Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XIX

[T.G. Oskar]

I'm surprised whether there's gonna be an Originality score higher than 3... I see a lot of builds that have a similar background. There's at least one or two that might get mondo points for their odd background, tho. Well, maybe I can find one that gets a higher score...

It also shows that many minds think alike. Dishonorable won against Honorable (why it might have been...?), and there's...an awful lot of similar tricks that most people thought of. Though, very few people really made something with the Chairman's favorite trick; I think he might be disappointed with that.

Alright, now it's off to the judges to break last time's record on how long will judging take. It's 8 entries, so it's not like it's gonna take a lot of time, no?

[Cartigan]

What was the favorite trick?
Seemingly half everyone took several of the same movement skill tricks.
And a lot of Evil characters, and characters that technically aren't Evil but they aren't going out of their way to save kittens.

[Amphetryon]

What was the favorite trick?
Seemingly half everyone took several of the same movement skill tricks.
And a lot of Evil characters, and characters that technically aren't Evil but they aren't going out of their way to save kittens.

true_shinken said his favorite trick from Dread Pirate is Acrobatic Charge which, sadly, is all but exactly replicated by a single Complete Scoundrel Skill Trick.

[Cartigan]

true_shinken said his favorite trick from Dread Pirate is Acrobatic Charge which, sadly, is all but exactly replicated by a single Complete Scoundrel Skill Trick.

Which I think several people also took...
Charging is cool and all but it's really a secondary thing to do - I mean, you can't charge every round. And you'd have to come at the Dread Pirate a different direction, which isn't really encouraged by the class. I charge you with my... finesse weapon...

[pilvento]

thats it, this saturday we are starting a short steampunk campaing, and im going to play captain Vincent Alzey d’Lyrandar

starts at lvl 15 and by that lvl the build look prety solid dosent it?

edit: elemental-powered manapunk wonder ship... source?

[Cartigan]

thats it, this saturday we are starting a short steampunk campaing, and im going to play captain Vincent Alzey d’Lyrandar

starts at lvl 15 and by that lvl the build look prety solid dosent it?

edit: elemental-powered manapunk wonder ship... source?

Beats me, all I know is we need a more concrete submittal structure...

[pilvento]

Beats me, all I know is we need a more concrete submittal structure...

ok man, whatever u say.

[OMG PONIES]

Beats me, all I know is we need a more concrete submittal structure...

I speak only for myself, but half of the fun is reading the new and creative ways people find to present their submissions.

[Cartigan]

I speak only for myself, but half of the fun is reading the new and creative ways people find to present their submissions.

I would prefer people be creative in their submissions, not in the trying to outwit people trying to read them. But that's me.

[pilvento]

I speak only for myself, but half of the fun is reading the new and creative ways people find to present their submissions.

second.

for my this thread is entirely about that.

[T.G. Oskar]

Which I think several people also took...
Charging is cool and all but it's really a secondary thing to do - I mean, you can't charge every round. And you'd have to come at the Dread Pirate a different direction, which isn't really encouraged by the class. I charge you with my... finesse weapon...

Actually, it's not a bad idea. It's only one of the ways to deal with charging.

There are two schools of charging: the Shocktrooper Leaping Charge (using Leap Attack, Power Attack, Battle Jump to nearly quadruple your damage, and Shock Trooper to shift BAB penalties to AC) and the Pouncer (basically, anything that adds pounce). Without any of the two, Dread Pirate indeed looks grim, but do consider that Acrobatic Charge is mostly a Swashbuckler ability, of which the Dread Pirate draws a bit.

However, you can do well with finessable charging weapons. The idea is to deal as much damage on every blow you might do with the charge. Obviously, unless you're going with Elven Courtblade, you can't use the first school of charging, but as you can see on two of the builds, a Pouncer really doesn't care much whether the weapon can be Finessed or not, so as long as it gets lots of attacks and a solid amount of damage on each. With TWF, and advancing TWF alongside it, you can make sure to counter the whole output that a PA/Leap/BattleJump/Shock Trooper charger can do (which is a heck of a lot!) with smaller but deadlier moves. In that case, you can combine charge, TWF and Weapon Finesse on a simple and easy tactic. Furthermore, there is no actual requisite to use Finessable weapons; if the Dread Pirate has more Strength than Dexterity (and gets Weapon Finesse to enter the class), it can use stronger weapons and still take advantage of Acrobatic Charge.

Though, I do find Quick Draw harder to explain. Quick Draw would make for some wonderful throwing builds (and with Master Thrower and some of the Miniatures Handbook feats, you could charge and hurl a weapon using Quick Draw at its finest), but aside from that it's less useful than Weapon Finesse (which, if you get Dexterity higher than Strength at any moment, allows you to take advantage of).

[unosarta]

Though, I do find Quick Draw harder to explain. Quick Draw would make for some wonderful throwing builds (and with Master Thrower and some of the Miniatures Handbook feats, you could charge and hurl a weapon using Quick Draw at its finest), but aside from that it's less useful than Weapon Finesse (which, if you get Dexterity higher than Strength at any moment, allows you to take advantage of).

Actually, Weapon Finesse does have a few conditions. It can only be used on Light weapons, Rapiers, Whips, and Spiked Chains. So, you can't Weapon Finesse a greatsword, or any one or two handed weapon that isn't listed above.

In addition, when wielding shields, you take the Armor Check Penalty as a penalty to attack rolls.

[Thurbane]

Beats me, all I know is we need a more concrete submittal structure...

I tend to agree here. Sometimes it takes me 2 or 3 readthroughs to understand basic stuff like race and levels.

As some of the entries did, a quick summary like Sex Race, Class X/Class Y/Prc Z helps in understanding the entry a lot.

I also think a more "standardized" "entry form" could make submitting a little less daunting for first time entrants, possibly increasing the number of submissions.

Just my 2 cents, of course.

[dextercorvia]

Natural Weapons are both finessable and good for a charge. They make getting pounce without using SLT a bit easier, too.

[Amechra]

Dropping out of judging.

[Amphetryon]

Actually, Weapon Finesse does have a few conditions. It can only be used on Light weapons, Rapiers, Whips, and Spiked Chains. So, you can't Weapon Finesse a greatsword, or any one or two handed weapon that isn't listed above.

In addition, when wielding shields, you take the Armor Check Penalty as a penalty to attack rolls.

I expected to see an Elvish Courtblade, as one of the few Two Handed weapons that can be Finessed.

[true_shinken]

Guys, I'm sorry but I missed a contestant. I'm posting his build late and updating the first post with all the builds.

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The Dread Ghost

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Build

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{table=head]Level|Class|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Skills|Feats|Class Features

1st|Hexblade 1|

+1

|

+0

|

+0

|

+2

|Appraise 4, Profession (Sailor) 4, Swim 2, Use Rope 2|Able Learner, Skill Focus (Intimidate)|Hexblade’s Curse 1/Day

2nd|Hexblade 1/Ghost 1|

+1

|

+0

|

+0

|

+2

|Appraise 4, Profession (Sailor) 4, Swim 2, Use Rope 2|--|Ethereal, Fly, Manifestation, Ghost Skills +2

3rd|Hexblade 1/Ghost 2|

+1

|

+0

|

+0

|

+2

|Appraise 4, Profession (Sailor) 4, Swim 2, Use Rope 2|Quick Draw|Frightful Moan, +2 Charisma, Turn Resistance +2

4th|Ghost 2/Hexblade 2|

+2

|

+0

|

+0

|

+3

|Appraise 5, Profession (Sailor) 5, Swim 3, Use Rope 2|--|Arcane Resistance

5th|Ghost 2/Hexblade 3|

+3

|

+1

|

+1

|

+3

|Appraise 6, Profession (Sailor) 6, Swim 3, Use Rope 3|--|Mettle

6th|Ghost 2/Hexblade 4|

+4

|

+1

|

+1

|

+4

|Appraise 7, Profession (Sailor) 7, Swim 4, Use Rope 3|Weapon Finesse|Summon Familiar

7th|Ghost 2/Hexblade 5|

+4

|

+1

|

+1

|

+4

|Appraise 8, Profession (Sailor) 8, Swim 4, Use Rope 4|Combat Casting|Hexblade’s Curse 2/Day

8th|Ghost 2/Hexblade 5/Dread Pirate 1|

+6

|

+1

|

+3

|

+4

|Appraise 8, Profession (Sailor) 9, Swim 4, Use Rope 8, Intimidate 2|--|Seamanship, Two-weapon Fighting

9th|Ghost 2/Hexblade 5/Dread Pirate 2|

+7

|

+1

|

+4

|

+4

|Appraise 8, Profession (Sailor) 10, Swim 4, Use Rope 9, Intimidate 7|Power Attack|Fearsome Reputation +2 (Dishonourable)

10th|Ghost 2/Hexblade 5/Dread Pirate 3|

+8

|

+2

|

+4

|

+5

|Appraise 8, Profession (Sailor) 11, Swim 4, Use Rope 11, Intimidate 11|--|Sneak Attack +1d6

11th|Ghost 2/Hexblade 5/Dread Pirate 4|

+9

|

+2

|

+5

|

+5

|Appraise 8, Profession (Sailor) 12, Swim 4, Use Rope 12, Intimidate 12, Hide 2, Move Silently 2|--|Acrobatic Charge, Steady Stance

12th|Ghost 2/Hexblade 5/Dread Pirate 5|

+10

|

+2

|

+5

|

+5

|Appraise 8, Profession (Sailor) 13, Swim 4, Use Rope 13, Intimidate 13, Hide 4, Move Silently 4|Improved Initiative|Scourge of the Seas

13th|Ghost 2/Hexblade 5/Dread Pirate 6|

+11

|

+3

|

+6

|

+6

|Appraise 8, Profession (Sailor) 14, Swim 4, Use Rope 14, Intimidate 14, Hide 6, Move Silently 6|--|Fearsome Reputation +4

14th|Ghost 2/Hexblade 5/Dread Pirate 7|

+12

|

+3

|

+6

|

+6

|Appraise 8, Profession (Sailor) 15, Swim 4, Use Rope 15, Intimidate 15, Hide 7, Move Silently 6, Concentration 4|--|Sneak Attack +2d6

15th|Ghost 2/Hexblade 5/Dread Pirate 8|

+13

|

+3

|

+7

|

+6

|Appraise 8, Profession (Sailor) 16, Swim 4, Use Rope 15, Intimidate 16, Hide 9, Move Silently 9, Concentration 4|Flyby Attack|Skill Mastery

16th|Ghost 2/Hexblade 5/Dread Pirate 9|

+14

|

+4

|

+7

|

+7

|Appraise 8, Profession (Sailor) 17, Swim 4, Use Rope 15, Intimidate 17, Hide 11, Move Silently 10, Concentration 4|--|Motivate the Scum

17th|Ghost 2/Hexblade 5/Dread Pirate 10|

+15

|

+4

|

+8

|

+7

|Appraise 8, Profession (Sailor) 18, Swim 4, Use Rope 15, Intimidate 18, Hide 13, Move Silently 13, Concentration 4|--|Fearsome Reputation +6, Pirate King

18th|Ghost 3/Hexblade 5/Dread Pirate 10|

+16

|

+6

|

+8

|

+7

|Appraise 8, Profession (Sailor) 18, Swim 4, Use Rope 15, Intimidate 18, Hide 12, Move Silently 12, Concentration 4|Force of Will|Ghost Skills +4, Rejuvenation

19th|Ghost 4/Hexblade 5/Dread Pirate 10|

+17

|

+7

|

+9

|

+8

|Appraise 8, Profession (Sailor) 18, Swim 4, Use Rope 15, Intimidate 18, Hide 12, Move Silently 12, Concentration 4|--|Cha +2, Draining Touch, Ghost Skills +6, Turn Resistance +4

20th|Ghost 2/Hexblade 5/Dread Pirate 10/Ghost Faced Killer 1|

+18

|

+7

|

+9

|

+8

|Appraise 8, Profession (Sailor) 19, Swim 4, Use Rope 15, Intimidate 19, Hide 13, Move Silently 13, Concentration 4|--|Ghost Step 1/Day[/table]

Spells per day/Spells Known
{table=head]Level|0lvl|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th|9th

1st|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

2nd|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

3rd|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

4th|-|2*/2**|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

5th|-|2/2|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

6th|-|2/2|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

7th|-|2/2|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

8th|-|2/2|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

9th|-|2/2|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

10th|-|2/2|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

11th|-|2/2|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

12th|-|2/2|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

13th|-|2/2|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

14th|-|2/2|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

15th|-|2/2|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

16th|-|2/2|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

17th|-|2/2|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

18th|-|2/2|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

19th|-|2/2|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

20th|-|2/2|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-[/table]
*: Spells per day.
**: Spells known.

Spell List: Alarm, Arcane Mark, Augment Familiar, Charm Person, Detect Magic, Disguise Self, Entropic Shield, Expeditious Retreat, Identify, Light, Magic Aura, Magic Weapon, Mount, Phantom Threat, Prestidigitation, Protection From Evil/Chaos/Law/Good, Read Magic, Sleep, Hideous Laughter, Undetectable Alignment, and Unseen Servant.

Attributes

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Beginning: Strength 14, Dexterity 16, Constitution 10, Intelligence 10, Wisdom 10, Charisma 16
20th Level: Strength 16 (+1 at fourth, and eighth), Dexterity 19 (+1 at twelfth, sixteenth and twentieth), Constitution --, Intelligence 10, Wisdom 10, Charisma 20

Build Theory

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A lot of the abilities of the Dread Pirate are charisma based, and wonderfully flavorful. One of my favorite “types” of pirates are the ghostly kind. There is some strange interesting mysteriousness of the great ghostly ship, populated by little more than wisps of memory and thoughts, persistent even after death.

One of the many interesting options for entry, Hexblade works quite well with the flavor of a ghostly pirate, cursing his enemies. My only problem with the class in this case is the lack of uses of the Hex ability, and no feat or anything to increase their usage, which seems like a lack of foresight on the part of Wizards of the Coast, since they seem to have a feat that progresses uses for pretty much every other ability that is usable a certain number of times per day, but hey, nothing to be done. I went with the Ghost class because it allowed me to avoid some of the pitfalls of a regular ghost, and that last level just really isn’t worth it. That level of Ghost Faced Killer is not very useful, but it certainly is flavorful, and there aren’t really any other classes that could be used in the same slot.

Tactics

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The most common tactic for this build is to intimidate a target if they are not immune to fear (with a +33 bonus to the Check at level 20, without items). If there are too many enemies, the use of Frightful Moan is advised. Against opponents who are immune to fear, Draining Touch is used at higher levels, and the Hexblade’s Curse is used at lower levels. Melee attacks are used as a last resort.

Character

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Captain Ironbones had lived his life well. He had raided most every settlement west of Cendiral, and he had bedded most every wench thereabouts as well. He had lived his life well. But he had had it all taken from him. All gone. He was a captain, a man of his crew. He was beloved, his curses destroying his opponent’s ships, his crew working hard under his guidance. They hadn’t had much. But they have lived, and lived well.

But then his first mate, Two-toed Rend had gone and messed it all up. He had killed the Old Man in the middle of a raid. He had killed him by stabbing in the back, stabbing him and ending his life too short. To damn short.

Ironbones hadn’t given up. He came back. He found his crew and he made them his own. He remade the ship, this time as ghostly as his pale flesh. He had found everything he needed, but he still felt a strange blood thirst. He needed to kill, to destroy, and to pillage and lay waste. He needed to find those who had wronged him in life.

But even with the pillaging, he couldn’t find any rest. He stole, and killed, and maimed and murdered, he destroyed and decimated, and he found no peace. He found more followers, more and more joined the ranks of his crew. And he kept on destroying.

He sacked city after city. He killed all that stood in his way. Soon he had control of a ship teeming with ruffians and vagabonds, and he still grew restless. His eye was always on the horizon, and his wanderlust lead to quite a few attempted mutinies. Unfortunately for those involved, the Captain was not the easiest to kill. He survived and brutally killed all who stood in his way.

He tires of his life, but he cannot die. He holds rulers and cities at knife point, takes what he wants, but he cannot find what he is looking for. So he will continue looking, in his great flying ship. He will continue seeking, until he finds his peace.

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Captain Ironbones
NE/Male/Undead (Augmented Human)/ [Ghost 2/Hexblade 5/Dread Pirate 3]
Init +4, Senses: Listen +0, Spot +0
Languages Common
------------------------------------------------
AC 21, touch 21, flat-footed 17 (+4 Dex, +7 Def)
hp 70 hp (10d12 HD)
Fort +2, Ref +4, Will +5
------------------------------------------------
Speed 30 ft. (6 squares); Fly 30 ft. (Perfect)
Melee Standard Dagger +14 melee (1d4+2, 19-20/x2, +1d6 SA), Full Attack: Daggers +12/12/+7 melee (1d4+2, 19-20/x2, +1d6 SA)
Base Atk +8, Grp +11
Combat Gear 2 +1 Ghost Touch Daggers
Spells Known 1st: Entropic Shield, Expeditious Retreat.
Supernatural Abilities Frightful Moan
-----------------------------------------------
Abilities Str 16, Dex 20, Con --, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 24
SQ Mettle
Feats Able Learner, Skill Focus (Intimidate), Weapon Finesse, Quick Draw
Skills Appraise +8, Profession (Sailor) +11, Swim +7, Use Rope +15, Intimidate +23
Possessions Cloak of Charisma +4, Gloves of Dexterity +4

[gbprime]

Guys, I'm sorry but I missed a contestant. I'm posting his build late and updating the first post with all the builds.

Question... this build uses two levels of "ghost". What book is that from? Ghostwalk? (Which conveniently I don't have with me...)

[Cieyrin]

Question... this build uses two levels of "ghost". What book is that from? Ghostwalk? (Which conveniently I don't have with me...)

It appears to be from this Savage Progression article: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040117a

[gbprime]

It appears to be from this Savage Progression article: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040117a

So it does. Thanks.

[OMG PONIES]

Can you use savage progressions that way? I thought that you had to take all levels of the progression and, just as importantly, couldn't take any other classes until you did so.

[T.G. Oskar]

Can you use savage progressions that way? I thought that you had to take all levels of the progression and, just as importantly, couldn't take any other classes until you did so.

Quite true - quoting from Savage Species:

A monster character using these rules may not multiclass until it completes the full progression in its monster class. This rule keeps characters from gaining the benefits of a monster’s type and then quickly switching to a standard class.

By RAW, if taking the Ghost template class, you have to take it to it's full completion, as per the Savage Species rules (unless it has been errata'ed). The idea of "developing its powers slowly" is that you spread that out in 5 levels instead of getting the LA all at once. So, while you might enter as a ghost after 1st level (because you're acquiring a template and the rules aren't strict on what you can be anyways), you have to take the progression to its fullest extent, making it at most Ghost 5/Hexblade 5/Dread Pirate 10.

Technically, the build as presented might work, but it requires him to go full Ghost (all 5 levels) and then do LA buy-off to get one LA reduced. This can't be done (as far as I know) with a monster class, so he's limited to 5 levels, hence his last level would place him right at ECL 21st, which would invalidate the build.

However, I leave it to the judges to determine whether it's viable or not. The intention clearly states that he took the levels to bypass some of the nuances of the Ghost template, but one thing is to take the template and probably benefit from LA buyoff to take an entire class (which is intended to allow people to play their favorite race from level 1).

[Cieyrin]

Can you use savage progressions that way? I thought that you had to take all levels of the progression and, just as importantly, couldn't take any other classes until you did so.

A monster character using these rules may not multiclass until it completes the full progression in its monster class. This rules keeps characters from gaining the benefits of a monster's type and then quickly switch to a standard class.

RAW seems pretty clear on that front.

EDIT: ninja'd

[gbprime]

By RAW, if taking the Ghost template class, you have to take it to it's full completion, as per the Savage Species rules (unless it has been errata'ed). The idea of "developing its powers slowly" is that you spread that out in 5 levels instead of getting the LA all at once. So, while you might enter as a ghost after 1st level (because you're acquiring a template and the rules aren't strict on what you can be anyways), you have to take the progression to its fullest extent, making it at most Ghost 5/Hexblade 5/Dread Pirate 10.

Actually, reading up on it, the template classes online and the Savage Species differ significantly on that rule.

From this source... http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a

Characters are not required to complete all the levels of a given template class in uninterrupted succession. For example, a character who takes a level of wereboar could then take a level of fighter and a level of rogue (or any other combination of other class levels) before taking another level of wereboar. A character must still take the first level of wereboar before taking the second, just as with a normal class.

So the build CAN split those levels up however the author sees fit. Nor does it say anywhere that all levels of the template class must be taken, also unlike Savage Species.

So... legal to do. I'll see how it scores IMO shortly.

[OMG PONIES]

Interesting...I'll have to take a look at those template classes. It seems like there might be all sorts of fun ways to break them.

[Cartigan]

Actually, reading up on it, the template classes online and the Savage Species differ significantly on that rule.

From this source... http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a



So the build CAN split those levels up however the author sees fit. Nor does it say anywhere that all levels of the template class must be taken, also unlike Savage Species.

So... legal to do. I'll see how it scores IMO shortly.

I think that is similar the rule for bloodlines in UA.

[Cieyrin]

I think that is similar the rule for bloodlines in UA.

Similar only in that there are XP consequences if you don't take bloodline levels when it's mandated. Template classes can be taken whenever and however, though I'd assume multiclass penalties apply as normal.

[gbprime]

Judging update... 4 builds done, 5 to go. Expect results on Saturday.

[OMG PONIES]

Faster, boy, faster!

[Urpriest]

Do Hexblades get Appraise?