Warhammer 40K Tabletop VII: Common Sense is not RAW.

[lord_khaine]

Eldar may only have 4++ saves, but they get fortune to reroll those. You should be happy if you never need to deal with a fortuned seer council. Now that is a nightmare

That is something i have been thinking about, but it would seem that while they will have a good save, they would also have trouble dealing with anything that has a good save, since they dont have any power weapons.

D-Cannons. Wraithguard. Nobody ever remembers those. Most Eldar players can't think beyond Fire Dragons and Howling Banshees. Which is a shame. Really.

Wraithguard? looking at the profile it would seem like it does not have the volume of fire to deal with a +3 inv save, or is there not a save against the instant death result of rolling a 6 to wound?

[Cheesegear]

Wraithguard? looking at the profile it would seem like it does not have the volume of fire to deal with a +3 inv save, or is there not a save against the instant death result of rolling a 6 to wound?

Well, you need more than 3 Wraithguard.

You can't stop the 3+ Invulnerable no matter what you do. But, wounding on 2s, with AP2, ends up causing a fair amount of Wounds. You can always cast Guide on the Wraithguard too.
D-Cannons are the same. Except follow the Multiple Barrage rule causing even more hits for about half the points of Wraithguard. If Logan isn't rocking Fearless, he and his unit could be in trouble.


The other thing to remember is Logan...And say, five Terminators with Storm Shields comes out to 515 Points. What's the rest of his army? If they're on foot, you're Eldar and should be running rings around them.

[Closet_Skeleton]

So, a Black Templars Techmarine is a 105 point independant character with:

A 2+ save, but sadly no invun
2+1 power weapon attacks in melee, that can get prefered enemy
2 power fist attacks that can also get prefered enemy
A twin linked plasma pistol and a flamer and an effectively twin linked bolt gun, of which two can fire.
A crappy 11/36 (or not, my maths skills suck) chance of healing a vehicle if both he and the vehicle don't move
Crusader seals, signmum and auspex

A bit expensive and fragile against power weapons, but now I just want to convert a Black Templars techmarine that looks like Doctor Octopus.

[lord_khaine]

The other thing to remember is Logan...And say, five Terminators with Storm Shields comes out to 515 Points. What's the rest of his army? If they're on foot, you're Eldar and should be running rings around them.

The rest of his army were 5 additional wolfguards and a predator, as described in the battle report.
And well, the problem was that he was running down towards my objective, in that case i cant just run away.

[Cheesegear]

The rest of his army were 5 additional wolfguards and a predator, as described in the battle report.

Ah, so, 1000 points...And your opponent only has 13 models on the board, and you don't know how to beat that? Volume of fire. That's all you need.

Honestly, I don't know what else you could use. You could drop the Guardians for two squads of as many Rangers as you can fit. Grab yourself three units of Troops for 1000 points. You've just got to deny him his 2+ saves. Because that's all you can do.

Really, as I said before, Eldar don't have anything that can decisively deal with good Invulnerables. Not many armies do. That's why Hammernators and Storm Shields in general are so good.

[Klose_the_Sith]

Really, as I said before, Eldar don't have anything that can decisively deal with good Invulnerables. Not many armies do. That's why Hammernators and Storm Shields in general are so good.

I'll say, I just finished a game where my Hammernators took down 3 Penitent Engines (Squadron'd) and soaked up waves of fire ... then two of them died from one of the Penitents exploding

Twas fun!

By-the-by, that was the first game I ever did win, so I'm riding on a fairly big high here

[lord_khaine]

Ah, so, 1000 points...And your opponent only has 13 models on the board, and you don't know how to beat that? Volume of fire. That's all you need.

I did win that battle, but it seemed clear that the only thing that really had enough volume of fire was my guardians (comming second in place only to my banshees in number of killed Terminators), but the problem is that usualy anything the guardians can shoot will assult them back if it survives, and if the battle had lastet one more turn Logan would have assulted my guardians, and most likely send them running.

[Wraith]

Coupled with the fact the Avatar counts as a Daemon (Captain Falcon is totally right), which Rune Weapons would on a 2+, and then the Avatar doesn't have Eternal Warrior for Force Weapon time.

He's half right; "Counts As" isn't the same as "Is". </Eldar Fanboy >

Anyways, nice report Cheesegear.
You were pretty much spot-on with your remarks about your opponent, I think; in retrospect he did a whole bunch of things wrong, any of which would probably have swung the game against him on their own.

Quite frankly, I'd start with his choice of army. Scorpions instead of Banshess? Small squads of Dire Avengers? Harlequins at all? Against Marines? Really?
I also think he would have been better off splitting the Wraithguard into 2 groups of 5+Warlock and giving them the Wave Serpents, and give them a chance to put those guns to good use.

If nothing else, he shouldn't have been so shy with his Wraithguard - when they have a Spirit Seer with them they no longer roll for Wraithsight, so he might as well have had them roam from their objective a little bit and achieve something. It's not like they were going to get killed without the Cover Save they get from the scenery they're in....

Like we've said before - terrifying unit, but a very easy way to waste 400 points if all you let them do is camp on a rock where no one will go near them.

Aside from his ability to join units, the Avatar does everything the Autarch can do, but better.

Ride in a Transport? Join a unit? Move more than 12" per turn? Deep Strike? Improve your Reserves rolls? NOT draw fire like a big, neon bulls-eye?

Avatars and Autarchs are very different units for different situations. I don't understand why people always compare them so directly - You could say the same thing about a Daemon Prince and a Sorcerer, but it just isn't true.

But anyway, i have recently been wondering how to counter it when some crazy bastard like Logan comes walking down the battlefield with a gang of terminators and far to many storm shields...

With Eldar?
Fire Dragons, Howling Banshees, (Troop-sized) Wraithguard, enormous piles of Rangers and Pathfinders, D-Cannon, Shining Spears.... Uhh.... Farseer with Eldritch Storm and hope they get unlucky on their Pinning tests?

Cheesegear is right - there's no 'good' way to get rid of Hammernators. The best you can hope for is to find something that kind of works, and take dozens of them. Statistics might not work, but Dice are sociable creatures and always act in better temperament when they have lots of company.

[Tren]

Honestly, I don't know what else you could use. You could drop the Guardians for two squads of as many Rangers as you can fit. Grab yourself three units of Troops for 1000 points. You've just got to deny him his 2+ saves. Because that's all you can do.

Really, as I said before, Eldar don't have anything that can decisively deal with good Invulnerables. Not many armies do. That's why Hammernators and Storm Shields in general are so good.

You don't need to ignore their armor saves in order to deal with Hammernators. In fact it's exponentially easier to deal with them just by forcing armor saves when their backup to AP2 is a 3++. You can fit a lot more Dire Avengers, Warp Spiders, and Scatter Lasers/Shuricannons in a list than you can Star Cannons and Ranger Long-rifles.

I realize math doesn't work in your world, but a full squad of dire avengers shooting normally (not with Bladestorm) will fare significantly better against a squad of Hammernators than a full squad of Pathfinders with their rending and AP1--and the Avengers are almost half the price. You said it yourself that volume of fire is the best way to deal with them, but I'm not understanding how that implies denying them their armor save.

[Trixie]

Well, it seems my question was sort of lost, so...

CSM battleforce or Berserkers sprue: I wonder, can these be converted to regular marines? You know, it seems to me you can hack "ears" off, and you have a 12-assault-marines-in-price-of-10 discount. They seem to be far less mutated than other CSM, so conversion would take less work.

Obviously... the issues I see with this approach would be: Chaos decorations (might be filed off or replaced by loyalist, especially 'pads), helmets (but since GW used those in BT figures, Emperor's Champion, even, I don't think this will be a problem) and chainaxes (count-as CCWs for Sergeants?).

Also, it contains a few skull helmets, which might be used to make Chaplains (as most minis of them are metal and sucky). Am I on the right track, or would this be too much effort?

So, can they be used to supplement assault squads and make these few extra Chaplains for BT?

How much nerdrage/whining a chainaxe in lolaylist hands would get?

---

By the way, to bring something new to the thread:

New Daemon sprues, including these of the Prince.

Huh, make/buy two sets of legs and you can build three of those! 2x DP and 1x Greater Daemon all in one!

[Cheesegear]

Quite frankly, I'd start with his choice of army. Scorpions instead of Banshess?

It's what I would have in that list. Against my army, the Banshees would have been wounding on 6s. Which doesn't even really make them a threat. Also, Banshees need a Wave Serpent.

Small squads of Dire Avengers? Harlequins at all? Against Marines? Really?

The Dire Avengers were squads of 10. How is that 'small'?
I also just shot them with Bolters and Rifles. Which isn't how normal people deal with Dire Avengers (because normal people love Assault). If had Assaulted them like pretty much anyone else, I would have had to deal with Shimmershield+Defend, which gets annoying, fast.
And his Bladestorms, again, T5 is for winners. Had I been playing regular Marines, he would have minced me.

As for 'Against Marines'? Well, you're not supposed to know what your opponent has. Those were 'all-comers' lists like people who play fair are meant to have.

I also think he would have been better off splitting the Wraithguard into 2 groups of 5+Warlock and giving them the Wave Serpents, and give them a chance to put those guns to good use.

Looking at his list, feel free to find the 250+ points it would take to get those extra two Serpents and second Spiritseer.
Better yet, find the Elite slots to spare.

...And then another 120 or so for a Wave Serpent for Banshees.

I'm also pretty sure that the 10 Wraithguard are designed for objective squatting. Which they wouldn't be able to do if they weren't Troops. Guardians can't really 'squat' as with T3 and 5+ save (Conceal), they're still pretty bad.

Rangers can do it, but only if they can get decent cover. Which any certain Ironclad Dreadnought can make a mockery of.

If nothing else, he shouldn't have been so shy with his Wraithguard

This.
Four days after the match, I'm now also pretty sure he shouldn't have put his Dire Avengers in the middle of everything, either.

Statistics might not work, but Dice are sociable creatures and always act in better temperament when they have lots of company.

This is probably the best thing I've read on the subject of Mathhammer. Ever.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Well, it seems my question was sort of lost, so...

I did give a limited answer just a few posts down from your question.

How much nerdrage/whining a chainaxe in lolaylist hands would get?

Is this game really a case of "you vs angry fans" for other people because I've never run into it and I've actually played autistic people.

Still don't like that Daemon prince. The old fantasy ones were way better and the metal 40K one wasn't that bad. But given a choice I'd buy Bel'akor every time.

Thankfully I don't have the money to start that Slaanesh daemon army I want (after my poor ignored Tomb Kings).

[Wraith]

The Dire Avengers were squads of 10. How is that 'small'?

Bleh, it's a typo. I meant a small number of squads of Dire Avengers. More Squads = More Shots = Faint hope of killing SM Bikers.

As for 'Against Marines'? Well, you're not supposed to know what your opponent has. Those were 'all-comers' lists like people who play fair are meant to have.

That's fair enough - I thought that because you had played the same guy a number of times he'd have been familiar with your armies. At least in the sense of knowing that you have lots, and lots, and lots of Marines.

Looking at his list, feel free to find the 250+ points it would take to get those extra two Serpents and second Spiritseer.
Better yet, find the Elite slots to spare.

...And then another 120 or so for a Wave Serpent for Banshees.

I'd use the ones that are currently given to the Dire Avengers, and have them squat on Objectives. Fleet of Foot would still get them across the table pretty fast, after all, and they don't NEED to be on an objective until the last turn.
And the Banshees would get one out of the points I'd save from not taking Harlequins. I really don't see a reason to take them in any all-comers list, they're just not as good as any of the alternatives (Scorpions, Banshees, Warlock Bodyguard).

I'm also pretty sure that the 10 Wraithguard are designed for objective squatting. Which they wouldn't be able to do if they weren't Troops. Guardians can't really 'squat' as with T3 and 5+ save (Conceal), they're still pretty bad.

Given that, by my count, you killed 0 of them, it would suggest that 5 Wraithguard are probably just as good at the same task. Possibly better, because they can hitch a ride and go do it on someone else' objective

You are right, of course, but that's not all they do. T6 and 3+ lets them wander places where ordinary Troops would get turned into a faint, pink mist, so it's a waste to have them ONLY sit and have a tea break.

[Gauntlet]

Wraith, Wraithguard aren't troops unless there are 10 of them.

[Wraith]

Ten and an upgraded Warlock, to be precise. Perhaps that last one should have been troops with a little 't'.
What I'm getting at is that they don't need to be Troops in order to do their job though; there's plenty made up for with Dire Avengers and Rangers.

All I'm saying is, if he must take Wraithguard then there's better ways of doing it than paying 400 points and doing nothing for 4 turns.

Like, for example, turning them into smaller Elite choices and making up for their shortcomings - being slow and short ranged - with a Transport. Although quite frankly I think he'd have been better off with another squad of Fire Dragons and investing the left over points in another unit of Avengers/Rangers instead. Wraithguard have a narrow range of uses, and taking them AND Fire Dragons seems redundant

[DranWork]

Trixie there is already a Loyalist Chapter that uses Chain Axes: Flesh Tearers. So nuff said. Only reason loyalists dont use chain axes is cause its older tech then chainswords. Yeah.. the imperium using newer tech.. weird huh?

[Copper8642]

...Even Large Blast weapons, due to the way they work, can only make a maximum of 5 Hits. One of those should fail to wound, or simply not hit/be off target from the unit so you don't have to take wounds to the non-Storm Shielded Apothecary...

...When the Avatar and Falcon were both down to 1 wound each, I was actually pretty worried. But, apparently, Statistics aren't real. Like I keep saying...

Also, this is just a random note, but the Frag Cannon option for Furioso Dreadnoughts I've fought to be far better than a DCCW with a bolter attached. -1 CC attack for a template of death.

[Psychotic]

Also, this is just a random note, but the Frag Cannon option for Furioso Dreadnoughts I've fought to be far better than a DCCW with a bolter attached. -1 CC attack for a template of death.

Agreed. Add a heavy flamer onto that and you can easily stack up 20+ wounds on a horde in a single phase. Combine with drop pod for extra special fun.

[Lycan 01]

Got the 20 Catachans. It came with 4 freakishly huge machetes, which I think would make awesome Power Swords. This makes me happy.

I'm probably going to use about 7 or 8 of them for various conversions and experiments to make my Inquisitor's Retinue. The rest will be "regular" Guardsmen, + an Autocannon or 2. This way, I'll be able to either run a Daemonhunter force with a 30+ strong Infantry Platoon, or a small Imperial Guard army with a Lord Commissar HQ, 1 Platoon of 20-ish, and 1 Veteran Squad. Yes, yes, terrible idea, but its fun to have options and variety open for consideration.


Once I get a few conversions done, I'll be sure to brag about exhibit them in the Models thread. I reeeeeeeally want to take a crack at a Kitbashed/Greenstuffed Techpriest. The Omnissiah Axe will be a bit of a chore, though...

[Ninja Chocobo]

Also, this is just a random note, but the Frag Cannon option for Furioso Dreadnoughts I've fought to be far better than a DCCW with a bolter attached. -1 CC attack for a template of death.

Not as ridiculously broken as Blood Talons, though.

[Winterwind]

Great battle report, Cheesegear. Well done.

Really, as I said before, Eldar don't have anything that can decisively deal with good Invulnerables. Not many armies do. That's why Hammernators and Storm Shields in general are so good.

The trauma of a single Hammernator and Vulkan He'Stan (who is sort of similar to a particularly cheesy Hammernator) defeating a squad of Khornate Berserkers and a squad of Noise Marines, with a Slaaneshi Chaos Sorcerer and both squads having power-weapon/fist wielding champions, when the squads charged them simultaneously, without suffering any wounds or losses, still makes me weep at night.

[Closet_Skeleton]

The trauma of a single Hammernator and Vulkan He'Stan (who is sort of similar to a particularly cheesy Hammernator) defeating a squad of Khornate Berserkers and a squad of Noise Marines, with a Slaaneshi Chaos Sorcerer and both squads having power-weapon/fist wielding champions, when the squads charged them simultaneously, without suffering any wounds or losses, still makes me weep at night.

There were two Slaanesh sorcerers and they let the hammernators near them?

[Winterwind]

There were two Slaanesh sorcerers and they let the hammernators near them?

One sorcerer. I wouldn't ever subject my opponents to two of those. I'm not a monster.

And, well, there was other stuff to kill still around, so I figured it would serve me best to get rid of those last two models quickly. I had lashed them back the rounds before (and shot down the vast majority of the Hammernator squad while doing so), and I figured there was simply no way they would survive this massive number of attacks (about 50, thereof 12 that ignored armour saves), so I decided to finish them off in my combat phase.

I admittedly had a slightly bad feeling about that, but the spectators all kept urging me to finally send the Berserkers into combat, so I finally caved in.

And even with the above 50 attacks failing to kill either of these two models, they still could kill only a few of my models a turn. I could reasonably expect to kill them (or, you know, at least one of them) in one of the subsequent turns. But, no, that didn't work either. Altogether these two models must have survived some 100 attacks or so unharmed.

[Gauntlet]

Really, as I said before, Eldar don't have anything that can decisively deal with good Invulnerables. Not many armies do. That's why Hammernators and Storm Shields in general are so good.

Aren't Pariahs practically the only thing which does well against Hammernators? Although they only have one attack, they're probably the best choice for the job

[Closet_Skeleton]

Aren't Pariahs practically the only thing which does well against Hammernators? Although they only have one attack, they're probably the best choice for the job

Callidus Assassins are okay at charging in and killing one or two before dying in return.

edit:

Played my first (1000 points) game with my blood angels encarmine.

Spoiler

Show

I had:
Librarian Epistolery with blood boil, unleash rage, a jump pack and a hand flamer
Sanguinary Priest with jump pack and power sword
10 assault marines with 2 flamers, power fist and hand flamer
10 assault marines with 2 melta guns, thunder hammer and infernus pistol
10 tactical marines with plasma gun, plasma cannon and power fist.

He had:
12 battle sisters with heavy flamer, flamer, imagifer, evicerator.
10 battle sisters with heavy flamer, flamer, imagifer
6 seraphim with two twin hand flamers, plasma pistol and power sword
6 dominions with brazier, power sword and 4 flamers.
Palatine with blessed weapon
Exorcist
Immolator with heavy flamers.

Deployment
I combat squad my melta and tactical squads. The melta half goes in reserve. I have a wall in front of my objective, so the half of my tactical squad with the plasma gun and cannon go on one side and the half with the power fist goes on the other. The flamer assault squad, my priest and librarian go behind the wall and the not deepstriking half of the other assault squad goes next to the plasma cannon.

He puts his 10 woman squad on his objective and puts the rest of his army facing up my plasma cannon.

My turn one I just move the power fist tactical marines forwards (but forget to run ) and fire my plasma cannon, killing some sisters.

His turn he sends his immolator up and unloads his dominions on the other side of the wall from the assault squad. His non-objective sitting sisters and seraphim advance. The exorcist and the objective sitters manage to kill three members of my power fist squad while on the other side of the battle I lose my plasma gun and a few more marines, but my carefully placed priest helps a lot. My plasma cannon fails his morale check and flees, but it doesn't matter due to atsknf.

Turn 2
My deep strikers come on with their reroll and land right in front of the exorcist. It evapourates. The other half of their combat squad then jump packs behind the immolator and stun it with their bolt pistols. My plasma cannon fires at the dominions and kills them all with one shot. Except it shouldn't have since we couldn't find our rule book and didn't know how gets hot worked with blast weapons. The plasma cannon dies in his moment of glory. The flamer squad flies up to the battle sisters put get in the way of their own flamers and the librarian rolls and 11 for blood boil. But they still manage to charge and kill half of them, though the sisters don't run. The assault marines that shot the immolator charge but their krak grenades fail to penetrate.

The objective sitters shoot back at the melta marines and kill one melter gunner and a normal assault marine. The seraphim use cheesy positioning to shoot at the unengaged immolator stunners but hit some of the engaged marines with their flamers. This dubiously legal act fails to do anything. They then multi-assault both units hoping to help out the palatine who's stuck with the sisters. The palatine uses a faith point to win initative and kills the sanguinary priest, robbing me of feel no pain, but her sisters fail to kill any marines and the seraphim only kill two from the combat squad. In return my larger squad kills a few the sisters and wounds the palatine. The cowardly seraphim escape with hit and run.

Turn 3
The half of the assault combat squad (who were left unengaged) that were near the immolator fly over to the enemy objective while their melta gun half goes to take thier place. A lone tactical marine finds that his plasma gunning buddies are all dead and that our objective is unmanned, so he heads for it. On the other side of the battle field his sergeant runs forwards and lets his remaining buddy fire his bolt pistol to no effect. The melta gunners explode the immolator, their job done as both enemy tanks are now gone.

In combat the librarian's marines butcher every last one of the palatine's bodyguards. Two assault marines and the power fist wielding sergeant charge the objective sitters. The assault marines kill two as the sisters fail to pierce their armour. Finally the sergeant pulled back his power fist, hit twice and wounded... not a single one. Regardless, the cowardly sisters broke and fled.

On the sisters turn even the expendature of a faith point couldn't rally the sisters and they continued to flee. However they managed to do far better while fleeing than they ever were while being brave and toast the cack-handed sergeant, his squadmate and one of the assault marines, leaving the remaining one to flee back to his own lines.

Seeing the palatine alone, the seraphim charge back into the fight. However their efforts are meaningless and the librarian cuts the palatine to pieces, suffering only a single wound from her holy sword.

Turn 4.

The lone assault marine rallies and heads back into the fight. The seraphim continue to battle the assault marines, only to escape with hit and run.

On his turn the objective sitters rally, but have no line of sight to any space marines. The four surviving seraphim see the three remaining members of the melta gun squad and fire their hand flamers, killing a standard marine and the sergeant, his thunder hammer unbloodied. The melta gunner survives long enough to kill a seraphim in combat before falling to an excessive number of pistol whips (I think I rolled like three 1s for his saves).

Turn 5

The librarian decides that he's had enough of the seraphim and finally manages to position his flamers so that they can fire without hitting their allies. The two flamers only cause one wound but the sergeant and librarian's hand flamers fair better and the seraphim are finally wiped out with the taste of their own medicine.

The sole remaining unit of battle sisters take some shots at the assault marines but fail to deal any important damage.

Turn 6.
The dice for the next turn comes up a four and the game continues (it would have been a draw otherwise)

The assault marines once again ill position themselves and only the librarian can fire his hand flamer. Thinking he can hit more with his flamer than with blood boil he fires, but only kills one so in the end its all the same. As his unit charges he focuses his mind to bolster his brothers as he has been doing throughout the battle, but pops a nerve and falls to the wound the palatine inflicted earlier. Yet all was not lost and the assault marines were still inspired to butcher the sisters down to the last woman and capture their objective.

In the end I'd only lost my two independant characters, as at least one member of each of my three units had survived. I'd still had lost 4 kill points due to combat squads though.

The sanguinary priest's power sword was useless and I wished I'd put him on a bike so he could have a better toughness value in melee.

The Descent of Angels melta gunning combat squad proved their worth, but maybe could do without the thunder hammer if they're just going to get shot to bits afterwards. Maybe I should give the sergeant a storm shield instead to take an AP 3 hit off the melta gunners.

[Foeofthelance]

Does anyone know how much a standard high explosive Basilisk round would weigh?

[DranWork]

Librarians with null zone. Negates Hammernators rather well, more so when backed up by an honour guard or something similar. Meltagun toting assault squads, more so if your ba and can have 3 "meltaguns" as they are ap1 I generally find my opponents will take those hits on their hammernators, and we all know how easy it is to fail a 3+... then once their gone the LC termies arnt that much of a problem really.

[Deth Muncher]

So, just in case no one mentioned it...new Demon Prince model? Vurry nice. But the lack of ranged weapon hand means I likely wouldn't be using it for Iron Warriors.

[Selrahc]

How much nerdrage/whining a chainaxe in lolaylist hands would get?

Chainaxes are still used by loyalists. Inquisitor, Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader all have rules for chainaxes, as basically less accurate but more powerful chainswords. In a space marine chapter it would be kind of quirky, but perfectly acceptable. Although you might want to try and cover up the Khornate symbols on the axes.

[Cheesegear]

He had:
12 battle sisters with heavy flamer, flamer, imagifer, evicerator.
10 battle sisters with heavy flamer, flamer, imagifer

...He should've dropped the Seraphim for Metal Bawkses. And no Books for Stubborn? Shame.

The seraphim use cheesy positioning to shoot at the unengaged immolator [...] This dubiously legal act fails to do anything.

Explain?
Is there something I should be doing?

Finally the sergeant pulled back his power fist, hit twice and wounded... not a single one

The melta gunner survives long enough to kill a seraphim in combat before falling to an excessive number of pistol whips (I think I rolled like three 1s for his saves).

...Try putting your dice in a glass of water. It seems you're rolling ones.

I'd still had lost 4 kill points due to combat squads though.

What? What's this about Kill Points? You used objectives...I'm so confused...

The sanguinary priest's power sword was useless and I wished I'd put him on a bike so he could have a better toughness value in melee.

Everything's better on a Bike.

The Descent of Angels melta gunning combat squad proved their worth, but maybe could do without the thunder hammer if they're just going to get shot to bits afterwards.

Thunder Hammer is kind of useless.

Librarians with null zone. Negates Hammernators rather well, more so when backed up by an honour guard or something similar.

It's what I do. Followed up by Vindicator shells. Also shuts down Zoanthropes something shocking.

CAlthough you might want to try and cover up the Khornate symbols on the axes.

Use a Knife.

Does anyone know how much a standard high explosive Basilisk round would weigh?

A Basalisk shell can be lifted by a human. So, maybe 20-30 kilos? I don't know. Probably not as much as you'd think.