Warhammer 40K Tabletop XII: "Now in Rapid Fire range!"

[Closet_Skeleton]

You're kind of supposed to use elites choices in kill team. Just not termintors.

[Nameless Ghost]

I don't see any problem with people using Terminators in Kill Team. Mathematically it's the same number of wounds you need to force as to kill 10 Marines (twice as likely to save; half as many to kill). Storm bolters are good and Power fists kill most things you come up against, but you don't get heavy or special weapons. Terminators probably come out a bit ahead, but they kinda should do.

My usual Kill Team list is:

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Crisis suit w/ Plasma, Missile, Multi-tracker: Hit & Run
Crisis suit w/ Plasma, Missile, Multi-tracker: Feel no Pain
Crisis suit w/ Plasma, Twin-linked missile, Hard-wired multi-tracker: Eternal Warrior

[Craftworld]

Even if there are no vehicles, you should still be having fun. I still need to see if it works with one Raider, let alone 10. Remember, when you ram a vehicle, you also take a hit as well. If you're moving even against a Rhino with at least 24" move, you're taking a S10 hit to your Raider. And, as everyone knows, Raiders are made out of paper.

This is why I love the Wave Serpent's Energy Field rule. Hehe, I tank shock your Land Raider 24" for a Strength 10 hit and I only get a strength 8 hit back, hahahaha!

[Ninja Chocobo]

This is why I love the Wave Serpent's Energy Field rule. Hehe, I tank shock your Land Raider 24" for a Strength 10 hit and I only get a strength 8 hit back, hahahaha!

Er
Since when is a Ram a "ranged attack"?

[Sila Prirode]

Honestly, Necrons are bigger problem then Terminators in Kill Team, you can field 11 of them, and with their statline, WBB and not much power weapons or AP 2, it's pretty hard to kill 5 of them before they manage to roll some 6's on to hit.
We play a lot of Kill Team over here, and best things are the one with multiple choices (Chosen CSM, Broadside with Firewarriors as backup), or strong hitting ones (Pathfinders in cover with Striking Scorpions watching for anyone moving close). Only thing Termies have going for them is Invulnerable save, because AP 2 is going to hit them sometimes, and that can is not so hot when you have 4+ cover most of the time.

Also, my Kill Team list:

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8 Chosen Chaos Marines
2 Power Weapon
2 Flamer
1 Plasma Gun

[Ricky S]

The best kill teams that I have seen recently are either Grey knight kill teams or Space wolf kill teams. The reason being is that they can take a variety of special weapons. The grey knights kill teams are particularly nasty because they all have force weapons.

I wouldn't worry about the necrons. Sure they are tough but they really don't have hitting power in shooting and they suck in close combat.

[Winterwind]

Honestly, Necrons are bigger problem then Terminators in Kill Team, you can field 11 of them, and with their statline, WBB and not much power weapons or AP 2, it's pretty hard to kill 5 of them before they manage to roll some 6's on to hit.

And them rolling 6s on To Hit is supposed to accomplish what, exactly?

[Hootman]

And them rolling 6s on To Hit is supposed to accomplish what, exactly?

Perhaps Bodez is confusing Gauss with the special ability of Tyranid Gargoyles, who actually DO wound on a to-hit roll of 6 (and then have to roll to-wound for anything else). FYI, Bodez (and anyone else who doesn't know), Gauss weapons only auto-wound on TO-WOUND rolls of 6. It's so they can damage T8+ without needing to use a different unit.

...Is this an epidemic amonst Necron players, or are people just talking without having read...anything? The Necron played at my FLGS apparently claimed the same two weeks ago against my Nid-bro, and it's really too bad I was playing a game at the time, because apparently he used a lot of suspicious rules.

By which I mean blatant falsehoods. If he'd been playing me, or I hadn't been busy losing to some Deathwings, I'd have called him on all of that BS he was spouting.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Kill team you say?

7 Kabalite Trueborn
Dracon with ghostplate armour and agoniser and preferred enemy
4 blasters, 1 with tank hunter
2 splinter cannons, 1 with stealth
plasma grenades

[Tarinaky]

Two theories pop to mind:
1) Cheating is the only means Necrons have of finding a fair fight.
2) If they lrn2 read and understand the rules do you think they'd still be playing Necrons? :p

By which I mean blatant falsehoods. If he'd been playing me, or I hadn't been busy losing to some Deathwings, I'd have called him on all of that BS he was spouting.

[Hootman]

Two theories pop to mind:
1) Cheating is the only means Necrons have of finding a fair fight.
2) If they lrn2 read and understand the rules do you think they'd still be playing Necrons? :p

Woah, now, bro/sis/nonstandard-sibling-abbreviation, no need to knock the Necron players as a whole. I'm more than willing to assume that Necron players are no more likely to cheat than any other faction, though perhaps they are slightly more likely to have misconceptions regarding their own rules.

And, honestly, if I had the money? I would TOTALLY have a Necron force kicking around. With Necrons, any conversions and such you make are done purely for your own enjoyment, simply because your units come with no real options. A fully magnetized Necron Lord with pieces for all (or most) of the options he has, so you can always see what you're running with? Pinch me, I'm dreaming. Everything else is just for fun.

Plus, Necrons are NASTY if you know what you're doing with them, and even if you don't they can still be really tenacious. Just ask Cheesegear, he wrote up a whole big thing about Necron units a while back, gives some great advice. ((Is it just me, or has that post come up a lot recently? Maybe we should be adding that to the First Post, so we can point people with questions there instead of always looking it up?))

[Squark]

Woah, now, bro/sis/nonstandard-sibling-abbreviation, no need to knock the Necron players as a whole. I'm more than willing to assume that Necron players are no more likely to cheat than any other faction, though perhaps they are slightly more likely to have misconceptions regarding their own rules.

And, honestly, if I had the money? I would TOTALLY have a Necron force kicking around. With Necrons, any conversions and such you make are done purely for your own enjoyment, simply because your units come with no real options. A fully magnetized Necron Lord with pieces for all (or most) of the options he has, so you can always see what you're running with? Pinch me, I'm dreaming. Everything else is just for fun.

Plus, Necrons are NASTY if you know what you're doing with them, and even if you don't they can still be really tenacious. Just ask Cheesegear, he wrote up a whole big thing about Necron units a while back, gives some great advice. ((Is it just me, or has that post come up a lot recently? Maybe we should be adding that to the First Post, so we can point people with questions there instead of always looking it up?))

Err... I'm pretty sure the Necron Lord and Necron Destroyer lord aren't interchangable, so all that's left as far as visible wargear choices are warscythe/staff of light (go with the warscythe every time), and resurection orb/hand (If you're not taking the res orb, you're doing something wrong)

[Hootman]

Err... I'm pretty sure the Necron Lord and Necron Destroyer lord aren't interchangable, so all that's left as far as visible wargear choices are warscythe/staff of light (go with the warscythe every time), and resurection orb/hand (If you're not taking the res orb, you're doing something wrong)

In theory they COULD be, if I had a lot of time and a nice hacksaw to dedicate to the project. And, y'know, the actual pieces.

As for the rest, I was merely suggesting it could be cool to fabricate arms with all of the different bits of wargear on them, like having him throwing a Veil, or having arcane clockwork pauldrons for a Chronometron. All magnetized, of course. These would mostly be something created for fun and presentation; I know half of the wargear options for the Lord are situational or useless.

Honestly, I'd probably try to integrate the Rez Orb into his body, so I couldn't NOT take it.

[Cheesegear]

I'm more than willing to assume that Necron players are no more likely to cheat than any other faction, though perhaps they are slightly more likely to have misconceptions regarding their own rules.

I've found the biggest misconception with Necron rules is that AP<3 weapons ignore We'll Be Back. They totally don't. The rules stipulate that it's only in Assault when not having a save ignores WBB.

The other is that people think 'it's like FNP so AP<2 will kill them.' WBB is not FNP. WBB poops on FNP. WBB is what FNP wishes it was.

Just ask Cheesegear, he wrote up a whole big thing about Necron units a while back, gives some great advice.

Well, it's all, really, one big fallacy. Necrons are bad. What my write-up of Necrons does is dismiss a couple of reasons why people think Necrons are bad (i.e; Pariahs are terrible because they aren't Necrons), and, instead, focuses on what does make them good, and how you can possibly win if you take particular units and only those particular units.

I believe Necrons have one good list. Winterwind swears up and down on another list. And I tend to...Well, I don't agree with everything he says, but I do pay attention to him.

(Is it just me, or has that post come up a lot recently? Maybe we should be adding that to the First Post, so we can point people with questions there instead of always looking it up?)

We've had three or four people asking for Necron advice in about as many weeks. So, that's probably why.

[Winterwind]

I believe Necrons have one good list. Winterwind swears up and down on another list. And I tend to...Well, I don't agree with everything he says, but I do pay attention to him.

Awww, I'm feeling deeply honoured.

I don't play Necrons myself, I'm only relaying things I read and heard from other sources. I think I should look it up one of these days and transcribe it in more detail, with explanations, reasoning and all of that, then we could have a more informed discussion about that other list; only, I'm afraid I won't have the time for that today, and after that I'll be gone till Tuesday... so that will have to wait until next week.

[Razaele]

Hmm. Would Grey Knight Terminators be better suited to ride around in a Storm Raven than Strike Squads?

[Timberwolf]

Hmm. Would Grey Knight Terminators be better suited to ride around in a Storm Raven than Strike Squads?

Now that is a very interesting question.

Generally speaking, the Stormraven, if you're using it as a transport instead of a straight gunship, has the capacity to unload your nastiest assault unit right where it needs to be, with all the advantages that having the charge means. If the Terminators are that unit then I'd put them in it rather than deep strike them or have them footslog.

On the other hand, in a list where everyone has power weapons as standard, I personally feel it comes down to this.

GKT's will be more durable, especially against enemies with few power weapons, ordinary GK's have the advantage of numbers. Without access to the codex, I couldn't tell you whether the extra numbers make up for a poorer individual statline, or improve on the number of attacks or whether the PAGK's get an invulnerable save (They get everything else though) but, applying a little logic and assumptions, I can come up with this.

Obviously, please see this for the work of assumption and best guess hypothesis that it is, as there's no way most people would fit out a GK's squad like this.

Unless Matt Ward had an aneurysm immediately before statting GKT's, they have 2 attacks base, as per Terminators. A Stormraven can carry 6 at the most, 5 if you have an IC with them. Best casing it and assuming a squad of 6, that means 12 attacks base, 18 on the charge, 24 if they all have 2 Close combat weapons.

PAGK's have 1 attack base, but a Stormraven can carry full squad of 10 plus an Independent character, who'll I'll leave out of the equation for now. Each marine will therefore get 2 attacks on the charge, 3 if they have 2 CC weapons and charge. That means 10 attacks base, 20 charging and 30 if they charge and have 2 CC weapons for each and every marine which I believe they can do.

With identical strength and WS, I'd say you're more likely to nuke the unit straight off the map with the PAGK's but that is assuming you go first, everything hits and wounds and no saves are made.

Assuming normal tabletop events occur, you'll be at least 2 turns killing the unit and then the extra durability of the Terminators will begin to swing the pendulum their way, especially if PAGK's don't get an invulnerable save. If the combat goes on longer than a single round, you have more attacks and way better saves with the Terminators.

I'd say go for them.

[Sila Prirode]

Perhaps Bodez is confusing Gauss with the special ability of Tyranid Gargoyles, who actually DO wound on a to-hit roll of 6 (and then have to roll to-wound for anything else). FYI, Bodez (and anyone else who doesn't know), Gauss weapons only auto-wound on TO-WOUND rolls of 6. It's so they can damage T8+ without needing to use a different unit.

Actually, I haven't read Necron codex in full, and the guy who played them was first timer, so he probably got it wrong, but thanks for the clarification now

[Razaele]

Now that is a very interesting question.

Generally speaking, the Stormraven, if you're using it as a transport instead of a straight gunship, has the capacity to unload your nastiest assault unit right where it needs to be, with all the advantages that having the charge means. If the Terminators are that unit then I'd put them in it rather than deep strike them or have them footslog.

On the other hand, in a list where everyone has power weapons as standard, I personally feel it comes down to this.

GKT's will be more durable, especially against enemies with few power weapons, ordinary GK's have the advantage of numbers. Without access to the codex, I couldn't tell you whether the extra numbers make up for a poorer individual statline, or improve on the number of attacks or whether the PAGK's get an invulnerable save (They get everything else though) but, applying a little logic and assumptions, I can come up with this.

Obviously, please see this for the work of assumption and best guess hypothesis that it is, as there's no way most people would fit out a GK's squad like this.

Unless Matt Ward had an aneurysm immediately before statting GKT's, they have 2 attacks base, as per Terminators. A Stormraven can carry 6 at the most, 5 if you have an IC with them. Best casing it and assuming a squad of 6, that means 12 attacks base, 18 on the charge, 24 if they all have 2 Close combat weapons.

PAGK's have 1 attack base, but a Stormraven can carry full squad of 10 plus an Independent character, who'll I'll leave out of the equation for now. Each marine will therefore get 2 attacks on the charge, 3 if they have 2 CC weapons and charge. That means 10 attacks base, 20 charging and 30 if they charge and have 2 CC weapons for each and every marine which I believe they can do.

With identical strength and WS, I'd say you're more likely to nuke the unit straight off the map with the PAGK's but that is assuming you go first, everything hits and wounds and no saves are made.

Assuming normal tabletop events occur, you'll be at least 2 turns killing the unit and then the extra durability of the Terminators will begin to swing the pendulum their way, especially if PAGK's don't get an invulnerable save. If the combat goes on longer than a single round, you have more attacks and way better saves with the Terminators.

I'd say go for them.

Apologies, I think I left out a little too much when I asked that question. Though I do agree with the majority of your assessment, Timberwolf.

Here are the lists which I am considering.

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HQ
Librarian with Quickening, Shrouding, Might of Titan, Sanctuary [170]
Inquisitor with Rad Grenades, Psychotroke Grenades [55]
Troops
Grey Knight Strike Squad x10 with Psybolt Ammunition, Psycannons x2 [240]
Grey Knight Strike Squad x10 with Psybolt Ammunition, Psycannons x2 [240]

Fast Attack
Storm Raven with Twin-linked Multi-Melta, Twin-linked Lascannon [205]
Storm Raven with Twin-linked Multi-Melta, Twin-linked Lascannon [205]

Heavy Support
Dreadnought with Twin-linked Autocannon x2, Psybolt Ammunition [135]
Dreadnought with Twin-linked Autocannon x2, Psybolt Ammunition [135]
Dreadnought with Multi-Melta, Dreadnought Close Combat Weapon [115]

or

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HQ
Librarian with Shrouding, Might of Titan, Sanctuary [165]

Troops
Grey Knight Terminator Squad x5 Nemesis Halberds x5 [200]
Grey Knight Terminator Squad x6 Nemesis Halberds x5, Psycannon, Justicar Thawn [340]

Fast Attack
Storm Raven with Twin-linked Multi-Melta, Twin-linked Lascannon [205]
Storm Raven with Twin-linked Multi-Melta, Twin-linked Lascannon [205]

Heavy Support
Dreadnought with Twin-linked Autocannon x2, Psybolt Ammunition [135]
Dreadnought with Twin-linked Autocannon x2, Psybolt Ammunition [135]
Dreadnought with Multi-Melta, Dreadnought Close Combat Weapon [115]

Now, while I feel that Terminators with Halberds are mostly better than Strike Squads in assault, Strike Squads are so much better in shooting.

Also, am I able to give Thrawn a Psycannon? I'm leaning towards no, but I could be wrong and that would be pretty sweet. Can you imagine Thrawn getting up every turn in my opponent's deployment zone and potentially unleashing 4 Psycannon shots and 3 S6 I6 attacks?

[Timberwolf]

I'd say no on Thrawn, because upgrade characters are kind of special characters in their own right, they just don't have IC status.

To use the Stormravens to deliver Strike squads, that are better at shooting, will be to disregard half of their purpose, the idea is that your GKT's are across the board, in relative safety, chopping up the enemy while the equivalent of a flying land raider is in Twin linked multimelta range and murdering everything it can see.

If a squads better at shooting, well, there's other units that will be able to carry it better, like a Rhino with its fire points, or a Razorback, both of which are massively cheaper.

The big advantages to using a Stormraven as a transport over Rhino's and Razorbacks are it's outright speed, which confers advantage # 2, namely a cover save, while still being able to shoot a big, nasty, useful gun. It's also an assault transport with no fire points. There really is no reason to use it to carry a shooty squad when you can use it to carry an assaulting unit and have it inside a baseline camping group of Tau inside of Turn 2.

For your Strike squads, there's better, less expensive options although I do believe you're making the right decision in taking 2. I find Stormravens are a big fire magnet and taking multiples increases your chances of getting a good unit where you want it.

[Spleen Flayer]

Adore the Immortal Emperor For He is our Protector
Admire the Immortal Emperor For His Sacrifice to Mankind
Exalt the Immortal Emperor For His Strict Guidance
Revere the Immortal Emperor For His Undying Guard
Venerate the Immortal Emperor For His Holy Wisdom
Honour the Immortal Emperor For His Eternal Strength
Glorify the Immortal Emperor For His All-seeing Vision
Praise the Immortal Emperor For His Unending Rule
Hail the Immortal Emperor For He is the Lord and Master

[Penguinizer]

So, how do I kill a Fateweaver?

The thing tanked 5 Demolisher shots, 4 Leman Russ shots, a demo charge, 5 meltas, a bunch of lasguns and warp lightnings without taking one wound.

At this point, do I just blame his luck on the roll?

[Gauntlet]

With Fateweaver, you basically have 3 choices:

1) spam everything at him and hope you get lucky
2) ignore him and murder the rest of the army
3) Warscythes.

[Razaele]

I'd say no on Thrawn, because upgrade characters are kind of special characters in their own right, they just don't have IC status.

To use the Stormravens to deliver Strike squads, that are better at shooting, will be to disregard half of their purpose, the idea is that your GKT's are across the board, in relative safety, chopping up the enemy while the equivalent of a flying land raider is in Twin linked multimelta range and murdering everything it can see.

If a squads better at shooting, well, there's other units that will be able to carry it better, like a Rhino with its fire points, or a Razorback, both of which are massively cheaper.

The big advantages to using a Stormraven as a transport over Rhino's and Razorbacks are it's outright speed, which confers advantage # 2, namely a cover save, while still being able to shoot a big, nasty, useful gun. It's also an assault transport with no fire points. There really is no reason to use it to carry a shooty squad when you can use it to carry an assaulting unit and have it inside a baseline camping group of Tau inside of Turn 2.

For your Strike squads, there's better, less expensive options although I do believe you're making the right decision in taking 2. I find Stormravens are a big fire magnet and taking multiples increases your chances of getting a good unit where you want it.

Yeah, I guess giving Thawn a Psycannon would be a bit much. Oh well.

I understand your points and mostly agree with them. I do have a few things I wish to point out in order to justify my decisions:

1. I took Storm Ravens for my Strike Squads because while they aren't as good as Terminators with Halberds in assault, they still aren't bad. Combined with the Librarian and an Assault Vehicle, I could potentially charge something with 21 S6 (with 2d6 penetration) I10 Force Weapon attacks from the Strike Squad alone. I also threw in the Inquisitor since I had a spare 55 points and Psykotroke Grenades seem like good fun.

2. While Rhinos are able do to a good job of ferrying a 10 man Strike Squad, I feel that having a potential 24' move will give me a lot more leeway in deploying my Strike Squads. Their Storm Bolters/Psycannons have a range of 24', meaning they do their job best in the middle of the battlefield.

3. The fire points in the Rhino, while nice, don't really allow me to make the most out of my Psybolt Ammunition. 16 S5 AP5 shots can threaten AV11, and considering that Razorspam is all the rage in our gaming club, I think this can help a lot.

Honestly though, I still do wish that I had enough points to take a couple of Razorbacks with Lascannons/Twin-linked Plasma guns. Maybe it would be better if I drop a Psyfleman Dreadnought and the Inquisitor entirely and just replace them with 2 Razorbacks?

[DaedalusMkV]

So, how do I kill a Fateweaver?

The thing tanked 5 Demolisher shots, 4 Leman Russ shots, a demo charge, 5 meltas, a bunch of lasguns and warp lightnings without taking one wound.

At this point, do I just blame his luck on the roll?

Yeah, that should have been enough to take him out, actually. He's tough, but not that tough. Still, when it comes to Fateweaver (and Eldrad, though not to the same extent), all you can do is throw everything you've got at it and hope it's enough to wipe him out, unless you're one of those tricksy Space Marines with their Null Zones or Grey Knights with their Vindicares. Sometimes, there's just no overcoming a lucky player with a good Invulnerable Save. Like that one game of my Tau versus Nurgle CSM in which a Nurgle Daemon Prince passed 16 Armour Saves and 6 Invulnerables in a row, resulting in the complete and utter destruction of my army...

[Timberwolf]

Valid points

All perfectly fair enough, although every turn you have the Strike squads sitting in the gunship, they're not doing what you brought them for, which is shoot stuff.

Looking at your list, I'd be almost tempted to not have the strike squads in the Stormraven and deploy them where they can shoot from the word go, using the gunships as just that, straight weapons platforms and delivering the Dreadnought. Not always possible, I know but if you're having to redeploy rapidly, your initial deployment may not have been that great or you're rushing for an objective late game.

Speaking of that, you're cutting objective holding to the bare minimum here. I'd be tempted to see if there's any way of getting a third unit of Troops in. I've played Grey Knights myself a few times and they die just as well to a Vindicator as anyone else does, especially when I make 8 throws of 2+ to kill an entire squad in one shot.

Maybe you could lose a Psyrifleman and the Inquisitor, find 10 points and pick up a squad of Termis. You lose a bit of ranged fire support, but you gain some in that you can then have a Strike squad deployed ready to shoot, holding your objective, one in the Stormraven, backed by the Terminators (maybe a hammer in there if it's free, S10 is always nice), both of which are scoring units

[Penguinizer]

With Fateweaver, you basically have 3 choices:

1) spam everything at him and hope you get lucky
2) ignore him and murder the rest of the army
3) Warscythes.

I tried option 2 afterwards. The problem was that his bloodcrushers also passed all of their inv saves.

[Nameless Ghost]

So, how do I kill a Fateweaver?

The thing tanked 5 Demolisher shots, 4 Leman Russ shots, a demo charge, 5 meltas, a bunch of lasguns and warp lightnings without taking one wound.

At this point, do I just blame his luck on the roll?

Don't bother with blasts or low AP weapons (blasts are a poor choice against single models when you could be fitting clumps of infantry anyway). Shoot mid-strength high rate of fire weapons like Multi-lasers and Heavy bolters at it to force as many saves as you can. With T5, it's not that difficult to put wounds on it.

Alternatively, you ignore him and focus on killing the rest of the army. Because, you know, he costs more than a Monolith and does about as much.

Or if you're playing against me, ignore the above advice and shoot a single Lasgun at him. He'll fly away back into the Warp.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Never ignore Fateweaver. The rerolls he gives are too dangerous. Isolate him maybe, but that's pretty hard.

[Penguinizer]

All the blasts were also hitting bloodcrushers and screamers as well. Anyways, it was because I had prepared for 1500 and didn't really plan my army well. I didn't have any hydras in it since I forgot to bring them. 2 hydras would have helped a lot.