto the side before it is applied the next round which gives the brawler a temporary boost to dealing damage with his attacks? (This could replace that ability that increases the attack and damage of the brawler based on what level he is)

[Magikeeper]

On the SBA:

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Well, the brawler only gets 4 supernatural abilities and some of the stuff they really want (Magic attacks, etc.) are also very boring. Most SBAs I created had 3 parts:
> A scaling defensive ability.
> A social ability.
> Something else that makes the brawler better at offense.

Some of them had 4 bonuses, some had fewer, many of the bonuses are things I wouldn’t want to waste a brawler ability on (Like magic hands) combined with flavorfully similar things. Basically I treated them kinda like tactical feats, only mixed with static bonuses. I think the SBA should be a bigger deal than any one BA. Sort of a way to customize the ‘base’ of your Brawler.

On Names, I just liked the idea of the intimidate cycle (although the last two didn’t fit the pattern..) Anyway, I don’t know what kind of names you like but the Man of.. cycle is pretty general. For example, Man of the land could have any wild-ish brawler type name.

On Defense:

Potions: Please no. Potions are really bad. I think I might have used 1 in my entire D&D history. Maybe two.


Eternal Mad Foam Rager would be quite fun. Combine it with the ability to ignore one delayed effect/attack per encounter?

Also fun would be the ability to automatically pass any save DC that is below the brawler’s modifier (As a high level ability anyway).

Hmmmm…. Maybe give the brawler the ability to make fort saves to half damage dealt to him? DC = Damage dealt. Specifically note that the ability does not work with mettle or similar effects.


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Swaying an AoO could be really fun in some situations.... well, I'd note that you can't use CS while already in the middle of a movement. That should solve all kinds of problems.

[Averagedog]

seriously? are you kidding me? Potions are like cheap spells in dnd 3.5... once a wizard or a cleric runs out of spell slots, when do you then heal your dying allies? seriously. I think it's cool that the ability the Brawler has to maximize healing is AWESOME. Cure mod potions become instant 37 HP infusions.

Mad foam isn't eternal. I think it should basically be the same as the feat except be able to be used once per encounter rather than once per day.

[Magikeeper]

seriously? are you kidding me? Potions are like cheap spells in dnd 3.5... once a wizard or a cleric runs out of spell slots, when do you then heal your dying allies? seriously. I think it's cool that the ability the Brawler has to maximize healing is AWESOME. Cure mod potions become instant 37 HP infusions.

Mad foam isn't eternal. I think it should basically be the same as the feat except be able to be used once per encounter rather than once per day.

Potions are not an efficient use of gold. Get a wand, a belt of healing, anything. Hire/recruit an NPC cleric even. Use weird combos for infinite out of combat healing if you must. If you are actually using a ton of potions you would be better off using spell-items that prevent you from taking the damage in the first place. The brawler max-heal ability wouldn't be awesome if it only worked for potions.

As for mad foam, yeah, an eternal version would be like always winning initiative. I still like it, but I think you are right at lower levels. Maybe have it start out as 1/encounter at level... 6? with an extra use at levels 10, 14, and 18 with the restriction that you can't delay an effect that has already been delayed. Then we could have an actual capstone (Eternal Mad Foam + 1/encounter "effect never happens") at level 20. One that matters at epic levels. Maybe 6/11/14/17 would be a better set up if there is a capstone, since having a pattern wouldn't matter. I think this would be in flavor for the brawler.

[BRC]

How about this
Give them a Good reflex save

New ability: Brawler's Reflexes. The Brawler's particular brand of fighting leads to becoming very good at avoiding blows. A Brawler gains an additional +1 dodge bonus at 2nd level, with an additional +1 bonus every 3 levels after that.

[Averagedog]

that sounds very fair. Evasion doesn't seem to fit Brawlers :P They aren't acrobats after all. With this addition, their AC will be almost at baseline for suggested non casting combatant AC by level. (Formula goes 13 + character level) At earlier levels, they should be at or a bit over this, but later on they will spend a normal amount of resources to stay at the AC suggested AC level. Depending on your dexterity/stats, they will most likely start falling under around level 11-13, but because of their hit points and the types of monsters that most PC's fight around those levels and beyond, AC becomes less and less relevant unless if you are a squishy assassin type combatant like a rogue.

Fair trade indeed.

What do you feel about the mad foam effect suggestions?

[BRC]

that sounds very fair. Evasion doesn't seem to fit Brawlers :P They aren't acrobats after all. With this addition, their AC will be almost at baseline for suggested non casting combatant AC by level. (Formula goes 13 + character level) At earlier levels, they should be at or a bit over this, but later on they will spend a normal amount of resources to stay at the AC suggested AC level. Depending on your dexterity/stats, they will most likely start falling under around level 11-13, but because of their hit points and the types of monsters that most PC's fight around those levels and beyond, AC becomes less and less relevant unless if you are a squishy assassin type combatant like a rogue.

Fair trade indeed.

What do you feel about the mad foam effect suggestions?

Hrmm, I guess. I'm trying to think of a point to slip that in, maybe replace my current Adrenaline Rush with a Mad Foam once per day per Con mod.

[Averagedog]

yes and yes :P it sounds far more useful and it costs the person a brawler ability slot. very worthwhile in my opinion.

edit:

Can the brawler select Brawler abilities (not supernatural ones) for his feats as well?

[BRC]

yes and yes :P it sounds far more useful and it costs the person a brawler ability slot. very worthwhile in my opinion.

edit:

Can the brawler select Brawler abilities (not supernatural ones) for his feats as well?

I havn't added it to the first post, but yes, though you need at least 2 brawler abilities already and to take the feat.

[Averagedog]

now that survivability seems pretty good, let's look at the Brawler's intimidation mechanics.
At level 9 subtle pump essentially allows the brawler to intimidate his foes as a free action and double the penalties if they fail.

Speak softly, at level two changes intimidate checks to strength checks. What about Champion, the Brawlers essential capstone? why is it based off of Charisma if his other intimidation ability is based off of strength?

[BRC]

now that survivability seems pretty good, let's look at the Brawler's intimidation mechanics.
At level 9 subtle pump essentially allows the brawler to intimidate his foes as a free action and double the penalties if they fail.

Speak softly, at level two changes intimidate checks to strength checks. What about Champion, the Brawlers essential capstone? why is it based off of Charisma if his other intimidation ability is based off of strength?

Because I stole it pretty much wholesale from Frightful Presence. I could make it Str based.

[Cute_Riolu]

I'd say, yeah, that the dodge bonus thing is a good ability... but it feels way too much like an ability tax. What brawler WOULDN'T take it?

[Averagedog]

uh no, the reflex save and the dodge bonus are class abilities...

[BRC]

uh no, the reflex save and the dodge bonus are class abilities...

Yeah, this.
I'm trying to avoid Ability Tax BA's. I don't mind having good BA's that lots of people will take, but I don't want there to be any brawler abilities that must be taken in order for the class to function.

[Cute_Riolu]

Oh, sorry, my mistake. I misread it. :P

[Averagedog]

so, are those changes going to be added to the original post? Or has the weekend actually killed the development of this class?

[BRC]

so, are those changes going to be added to the original post? Or has the weekend actually killed the development of this class?

They will, I've just been busy. I'll get around to it.

[Lyndworm]

I just got the go-ahead to playtest the Brawler. Are there any Brawler abilities in specific that you'd like to see tested? If not, I'll probably just try to break it and see what happens.

[Lyndworm]

I noticed that none of the Brawler's Brawler Abilities can be used while wearing Medium or Heavy armor. I propose the change that the majority of the Brawler Abilities can be used while wearing Medium or Heavy armor, but a few still cannot be. These would be the abilities based on agility, such as Big Stepper, Constant Sway, Corkscrew Charge, Float like a Butterfly, Uncanny Dodge, and Improved Uncanny Dodge.

I also propose two new Brawler Abilities.

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I'm the Juggernaut...!:
The Brawler gains proficiency with Medium and Heavy Armor.

Iron Onslaught:
The Brawler gains proficiency with Armor Spikes and Armor Razors. Additionally, the base damage for these weapons is equal to the base damage for the Brawler's Unarmed Strike, and attacks made with Gauntlets (and Spiked Gauntlets) are treated as Unarmed Strikes for all effects.

[Lyndworm]

The classes are surprisingly similar, but I feel that this one is superior in multiple ways. Thank you for bringing it to my attention.

[BRC]

The classes are surprisingly similar, but I feel that this one is superior in multiple ways. Thank you for bringing it to my attention.

?

Anyway, in response, I've jumped through alot of hoops trying to keep the Brawler as a front-line fighter in light armor. This is largely for the purpose of the Aesthetic of the Brawler. My mental image of this class has always been of a guy in a barfight, or of somebody like Marv from Sin City. The idea of wearing heavy armor just didn't work with that.
Of course, the Monk class also sucked because WoTC tried too hard to stick to the Aesthetic of a semi-mystic kung-fu guy, I don't want to make the same mistake, letting the class suffer in the name of a mental image.

So yeah, to the Peanut Gallery out there, do you think the class needs heavier armor?

[Lix Lorn]

It doesn't NEED it, but the option would be nice.

[Lyndworm]

?

That was in response to someone (I don't remember who) posting a link to another class called Brawler. It had a few similarities such as a customizable fighting style and something else that escapes me at the moment, but I still feel that your class is superior.

Anyway, in response, I've jumped through alot of hoops trying to keep the Brawler as a front-line fighter in light armor. This is largely for the purpose of the Aesthetic of the Brawler. My mental image of this class has always been of a guy in a barfight, or of somebody like Marv from Sin City. The idea of wearing heavy armor just didn't work with that.

I see the Brawler as an unarmed combatant, to be honest. That could be Marv, that could be Wilson Fisk, that could be Oyama Masutatsu, it could even be Gotz von Berlichingen. I think that there's a lot of variety there.

Of course, the Monk class also sucked because WoTC tried too hard to stick to the Aesthetic of a semi-mystic kung-fu guy, I don't want to make the same mistake, letting the class suffer in the name of a mental image.

I don't think that you run the risk of falling into the Monk's shoes. For one thing, the Brawler has a clearly defined role of Heavy Hitter. This can be modified depending on the abilities chosen, (for example, you can create a battlefield control build through Trips and Intimidate usage, or a charging monster, or even a mobile acrobat).

With the addition of the I'm the Juggernaut...! ability, one of the builds that you can make is the Tank, standing in front of the other guy and absorbing as much damage as you dish out. Since this requires you to spend a Brawler ability to get, I think it's pretty balanced. I've been doing some Brawler playtesting, and I don't think that this will break anything.

So yeah, to the Peanut Gallery out there, do you think the class needs heavier armor?

I don't think that the Brawler really needs anything at this point. The addition of heavier armors adds a little more versatility in concept if absolutely nothing else.

I think that Easy Patient might be too good, though. It's not overpowered, it's just significantly more useful than the other Supernatural Brawler Abilities. Unless its being played in a very specific campaign setting, Easy Patient is what every single Brawler will take at 5th level, which means it's too good.

Maybe we could give the others a boost of some sort?

Here are some more Brawler Abilities that I just imagined, along with the "updated" Supernatural Abilities:

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Sting Like a Bee:
Prerequisites: Float Like a Butterfly
Benefit: The Brawler gains a +1 bonus on attack rolls and a +2 bonus on damage rolls for every 5ft moved before attacking. These bonuses only apply to the first attack in a round, unless the Brawler has some way to move between attacks (such as from the Constant Sway Brawler Ability).
Special: This Brawler Ability only functions as long as the Brawler is not wearing Medium or Heavy armor, and is not carrying a medium or heavy load.

Swift Pounce:
Prerequisites: Big Stepper
Benefit: The Brawler may subtract a number from his attack rolls this round up to his Base Attack Bonus. Should he choose to do so, can move a number of squares equal to the amount subtracted as a Swift action. The maximum distance the Brawler may move in this way is equal to his land speed. If the Brawler ends this movement with an attack, at counts as a charge so long as the last 10ft were in a straight line towards the target.
Special: This Brawler Ability only functions as long as the Brawler is not wearing Medium or Heavy armor, and is not carrying a medium or heavy load.

Flesh Over Steel:
Benefit: A Brawler’s unarmed strikes are treated as Adamantine for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Additionally, the Brawler gains DR5/Adamantine.

Devil Puncher:
Benefit: A Brawler’s unarmed strikes are treated as Cold Iron for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Additionally, the Brawler gains DR5/Silver.

Werewolf Boxer:
Benefit: A Brawler’s unarmed strikes are treated as Silver for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Additionally, the Brawler gains DR5/Cold Iron.

Magic Hands:
Benefit: A Brawler’s unarmed strikes are treated as Magic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Additionally, the Brawler gains DR5/Magic & (Bludgeoning, Slashing, or Piercing).

Ghost Buster:
Benefit: The Brawler's unarmed Strikes are treated as being Ghost Touch for the purpose of hitting Incorporeal targets. Additionally, the Brawler may grapple Incorporeal targets.

Fist for Good:
Prerequisites: Must not have the Hand of Evil ability.Benefit: The Brawler's unarmed strikes are treated as being Good aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Additionally, the Brawler gains DR5/Evil. The Brawler must be of non-Evil alignment to take this ability.

Hand of Evil:
Prerequisites: Must not have the Fist for Good ability.
Benefit: The Brawler's unarmed strikes are treated as being Evil aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Additionally, the Brawler gains DR5/Good. The Brawler must be of non-Good alignment to take this ability.

Long Arm of the Law:
Prerequisites: Must not have the Unreasonable Assault ability.
Benefit: The Brawler's unarmed strikes are treated as being Lawfully aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Additionally, the Brawler gains DR5/Chaotic. The Brawler must be of non-Chaotic alignment to take this ability.

Unreasonable Assault:
Prerequisites: Must not have the Long Arm of the Law ability.
Benefit: The Brawler's unarmed strikes are treated as being Chaotically aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Additionally, the Brawler gains DR5/Lawful. The Brawler must be of non-Lawful alignment to take this ability.

[BRC]

Hrmm, what I might do is remove the Armor Limitation from all but a few Brawler Abilities, and then let Brawlers freely spend extra feats on/ Multiclass for Armor Proficiency.

Also, you said you playtested it, how did that work out?

[Lyndworm]

Fairly well. The game's still running, actually, but there's not been as much combat as one would hope for in a playtest. If anything noteworthy arises, I'll most certainly post it here.

I think that removing the armor limitation would be very cool. I suggested having the Brawler Ability to grant proficiency only because I think that that makes it feel like a legitimate Brawler build, whereas just having the capability makes it sound more like a real effort. It's more of a personal feeling than a logical thought.

[Lyndworm]

Just a bump.

[imp_fireball]

You should give an advantage to the brawler for wielding gauntlets. That would be their signature weapon, aside from unarmed.

[Nanoblack]

Or make a list of magical gauntlets that would go well with the class... Utterdeath Gauntlet, Gauntlet of Rust, Dwarvenforge(I think) Gauntlet, ect...

Maybe make some new ones.