Warhammer 40K Tabletop XII: "Now in Rapid Fire range!"

[Hawkfrost000]

go go gadget, finecast review!

so i dropped by my FLGS at about noon, an hour after they opened, to find the one person there painting his grey knights. my store only had a couple of finecast models, obviously not wanting to invest to heavily if it went bust (they also have a lot of metal minis that they probably didn't want to get rid of) anyway i was lucky enough to find that they had the model i wanted, a Succubus.

after opening it i was impressed with the quality of the model, a lot of the intricate details of the Succubus's armor are very well rendered. however there were bubbles, lots of bubbles. 4 on the model itself, her nose and all the spikes on the armor over her left quadrocep. there are also two on the agoniser, luckily i planned on replacing it with a blast pistol.

my first impression of Finecast is pretty positive, it looks pretty good. if they get the problems with bubbles ironed out then it will be fantastic.

DM

[Cheesegear]

In fairness I dunno how much supply they had: with the old figures they probably had a lot of stored product whereas having changed to a new product

I understand that they had around three-five of everything.

Lelith Hesperax was the first to sell out, so I'm told. Go figure?
...Pun not intended.

after opening it i was impressed with the quality of the model, a lot of the intricate details of the Succubus's armor are very well rendered. however there were bubbles, lots of bubbles. 4 on the model itself, her nose and all the spikes on the armor over her left quadrocep. there are also two on the agoniser, luckily i planned on replacing it with a blast pistol.

I ended up getting the Incubi box as it was one of the only things left in the DE range still around. Still disappointed that there's only set poses for them. But, they're very, very fantastic models.

No bubbles. My favourite part about the whole thing is that I don't need to prime potentially lose detail when undercoating anymore.

[Turcano]

The store I go to only got one of each miniature, and I didn't get there in time to get the Terminator Librarian like I wanted, so I got an Empire Captain instead. The model I got was in very good condition; there were almost no flash or mold lines and there are only a couple of small bubbles on the underside of the hammer where the vent was cut off. There's still a small amount of conversion left to do, but I'm impressed, at least with the model I got.

[Jair Barik]

Some Finecast reviews from me....

Got in early to make sure I picked up at the very least the model I was after (Astorath). First in the store so managed to get him and also decided to get the techmarine box.

First things first over both kits (6 models) I think I only found one bubble and that is on one of the servo arms at a place I didn't initially notice.

Assembling Astorath there was good points and bad points. His scrolls wouldn't slot into the base and despite much cutting by the time I did manage to get him to slot in one of the scrolls had snapped slightly near the bottom (oops). Thankfully this glued back together fine and didn't seem to weaken the stability at all. The body attatched to the scrolls incredibly easily, anyone who has seen the model will likely realise how hard this would have been with metal as the hseer weight would probably cause him to fall off. Hands glued on fine and so did the wings after a couple of tries. He is now fully painted and my only real complaint is how bendy he felt at times. Painting the axe I kept worrying I might snap it off.

So my purchases were all fine, happy with the models, they are beautifully detailed and painted and assembled well...

I did however spend a lot of the day in the store painting and saw some other less satisfactory results of fine cast.

1-Wrong pieces. In all my time in the hobby I have seen a single metal kit with the wrong parts, a boss Snikrot without a head. Yesterday I saw two. A fellowship of the ring with two Frodos no Sam and a Marneus Calgar without any legs.
2-Bubbles and broken kits. Somebody else opened an Astorath kit with the axe head detatched from the handle, having opened mine I can safely attest that is not how it comes. The person next to me opened all 3 Hive Tyrant kits. He only bought one though. Effectively having opened his first he found the pieces didn't actually fit together, also there were bubbles and certain pieces were bent at the wrong angles. He needed to open both the stores other kits before they finally found him one that was alright. A commander dante model had bubbles in the elbow and the holster.

So in general I'm happy with what I got but I think I'll make sure to open any finecast purchases in store so I can check them over for problems before headed home. Larger modles do seem more problematic than small ones.

Finally a new game from GW we found out about yesterday!
Marneus Calgar bowling/dice! Yes now that the big lump of a modelstays together you can use the lord of the ultra smurfs to do all sorts of things without having to use him in games! Chuck him at the fellowship of the ring, who can knock the most down in one throw? Paint numbers on his various sides and use him as a dice! Chuck him across the room just because you can!

[lord_khaine]

So, with my reaper exarch usualy dying in round 1 or 2, i desided to try out a unit of scorpions instead.

Unfortunately i then discovered an error in my army list, that meant i had overlooked paying for a wave serpent

Here is then the redone armylist.

Spoiler

Show

TAK, (Avatar).
Seer Robin the brave (super farseer).

9 Harlequins with kisses, including troupe master and seer.
9 Scorpions, with Exarch, Power fist.
5 Fire Dragons

10 guardians with Missile launcer.
10 guardians without.
10 dire avengers, exarch, bladestorm, dual catapult

1 Wraithlord, Brightlance and missile.

1 Wave serpent, Scatter laser and Star engine.
1 Wave serpent, Scatter laser.

This is more or less the units i have atm, so though i would like advice on improvements, please keep suggestions for replacements to 1 unit, since i would have to both buy and paint any new additions to the army.

Strategy

Spoiler

Show

My plan is to have the Scorpions in the Serpent, together with my farseer.
They will then together with the Avatar and Wraithlord form the central core of my army, where the use of dual fortune will grant them resilience, and allow them to be the anvil of my army.

Close by them the harlequins will be running around, waiting for something to get out of their transport and be doomed, so they can charge in and finish it off, before running away again.

The Dragons will be on the opposite flank of the harlequins, waiting for a chance to melta something important down.

The Avengers will be kept in reserve, where they will be safe.

When they finaly enter the battlefield, then its my general experience thats there is a doomed target within their range.

If the enemy has to many power weapons moving down towards me, or is hiding something fragile and important behind his lines, then i have the option of running off to the harlequins with my farseer, while the crazy scorpions engage the Star Engines! and fly down behind enemy lines.

Here again suggestions would be welcome, even if its just calling me fool or madman, as long as you explain your reasoning for doing so

edit, fixed error in army list

[Kzickas]

Why aren't you spamming guardian jetbikes? They're a near instant win in 2 out of 3 missions. All eldar armies should have at least 4 units

[Cheesegear]

Why aren't you spamming guardian jetbikes? They're a near instant win in 2 out of 3 missions. All eldar armies should have at least 4 units

I believe that most Eldar players don't do this because of the currency cost involved.

[Kzickas]

proxies are your friend

[Closet_Skeleton]

proxies are your friend

A lot of people aren't happy if you proxy things every game.

[Penguinizer]

How viable are Meganob based armies? I've been trying to think of a summer scratchbuild project.

Here's what I had in mind. It's based on what I read off of a codex I borrowed from a friend of mine so I could have some points values wrong.

Spoiler

Show

HQ:
Warboss, Mega Armor, Cyborg Body, Attack Squig, Bosspole. 130
Warboss, Mega Armor, Cyborg Body, Attack Squig, Bosspole. 130

Elite:
5x Meganobz, Kombi Scorcha, Battlewagon with Deffrolla, Grot Riggers, and Kannon. 330

Troops:
5x Meganobz, Kombi Scorcha, Battlewagon with Deffrolla, Grot Riggers, and Kannon. 330

5x Meganobz, Kombi Scorcha, Battlewagon with Deffrolla, Grot Riggers, and Kannon. 330

12x Boyz, Big Shoota, Nob with Bosspole, Trukk. 127 (Largely for objective camping)

12x Boyz, Big Shoota, Nob with Bosspole, Trukk. 127 (Largely for objective camping)

EDIT: Split up the groups so there are a few more targets to shoot at, forcing some split fire.

[Ninja Chocobo]

Also, how hard is it, really, to kill like six models T3(4) models with 3+ armour/cover saves?
Even four units of such?

How viable are Meganob based armies? I've been trying to think of a summer scratchbuild project.

Lots of people don't like Meganobz. I do.

That said, that's way too many Meganobz. You want units of five, maybe? Especially with the Warboss in there.

e: also take the hell out of Bosspoles on your Warbosses.

[Erloas]

Here is then the redone armylist.

Spoiler

Show

TAK, (Avatar).
Seer Robin the brave (super farseer).

9 Harlequins with kisses, including troupe master and seer.
9 Scorpions, with Exarch, Power fist.
5 Fire Dragons

10 guardians with Missile launcer.
10 guardians without.

1 Wraithlord, Brightlance and missile.

1 Wave serpent, Scatter laser and Star engine.
1 Wave serpent, Scatter laser.

This is more or less the units i have atm, so though i would like advice on improvements, please keep suggestions for replacements to 1 unit, since i would have to both buy and paint any new additions to the army.

Guardian squads must take a heavy weapon, and I don't see any reason why you wouldn't, so you would need to find another 5/10 points for a cannon or laser for them.
Otherwise I would run Dire Avengers over guardians, because if you aren't using the heavy weapon then the avengers are significantly better at doing the same thing. Your strategy mentions avengers, when I think you must mean guardians, so one of the two is off.

I suppose it depends on your local group, but with so many MEQ around I like banshees over scorpions, especially if you've already got the farseer (doom) support and wave serpent. The primary advantage of scorpions is that they do what they do without needing that support so come in much cheaper, which is lost here. Scorpions are the way to go if you face a lot of hordes for sure. I could see banshees being good replacements for either the scorpions or the harlequins, and I always thought the harlequins where a bit expensive for what they do, but they are interesting.

I also love jetbikes and would never go without them, but I was lucky enough to pick up quite a few when they had the great apocalypse packs with them, otherwise they are expensive.

As a side note, you have very few troops a 1500ish point list. I could see that being an issue much of the time but not something you can fix without changing the list fairly substantially.

[Craftworld]

So, with my reaper exarch usualy dying in round 1 or 2, i desided to try out a unit of scorpions instead.

Unfortunately i then discovered an error in my army list, that meant i had overlooked paying for a wave serpent

Here is then the redone armylist.

Spoiler

Show

TAK, (Avatar).
Seer Robin the brave (super farseer).

9 Harlequins with kisses, including troupe master and seer.
9 Scorpions, with Exarch, Power fist.
5 Fire Dragons

10 guardians with Missile launcer.
10 guardians without.

1 Wraithlord, Brightlance and missile.

1 Wave serpent, Scatter laser and Star engine.
1 Wave serpent, Scatter laser.

This is more or less the units i have atm, so though i would like advice on improvements, please keep suggestions for replacements to 1 unit, since i would have to both buy and paint any new additions to the army.

Strategy

Spoiler

Show

My plan is to have the Scorpions in the Serpent, together with my farseer.
They will then together with the Avatar and Wraithlord form the central core of my army, where the use of dual fortune will grant them resilience, and allow them to be the anvil of my army.

Close by them the harlequins will be running around, waiting for something to get out of their transport and be doomed, so they can charge in and finish it off, before running away again.

The Dragons will be on the opposite flank of the harlequins, waiting for a chance to melta something important down.

The Avengers will be kept in reserve, where they will be safe.

When they finaly enter the battlefield, then its my general experience thats there is a doomed target within their range.

If the enemy has to many power weapons moving down towards me, or is hiding something fragile and important behind his lines, then i have the option of running off to the harlequins with my farseer, while the crazy scorpions engage the Star Engines! and fly down behind enemy lines.

Here again suggestions would be welcome, even if its just calling me fool or madman, as long as you explain your reasoning for doing so

From my point of view, your list seems well odd. You have the Avatar who belongs in a foot Eldar Army and yet you have Wave Serpents which belong with Mech Eldar...it all seems very schizophrenic. I wrote out a list from what you provided (with very little changes and assuming Doom, Fortune, and Spirit Stones on Seer Robin) and it came out to 1370 points.

Spoiler

Show

HQ
TAK
-155 points
Seer Robin-Doom, Fortune, Spirit Stones
-130 points

Elites
Harlequins-9, 7 Kisses, Troupe Master with Kiss, Spirit Seer(the reason for the 7 kisses is because you buy the 9 harlequins, then you get the Seer/TM, then you get the upgrades for the individual models and the Seer cannot be upgraded with a Kiss)
-244 points
Striking Scorpians-9, Exarch, Scorpian's Claw
-171 points
Fire Dragons-5
-80 points

Troops
Guardians-10, Eldar Missile Launcher
-100 points
Guardians-10, Shurikan Cannon
-85 points

Heavy Support
Wraithlord-Bright Lance, Eldar Missile Launcher
-160 points

Dedicated Transports(not sure which units were going to go where)
Wave Serpent-Scatter Lasers
-115 points
Wave Serpent-Scatter Lasers, Star Engines
-130 points

Were the Guardians that I gave the Shurikan Cannon actually Dire Avengers because if so, run them like this
Dire Avengers-10, Exarch with 2 Shurikan Catapults, Bladestorm
152 points(they kick some serious butt in this format)
For the Schizophrenicness of the list either go with more or fewer Wave Serpents to make it full mech or full foot, because something tells me that you will get better results if you go one way or the other, and Scorpians are cheaper if you buy Shadowstrike even though it costs 20 points because then the Outflank becomes their transport. Good Luck with all your future games and I hope that my spewage doesn't confuse you.

[lord_khaine]

Dam, made an error in my army list, edited it now.

Edit 2nd.

Can see i made some errors in my army list (stupid lack of sleep), so im reposting it in a more understandable format.

Spoiler

Show

HQ
TAK
-155 points
Seer Robin (eldrath)
-210 points

Elites
Harlequins-9, 8 Kisses, Troupe Master with Kiss, Spirit Seer
-248 points
Striking Scorpians-9, Exarch, Scorpian's Claw
-171 points
Fire Dragons-5
-80 points

Troops
Guardians-10, Eldar Missile Launcher
-100 points
Guardians-10, Shurikan Cannon
-85 points

Dire Avengers-9, exarch, bladestorm, dual catapult
-152 points

Heavy Support
Wraithlord-Bright Lance, Eldar Missile Launcher
-155 points

Wraithlord-Bright Lance, Eldar Missile Launcher
-155 points

Dedicated Transports
Wave Serpent-Scatter Lasers
-115 points
Wave Serpent-Scatter laser, Star Engines
-130 points

Anyway Craftworld, thanks for caching the calculating error i made in my new army list, i was wondering where the heck all my point had gone

Anyway, from what i can see you can give a spirit seer a kiss, since it says any model may replace its weapon with a kiss, and it doesnt say the seer lose his weapon.

That aside, the reason for the wave serpents is to have something to move my fire dragons around in, and to give my Seer a place to hide from those cursed calidius assasins.

But if i got rid of the wave serpents, what should i get instead then?

[Cheesegear]

proxies are your friend

No. No they aren't. Most players or clubs really don't like it when you use proxies more than once. Twice, maybe. And tournaments don't allow proxies at all. Proxies are good for one, maybe two weeks. After that, you better get spending.

[Craftworld]

Dam, made an error in my army list, edited it now.

Edit 2nd.

Can see i made some errors in my army list (stupid lack of sleep), so im reposting it in a more understandable format.

Spoiler

Show

HQ
TAK
-155 points
Seer Robin (eldrath)
-210 points

Elites
Harlequins-9, 8 Kisses, Troupe Master with Kiss, Spirit Seer
-248 points
Striking Scorpians-9, Exarch, Scorpian's Claw
-171 points
Fire Dragons-5
-80 points

Troops
Guardians-10, Eldar Missile Launcher
-100 points
Guardians-10, Shurikan Cannon
-85 points

Dire Avengers-9, exarch, bladestorm, dual catapult
-152 points

Heavy Support
Wraithlord-Bright Lance, Eldar Missile Launcher
-155 points

Wraithlord-Bright Lance, Eldar Missile Launcher
-155 points

Dedicated Transports
Wave Serpent-Scatter Lasers
-115 points
Wave Serpent-Scatter laser, Star Engines
-130 points

Anyway Craftworld, thanks for caching the calculating error i made in my new army list, i was wondering where the heck all my point had gone

Anyway, from what i can see you can give a spirit seer a kiss, since it says any model may replace its weapon with a kiss, and it doesnt say the seer lose his weapon.

That aside, the reason for the wave serpents is to have something to move my fire dragons around in, and to give my Seer a place to hide from those cursed calidius assasins.

But if i got rid of the wave serpents, what should i get instead then?

I'm not saying get rid of them (in the selling way of the meaning) but your list is kind of a half and half Eldar on Foot/Eldar in Vehicles. Probably like Erloas said earlier with more Dire Avengers (I always try to run at least one unit of them in any of my armies.) Pretty much foot Eldar you run them around your Avatar because he gives them fearless and you try to put as many bodies on the ground as possiple (pointy-eared tide?) and with mech...well you know how it is. I like the models that you have and with the models that you have I see you leaning more towards the foot Eldar end of the spectrum...although Serpents are good to carry around Eldrad in...

[Timberwolf]

No. No they aren't. Most players or clubs really don't like it when you use proxies more than once. Twice, maybe. And tournaments don't allow proxies at all. Proxies are good for one, maybe two weeks. After that, you better get spending.

Indeed, the tournament I'm playing tomorrow just made this ruling in fact, someone can't proxy terminators as Obliterators.

[PanNarrans]

I don't see any reason why a Shadowseer can't have a Harlequin's Kiss.

I agree with Lord_Khaine that Fire Dragons really don't work without a Serpent to help them get in range. There's not really any reason not to give Seer Robin a Serpent, since he can cast most of his psychic powers from inside the tank.

I would suggest googling 'hammer and anvil eldar tactics'; it's a school of thought that involves using something like this split between mechanised and footslogging units.

[Squark]

Indeed, the tournament I'm playing tomorrow just made this ruling in fact, someone can't proxy terminators as Obliterators.

The only tournament I can think of that allowed someone to use a proxy at all was one local one, where they let my friend use an unconverted carnifex as a tervigon, since the tervigon model isn't out yet.

EDIT: I was looking through GW's online catelogue to judge dedicated transport prices (to see how much I'll need to spend if a new Necron codex comes out), when I found something odd in the Blood Angels section- Land raiders are listed under troops there.

Now, I know that even normal Space Marines can take one (singular, according to the Ultrasmurfs codex) land raider as a dedicated transport for their terminators, but do the blood angels have additional access? (beyond taking one in a heavy support slot, of course)

[Klose_the_Sith]

Now, I know that even normal Space Marines can take one (singular, according to the Ultrasmurfs codex) land raider as a dedicated transport for their terminators, but do the blood angels have additional access? (beyond taking one in a heavy support slot, of course)

Two for the Vanilla codex, actually (both kinds of termies can take precisely vun), but Blood Angels can take them as dedicated transports on their assault squads which are troops.

I wish *my* assault squads could be troops, they'd almost be worth taking

[Hawkfrost000]

Also, how hard is it, really, to kill like six models T3(4) models with 3+ armour/cover saves?
Even four units of such?

how hard is it to kill 36 space marines with shooting?

quite hard when they are your lowest target priority because you have a bunch of scorpions killing your face, fire dragons melting your tanks, harlaquins killing you, two wave serpents and a wraithlord.

i have not seen them played much but when they are the only words to describe it are landslide victory.

DM

[Teln]

I wish *my* assault squads could be troops, they'd almost be worth taking

You think you've got it bad? My assault squads are troops (nicely fluffed ones, at that), and they're still not worth taking. One site said Blood Fangs are only worth it if you stuff a 15-man blob of them into a Crusader, and even then they need a HQ* (preferably a Wolf Priest) attached to keep them in check!

[Hawkfrost000]

Now, I know that even normal Space Marines can take one (singular, according to the Ultrasmurfs codex) land raider as a dedicated transport for their terminators, but do the blood angels have additional access? (beyond taking one in a heavy support slot, of course)

IIRC C:SM (if thats what you meant by ultrasmurfs codes) can take 3, one for each heavy support slot as well as one for one squad of terminators and one for one squad of assault terminators.

however BA can take one as a dedicated deep striking transport for any squad that can take them. (guess who wrote the BA 'dex )

this is just a pet peeve, but it irritates me when people refer to vanilla marines as the Ultrasmurfs codex. really its not. my chapter is lead my a half machine messiah whose alligience lies with the Void Dragon.

take that Gulliman

DM

[Cheesegear]

but Blood Angels can take them as dedicated transports on their anything.

Fixed it for you. Being a Dedicated Transport, any unit that can take one, may choose a Land Raider.

One site said Blood Fangs are only worth it if you stuff a 15-man blob of them into a Crusader, and even then they need a HQ* (preferably a Wolf Priest) attached to keep them in check!

A Wolf Guard is fine too. Which is not an HQ.
But, other than that, it's all true.

[Nameless Ghost]

guess who wrote the BA 'dex

Guess who wrote Codex: Space Marines.

[Tarinaky]

Just spotted some funki-ness with Space Marine Biker squads:

The rules for combat squads explicitly mentions 10 man squads splitting into two 5-man squads. Biker Squads are listed as having Combat Squads as a rule, but they have the ability to take an Attack Bike to bring them up to 11 models.

Not only this, but the rules for Bikes in the main Rulebook explicitly says that Attack Bikes have two men - allowing them to fire both weapons and not just one. This further complicates the issue...

Does this mean, in order to combat-squad I need to take 9 Bikers + 1 Attack Bike or 8 Bikers + 1 Attack Bike? Or does the Attack Bike not count at all?

Anyone know if there's a clarification?

[Nameless Ghost]

Just spotted some funki-ness with Space Marine Biker squads:

The rules for combat squads explicitly mentions 10 man squads splitting into two 5-man squads. Biker Squads are listed as having Combat Squads as a rule, but they have the ability to take an Attack Bike to bring them up to 11 models.

Not only this, but the rules for Bikes in the main Rulebook explicitly says that Attack Bikes have two men - allowing them to fire both weapons and not just one. This further complicates the issue...

Does this mean, in order to combat-squad I need to take 9 Bikers + 1 Attack Bike or 8 Bikers + 1 Attack Bike? Or does the Attack Bike not count at all?

Anyone know if there's a clarification?

The bike squad begins at 3 models strong. You can add an additional 5 bikes, and also an Attack bike, for a total of 10 Marines. You treat the Attack bike as 2 Marines when combat squadding, forming one unit of 5, and one unit of 3 with the Attack bike. From page 68, under the Bike Squad entry (no, that's not from memory, my codex is a foot away ).

[Ninja Chocobo]

how hard is it to kill 36 space marines with shooting?

thirty-six?!

Okay, let's ignore for now the point that you're spending some 850 points on Marines with worse shooting and worse combat capabilities. With six units of six models on 60mm bases you're going to run out of places to put them. If they ever get in assault they die horribly so you have to keep that in mind as well, so if your opponent has a decent combat unit on an objective you're not even going to steal it effectively.
If your opponent's moving up the field, which they will after destroying your only units that deal damage, there's not going to be enough board to keep you out of assault.

I've seen the jetbike army played too, and my only words are "horrible slaughter".

[Craftworld]

thirty-six?!

Okay, let's ignore for now the point that you're spending some 850 points on Marines with worse shooting and worse combat capabilities. With six units of six models on 60mm bases you're going to run out of places to put them. If they ever get in assault they die horribly so you have to keep that in mind as well, so if your opponent has a decent combat unit on an objective you're not even going to steal it effectively.
If your opponent's moving up the field, which they will after destroying your only units that deal damage, there's not going to be enough board to keep you out of assault.

I've seen the jetbike army played too, and my only words are "horrible slaughter".

You see the Eldar as one who doesn't play them or doesn't play them right. The Eldar are like a symphony. Each must play to cover the others weaknesses. They specialize in one area of combat and to be frank in that one area of combat they are amazing. You can't just through a unit of Avengers into melee because they will get destroyed by anything other than Guardsmen and maybe Marines. I have seen Jetbike armies win and lose, it just depends on the General because you can give a truly amazing list to a crap player and a crap list to a good player and the good player still has a good chance of coming out on top. I don't want to seem like I am yelling but please learn how an army works before saying that they suck.
After my last tournament, one of the best players in the state said
"Eldar are a pros army, they need a lot of experience to use properly"
I took those words to heart and learned from them. Guess what, won or tied my last two games.

[Klose_the_Sith]

You think you've got it bad? My assault squads are troops (nicely fluffed ones, at that), and they're still not worth taking. One site said Blood Fangs are only worth it if you stuff a 15-man blob of them into a Crusader, and even then they need a HQ* (preferably a Wolf Priest) attached to keep them in check!

The 'madness' of young wolves doesn't seem to bad to me, seeing as all it means is that you assault any enemy that's within 6" during your movement phase. I'm just as likely to forego the pistol rounds anyway, myself.

The real problem I see with the non-bangle assault marines is lacking any serious hitting power, yet still costing ~200 points apiece. You're better off just meching up and it's no fun taking a unit that doesn't do anything special anyway.

Besides, I have no pity for you and your Grey Hunters