The 3.5 Red Hand Of Doom Handbook for DMs [Major spoilers!] - WIP, PEACH!

[Saintheart]

@Elder_Basilisk, I didn't formally thank you for doing that wonderful work on the Greyhawk conversion - so here it is. I know it takes a lot of time to go through your thinking and step it out for people, so it's very much appreciated.

And now: a short essay on Victory Points.

We all know that the VP total for RHOD is very generous to players: 74 VP are made available (12 points of it being made available twice since escaped Red Hand leaders show up again at the Battle of Brindol) and the PCs are required to get 40 VP, of which they can net nearly a quarter (8 points) "just" by killing Kharn in the final battle.

The thing about the VP total is that it's binary: if you hit 40 VP and kill Kharn, you win the Battle of Brindol. If you don't, you lose. On reflection I also think the VP thing may be a little bit ... well ... redundant because unless you're focused on it, your players may not get a sense of how their actions are affecting the war and how things would have gone had they not intervened.

In the early parts of the campaign, and with several notable events, the effect is clear and the players can easily intuit that they've made some difference. Destroy Skull Gorge Bridge, the Hand is going to be clearly put back several days while they find a way around. Take out Rhest, you've got a clear alliance with the Tiri Kitor to buttress Brindol's forces and Saarvith can tell them how they've stopped greenspawn raxorfiends from joining the assault on Brindol. To some extent, break the Ghostlord alliance is also clear: deal with him, and the Hand won't have undead to draw on at Brindol. But other tasks -- dealing with Miha Serani, allying up with Warklegnaw so the Twistusks join the fight, and so on -- are not quite as apparent on what they do for the war effort unless you lay it out for the players. They don't have the benefit of your Heisenbergian vision as DM. They can't see the VP total, and they can't see the various ways things could have turned out had they opted for X rather than Y. They can only see the events that happen to the characters as they happen; unlike a video game such as Mass Effect 3, there's no replay option, no way for them to see how badly it could have gone without their intervention. It takes a lot of care to smoothly insert suggestions about what could have happened without it being really obvious. "Phew! I'm so glad you band of adventurers managed to stop the giants taking down the wall, we've never have been able to hold that section of the city if you didn't! We'd never have been able to coordinate our defence otherwise!"

One way of dealing with this, perhaps, is to keep the VP count entirely secret and then openly break the fourth wall after Kharn goes down for one moment, massaging the threat to suspension of disbelief by bringing on real-life suspense and telling one white lie to your players.

When Kharn goes down, you suddenly announce to the players that, per RHOD's rules, you've been keeping a careful track of what they've been up to during the campaign and that it affects . Some of their actions add to a VP total, some of their actions take away from it, some actions you could get more or less VPs based on how they did. You tell them they have to hit a certain amount of VP. What number? In short: if they've got less than 40 points, it's 40 VP. If they've got more then 40 VP, the number you tell them they have to hit is the number of VP they accumulated, minus one.

Then, you openly count up the VP they've accumulated. In front of them (no, not with the RHOD book open in front of them ). Slowly. Lovingly. One incident after another. You recall their awesome moments in the campaign. You tell them what effect each event had on the war. You sigh over imaginary VP that they missed. And, at the highpoint of the count, toting up the points they earn in the final battle, when you've got them on the edge of their seats and knowing they're 7 points away from the total they have to hit ... you tell them Kharn is worth 8. Where the result of a count is binary -- you win or lose depending on hitting a particular number -- the greatest tension and the greatest payoff of that count is always in meeting that number and just passing it; because the count is binary, there's no real tension or satisfaction to be generated from beating the number by 20 or 30 VP or more. You might think you're shifting the goalposts, but in reality, you're not. You never, never do this to autofail the players. As said, if they pass 40 VP, they've won, and this tactic does not change that result. If they don't pass 40 VP, then per RHOD itself they failed and no shifting of goalposts should change that result.

The other possibility I was musing over was a sort of reverse to this proposition, which is about providing players levels of victory.

I'm more hesitant on this one because again it breaks suspension of disbelief and invites your players back behind the DM's screen to some extent, where they generally should never be. But if you want to provide players with some satisfaction for getting past the 40 VP victory line, I think grades of victory is a good way to do it. In particular if the players are invested in Elsir Vale and seem enthusiastic to start going down a nation-building path in the way of the Kingmaker storyline this is a pretty nice way to show them how they set their own foundations for their own rise to power. For example, a 'flawless victory', i.e. 70+ VP, results in a complete destruction of the hobgoblin presence in the Wyrmsmokes and the players awarded fiat over Rhest and its surrounds with full freedom to develop it as they wish. A lesser victory and they only get Vraath Keep and still have to clean out hobgoblin marauders in the Witchwood, and so on.

I think Elder_Basilisk already did a pretty comprehensive set of consequences for differing success levels in Greyhawk, but I think over time I might try and sketch out something similar and/or more generic for insertion.

Any thoughts?

[Antariuk]

That's an interesting proposal, Saintheart.

The thing about the VP total is that it's binary: if you hit 40 VP and kill Kharn, you win the Battle of Brindol. If you don't, you lose. On reflection I also think the VP thing may be a little bit ... well ... redundant because unless you're focused on it, your players may not get a sense of how their actions are affecting the war and how things would have gone had they not intervened.

This, so very much this. VPs in RHoD are presented as a DM-only boardgame mechanism that reads clever and seems to help managing the campaign, but in the end they actually do very little and remain a behind-the-scenes feature that the DM can read and amuse himself about and little else. You can replace it with a small chart of checkboxes or change VPs so that the target number is 10 (or any other arbitrary number you fancy) and lose nothing in the process.

For example, a 'flawless victory', i.e. 70+ VP, results in a complete destruction of the hobgoblin presence in the Wyrmsmokes and the players awarded fiat over Rhest and its surrounds with full freedom to develop it as they wish. A lesser victory and they only get Vraath Keep and still have to clean out hobgoblin marauders in the Witchwood, and so on.

Not a bad idea, but unless you disclose beforehand that these options and rewards are available, you run into the very problem you described above: suddenly there are VP and conditions and noboy knew about that. Granted, now it's more gradually and there is space between "You win!" and "You fail!", but I see little use in making mechanics for stuff like handing out the deed for Rhest when there is no tangible benefit in doing so (say, save time or ease up a confusing calculation). Having said that, foreshadowing rewards like the above shouldn't be too hard ("If it weren't for the damn hob's, Lord Jarneth would've probably stationed someone there long time ago."), so it's probably not a bad idea after all ;)

Now, if you keep VPs, I think the idea of 'levels of victory' should absolutely be included, and maybe if the PCs overcame challenges above their expected level. For example, did they wipe out the Rhest encounter before doing Skullgorge Bridge? If so, award extra rewards. Or if they were - from their point of view - clever and did things like arrange for some Tiri Kitor elves to hide in the southern borders of the Witchwood and harrass the Red Hand during their march on Brindol. Broad conditions for extra VPs are key here since you will never account for all possible ways to go above or beyond RHoD's standard solutions.

[Talesin]

I'll talk about VPs before I post the next little bit of my campaign.

The thing about the VP total is that it's binary: if you hit 40 VP and kill Kharn, you win the Battle of Brindol.

I hadn't really considered it but the binary nature of the VPs does seem a little irritating now I think about it. However I guess there is a point where realistically the horde just can't take anymore and would fade away into nothing.

An interesting idea I had is to increase the VP "win/loss" total by the amount of VPs rewarded by the amount next available living commander is worth. This shows that if Kharn is killed then his next lieutenant would take over and continue the assault but if you've done overwhelming damage to the horde then they aren't in a position to follow Saarvith into battle.

I can't remember the totals off the top of my head but as an example if they haven't killed Koth then they need to beat 42VP (assuming he's worth 2) once they've killed Kharn (with Kharn still counting as 8VP). If they can't beat 42 then Koth rallies the troops and finishes what Kharn started, if they do he can't pull the horde together and they flee for the hills.

This does mean the Wyrmlords are worth more, indirectly, but I don't see why a stronger leader couldn't pull the horde together more easily.

But other tasks -- dealing with Miha Serani, allying up with Warklegnaw so the Twistusks join the fight, and so on -- are not quite as apparent on what they do for the war effort unless you lay it out for the players. They don't have the benefit of your Heisenbergian vision as DM.

My group got quite attached to old Warklegnaw so i'm going to have them meet up with a beaten and battered Jorr in Brindol, who's even grumpier than usual due to losing 'his woods' to the hobbo menace, who will talk about what the forest giant did.

I'm not sure about some of the other little parts. I've been dropping some 'hints' in terms of "well killing these eggs will stop the hatchlings from being used by the hand"

When Kharn goes down, you suddenly announce to the players that, per RHOD's rules, you've been keeping a careful track of what they've been up to during the campaign and that it affects .

I actually really really like this idea and I think i'll trial it out on my group. Tell them what they did well and what they missed.


Next Session of my campaign - Razorfiend
We left last time with them resting on one of the roadblocks. They dismantled it the next day and set off towards Rhest, well towards Saarvith on the map they got from Koth, reasoning that there's a reason he's on the map and they're up here already.

The Razorfiend encounter I ran from the book but used the upgunned razorfiend from the original post and I can safely say it was a huge success. My group HATED the Razorfiend, to the point where they were so glad it went down. In the surprised round it pounced and full attacked, spreading it's attacks between the barbarian and the ranger. Then it breathed on it's next go, hitting 4 party members before 5 foot stepping. The ranger full attacked from inside it's threatened area and got crit from it's attack of opportunity.

The hail of attacks from the party dropped it low but allowed it to get a second full attack off almost dropping the barbarian and fighter (I spread the attacks out to not just 1 shot someone) before being dragged down the next round.

They required a lot of healing and the elves turning up spooked most of them to the point where I was a little worried they were just going to open fire.

Elves

The initial discussion with the Elves went well and they offered the jade band to Killiar. After the 2 hour journey back discussion turned to how the Elves were in trouble and needed to help against the Red Hand. This led them to Rhest but not after the Rogue tried to perform at the funeral of the dead elf. Untrained. And he rolled a 1.

Trying to think of a suitable 'punishment' before next session for this but I might just let it slide.

Rhest

The trip to Rhest was uneventful and once seeing the lake the cleric quickly jumped on the water breathing bandwagon and they settled in for the night. They got to see Regi and Saarvith go out hunting and quickly assaulted the town hall.

They dispatched the Ogres on the low ground quickly and the moved up to attack the remainder. I had a Hobbo open the door to the Razorfiend encounter and get killed (all they heard was a bloodcurdling scream) before the razorfiend attacked the next round.

The whole party caked their pants at this point though the Razorfiend actually went down in a single round due to focus fire.

I wish i'd brought Regi and Saarvith back at this point because it took the group a few rounds to mop up the Ettin, Ogre and bard (though the bard actually escaped invisible).


Regi and Saarvith
I had them return once they'd finished looting the building and while this provided an 'ok' encounter I had rebuilt Saarvith into a control druid who goes into ape form to fight people. This would've been a lot more useful as part of the previous fight.

Regi did a strafing breath attack hitting all of the group (I gave him widen breath for this) and dropped Saarvith off who casted entangle before jumping from the dragon's back. Sadly they all succeeded in the various checks and the entangle didn't do a vast amount.

Regi's second and third breath hit a few people while Saarvith was fighting in ape form. Bramble Armour, Plant Domain special power doing 1d8+druid level in damage to anyone who melees the druid, caused problems for the fighters who saw their diminishing health pools from the dragon and reflective damage as a real problem.

(This is the first campaign my group has ever played it, well second if you include the 1-5 adventure, so they tend to panic a lot earlier than more experienced players especially against newer mechanics and concepts. It's fun though because I do keep pointing out how 'in over their heads' these small town folks are and how it is reflected in how they are experiencing the game.)

They killed Saarvith out right, pathfinder 2h fighters do a lot of damage on a full attack, so there's no finding out why he was here and Regi went into the lake as he tried to fly away and they didn't seem to want to go and stabilize him.



They're off to see the Elves again in the next session. I would say the plant druid worked really well in terms of only have 2 targets for 5 party members to target but he still only lasted 3 rounds so got off a single full attack and 2 spells, both of which were resisted.

If I ran it again i'd have cast a few more spells from Regi's back to maybe try and drive them inside before coming down in ape form. This would allow more time for the lizardfolk to turn up and that would provide a few more mooks to get in the way/take some hits for the bigger characters.

Overall my group, and myself, are loving this campaign and this handbook gives some great ideas/tweaks to increase the entertainment value.

[Saintheart]

Not a bad idea, but unless you disclose beforehand that these options and rewards are available, you run into the very problem you described above: suddenly there are VP and conditions and noboy knew about that. Granted, now it's more gradually and there is space between "You win!" and "You fail!", but I see little use in making mechanics for stuff like handing out the deed for Rhest when there is no tangible benefit in doing so (say, save time or ease up a confusing calculation). Having said that, foreshadowing rewards like the above shouldn't be too hard ("If it weren't for the damn hob's, Lord Jarneth would've probably stationed someone there long time ago."), so it's probably not a bad idea after all ;)

Now, if you keep VPs, I think the idea of 'levels of victory' should absolutely be included, and maybe if the PCs overcame challenges above their expected level. For example, did they wipe out the Rhest encounter before doing Skullgorge Bridge? If so, award extra rewards. Or if they were - from their point of view - clever and did things like arrange for some Tiri Kitor elves to hide in the southern borders of the Witchwood and harrass the Red Hand during their march on Brindol. Broad conditions for extra VPs are key here since you will never account for all possible ways to go above or beyond RHoD's standard solutions.

I agree - I was running out of steam by the end of that post, and those are good suggestions. Continuing thinking aloud here...

The trick seems to me, how do you insert VPs into the campaign? If you openly say to the players at the start or even during the campaign that there's 74 VP possible, and X benefit accrues due to accumulating Y points, and 40 VP is all that's required to stop the Red Hand at Brindol, then the moment they cross the 40 VP line all tension in keeping score disappears; at that point they're just playing for bigger benefits post-campaign, "hundred percent completion" style, when to me the main focus of the campaign should be stopping the Hand.

Maybe if you word it a bit more subtly -- "Assuming you can find some way to stop the Red Hand prior to or at Brindol's walls, 40 VP makes your victory there stick." But then that's revealing a pretty big spoiler; how does one set out a series of benefits at the start of the campaign without horribly breaking suspension of disbelief or revealing crucial plot information.

Here's another thought: maybe if one doesn't make the VPs automatic indicators of levels of victory or indicators of consequences but rather a resource to be spent post-campaign, with certain conditions requiring the players to spend hard-earned VPs accumulated by the end. One would have to come up with a pretty diverse set of rewards or post-game perks, things that players might actually want, for this to work, but this might actually be a better way of using VPs generally. You can still use them as a binary win/lose indicator.

I recognise this would have a double benefit since XP and gold is kinda meant to be for these functions anyway, but maybe if you specify at the start of the campaign something like "50 VP means you get a nice private holding (i.e. Vraath Keep), 25 VP means you get a nice house (Jorr's hut in the Witchwood, maybe)" or stuff along those lines, VP might be a more useful thing to provide.

An interesting idea I had is to increase the VP "win/loss" total by the amount of VPs rewarded by the amount next available living commander is worth. This shows that if Kharn is killed then his next lieutenant would take over and continue the assault but if you've done overwhelming damage to the horde then they aren't in a position to follow Saarvith into battle.

I can't remember the totals off the top of my head but as an example if they haven't killed Koth then they need to beat 42VP (assuming he's worth 2) once they've killed Kharn (with Kharn still counting as 8VP). If they beat 42 then Koth rallies the troops and finishes what Kharn started, if they don't he can't pull the horde together and they flee for the hills.

This does mean the Wyrmlords are worth more, indirectly, but I don't see why a stronger leader couldn't pull the horde together more easily.

Interesting, and a good way to offset the fact Red Hand leaders show up twice at the Battle of Brindol.


[

They required a lot of healing and the elves turning up spooked most of them to the point where I was a little worried they were just going to open fire.

Yeah, given that reaction I'd be careful about how hardcore you play the Ghostlord - there's even more reason for them to shoot first, talk later in that scenario if you're worried about them getting trigger-happy at this stage. Still, nice to know the greenspawn razorfiends work!

Trying to think of a suitable 'punishment' before next session for this but I might just let it slide.

I tend to think either just let it slide or just let it play in mathematically as the RHOD text requires - at least he took a shot at being a kind soul. :)

I had a Hobbo open the door to the Razorfiend encounter and get killed (all they heard was a bloodcurdling scream) before the razorfiend attacked the next round.

The whole party caked their pants at this point though the Razorfiend actually went down in a single round due to focus fire.

This is a brilliant little way to scare the snot out of the PCs - that's one to remember! :)

They killed Saarvith out right, pathfinder 2h fighters do a lot of damage on a full attack, so there's no finding out why he was here and Regi went into the lake as he tried to fly away and they didn't seem to want to go and stabilize him.

Did they wind up smashing the eggs in the razorfiend enclosure? If not, depending on how nasty you want to be with them, you might need to leave a couple more clues around so they go do that. If they don't break them, arguably they've missed the whole point of the mission to Rhest and the Hand still manages to hatch the ones there...

Overall my group, and myself, are loving this campaign and this handbook gives some great ideas/tweaks to increase the entertainment value.

Thanks very much for that - it's taken the work of a lot of good people to keep the thread going this long, but we always like feedback ensuring that the advice given is still relevant and useful.

[Talesin]

The trick seems to me, how do you insert VPs into the campaign? If you openly say to the players at the start or even during the campaign that there's 74 VP possible, and X benefit accrues due to accumulating Y points, and 40 VP is all that's required to stop the Red Hand at Brindol, then the moment they cross the 40 VP line all tension in keeping score disappears; at that point they're just playing for bigger benefits post-campaign, "hundred percent completion" style, when to me the main focus of the campaign should be stopping the Hand.

Personally I wouldn't tell them about the VPs until after the point where the PCs have a chance to earn them. Makes no sense for them to realise they are 1 short and then have an impetus to go kill a dragon quickly so they can be over the tipping point.

Here's another thought: maybe if one doesn't make the VPs automatic indicators of levels of victory or indicators of consequences but rather a resource to be spent post-campaign, with certain conditions requiring the players to spend hard-earned VPs accumulated by the end.

I recognise this would have a double benefit since XP and gold is kinda meant to be for these functions anyway, but maybe if you specify at the start of the campaign something like "50 VP means you get a nice private holding (i.e. Vraath Keep), 25 VP means you get a nice house (Jorr's hut in the Witchwood, maybe)" or stuff along those lines, VP might be a more useful thing to provide.

I think this depends on what you're planning on doing next.

The VPs could potentially be a measure of how well the region is able to rebuild itself after the Red Hand. Obviously the battle was huge and without the PCs the horde would've taken over the whole region but they've managed to forge alliances between the Elves and Brindol, evacuate most of the skilled workers from the smaller towns along the way and potentially show the mercenaries that there is work aplenty now the Red Hand is gone.

Taking a leaf from Baldur's Gate 2, I don't see why statues of the PCs couldn't be built in Brindol if they get past a certain VP threshold.

Yeah, given that reaction I'd be careful about how hardcore you play the Ghostlord - there's even more reason for them to shoot first, talk later in that scenario if you're worried about them getting trigger-happy at this stage. Still, nice to know the greenspawn razorfiends work!

The Ghostlord is going to be interesting. I don't think the group will go for him just because if I don't lay out minis they tend to realise that this isn't a combat encounter. Admittedly i've been moving away from that a little bit by having them use minis to meet Jorr and Old Warklegnaw to show that not every time we use minis it has to be a combat.

Did they wind up smashing the eggs in the razorfiend enclosure? If not, depending on how nasty you want to be with them, you might need to leave a couple more clues around so they go do that. If they don't break them, arguably they've missed the whole point of the mission to Rhest and the Hand still manages to hatch the ones there...

Luckily they put 2 and 2 together there and destroyed all the eggs. They did discuss keeping one and trying to raise it as a pet until I pointed out the remains of their previous keeper sprayed across the room and I think they got the point.

We all work together and I did overhear a "Thank god we smashed those eggs, could you imagine fighting more than one of those things?!" so I think the uber-Razorfiends did exactly what they needed to :)

[Antariuk]

The trick seems to me, how do you insert VPs into the campaign? If you openly say to the players at the start or even during the campaign that there's 74 VP possible, and X benefit accrues due to accumulating Y points, and 40 VP is all that's required to stop the Red Hand at Brindol, then the moment they cross the 40 VP line all tension in keeping score disappears; at that point they're just playing for bigger benefits post-campaign, "hundred percent completion" style, when to me the main focus of the campaign should be stopping the Hand.

Maybe if you word it a bit more subtly -- "Assuming you can find some way to stop the Red Hand prior to or at Brindol's walls, 40 VP makes your victory there stick." But then that's revealing a pretty big spoiler; how does one set out a series of benefits at the start of the campaign without horribly breaking suspension of disbelief or revealing crucial plot information.

Maybe the trick is to just make a vague reference that the adventure keeps track of what the player characters do and that all real decisions they make influence the outcome on some level, the end. You might want to disclose that there's a timeline (but make sure to explain that they don't have to run like madmen all the time), but nothing else.

Here's another thought: maybe if one doesn't make the VPs automatic indicators of levels of victory or indicators of consequences but rather a resource to be spent post-campaign, with certain conditions requiring the players to spend hard-earned VPs accumulated by the end. One would have to come up with a pretty diverse set of rewards or post-game perks, things that players might actually want, for this to work, but this might actually be a better way of using VPs generally. You can still use them as a binary win/lose indicator.

I recognise this would have a double benefit since XP and gold is kinda meant to be for these functions anyway, but maybe if you specify at the start of the campaign something like "50 VP means you get a nice private holding (i.e. Vraath Keep), 25 VP means you get a nice house (Jorr's hut in the Witchwood, maybe)" or stuff along those lines, VP might be a more useful thing to provide.

That's a pretty brilliant idea! If you want RHoD to evolve into a kingdom-building game afterwards, you could directly translate Victory Points into Building Points with a 2:1 or 3:1 ratio, depending on how many VP your modified version hands out (the link refers to Pathfinder's kindom building rules, which should be 100% compatible with 3.5). If you think that coming up with reasons for all these resources to suddenly show up, remember that an army the size of the Red Hand usually carries lots of stuff with it that you can recycle (boulders for fortifications, watchtowers, rams and whatnot; lots of tools and equipment to dig in or cut down trees; and so on).

The VPs could potentially be a measure of how well the region is able to rebuild itself after the Red Hand. Obviously the battle was huge and without the PCs the horde would've taken over the whole region but they've managed to forge alliances between the Elves and Brindol, evacuate most of the skilled workers from the smaller towns along the way and potentially show the mercenaries that there is work aplenty now the Red Hand is gone.

This meshes well with my clumsy attempt of an in-world explanation for the VP = BP translation after the end of RHoD, if you want to take the game in that direction.

We all work together and I did overhear a "Thank god we smashed those eggs, could you imagine fighting more than one of those things?!" so I think the uber-Razorfiends did exactly what they needed to :)

Nicely done! The last time I played the razorfiends didn't really have a chance to hurt our party (mostly due to spectacularly bad rolls on the DM's side and some good tactics on our side) so they became something of a joke.

[Talesin]

Maybe the trick is to just make a vague reference that the adventure keeps track of what the player characters do and that all real decisions they make influence the outcome on some level, the end. You might want to disclose that there's a timeline (but make sure to explain that they don't have to run like madmen all the time), but nothing else.

So far in this campaign i've been leaking little bits of information as i've been going on. They visited Hammerfist Holds last night and I had the Dwarven Mercenaries tell them that the Red Hand had spent a surprisingly long time in the woods around Vraath Keep.

They then brought up that they had destroyed the bridge as well as tried to enlist some help from a forest giant and I was able to leak a bit of information there by saying that the forest giant's used to be fierce fighters so they would have delayed the horde and taking out the bridge meant a few days march upstream to find another crossing.

I've not told them about the VPs yet and I don't think I will bother because, like Saintheart said, they'll just try and jump over the hurdle and then potentially not do anything more to save Brindol. I think it'd break the immersion to say "there is a win condition, you've passed it".

Nicely done! The last time I played the razorfiends didn't really have a chance to hurt our party (mostly due to spectacularly bad rolls on the DM's side and some good tactics on our side) so they became something of a joke.

That's a bit of a shame as they're a good monster. I like that my PCs felt that they've made a real impact on the battle by stopping those things.

Next Session - On their way to the Ghostlord

We left off last time having cleared Rhest. They didn't quite amass enough points to have the elves gift them with the Owls but they were only 1 off so I said that Sellyria would allow them to fly with Killiar on the owls to introduce him and the Elven allies to Brindol. They spent a bit of time researching the Ghostlord in the Elven town, found out a few rumours and what a actually Phylactery was (It's sort've like a Horcrux in Harry Potter).

They arrived in Brindol all ready to head out for the Ghostlord but after speaking with Lord Jarmaath and mentioning the mercenary gold they decide they'll investigate the disappearance of that first and then head down to the Ghostlord. They mess around for a day doing some research and even almost come to blows with the Librarian/Sage as they refused to pay him to use the library. I end up giving in after a while as they agree to help him board up the library so it won't be damaged in the coming battle if he does the research for them for free.

Of course I mention how he doesn't seem to be working too hard because of their pushy manner but they get the information they require.

Talar and the Looters

Honestly this encounter was utterly pointless in terms of combat. They dropped 2 of the looters in the first round, the barbarian got hit for 3 damage before pasting them up the wall in the next round. I definitely should've run away but it left them an interesting dilemma of whether to loot the building but they quickly came to the conclusion that it wasn't a good idea and moved on.

Mercenary Gold

Again in terms of combat this encounter was largely a walk over. 5 Goblins and 2 Ettin can't put up an kind of fight against a party but I did use that to point out how the 4 Brindol guys were taken down relatively easily and that it might be the monsters in this campaign, not necessarily the rank and file hobbos, that were going to cause problems for Brindol.

Approaching the Stone Lion

They spent a fair amount of time looking at the Lion trying to glean any information from range but given there isn't a lot of information and they couldn't roll that well on perception they didn't find much. Sadly they rolled awful stealth rolls on approach to the lion and the monks were easily able to hear them.

They also decided to send the barbarian and the rogue up the side of the lion up to the mouth and then drop a rope down to get in. The Barbarian completed the climb first and I had the monk up there kick him squarely in the face as he poked his head up, giving him a reflex save to avoid it and then a strength check to keep his grip. Sadly he bombed both of them, rolling 4 and 6 respectively, so I had him fall the ~50feet to the ground. That made a mighty amount of noise and I gave them a few rounds to steady themselves before I set Varanthian on them.

I had her squeeze through the door on the surprise round, mentioning how it cracked the wall a little on the way out, and then had her unleash a widened breathe hitting 3 of the party. A full attack, only the bite on the barbarian though, meant he was grappled and then swallowed the round after. The party did a lot of damage to Varanthian and the barbarian actually managed to kill her from inside the stomach but then fell to the acid damage in the following round.

I guess she followed the same rules as in the original post in dropping a PC but then being destroyed herself quickly after. With +9BAB, 30 Strength she's basically impossible to beat as a grappler but it's good for the party to see these kinds of different characters and recognise that it's not all about just outdamaging your opponent.

What Next?

So the session ended there but I made some changes to the mooks inside the lair. I'm hoping to soften them up a fair amount just in case they think taking the ghostlord on is a good idea.

Firstly I upped all of the monks to Monk 5 and gave them all improved trip. I'm not sure how much i'll use the tripping but with 3 attacks a round each, if they use their ki pool (pathfinder thing) at +7 they might give the back line a bit of a run for their money.

The two clerics are now Cleric 6 and have the Fire and Healing domain. It's a bit of a random change I admit but i'm primarily going to have them latch on to a monk each and then buff him up before chucking a fireball at the party, level 3 cleric domain spell, and then just healing. Cleric 6 allows all of their cure spells to be empowered (+50%) so they should be some annoying opponents to fight.

Ulwai is now Bard 9. I dropped the Stormcaller gambit just because i'm not overly impressed by it. I've changed her into a bit of a buffer with Displacement, Good Hope and Haste as her level 3 spells. This with Inspire Courage (at +2 by this level) or Dirge of Doom, makes all enemies within 30 feet shaken, will mean she's a real pain especially as she can go invisible and do everything i've mentioned.

Finally, because I want to prolong the encounter a little, i've thrown in a Goblin fighter named Uggles. Uggles wears full plate, wields a tower shield that he's not proficient with and fights on the defensive every round. He's -2 to hit (-6 on the defensive) but has 29 AC and within the narrow corridors of the ghost lion should allow him to block a door and hopefully use his step up feat to just be a bit of a pain when it comes to restricting movement. I had primarily designed him to give them a bit more time to buff if the party got the drop on Ulwai but given how it went above i'm not sure it's necessary.

I had considered throwing in a Stalwart Defender (3.5 Dwarven Defender but isn't race restricted) and I still might change Uggles to a Stalwart Defender in order to make him an actual threat they want to move past (as at -6 he won't be hitting anything unless he rolls a 20). But I wonder if that will be overkill.

Either way i'm really looking forward to roleplaying the ghostlord as this crazy guy rather than the all powerful evil druid who they think he is. I'll probably take a leaf out of Saph's book and tell them everything they do is in character for the duration of the roleplaying.

[Elder_Basilisk]

On the subject of open or concealed VPs, I thematically prefer concealed VPs--discussing them openly seems a bit gameist to me and I prefer a more organic, simulation style game with the game elements more concealed. On the other hand, you have a good point about players not necessarily appreciating that their actions have consequences beyond pass/fail. I think that's perhaps a more common assumption in video games (the Fallout 1 and 2 consequence recaps come to mind) than pen and paper, but I don't know that it requires a gameist element to bring that to players' minds. Also, I would certainly start scheming ways to get more VPs if I were a player--"if I cast explosive runes on every signpost between here and Brindol, would that be worth a victory point?"

For determining degrees of victory, I think I would still like some feedback on my initial post. Specifically, how hard is it to get all the victory points? It is not an interesting mechanic if the outcome is almost always flawless victory, so if, for example, most groups get between 66 and 72 victory points, it might be best to have the points be 41-66, 67-71, and 72 for flawless. On the other hand, if it is a more even spread, then having the ranges be more even would be better.

Likewise, I was hoping for some feedback on how good the outcomes should possibly be. Is "the attack expended the strength of the goblin tribes and the counter-attack annihilated them so things are better after the war than before it" an option that should even exist? To some degree, that is a matter of what kind of story you like to tell. "The aftermath of the War of the Ring ushers in a new golden age of Gondor" is a great ending for Lord of the Rings, but G.R.R.M. seems to be heading towards something like, "well, there are a few survivors (including none of the most admirable characters--they all died horribly) and all of them are physically maimed and psychically scarred and the people in charge are right bastards, but at least Theon Greyjoy and a couple Lannisters got what was coming to them." I don't think the Golden Age style ending is appropriate to Greyhawk, but I don't care for the full Game of Thrones level cynicism and nihilism either. At the top end of the victory point chart, I worry that I may have gone far in the happy ending direction.

[Saintheart]

For determining degrees of victory, I think I would still like some feedback on my initial post. Specifically, how hard is it to get all the victory points? It is not an interesting mechanic if the outcome is almost always flawless victory, so if, for example, most groups get between 66 and 72 victory points, it might be best to have the points be 41-66, 67-71, and 72 for flawless. On the other hand, if it is a more even spread, then having the ranges be more even would be better.

This might be a bit hard to estimate because different parties will always do different stuff.

The starting point I think would be the points that come from the Battle of Brindol itself, since that's pretty much the one event that the party is going to be at.

Assuming that the party literally does nothing else but show up at the battle, and wins each and every encounter, killing every Wyrmlord and/or dragon who's scheduled to appear, this is the count I get:

Abithriax: 4
Kharn: 8
Koth: 2
Ulwai: 6
Saarvith: 4
Saving the Walls: 2
Putting out the Fires: 2
Streets of Blood: 4
Killing Skather: 2

So a total of 34 VP. None of these guys are programmed to flee -- Abithriax on closer inspection might flee if the party hides or breaks contact -- so a party basically cannot miss the opportunity for these points.

That's without adding in the points they can pull from the Audience with the Lords ahead of the battle, for a maximum of 8 VP there. That's also a more-or-less guaranteed event and I've yet to encounter a campaign report where the party failed significantly in this encounter or didn't earn a single VP - the Diplomacy checks at DC 20 are not terribly hard for a level 8-9 party to meet.

On top of that, I think it's pretty much guaranteed that the party will convince Drellin's Ferry to evacuate the town before the horde reaches them, so I'd call that a safe 3 VP there. While I have seen one campaign where the party stuck around and try and fight the whole horde, I think that's an outlier - most parties, even if they don't get to Cinder Hill and take a look at the size of the Red Hand, tend to take the hint that the party and/or Drellin's Ferry can't fight the Red Hand on its own.

On that note, destroying the bridge at Skull Gorge seems to happen in most campaigns, so there's another 2 VP.

So: 34 VP from just showing up to the battle, 37 VP from just telling Drellin's Ferry folk that "Hey, there's a big army coming your way", and 39 VP from doing the most basic thing and taking out the bridge ahead of the Hand.

This is why it's pretty much the ultimate Fail Party who doesn't hit 40 VP. You can literally tell the Ferryfolk to clear out, gallop ahead of them to Brindol, and cool your heels for the next 3-4 weeks or so awaiting the Hand's arrival and you'll still come very close to winning the campaign.

It might be a bit harsh, but I consider 40 VP to be absolute base competence as players since if the party doesn't realise the nature of the threat and doesn't at least follow the plot marker back to Brindol, it probably shouldn't be out adventuring at all.

After that the VP totals are basically arranged like this:

Twistusk aid - 1 VP
Killing Ozyrrandion, the green dragon - 1
Road blockade - 2
Exposing Miha - 2
Killing Regiarix, the black dragon - 2
Disrupting the hatchery - 2
Killing Varanthian - 3
Delivering the gold - 4
Tiri Kitor Alliance - 5
Disrupting Ghostlord alliance - 5

I've excluded the Wyrmlords from this analysis because they're not, in truth, optional targets: if you don't catch them while out on your travels, you'll get them again at Brindol.

(Perhaps the most interesting part is that plain old indiscriminate slaughter of targets generally doesn't get as many points as diplomacy or doing stuff for people - killing the dragons only gets the party 6 VP altogether, while the alliance aspects of the sidequests nets 14 VP or more.)

A reasonably conscientious party I think is going to pick up at least 14 VP of this lot: from the Tiri Kitor alliance, disrupting the Ghostlord alliance, and delivering the gold. You could be unlucky with a dragon or two getting away, but the blockades are fixed, the Ghostlord isn't going anywhere, Varanthian basically is too big and fat to run anywhere, and delivering the gold is something the DM triggers automatically on the party at some point during their travels prior to the Battle of Brindol.

Remember, the party is going to get either guaranteed or a very high likelihood of 34 VP out of the Battle of Brindol. There's 27 VP in the above, and they only need 6 more points.

And on the campaigns I've seen, most DMs have given the party real and apparent shots at hitting any of these encounters. Few parties seem to skip over the Ghostlord section of the adventure. I think the highest failure rate seems to arise out of the Rhest section of the adventure, and that only because the party either wipes after trying a frontal assault or Regiarix/Saarvith escape. Very few seem to miss smashing up all the greenspawn eggs.

So if I had to hazard a real "degrees of victory" analysis, I'd say the lowest tier is 40 VP; the "average" tier is a total which accounts for the most obvious plot-based stuff that affects Brindol; and the highest total accounts for taking out all Wyrmlords, dragons, and enemy agents, since the last category is the one where luck or good rolls can most influence the outcome.

More analysis later because I have to go, but there's my unleavened tho9ughts...

[Talesin]

More analysis later because I have to go, but there's my unleavened tho9ughts...

I can only really talk from experience of the half of one campaign plus reading the various boards but I totally agree with Saintheart. Honestly I don't think my group could fail to hit the 40 VP total from this current run through and i've dropped at least 1 character to negatives in several battles and killed one in the Ghost Lion so i'm not taking it easy on them.

As such I think if you failed to hit 40 you would have to be messing up the game really badly and I would be quite surprised that the party survived the encounter with Kharn. Obviously it's unlikely that would ever happen but I do like that VPs are a less 'binary' way of working out whether the PCs win. Although there is an actual number they need to beat it's not a case of "you've cleared the Hatchery, subdued the Ghostlord and killed Kharn", it allows groups who have 'failed' some of the objectives to have a chance of still saving the day.

From my playthrough of the game the only logical scenario that I could see a group coming close to 40VP (and I could be wrong here depending on other groups) is if they killed Kharn but managed to let every other Wyrmlord and Dragon escape twice, both when first encountered and then again in Brindol. Even then there are 24VPs available for other encounters, with 10 available for the Battle of Brindol itself and then 8 for Kharn himself for a total of 42 allowing for the chance to win without cutting the whole head off of the Red Hand's attack force.

I do agree with Elder_Basilisks points of players potentially going fishing for VPs if they know about them. I'd rather they remain secret and I think it's echo'd in Saph's campaign journal quite well that the big reveal at the end is quite an exciting moment when they feel that all the things they've spent the past few months working towards weren't a waste. I actually rate the Red Hand's ability to have early decisions influence later fights as one of the real strengths of the module.

[Saintheart]

Likewise, I was hoping for some feedback on how good the outcomes should possibly be. Is "the attack expended the strength of the goblin tribes and the counter-attack annihilated them so things are better after the war than before it" an option that should even exist? To some degree, that is a matter of what kind of story you like to tell. "The aftermath of the War of the Ring ushers in a new golden age of Gondor" is a great ending for Lord of the Rings, but G.R.R.M. seems to be heading towards something like, "well, there are a few survivors (including none of the most admirable characters--they all died horribly) and all of them are physically maimed and psychically scarred and the people in charge are right bastards, but at least Theon Greyjoy and a couple Lannisters got what was coming to them." I don't think the Golden Age style ending is appropriate to Greyhawk, but I don't care for the full Game of Thrones level cynicism and nihilism either. At the top end of the victory point chart, I worry that I may have gone far in the happy ending direction.

Finally back to have a look at this now. :)

Leaving aside the general tone of the setting (as I haven't, to my great disadvantage, played in Greyhawk) I would have thought it might be a bit much that a counterattack from Elsir Vale's forces completely obliterates the hobgoblin presence in the area and ushers in a new golden age.

The rationale for that, to my mind, comes down to simple manpower. To me, RHOD portrays the assault on Brindol not so much as a clash of equals but as one desperate stand by a heavily outnumbered force against the Red Hand. This stand only succeeds due to a failure of morale on the part of the hobgoblins. That morale failure only happens because the party's been eating away at the spiritual support for the horde: they deprive the Hand of a few Wyrmlords, a couple of dragons, undead support, and greenspawn razorfiends ahead of the Battle, such that what's left is basically one big red dragon and Kharn holding the invasion together. When they both fall, all impetus for the invasion collapses: the Hand is mostly made up of cannon fodder, even on RHOD's own notes. The module itself points out that if the players win, they only win because of the Hand's morale failure - if you don't do enough, the Hand regroups and attacks Brindol again, which falls because it's shot its bolt holding off the first assault on the city. That implies a massive disparity in troop numbers between Brindol's levies and that of the Red Hand.

I toted up the number of troops holding Brindol, including the Tiri Kitor, the Shining Axes, the mysterious "northern reinforcements", and the 800 total levies that Brindol was able to call up. I estimate about 1,500 troops all up in Brindol from all of these forces combined, against a hobgoblin force that's many thousands strong. I took the risk of injecting historical factoids into the game and kept pointing out to the players that a wall around a city or a castle levels a ten-to-one disadvantage on the part of the defenders, implying that the Red Hand was at least ten thousand strong against a city that has never fallen under serious assault. Given the Hand has enough troops to launch a second, more determined assault after failing on the first try, I think that number of aggressors is even larger: say fifteen thousand or more. It's the city wall more than anything else that gives Brindol's forces a fighting chance, not the number of Brindolese men defending it.

1,500 men being the sum total of troops able to be called up in time of desperate crisis is a piddling number for a campaign into treacherous mountains. I really think that number of men couldn't seriously launch a counterattack and hope to hold an area as vast and inhospitable as the Wyrmsmokes against the indigenous hobgoblin population -- even if said population was cut to pieces at Brindol. At the risk of historical analogues -- the eventual failure of the Crusades didn't lead to an explosive counterattack from Palestine/Turkey into Italy, for example (or if it did, it only happened many hundreds of years later).

In addition, the Vale itself is not a kingdom as such. The sense I got was that Rhestilor had been a kingdom but its line failed, and the cities originally loyal to it -- Brindol and Dennovar -- broke away or fended for themselves after Rhest was destroyed. The Vale is basically two city-states with a group of roughly independent towns orbiting them, it isn't a true kingdom with a hierarchy as such. This makes "Lord" Jarmaath's title a bit confusing, but the way I played it was that it was a holdover from the Rhestilorian days, even if the locals didn't care for the idea of kings anymore. The fact you can still have wandering monster encounters across Elsir Vale speaks to the idea that while it's not under serious threat from another nation as such, it's still more or less a frontier area dotted with the strongpoints of Brindol and Dennovar.

The sense I get of Elsir Vale in RHOD is that prior to Azarr Kul's rise, it's in equilibrium with its neighbours. Drellin's Ferry has seen hobgoblin raiders before, but its low-level town guard is enough to see off raiders regularly, and the tribes have never massed together to seriously threaten the Vale. I might misremember it, but even hobgoblin raiders in the Witchwood is a fairly rare occurrence - normally the hobgoblins don't venture far out of the Wyrmsmokes unless they're on a razzia west of Drellin's Ferry. After all, the adventure starts near a burned-out farmhouse, which seems to indicate west of the Elsir is frontier country, but not a no-go area even with hobgoblin raiders around. That is, the hobgoblins are pretty content to stay living in the Wyrmsmokes for the most part, there's no significant presence of them south or west of the mountains' foothills at all.

The point being: I think the utter destruction of the Red Hand may only go so far as to restore that equilibrium. It gives enough breathing space and time for the Vale to restore its borders and restore its defences against hobgoblin raiding parties. The Hand's constituent tribes go back to fighting one another without Kul's unifying influence. Nobody's got enough manpower to do anything more than that. By hitting most if not all of the VPs, the party really just removes any possible figurehead under whom the Red Hand could reform: all its leaders have been taken out and it doesn't have a charismatic dragon to unite or inspire them. Yes, a warpriest might take command of the Hand per RHOD itself, but as we've seen from the VP analysis that's only going to happen where the Hand retains most of its unusual troops and where Brindol has no allies to stand with. At best a "100% completion" victory significantly lessens the likelihood of generations of continuing war under iterative "spiritual successors" to Azarr Kul.

In my campaign I also took (from what source I can't remember) the idea that Brindol is basically in for close-to-famine conditions in the next year following the assault. The Red Hand explicitly adopts scorched-earth policies as it advances on Brindol, burning every town it passes, and more significantly, every crop and orchard it passes. The campaign takes place in high summer if I remember right. which means that harvest time hasn't come and the various villagers will not have had the opportunity to fully bring in their crops. Even if the eastern half of the Vale up to Dennovar is spared, that's at least five or six villages of people that are going to be relying on the kindness of Brindol and points east for their food through the coming winter if not outright starving. Not to mention the possibility of crop failure the next spring because there won't be enough seed left from this season to fully replant.

Also, again on manpower, the campaign expressly puts all women and children on wagons to Dennovar, leaving only the able-bodied men of Elsir Vale to die defending Brindol. Brindol's forces are going to be composed of a lot of peasants or commoners who've never held a sword before, never mind whether we see scenes out of The Two Towers a la "Most of them have seen too many winters ... or too few!" Even if the Hand is driven off that workforce is going to be seriously reduced on by the bloody slaughter on Brindol's wall and within the city streets.

Like I said, bringing historical realities in is always a risky enterprise at the best of times Because Magic and/or Because Fiction, but I think these impact heavily on the turnout for Elsir Vale if the tone of your setting is not Lord-Of-The-Rings optimistic. Even there, the Shire was basically turned into a cesspit thanks to Saruman (SPOILERS!!! ) and the fact nobody had direct feudal control of the joint, and Gondor under Aragorn's rule was a reminder of the greatness of the Numenorean kings, not the restoration of their full glory. I could see the Battle for Brindol being the turning point in Elsir Vale's history -- that a generation or so from now the Vale crystallises into a kingdom because its inhabitants realise the benefits and advantages of having one king and a standing army to protect the whole area -- but I don't think that change would happen in a short period of time.

ALL OF THAT SAID: I don't think the consequences you're putting forward are all Happy Happy Joy Joy for the players in the circumstances. Reviewing the list of outcomes I don't think you imply at all that the hobgoblin presence is utterly exterminated. I just raise an eyebrow at the number of men required to achieve some of the goals bearing in mind the above.

[Saintheart]

aaaaaand just logging for the hell of it, but I'm starting up a RHOD campaign right here on GITP!

[Antariuk]

I just saw something in the awesome new Kickstarter from Legendary Games for their new Sowrd & Planet AP:

The Assimilation Strain is a 40-page prequel adventure written by Tom Phillips and Neil Spicer for 1st to 2nd level player characters.

A strange sickness afflicts the frontier settlement of Holver's Ferry, threatening to overwhelm its citizens with an alien madness. Already the town has nearly torn itself apart, and the local sheriff is missing. When the PCs brave the surrounding wilderness as the village's latest newcomers, the beleaguered townsfolk desperately turn to them for assistance. But can these erstwhile heroes trace the diseased carrier to its source and solve the mystery before they, too, succumb to The Assimilation Strain?

Trick question: which town in Elsir Vale would make a good substitute to get a new adventure started once the heroes defeated the Red Hand?
Extra points if Azar Kul is actually from outer space... or something like that.

[Saintheart]

Sounds really good, dude, I'll have to look into it.

Also sorry you can't apply for my RHOD game ... although gods know I'm probably going to wind up using half your maps for it ...

[Talesin]

Don't forget to drop us a link here Saint if you do a write up! Would love to read about it!

Edit

Also I had a bit of a brain wave last night. Miha Serani has always perplexed me a bit as an encounter. I didn't really think she'd be all that useful for my party to fight against because they would drop her quite easily due to the action advantage and I probably wouldn't get a chance to surrender before her hit points were just overwhelmed.

By this point in my campaign the Red Hand is aware of who the PCs are and i'll be running the Marked for Death scenario after they leave the Ghostlords lair so i'm going to throw Miha Serani in there. I'll have her as a 'victim' they are torturing with the dead bodies on the trees. This will give some impetus for the party to kill the ones potentially able to kill this poor 'girl' and also allow them a few sense motive checks to notice the betrayal.

I won't have her attack the party until at least one of the Bhargests is down in order to give them a bit of a chance, unless they're just wiping the floor with the mooks. I'm going to upgrade her to a Rogue 3/Arcane Trickster 3 as per the first post and see how that goes down.

[Antariuk]

Sounds really good, dude, I'll have to look into it.

Also sorry you can't apply for my RHOD game ... although gods know I'm probably going to wind up using half your maps for it ...

No worries, I'm happy if my maps are of any use :)
Since you mentioned something about sandbox in your recruitment, I want to point out this thread on ENworld in case you're unaware of it. Someone is working on expanding Elsir Vale into a huge sandbox where all kinds of modules take place, maybe you can grab an idea or two. Might also be worth being linked in the handbook itself.

[Saintheart]

Don't forget to drop us a link here Saint if you do a write up! Would love to read about it!

It'll be in post-by-post right here, so I certainly will be posting up links and commentary as I go.

Also I had a bit of a brain wave last night. Miha Serani has always perplexed me a bit as an encounter. I didn't really think she'd be all that useful for my party to fight against because they would drop her quite easily due to the action advantage and I probably wouldn't get a chance to surrender before her hit points were just overwhelmed.

By this point in my campaign the Red Hand is aware of who the PCs are and i'll be running the Marked for Death scenario after they leave the Ghostlords lair so i'm going to throw Miha Serani in there. I'll have her as a 'victim' they are torturing with the dead bodies on the trees. This will give some impetus for the party to kill the ones potentially able to kill this poor 'girl' and also allow them a few sense motive checks to notice the betrayal.

I won't have her attack the party until at least one of the Bhargests is down in order to give them a bit of a chance, unless they're just wiping the floor with the mooks. I'm going to upgrade her to a Rogue 3/Arcane Trickster 3 as per the first post and see how that goes down.

Bear in mind she doesn't have to be a combat encounter until later on - you could just use the "my heroes" gambit to get her into the party and thus into Brindol from there. Suppose she gets to go along with the party as an allied NPC and makes it all the way into the Audience with the Lords, only then pulling out an assassination attempt on Lord Jarmaath himself? Could turn it into something a bit more exciting than the standard thing. The handbook might well want some better suggestions on Miha Serani, she has a lot of potential...

No worries, I'm happy if my maps are of any use :)
Since you mentioned something about sandbox in your recruitment, I want to point out this thread on ENworld in case you're unaware of it. Someone is working on expanding Elsir Vale into a huge sandbox where all kinds of modules take place, maybe you can grab an idea or two. Might also be worth being linked in the handbook itself.

I'll note it. Got to say I like the idea of adventurers growing up in the Vale and moving on to defend it.

[Talesin]

Bear in mind she doesn't have to be a combat encounter until later on - you could just use the "my heroes" gambit to get her into the party and thus into Brindol from there. Suppose she gets to go along with the party as an allied NPC and makes it all the way into the Audience with the Lords, only then pulling out an assassination attempt on Lord Jarmaath himself? Could turn it into something a bit more exciting than the standard thing. The handbook might well want some better suggestions on Miha Serani, she has a lot of potential...

Had a bit of a mismatched session last night so I skipped Miha as they took a long time fighting Ulwai and the session would have overran. I've set her up as a rescue encounter now though, saying that she's been 'working' for Brindol and hasn't reported back for a few days with her regular messages. I'm going to get the PCs to ship out on a rescue mission and then run the marked for death encounter.

If the PCs just paste the encounter up the wall i'll let them save her and bring her back to Brindol, where she'll try and attack Jarmaath at some point. Could make a fun chase through the city if I assume the assassination attempt failed and then run something similar to the rooftop chase from Curse of the Crimson Throne (Pathfinder AP). The party has no natural ability to fly and if they use their potions of fly attempting to chase her down then it depletes their resources a little. This would also allow them to gain Jarmaath's favour and grab a few pluses to the diplomacy roles during the Brindol planning stage.

If they're struggling or getting bogged down a little I might break her out of her "oh no help me" into her Aranae form, declaring that this was all a ruse to attempt to take out Brindol's champions.

In terms of the Ulwai encounter I didn't have the fog cloud in the room to start with because I had upped the Monks and Clerics in order to make it a little more challenging of an encounter:

Characters Present:
Ranger 7, archer build with a Cat Animal Companion
Fighter 7, full damage 2h Flail build
Rogue 7,
Cleric 7, Mainly heals in encounters and is oddly afraid to use his high level spells. Preferring to bless in most combats.

(I am still trying to 'teach' my PCs a bit about the game as they are all new and they haven't really fought smart groups of enemies yet hence the Fire/Healing domain. I wanted to include some strong AOE to try and force themselves to spread a little bit but also provide a strong healer to stop them just focusing the front line fighters who get healed over and over.)

Spoiler: Doomfist Monk

Show

DOOM FIST MONK
Hobgoblin Monk 5
LE Medium humanoid (goblinoid)
Init +2; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +2 Immunity Disease
DEFENSE
AC (19) 15, touch 13, flat-footed 12 (+2 dex, +2 natural, +1 dodge)
hp 42 (5d8+20)
Fort +7, Ref +6, Will +5 *+2 vs enchantments
Special Defence: Ki Pool 3/day +4 dodge bonus to AC
OFFENSE
Speed 40 ft.
Melee Fist +7 (1d8+3) or Flurry of Blows +7/+7 (1d8+3) Ki Pool 1 additional attack +7 (1d8+3)
Special Attacks Stunning Fist 5/day (DC:13): Stunned for 1 round
STATISTICS
Str 16, Dex 15, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8
Base Atk +3; CMB +8 (+10 Trip); CMD 19 (+21 Trip)
Feats Toughness, Weapon Focus (natural weapon), Dodge, Improved trip
Skills Perception +9, Stealth +14; Racial Modifiers +4 Stealth
Languages Common, Goblin
ECOLOGY
Treasure 1 Thunderstone

Monks are up to level 5. They are still pretty weak but with Ulwai up at Bard 9 she's got a fair number of buffs for them to cause some damage.

Spoiler: Cleric

Show

HOBGOBLIN CLERIC
Hobgoblin Cleric 6 Domains: Fire, Healing
LE Medium humanoid (goblinoid)
Init +0; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +6 Resistance Fire 10
DEFENSE
AC 18, touch 10, flat footed 18 (+6 armour, +2 Shield)
hp 42 (5d8+20)
Fort +8, Ref +2, Will +8
Special actions: Channel Energy 3d6 (DC13 for half) 4/day All Cure spells are empowered (+50%)
OFFENSE
Speed 20 ft.
Melee Heavy Mace +5 (1d8+1)
Spells 4, 4+1, 4+1, 3+1
3rd: CSW, Fireball (D), Prayer, Magic Vestements (DC:16)
2nd: Aid, Bull’s Strength, CMW (D), Darkness, Hold Person, (DC:15)
1st: Bless (Bane), CLW, CLW (D), Doom, Hide from Undead (DC:14)
O:
STATISTICS
Str 13, Dex 10, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 12
Base Atk +4; CMB +4; CMD 14
Feats Toughness, Selective Channelling (1 person), Command Undead
Skills Heal +10, Perception +6, Stealth -2 Spellcraft +4; Racial Modifiers +4 Stealth
Languages Common, Goblin
ECOLOGY
Treasure 2 Potions CLW, Scroll Spiritual Weapon, Chainmail, light steel shield, heavy mace

These are a bit of a mismatch but at Cleric 6 they're really quite powerful. Sadly their pitiful HP pools let them down as they were focused down in a round each.

Overall the encounter went really well and was easily one of the most challenging fights i've had with this group. I started off by fireballing into the room, which hit 3 monks, 2 saved with evasion, and all 4 PCs, the rogue saving with evasion. Then I dropped a fog cloud straight into the room while Ulwai started singing to buff up the troops.

The monks managed to last 4-5 rounds in total doing 4 attacks a round at max BAB, 2 from flurry, 1 from ki pool and 1 from haste, because of awful rolling for miss chances from all of the PCs including the fighter missing a 42 damage crit that would've one shot one of the monks. At one point the Cleric had a single hit point, fighter had 6, the rogue was in single digits and the Ranger was below half. This forced a heal from the Staff of Life and that ultimately saved the day.

Ulwai was a strong character at Bard 9 and had buffs to really cause issues for the PCs. She surrendered after they had killed all of her minions and gave up information about the Ghostlord as well as a bit about the Red Hand. I've dropped a few fun 'lies' for the PCs to feed back to Brindol, such as there being more than one dragon left in the horde and that there are more Greenspawn Razorfiends. Both of which have the PCs a little worried.

Spoiler: Ulwai

Show

ULWAI STORMCALLER
Hobgoblin Bard 9
LE Medium humanoid (goblinoid)
Init +0; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception
DEFENSE
AC 21, touch 13, flat footed 18 (+4 Armour, +4 Shield, +2 Dex, +1 Dodge)
hp 76 (9d8+36)
Fort +6, Ref +8, Will +6
Special actions: Bardic Performance 16rds/day start as a move action
Inspire Courage: +2 to hit and damage and saves against fear
Inspire Greatness: Gain 11+2Con hit points, +2 to hit and +1 on fort saves,
Dirge of Doom: Causes targets to become shaken, -2 to attack rolls, saves, skills and ability checks
OFFENSE
Speed 30 ft.
Melee As book
Spells 6, 5, 4 (Known: 6, 5, 4, 4)
3rd: Displacement, Glibness, Good Hope, Haste (DC:17)
2nd: Blur, Heroism, Invisibility, Suggestion (DC:16)
1st: Comprehend Langs, Cure Light Wounds, Lesser Confusion, Grease, Obscure Object (DC:15)
O:
STATISTICS 15 14 12 11 10 8
Str 8, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 18
Base Atk +6; CMB +5; CMD 17
Feats Toughness, Combat Casting, Dodge, Weapon Finesse, Deceitful
Skills Not Listed; Racial Modifiers +4 Stealth
Languages Common, Goblin
ECOLOGY
Treasure

Great session overall. The advice for how to roleplay the Ghostlord worked wonders. They kept trying to talk to him and I had him more or less ignoring them while walking around the various chambers inside his lair. They brought up the Red Hand and I had him stop and just stare at the PC who mentioned it before going back to his ramblings about killing and finding his phylactery.

They eventually mentioned that they had it and at that point he span around and immediately demanded it's return or he'll take it from them. They tried to negotiate a bit, requesting that he leave the Red Hand alone for it's return, to which he just demanded it's return. After a few seconds of in talking I had him move foward to take it and they gave it up and ran, pushing the bound Ulwai towards the Ghostlord.

[Saintheart]

If the PCs just paste the encounter up the wall i'll let them save her and bring her back to Brindol, where she'll try and attack Jarmaath at some point. Could make a fun chase through the city if I assume the assassination attempt failed and then run something similar to the rooftop chase from Curse of the Crimson Throne (Pathfinder AP).

I'll have to go and look up that chase - I've not seen it before, might well be useful for other adventures!

pushing the bound Ulwai towards the Ghostlord.

Geeeeez, talk about Fridge Horror. Not saying Ulwai doesn't deserve it, but the thought of Ulwai being left to the Ghostlord's tender mercies ... *brrrr!*

In other news, the IC and OOC threads for my RHOD campaign are up here:

Here's the IC thread.
Here's the OOC thread.

It's a completely casterless party, which hopefully will make for a very different vibe to my previous campaign which had wiggly-finger action out the wazoo. Having said that I suspect these guys will be very survivable: on a bit of a lark I told them to ignore all LA, so we've got a lycanthrope, a Shade, a redcap (i.e. fey monster), an Urdunnir dwarf with Earth Glide, and a human. And the latter is the Ranger/Fighter -- to help him keep up I've given him the Spellwarped template. I'll have to do upgrades, of course, but how they handle flying targets and whatnot should make for a very interesting challenge indeed. And the party alignment is a little different, too - the Shade is Lawful Evil (but has promised not to play Stupid Evil, so that shouldn't be a problem I think) and there's several neutrals.

[Talesin]

I'll have to go and look up that chase - I've not seen it before, might well be useful for other adventures!

From what I remember you can either take the easy or the hard route. Easy route allows you to move on a square and can either be done for free or involves a relatively easy skill check (DC12-15ish jump/climb etc) depending on the square you're trying to get through. The hard route allows you to move 2 squares on (basically skipping 1 skill check) and is normally a harder DC. I'm sure it could be varied a little by throwing in diplomacy checks to move through a crowd or intimidate to get yourself through a short cut that has a guard.

Each check requires a move action to do it so you get 2 a round. You can cast spells etc to help with the obstacles and have to catch a relatively nimble character before you can subdue her. As a Dwarven Fighter in full plate I was worse than useless in the chase but our ranger and rogue were able to catch her about 2/3rds of the way across the rooftops.

Geeeeez, talk about Fridge Horror. Not saying Ulwai doesn't deserve it, but the thought of Ulwai being left to the Ghostlord's tender mercies ... *brrrr!*

I wasn't overly sure what to make of this. It's a pretty evil thing to do but given how I portrayed the Ghostlord he might ignore her for a little bit while he's messing around with the Phylactery. Sadly I think I mentioned that he grabbed her as she was thrown towards him and was paralyzed by his touch. She could still get out. I would quite like to see their faces when Ulwai strolls up to the cathedral. :)

In other news, the IC and OOC threads for my RHOD campaign are up here:

I'll be keeping an eye out! The party make up sounds quite fun, especially with the odd mix of character races.

[Saintheart]

Footnoting: very interesting discussion about adapting RHOD in Eberron to be about the Lord of Blades rather than Azarr Kul. Discussion is linked in the front of the handbook because it's interesting and worth a read on its own.

[the_david]

That would be one of the strengths of RHoD. You could turn it into anything if by altering the details but not the plot.

But we shouldn't limit it to the Lord of Blades, there are plenty of other options out there. One of my ideas was to tell a story about the Orcs in Thar. You'd add Sons of Gruumsh into the mix, maybe a little bit from Mysteries of the Moonsea with the hammer of Vorbyx. And don't forget to raze Phlan.
Another idea I had was to make it about Hextor vs. Heironeous, with the aspect of Hextor descending from a colossal gate on an Acharonian cube.
It would also work perfectly in the Dragonlance campaign setting during the War of the Lance.

But what other options are out there?

[russdm]

Will we getting a 5th Edition version of this module? Or a computer game one, because it looks like something that could be done well by a specially trained bunch of game designers (like Bioware or Obisidian).

I am just curious.

[Saintheart]

Will we getting a 5th Edition version of this module? Or a computer game one, because it looks like something that could be done well by a specially trained bunch of game designers (like Bioware or Obisidian).

I am just curious.

I don't know about 5th edition versions of the module, but I'd be surprised if they did. In fourth edition they went for a sequel AP instead - Scales of War - which was set a generation on from the events of Red Hand of Doom.

As for computer games, while I haven't played it, there is a fanbuilt Red Hand of Doom mod out there for Neverwinter Nights 2.

[Antariuk]

If you Google for "Red Hand of Doom 5E" you get lots of results from all the known RPG Boards where people diskussed a conversion. Shouldn't be hard to get a game going with that :)

[Talesin]

As for computer games, while I haven't played it, there is a fanbuilt Red Hand of Doom mod out there for Neverwinter Nights 2.

Anyone played it?

Not got a vast amount of time to play now days but that sounds like a good laugh!

Edit: How long does the Battle for Brindol last in real time? I'm assuming it's a few hours between the initial attacking of the walls and the cathedral battle.

[Saintheart]

Anyone played it?

Not got a vast amount of time to play now days but that sounds like a good laugh!

Edit: How long does the Battle for Brindol last in real time? I'm assuming it's a few hours between the initial attacking of the walls and the cathedral battle.

That's about right. All encounters are meant to happen under full moonlight, and the cathedral battle happens at about the break of dawn if I remember right.

[Draz74]

If you Google for "Red Hand of Doom 5E" you get lots of results from all the known RPG Boards where people diskussed a conversion. Shouldn't be hard to get a game going with that :)

I'm running it myself, currently ...

[ksbsnowowl]

Edit: How long does the Battle for Brindol last in real time? I'm assuming it's a few hours between the initial attacking of the walls and the cathedral battle.

Caveat: When I ran RHoD I had heavily modded it for a viking-themed gestalt game.

My "Battle of Brindol" took five three-and-a-half-hour game sessions (17.5 hours). But probably one and a half of those sessions dealt with an additional climactic thing happening in the midst of the battle, somewhat equivalent to if I had added a second "Streets of Blood" series of encounters.

I also used the "Crisis Points" variant that Glyphstone had come up with (noted in post #7 of this thread), but my PC's didn't pick up on the fact that they were supposed to be letting these things play out, and reserve their strength. As I described the initial wall assault, my PC's jumped in; the same with the Hill Giant Battery, etc. Thus we played out every. single. one. of those encounters anyway. I still had the crisis points troop movements play a part in Streets of Blood, and modify the troops and waves as described by Glyphstone.

Edit: When I played through RHoD back in 2007, IIRC, the Battle of Brindol took at least three, if not four or five game sessions. Those games were 3.5 - 4 hours each.

[jiriku]

Saintheart, if I can recommend an alternative for restatting Varanthian:

I rebuilt her as a remorhaz with unarmed swordsage levels and a heavy selection of Desert Wind maneuvers. Since she can use any part of her body for unarmed strikes, she uses superheated bodyslams, adding 8d6 fire damage to attack and getting multiple attacks according to her base attack bonus. Her bite-and-swallow technique actually becomes a secondary natural attack and much less of the main show (and she can reserve the bite-grab combo for an opportunity attack, offering herself a defense against chargers). Further, a remorhaz can burrow, so once she bites and grabs an enemy, she avoids further attack by the simple expedient of burrowing underground, swallowing the PC whole on the next round and burrowing under another PC, then pops up to repeat the trick on the following round. She's very dangerous as an ambush lurker. The swordsage maneuvers like Death Mark, Fire Snake, and Holocaust Cloak improve her ability to attack multiple foes at once.