Warhammer 40K Tabletop VII: Common Sense is not RAW.

[hamishspence]

A Rhino works OK with Scout- since in 5E any unit with Scout automatically extends that ability to its transport.

[DaedalusMkV]

Yup, putting them in a Rhino makes Scouts actually worth having.

As to the merits of Posessed, I think they really, really suffer for being in the same codex as Khorne Berzerkers and Plague Marines, which between them cover pretty much everything the Posessed can do except when they roll Power Weapons, and are Troops and less expensive to boot. When they roll that delicious 6 Posessed are amazing, but the rest of the time there's just nothing putting them above those units. Which isn't to say they're awful or a waste of points; just a subpar choice within their own codex. But hell, at least they aren't as bad off as Spawn, Bikers and Havocs. The CSM 'dex has a lot of problems that way, though... It's definitely one of the most poorly internally balanced codexes out there.

[Cheesegear]

Zoanthropes can't outflank, they're not troops.

Then someone cheated against me. I still won though.
Yes. It was the Hive Commander ability for everyone else.

I'm thinking of starting to collect a jetbike-oriented Eldar army. I want to start with my HQ, but I'm wondering; if I try and field a farseer and seer council mounted on jetbikes with singing spears will I get laughed at or yelled at?

Do it. It will be amazing. They're almost on par with Nob Bikers in their broken-ness. However, they're not Nob Bikers since they're not Troops and you gain no real benefit from the Seer Council surviving the whole game.

Whether you get yelled at or not will depend on what the rest of your army is.

x2 Seer Councils of the above sort, and 2 units of minimum Dire Avengers will have people going crazy. Because it's min-maxed all the way. Having an all-Jetbike army though, is slightly different, and is one of the only fair competitive armies...Provided you aren't spending 500+ points each on Jet Councils.

Question is - would referees allow Possessed to use Outflank if they roll up Scouts, in a tournament?

Emphasis mine.
No.

And how about in a slightly more friendly game- would most people say that RAI is that the Possessed should be able to utilize Outflank if they roll Scouts?

No. Not if they've read the rules.

If you decide that "after deployment" for Possessed means "after that unit is deployed, but before the deployment phase ends" then this fixes that.

So, if you change the rules of the game, you can do whatever you want?
...Sounds good to me. ...By which I mean it doesn't.

[One Step Two]

Eldar Jetbike Seer Council:

They dont have a lot of attacks if they go for singing spears though.

Have anyone tried them, or fought against them?

I use them in my Eldar Jetbike army, and the Seer council.

Your average Farseer on Jetbike is about 158 points with the following:
Jetbike, Singing Spear, Spirit Stones, Fortune and Guide.

For another 15 points, Runes of Warding to mess up enemy psykers. (173 Points total now)

Right now, in any small point format game, you're looking at nearly 200 points on one T4, 1 attack, instant death vulnreble guy. What he does have, however, is a 4+ invulnreble save which you can make re-rollable. Stick him with a unit of Shining spears, and you've got yourself a devastating tough unit breaker. Fortune for your re-rollable 3+ save and able to re-roll missed hits.

The actual seer council itself? You need a minimum of 3 warlocks on jetbikes, I like to give them all singing spears for more oomph, thats 174 points all told giving them Embolden, Enhance and Destructor powers. This unit with the Farseer is about 350 points, it's a heavy investment for a single unit at any points value, but giving them fortune makes the unit a tough cookie.

As for tactics, it breaks down as a matter of target priority, with singing spears you become the ultimate tank buster, 4 S9 attacks that can be re-rolled, and if they can follow up with a charge thats 8 more S9 attacks (vs tanks).

Against high save opponents, wounding on a 2+ is no-where near enough because they can still take those awesome saves, the best you can hope to do if you are going to charge an enemy unit is to soften them up with the destructor power and shuriken peppering before the charge to stem what retribution you recieve. Re-rolling saves can only save your rear end so many times before the dice rolls decide to be nothing but one's and twos.

If you are dead-set on making the Seer council cause pain in assault, you will want to add an Autarch with a Power sword or Laser Lance, his ability to deliver upto 6 attacks in a single round can more than make up for whatever the rest of the council lacks, especially with the buffs they put up.


The most vital role you will find for the seer council is the hate soaking. People who don't know enough to simply bog them down in close combat will shoot everything they can at them, which will bounce off of a re-rollable 4+ invulnreble save, assuming they get past the lovely 3+ armour.

As someone before me mentioned point for point they may not stack up as well against the wraithlord because the seer council is so much more costly for mostly the same effect. Their main advantage over the wraithlord is the ability to turbo boost and the overall maneuverability of a jetbike, 12" movement, and a 6" extra during the assault phase to play keep away is good fun.


TL;DR version: The Seer Council Expensive but tough, hunt tanks primarily. Use an autarch with them to hurt heavy infantry.

[Lycan 01]

How does Experience work? I've seen it mentioned in older Codexes, but I don't see anything about it in my rulebook...

[Incomp]

Last time I checked (which wasn't really ever) experience doesn't exist anymore. There are sort-of rules in the back of the rulebook on veteran status for your units over campaigns, which might be sorta what you're looking for.

[Cheesegear]

How does Experience work? I've seen it mentioned in older Codexes, but I don't see anything about it in my rulebook...

Experience is in the BBB, not the AoBR rulebook. That's probably why you can't find it. And, even then, 5th Ed. doesn't have experience anymore, it just has "Do you think this unit did well? Give them a special rule."

If your squad is reduced to less than 50%, it loses one 'veteran ability'. If it gets wiped out, it loses two. Which is a dumb system since if everyone dies, surely you'd have to pull out a brand new unit, right?

[Klose_the_Sith]

Experience is in the BBB, not the AoBR rulebook. That's probably why you can't find it. And, even then, 5th Ed. doesn't have experience anymore, it just has "Do you think this unit did well? Give them a special rule."

If your squad is reduced to less than 50%, it loses one 'veteran ability'. If it gets wiped out, it loses two. Which is a dumb system since if everyone dies, surely you'd have to pull out a brand new unit, right?

If they've made an exceptional example of themselves then the next squad would still be able to make use of how the dead squad handled in battle. However they'd only be able to make a limited analysis so they'll be but a shadow of those who fell.

...

Or at least that's my interpretation. One could also point out that losing your final wound =/= physically dead by necessity, just means in some way eliminated from the battle (limbs blown/hacked off, bludgeoned into unconsciousness, taken prisoner etc.).

[Wraith]

...It's kind of annoying. One of the reasons I hate playing against two players. And in 2v2, it's usually the same sort of thinking that makes one of the other players think that we're 'ganging up on them' or something.

Clearly these people do not understand "tactics" or "priorities". Their opinions are therefore moot, so feel free to ignore them

I thought pointwise the wraithlord was still the best thing Eldars have?

At an equal points cost, Wraithlord are probably one of the best units in the game - no where else will you get anything as good or flexible for about 120 points.

Seer Council Bikers are just one of the best units period. Very few armies can field a unit that is as impressively powerful as them for ANY points cost (although Grey Knight Terminators led by an Allied Captain Shrike is probably a strong contender....)

Eldar, generally speaking, can field two or three of the single best units in the game all in the same army. Unfortunately, they seem to be let down by everything else that you have to take too.

In other news, I finally got around to counting up the Iron Hands/Thousand Sons army that I was thinking about. Turns out that there isn't a single Loyalist model I have that I couldn't also use in a Chaos Space Marine army, so if nothing else I've learned that everyone else who thinks that their lists are becoming a little stale, take a look through their collections and see if they can write up a whole new army for 'free'. You might be pleasantly surprised.

Spoiler

Show

HQ: Daemon Prince
+ Mark of Tzeench, Doombolt, Warptime, Wings
(Actually a Forge World Venerable Dreadnought that I bought on the cheap from eBay. I have to say, a Plasma Cannon makes a stunningly impressive representative for the Doombolt 'attack'!
This guy's objective is to run around on his own and cause as much damage as possible - there's very little that he couldn't pull apart if he got the chance, so I'll be using him as a 'troubleshooter')

HQ: Chaos Sorcerer
+ Mark of Tzeench, Wind of Chaos, Bolt of Change, Melta Bombs
(My Librarian, who will lead the Chosen as a Spearhead unit; suitably tooled up, between them they should be able to take on my opponent's toughest unit and succeed. Slightly suicidal, but potentially lots of fun.
I'm aware that it's a bit redundant to give the Sorcerer Melta Bombs AND the Chosen Meltaguns, but I had 5 points spare and nothing else seemed worthwhile. Suggestions on a Post Card...?)

ELITE: 8x Chosen of Chaos - 126
+ Icon of Tzeench, 3x Meltaguns, Chaos Rhino, Extra Amour, Havoc Launcher
(My Sternguard models, riding around in a Razorback. My Havoc Launchers are actually twin-linked lascannons, but I think it looks fun. Quite an expensive transport, but given the theme of the army it seems sensible to pay the cost for Extra Amour so as to ensure that my units get into range as quickly as possible.)

TROOP - 10x Thousand Sons
+ Sorcerer, Doombolt, Chaos Rhino, Extra Amour, Havoc Launcher
(At just over 350 points per unit, I'm wary that the Thousand Sons are depressingly valuable. Still, I usually play a Wraith-Eldar army so the novelty of being able to shoot at something more than once per game will probably make up for it!)

TROOP - 10x Thousand Sons
+ Sorcerer, Doombolt, Chaos Rhino, Extra Amour, Havoc Launcher
(Again with the beef'd up Rhino. Expensive, but even more so than the Chosen the Thousand Sons need a reliable way of getting closer to the enemy so I'm willing to take the hit. Besides, it's fluffy - the Iron Hands love Razorbacks, having at least 4 of them seems honourable to that.)

TROOP - 10x Thousand Sons
+ Sorcerer, Doombolt, Chaos Rhino, Extra Amour, Havoc Launcher
(I almost forget to mention, these units are just 9 Tactical Marines led by their Sergeant. While I could dig out some more Librarian models if I wanted to, I think it's funny to have a humble Chainsword representing a force weapon - on a 'critical hit', a 4ft fusion-powered chainsaw is finally doing damage appropriate to what it sounds like it should! )

HEAVY - Chaos Vindicator
+ Daemonic Possession
HEAVY - Chaos Vindicator
+ Daemonic Possession
(Nothing much to say about this, I think. I intend to use them as mostly static artillery, so Daemonic Possession ensures that they keep firing even if they can't move. -1BS is a small price to pay for reliability, particularly when the rest of my army will be spending the first turn (or two) trapped inside a Tank and unable to shoot at much.)

TOTAL: 2000 points exactly!

TL;DR? I have a 'free army', and though it'd get annihilated in short order by a dedicated anti-tank army I think it'd give anything else a good run for it's money.

[Cheesegear]

Clearly these people do not understand "tactics" or "priorities". Their opinions are therefore moot, so feel free to ignore them

That's what I kept saying.
"Hey, I can shoot the Vindicator at the Terminators that you just Deep Struck in my deployment zone, or I can drive up the field some more and hit IG Infantry with it, which can be killed a lot more efficiently with Bolters..."

Very few armies can field a unit that is as impressively powerful as them for ANY points cost (although Grey Knight Terminators led by an Allied Captain Shrike is probably a strong contender....)

Uhh...GKTs don't have Combat Tactics, and therefore don't have Fleet. And four-five Lightning Claw attacks don't really bring much to the table when you're already a unit with ~10, S6 Power Weapon attacks at WS5.

I think Lysander makes the unit a brick s*house, and Lysander allows them to re-roll their Storm Bolters.
A Chaplain might be helpful. But, at WS5, they don't really need the re-rolls to hit, and GKs are already Fearless.

Eldar, generally speaking, can field two or three of the single best units in the game all in the same army. Unfortunately, they seem to be let down by everything else that you have to take too.

Three?
Jet Councils, Wraithlords and...??? Autarch with Shining Spears? Although the Autarch takes a Jet Council slot. D-Cannons take the Wraithlord slot.
Fire Dragons? Wraith-Troops with Conceal?

[Wraith]

I think Lysander makes the unit a brick s*house, and Lysander allows them to re-roll their Storm Bolters.

Ah, thank you. For some reason, I had Shrike in my mind and mixed the two up.

Three?
Jet Councils, Wraithlords and...??? Autarch with Shining Spears? Although the Autarch takes a Jet Council slot. D-Cannons take the Wraithlord slot.
Fire Dragons? Wraith-Troops with Conceal?

I personally consider Wave Serpents to be one the best Dedicated Transport in the game, though I respect that other people may disagree if you want to consider Drop-Pods in the same category.

[Cheesegear]

I personally consider Wave Serpents to be one the best Dedicated Transport in the game, though I respect that other people may disagree if you want to consider Drop-Pods in the same category.

Wave Serpents are the best Transport in the game. Tau Devilfish are a close second. BA (Fast) Razorbacks third.

Drop Pods are not - in themselves - a good Transport. Likewise with Dark Eldar Raiders. It's the units inside the Transports that are good.

[crazedloon]

Likewise with Dark Eldar Raiders.

psh I would trade my raiders for Ork Trukks any day. Just the number of points saved would be worth the loss of skimmer, 6 inches and a dark lance.

And similarly I would have to disagree with the claim that the serpent is the best transport (same goes for the devil fish)

In a void of just transports I would agree with you however each transport has to be compared with the armies they come with and other factor like points. And Serpents/Fish IMHO fall flat.

Serpent:
-lack firing points so your troops need to disembark to fire putting them at greater risk (and thus negating the fact that the serpent is indeed one of the hardest transports to kill)
-isn't open topped so all the combat specialists in the eldar army can not move, deploy, assault. Meaning you are vulnerable for a turn. If you don't get out your vehicle will just get popped before the unit inside is hit (this fortunately does "play to the serpents strength" since they are hard to kill but not nearly hard enough to warrant this weakness IMHO)
-cost more than 3x the cost of most other transports

-The only really good boon is the hard too kill aspect and skimmer/tank

fish
-lack firing points, like the serpent your warriors are squishy you want to keep them in a vehicle as long as you can but in a vehicle they do nothing so in order to use them you have to get out and your die to fire
-price once again is a limiting factor on this guy

-boon really is the disruption pod which makes it hard to kill. The problem is if you stay at pod range than your unit inside is doing nothing or you have no unit inside and the points for the fish could have potentially been better spent.

Of course the problem is that if you are not a mobile force (which tends to require transports) you will most likely loose and thus these armies have to suck up subpar transports

of course everything I have said is opinion so feel free to disagree.

[Cheesegear]

The only really good boon is the hard too kill aspect and skimmer/tank

You might just be underestimating those two abilities. Because being really hard to kill and being a Skimmer-Tank makes it the best Transport. Because, clearly, you want really easy-to-kill, slow-moving Transports that get blocked by Terrain when you try to move up the field, right?

The other thing going for it, is that it has sweet guns. I like Eldar Missile Launchers being Defensive weapons and causing Pinning at the same time.

Fire Points are kind of irrelevant since Eldar don't really have anything that can make good use out of it. Unlike a Space Marine Rhino that can sit at the back of the board firing a Missile Launcher all day long.

As for the Devilfish, again, it's a Skimmer-Tank. Which makes it more amazing than you give it credit for. And it's ability to rapidly put Fire Warriors in Rapid Fire range is nothing short of awesome.

Points costs are largely irrelevant because the tanks are that good.

[Wraith]

Drop Pods are not - in themselves - a good Transport. Likewise with Dark Eldar Raiders. It's the units inside the Transports that are good.

I wouldn't say they are that low down in the ranking.
It gets a Squad of 12 models anywhere on the board quite reliably, and in the first turn - very few things in the game can promise the same, Transports least of all. In that respect, at least, they're probably in the top 5 even if their other limitations drag them down a bit.

Serpent:
-lack firing points so your troops need to disembark to fire putting them at greater risk (and thus negating the fact that the serpent is indeed one of the hardest transports to kill)
-isn't open topped so all the combat specialists in the eldar army can not move, deploy, assault. Meaning you are vulnerable for a turn. If you don't get out your vehicle will just get popped before the unit inside is hit (this fortunately does "play to the serpents strength" since they are hard to kill but not nearly hard enough to warrant this weakness IMHO)
-cost more than 3x the cost of most other transports

-The only really good boon is the hard too kill aspect and skimmer/tank

Reasonable points, but not necessarily as bad as you make out, I think.

Wave Serpents, for example, have 2 Heavy Weapons (or, more usually, one Heavy and one Assault). They don't need firing points like other vehicles do, they already double up as a viable offensive units in and of themselves.
Similarly, Eldar generally don't have weapons that make firing points useful anyway. Granted, Guardians can take a missile launcher or a Bright Lance if you like, but everyone else isn't worth the effort. A single Shuriken Catapult or Sniper Rifle? Hardly a big loss. A Wraithcannon or Fusion Gun? If you're close enough to use one before the owner has disembarked, I would argue that you're doing something wrong

Not being open-topped is a reasonable criticism, however I could just as easily use it as an advantage. Eldar Tanks, without their holofield and movement bonus, are pretty fragile and the last thing I'd want them to do is count as essentially having -1AV.
Swings and roundabouts, least of all because there is only 2 units that really needs open-topped (Banshees and Seer Council) whereas everything else has it's own way of getting about (Scorpions can Infiltrate) safely (Harlequins have their Veil) and everything else doesn't particularly want to jump out into Assault anyway (Wraithguard, Fire Dragons, Dire Avengers).

As for 3x the cost of the equivalent units in other armies? I am happy to pay it, knowing that what I am getting is worth that value.

[MountainKing]

I like how all of my dumb questions get asked while I'm at work, away from my codices, but does Fleet make it so that you can still fire Heavy Weapons after disembarking? Or is it *just* getting to Shoot and Run?

[Cheesegear]

does Fleet make it so that you can still fire Heavy Weapons after disembarking? Or is it *just* getting to Shoot and Run?

It's neither of those things. It's Run and Assault. No shooting at all. Because you're Running.

[Wraith]

I like how all of my dumb questions get asked while I'm at work, away from my codices...

There's no such thing (Apart, possibly, from "Why do I have to rewrite my Comp: 0 army?" or "What's so bad about 3 Monolith in 1500 points anyway?"). If you need to know something, asking is the best way to get an answer

....but does Fleet make it so that you can still fire Heavy Weapons after disembarking? Or is it *just* getting to Shoot and Run?

That would be Relentless, received courtesy of Terminator Armour. The latter, however, never happens.

[Cheesegear]

[Running and Shooting], however, never happens.

A Tervigon uses Onslaught. Then waves to Wraith. While attacking a unit of Space Marines with 3+ armour save and Fleet as well.

[MountainKing]

I don't want to keep bugging you guys, but what does Fleet do, if it doesn't let you run in the Assault phase even after shooting in the Shoot phase? Isn't that it?

[Wraith]

A Tervigon uses Onslaught. Then waves to Wraith. While attacking a unit of Space Marines with 3+ armour save and Fleet as well.

Wow. I mean, the first time I was wrong I knew I might be, because it was just a generalisation. That one, however, genuinely surprises me.

Then again, I'm old-fashioned, so expecting Tyranids to shoot at all is somewhat beyond me

I don't want to keep bugging you guys, but what does Fleet do, if it doesn't let you run in the Assault phase even after shooting in the Shoot phase? Isn't that it?

All units are allowed to make a 'Run' move (+d6") instead of shooting.
If they Run, they then cannot also Assault.
Being Fleet negates this, allowing them to Run (still instead of shooting) AND then Assault in the Assault phase.

[Ninja Chocobo]

Three?
Fire Dragons?

Ayup.

psh I would trade my raiders for Ork Trukks any day. Just the number of points saved would be worth the loss of skimmer, 6 inches and a dark lance.

Wha?
20 points for a BS3 Dark Lance and a Fast Skimmer? I'd pay that any day of the week!
Hell, I'd pay 55 points for a Fast BS3 Dark Lance on its own. The transport capacity is just gravy.

I don't want to keep bugging you guys, but what does Fleet do, if it doesn't let you run in the Assault phase even after shooting in the Shoot phase? Isn't that it?

In the Shooting phase, you can elect to Run, which lets you move an extra d6". You cannot shoot, or Assault in the ensuing Assault phase if you Run.
If you have the Fleet of Foot special rule, you can Assault if you have elected to Run in the Shooting phase.

Say, did any Ork players know you can declare a Waaagh! after rolling Running for your squads? It's true!

[MountainKing]

Wha?
20 points for a BS3 Dark Lance and a Fast Skimmer? I'd pay that any day of the week!
Hell, I'd pay 55 points for a Fast BS3 Dark Lance on its own. The transport capacity is just gravy.

I haven't done it yet, but I still want to play a DE army that focuses on Raiders, using hooks and that other upgrade that lets you tank shock. I still think that'll be crazy fun.

[Arcanoi]

I haven't done it yet, but I still want to play a DE army that focuses on Raiders, using hooks and that other upgrade that lets you tank shock. I still think that'll be crazy fun.

And theme them like Reavers from Firefly. It will be wonderful.

[Cheesegear]

I haven't done it yet, but I still want to play a DE army that focuses on Raiders...

And theme them like Reavers from Firefly. It will be wonderful.

Tabled on Turn 2. Dark Eldar Wych Cult is one of most powerful armies anyone can possibly play. The 1750 version of that list has more Ravagers, more Wyches and Raiders with Lances and more Haywire Grenades.

[Tren]

Wha?
20 points for a BS3 Dark Lance and a Fast Skimmer? I'd pay that any day of the week!
Hell, I'd pay 55 points for a Fast BS3 Dark Lance on its own. The transport capacity is just gravy.

BS4 actually. Yeah. It's that awesome. Plus it's one of the few good looking models in the current range.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

Tabled on Turn 2. Dark Eldar Wych Cult is one of most powerful armies anyone can possibly play. The 1750 version of that list has more Ravagers, more Wyches and Raiders with Lances and more Haywire Grenades.

And that's not the first time you were destroyed by Wych Cult's, eh? That old tourney you wrote up a while ago, I remember that.

[MountainKing]

Tabled on Turn 2. Dark Eldar Wych Cult is one of most powerful armies anyone can possibly play. The 1750 version of that list has more Ravagers, more Wyches and Raiders with Lances and more Haywire Grenades.

While yes, that list is brutal, I don't think it's quite what I'm looking to do, which is to use the speed of the Raider to shock through infantry formations to score some free wounds before I worry about Assault of any kind.

Unless, that's exactly what your opponent did, in wych case that's exactly what I'm looking for.

[hamishspence]

Maybe, like with Mawlocs, Possessed should get errata/FAQ.

In this case, stating they roll at the start of the game, before the deployment phase ends.

Just as "Mawlocs can't deep-strike under units by RAW" made no sense in the context of the game- and was fixed in the FAQ.

In the same way, Possessed, in Reserve, with Scouts, being unable to make use of outflank, seems a bit odd.

[Cheesegear]

And that's not the first time you were destroyed by Wych Cult's, eh? That old tourney you wrote up a while ago, I remember that.

Well spotted!
It was the same guy.