Warhammer 40K Tabletop VII: Common Sense is not RAW.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Answer: You have Feel No Pain/Furious Charge across the board, faster tanks, turn one assaults, far better anti-psyker defense, more better marines, one whole unit more...

And yet, there's still 55 free points to be spend on upgrades.

Your land raiders can be lanced, your vindicators can be stunned.

Its an entirely differant army in survivability.

Feel no pain is irrelevant on those units since they won't be out of the transports until they get to charge. Then the priest will be killed in melee and you won't get a single feel no pain roll.

So you're paying 150 points to add furious charge to 30 assault marines. That's 5 points a model. Woo.

You can't guarantee a turn 1 assault either. You can assault 20 inches. That's not enough to turn 1 assault unless you're going second and your opponent lets you because he knows he'll win anyway.

Who said BT are cheaper?

Nobody did. Black Templars are in general more expensive, they just have some units that are cheaper and some units that are too expensive to use but irrelevent since you have plenty of alternatives.

That's also especially irrelevant in a list that paid extra points for things because it wanted to.

[Cheesegear]

Why is there so much aggravation over Cheesegear simply posting an Army List that tries to make the best of an old Codex?

First, it's not my list. It's the #2 Tournament List in my area. And was actually posted in response to Winterwind saying that Blood Angel Dreadnoughts are overpowered. Then Trixie decided to make something of himself...And then again, and again, and again. Despite the fact that's its a pretend game about toy soldiers.

...Sometimes this thread makes me laugh. I'm no exception.

What...Irks me. Is that I've agreed to use Trixie's list the BT list I posted earlier. I plan to challenge him tonight for next week. I think we can safely say that I'm an alright general, so it's not like I'm going to f* up the tactics or anything.

And, as I previously said before as well, it's remarkably similar to the army I use anyway. Except with less Troops and with more faux-Sternguard that fail at being Sternguard.

Trixie's List has also been tailor-made to beat one specific opponent, when I can already guarentee that it fails against a bunch of tournament-lists I can think of, and isn't an 'all-comers' list at all. It's an anti-armour list.

So, I'm done with this discussion until I can prove Trixie wrong or right. I'm not disagreeing that the list he put forward can't beat the BT List. It's just that the BT List rarely gets beaten, and the list that's been put forward hasn't been done before - to my knowledge.

Now, THAT is beton-hard list that laughs at any flanking maneuvers, sneezes at drop pods, cares not for losses, and tables entire armies in first turn without any need for stopping!

And fails (but not totally useless) against opposing Mechanised Lists with Ordnance. And everyone has Ordnance, because it's awesome. Except Orks, who can't kill tanks.

Your land raiders can be lanced, your vindicators can be stunned.

Its an entirely differant army in survivability.

The Land Raiders can also be Melta'd. Which is way worse. By magnitudes.

And Redeemers suck. A classic example of theory/on-paper vs. reality. And reality winning everytime. Everyone knows.

[Tren]

The Land Raiders can also be Melta'd. Which is way worse. By magnitudes.

Is that to still imply Black Templar Land Raiders are immune to melta? I've been over the BT codex and I'm not finding Ceramite Plating anywhere. Like closet pointed out, are you sure you're not thinking of old Salamander's rules? This is the first time I've ever heard anyone suggest a LR can be immune to melta.

[ShadowFighter15]

Tren's right; I've just gone over the BT codex and I can't find Ceramite Plating anywhere in the Vehicle Upgrades section or in the list of upgrades that LRs can take. The only thing I can find is Blessed Hull, which makes LRCs immune to the Lance special rule.

[Ninja Chocobo]

Except Orks, who can't kill tanks.

People keep saying this.
They're wrong.

[Lycan 01]

I can think of plenty of ways Orks can kill Tanks.



Do you think anybody would nit-pick if I modelled an Acolyte in my Inquisitor's Retinue as dual-wielding Bolters to represent a Storm Bolter? It'd be a lot prettier and cooler than trying to meld two Bolters together then forcing them to fit in their hands, or at least to add some variety.

[Klose_the_Sith]

Do you think anybody would nit-pick if I modelled an Acolyte in my Inquisitor's Retinue as dual-wielding Bolters to represent a Storm Bolter? It'd be a lot prettier and cooler than trying to meld two Bolters together then forcing them to fit in their hands, or at least to add some variety.

There *are* people who would nit-pick, but I can't honestly imagine ever wanting to play with those sorts of people, so I'd suggest that you go for it.

Besides, retinues are supposed to be crazy

Just make sure that the model looks awesome. So long as it does, I doubt anyone would really complain that much. It's very hard to argue with badass pieces.

[Wraith]

First, it's not my list.

I never said that it was. I just said that you had posted it for our observation, which just makes it all the more absurd that people are getting in such a twist over it.

Do you think anybody would nit-pick if I modelled an Acolyte in my Inquisitor's Retinue as dual-wielding Bolters to represent a Storm Bolter? It'd be a lot prettier and cooler than trying to meld two Bolters together then forcing them to fit in their hands, or at least to add some variety.

I agree with Klose. So long as it looks 'kinda' right I doubt that enough people will complain to make it worth worrying over.

And if anyone does hassle you over it, challenge them to look through GW's back-catalog and find a non-Marine, non-IG human with a Stormbolter to use as an alternative. They might eventually find one, but they'll be gone long enough for you to play a game with someone else.

[Klose_the_Sith]

Has anyone looked over the GW website today?

'Cause (for me at least) the Vostroyan's are now the new golden boys of the Imperial Guard, whereas the other legions have been kan'd.

Also I don't see "Collectors" for anyone

[Wraith]

I'm looking at the UK site, and I can confirm that all of the "Collectors" categories have been removed from all 40k and Fantasy armies.

As for the IG units, there ARE a lot of Vostroyans on their Troops page (but there's still a decent selection of Catachans and Cadians as well) and they're not under Elites, Fast or Heavy.

Maybe they're clearing out old stock? Or are doing their absolute damnedest to plug the Daemons that are coming out this month. Neither would surprise me, and it's not the first time that GW have got rid of some of their older range on the premise that it's too expensive to store and maintain molds for models that they only sell a couple of times a year.

Which is a shame, but understandable if you have several THOUSAND of them lying around and need the space for a few more thousand that are soon incoming.

[Klose_the_Sith]

I'm looking at the UK site, and I can confirm that all of the "Collectors" categories have been removed from all 40k and Fantasy armies.

As for the IG units, there ARE a lot of Vostroyans on their Troops page (but there's still a decent selection of Catachans and Cadians as well) and they're not under Elites, Fast or Heavy.

Maybe they're clearing out old stock? Or are doing their absolute damnedest to plug the Daemons that are coming out this month. Neither would surprise me, and it's not the first time that GW have got rid of some of their older range on the premise that it's too expensive to store and maintain molds for models that they only sell a couple of times a year.

Which is a shame, but understandable if you have several THOUSAND of them lying around and need the space for a few more thousand that are soon incoming.

Ah, yes - I simply meant the other 'Collectors' legions got kan'd. As in, you can no longer buy several old Imperial Guard types.

The thing I was wondering was if this meant plastic Vostroyans were in the works. If they got rid of all the other legions and then moved Vostroyans out of collectors ...

I guess it'd be a fair price to pay to add a third Guard option, putting a bit more variety on the tables. I'll still miss the silly-legions they just killed, though ...

[crazedloon]

silly-legions

what do you mean silly legions? Back in my day those were THE legions.....

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

what do you mean silly legions? Back in my day those were THE legions.....

*Sigh*

I always wanted to make a full Mordian Iron Guard army.

[banjo1985]

They've got rid of the Mordian Iron Guard?!

*laments*

I've never had an IG force, but the Mordians always looked very spiffy. Maybe GW are just reworking the collectors stuff they're offering?

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

They've got rid of the Mordian Iron Guard?!

*laments*

I've never had an IG force, but the Mordians always looked very spiffy. Maybe GW are just reworking the collectors stuff they're offering?

That was my thought! They always reminded me of 1910 era French army. IN SPAAAACE! with a viiieeew

Edit: Not gonna lie though, the Vostroyans have pretty nice models.

Edit Edit: Buuuut, they're metal. Which would be why they're an extra 5 quid.

[LCP]

I think you've all been bamboozled by a change in the structure of the store, rather than what they're selling.

Go "Warhammer 40,000 -> Warhammer 40,000 Collectors -> Imperial Guard" and they're all still there. They've just been moved out of their respective armies into a 'Collectors' section.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

I think you've all been bamboozled by a change in the structure of the store, rather than what they're selling.

Go "Warhammer 40,000 -> Warhammer 40,000 Collectors -> Imperial Guard" and they're all still there. They've just been moved out of their respective armies into a 'Collectors' section.

Whew. You're right, they are there. Thank's LCP!

[Wraith]

That was my thought! They always reminded me of 1910 era French army. IN SPAAAACE!

I think you would very much like the Praetorian XXIV, if you could ever find them.

[Klose_the_Sith]

I think you've all been bamboozled by a change in the structure of the store, rather than what they're selling.

Go "Warhammer 40,000 -> Warhammer 40,000 Collectors -> Imperial Guard" and they're all still there. They've just been moved out of their respective armies into a 'Collectors' section.

Whew.

Man, that's a relief ...

Although it still begs the question - just what are the Vostroyan's doing outside of the collectors section?

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

I think you would very much like the Praetorian XXIV, if you could ever find them.

Just googled it.

Those... That...

That's awesome. It's like 'Zulu'
IN SPAAACE with a bit less of a view

[hamishspence]

I think I remember seeing the Praetorian diorama at GWHQ Nottingham- way back when there was a "museum" and not just a miniatures hall.

Along with the Battle For the Palace.

Both did indeed look awesome.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Just googled it.

Those... That...

That's awesome. It's like 'Zulu'
IN SPAAACE with a bit less of a view

Yeah, the first white dwarf I ever read had a "small band of praetorians defend a farm sted from a massively outnumbering force of orks" battle report.

It also had two other battle reports and the full 2nd edition necron codex. Those were the days.

[Cristo Meyers]

Yeah, the first white dwarf I ever read had a "small band of praetorians defend a farm sted from a massively outnumbering force of orks" battle report.

I remember that one. I wish they put as much thought into their custom scenarios as they did back then.

It also had two other battle reports and the full 2nd edition necron codex. Those were the days.

I think one of those other battle reports was Necrons vs Sisters and the Necrons completely steamrolled the Sisters. Poor Battle Sister Sledge...

[banjo1985]

I remember that scenario too, back when I played 40k the first time round, it was a fun read! Someone at my gaming club has a full 2000 point force of Praetorians in their red jackets and everything. The effect kind of gets spoilt when he rolls out the Leman Russ's though.

[Wraith]

I remember that one. I wish they put as much thought into their custom scenarios as they did back then.

Lexicanum says that was published in July 1998. I'm virtually certain that I still have that issue kicking around, somewhere. It seems that I NEVER throw anything away!

In other news, I believe that I have 'finished' my Space Marine army (insofar as buying more stuff for it will never get used in a game, though of course that's not to say I WON'T be buying more stuff for it) and am on the lookout for a new project.

MY Eldar are now up to scratch (I actually have some Troops choices that don't cost 400 points each!) and I don't think I could face painting another enormous pile of Orks (a friend asked me to paint up his army for him, and then delivered 2500 points of stuff all in one go ) so.... What's going cheap at the moment? Anyone know of an army that's seriously on the decline and that people are likely to be selling off?

I'm quite tempted to go for a Black Templar army, as I picked up the codex the other day and I have to say they look like fun. Either than or I'll go back to my Daemonhunters and see if I can keep them in a reasonable state, although I'd have a pretty hard time trying to justify MORE yet Space Marines of any kind....

[banjo1985]

...so.... What's going cheap at the moment? Anyone know of an army that's seriously on the decline and that people are likely to be selling off?

From what I've seen on *insert famous auctioning website here* there has been a definite influx of people selling off Necrons, I got an incredible deal on twenty well painted warriors and a lord for less than the price of a warriors box. Maybe people are selling them off in expectancy of the rumoured update and new codex next year? It's a good time to start off a new force cheaply if you like Necrons.

[Wraith]

Hmm, Necrons.... I hadn't even considered them to be honest. Can't say I have ever been fond of them, but I suppose I could check it out

I'm not very convinced that they are going to be the next Codex released, though. I've also heard rumours that Eldar, Dark Eldar, 'The Inquisition' (Daemonhunters, Witch-hunters and Deathwatch all rolled into one), Dark Angels and even White Scars are all intended in the very near future, and most of those are (as far as I know, at least) significantly more popular than Necrons.

You never know, I may yet be proved wrong - my money is on Eldar though, and not just because I've been wanting a new edition for the last 3 years.

[Cheesegear]

I'm not very convinced that they are going to be the next Codex released, though. I've also heard rumours that Eldar, Dark Eldar, 'The Inquisition' (Daemonhunters, Witch-hunters and Deathwatch all rolled into one), Dark Angels and even White Scars are all intended in the very near future, and most of those are (as far as I know, at least) significantly more popular than Necrons.

Dark Eldar, Necrons, Dark Angels and 'Inquisition' are at least semi-confirmed though. 3-ups for some of the above have been seen. Some 'test' rules have been leaked once or twice for the above, and a bunch of concept sketches have been seen.

...The only issue that people are having is when stuff is being released, and in what order, as WHFB just had a massive revision, with various Fantasy ranges getting new models. So, it appears that most 40K plans are on hold until at least the Christmas season or just after. As late July/early August will focus on Isle of Blood, and then after that there'll be new Daemons in the works (no new Codex though).

[Ninja Chocobo]

Right now the smart money's probably on Dark Eldar in October and Grey Knights/Daemonhunters in January. Would fit nicely with the Space Marine -> Non-Space Marine pattern they've had since the release of 5e.

People also think they might be combining the =][= forces into one codex but really I can't see GW making fewer Imperium armies.

[MountainKing]

Lexicanum says that was published in July 1998. I'm virtually certain that I still have that issue kicking around, somewhere. It seems that I NEVER throw anything away!

In other news, I believe that I have 'finished' my Space Marine army (insofar as buying more stuff for it will never get used in a game, though of course that's not to say I WON'T be buying more stuff for it) and am on the lookout for a new project.

MY Eldar are now up to scratch (I actually have some Troops choices that don't cost 400 points each!) and I don't think I could face painting another enormous pile of Orks (a friend asked me to paint up his army for him, and then delivered 2500 points of stuff all in one go ) so.... What's going cheap at the moment? Anyone know of an army that's seriously on the decline and that people are likely to be selling off?

I'm quite tempted to go for a Black Templar army, as I picked up the codex the other day and I have to say they look like fun. Either than or I'll go back to my Daemonhunters and see if I can keep them in a reasonable state, although I'd have a pretty hard time trying to justify MORE yet Space Marines of any kind....

From what I've seen, there's a *ton* of Blood Angels stuff on eBay, though, that's probably because that's what everybody is getting into. :P Of course, if you already have SMs, you might not want more of them.