"Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

[Namfuak]

Doesn't the amount healed correspond to the amount of damage dealt? Which, in this case, would be zero?

I think negative energy is still considered "damage," even if it heals the target. Arguably, you could say that you could deal negative healing if you read it your way, which would mean you could damage someone with positive energy (who would normally not be damaged by it).

(To make that a bit clearer, I mean that if you touch an undead and deal 5 damage as healing, you dealt the undead "-5" damage; thus, your next turn you can heal someone for -5 health).

[Amidus Drexel]

I think negative energy is still considered "damage," even if it heals the target. Arguably, you could say that you could deal negative healing if you read it your way, which would mean you could damage someone with positive energy (who would normally not be damaged by it).

(To make that a bit clearer, I mean that if you touch an undead and deal 5 damage as healing, you dealt the undead "-5" damage; thus, your next turn you can heal someone for -5 health).

Presumably. Either way, it doesn't work as intended.

[toapat]

Presumably. Either way, it doesn't work as intended.

this is mostly a problem of the fact that they never defined standard assumptions like that in game. Undead should be healed by negative and damage by positive. Fire types should be healed by fire, while water types are healed by cold

[weckar]

this is mostly a problem of the fact that they never defined standard assumptions like that in game. Undead should be healed by negative and damage by positive. Fire types should be healed by fire, while water types are healed by cold

So much this, so much this hole in RAW :)

[Flickerdart]

You are (presumably) a being made of flesh. If someone were to hit you over the head with a ham, would that heal you? Why should hitting a fire being with fire heal it? If anything, the new flame would consume the being's fuel faster and be actively detrimental to it.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

this is mostly a problem of the fact that they never defined standard assumptions like that in game. Undead should be healed by negative and damage by positive. Fire types should be healed by fire, while water types are healed by cold

Water types probably shouldn't be healed by cold; freezing or evaporating a creature made of water are both fairly effective, and if anything creatures of pure water should heal from acid (they dilute it and use it to increase their mass) and immune to electricity (because absolutely pure water wouldn't conduct it). What would work better would be water elementals healing by immersing themselves in larger bodies of water or walking into a fog cloud, earth elementals healing while underground, and so forth.

But I agree with your general point. It's kind of lopsided that everything in the multiverse is powered by positive energy except undead, when it should really be that living creatures on the Prime are powered by positive energy, elemental creatures are powered by their respective elements, and outsiders are powered by their respective alignment energies. I realize that they did it the way they did because they wanted cure X wounds to work on everything and figuring out how water elementals heal from water is too much effort, but a more consistent setup would have been nice.

You are (presumably) a being made of flesh. If someone were to hit you over the head with a ham, would that heal you? Why should hitting a fire being with fire heal it? If anything, the new flame would consume the being's fuel faster and be actively detrimental to it.

Creatures of elemental fire don't have a fuel source, per se, though one could argue they summoned ones have a pseudo-fuel source in the magic that holds them there. Hitting a fire elemental with fire and similar for other elements chould work like positive energy does for humanoids: hit a fire creature with fire and it absorbs it and heals, but hit it with a lot of fire and it starts being overwhelming and might explode in a burst of light if it takes in too much at once (or be diluted out into nothing if it's a water elemental hit by a massive burst of water, and so forth).

It's very thematic for elemental creatures to heal from their own element (see: elemental-themed boss fights ), and I'd prefer something like that to being able to throw fire elementals into a volcano with no ill effects--you wanna talk about a fuel source, that should put it out real fast.


On a related note, I now want to whip up some rules for various elements interacting like that. If you hit a water elemental with a cold spell, it would slow down but have an armored shell and hit like a truck, if you hit a cold elemental with fire damage it releases steam for concealment and minor damage, and so forth. Could be interesting for an "omnimental"-type monster that shifts between types of elementals based on how it's attacked....

[toapat]

On a related note, I now want to whip up some rules for various elements interacting like that. If you hit a water elemental with a cold spell, it would slow down but have an armored shell and hit like a truck, if you hit a cold elemental with fire damage it releases steam for concealment and minor damage, and so forth. Could be interesting for an "omnimental"-type monster that shifts between types of elementals based on how it's attacked....

Ive actually considered starting a rewrite of 3.5, although i feel i should first get a better handle on Vancian and Psionic casting.

Primarily i would fix:

Casting
Item Crafting
Handling of concepts
Invent this foreign concept called Pants

Your concept is also actually Called a Wierd, not an Elemental. they form on the Demi-planes of Concordanence or as constructs


Edit: Oh, a rules Dysfunction: Pants, they dont actually exist

[noparlpf]

Ive actually considered starting a rewrite of 3.5, although i feel i should first get a better handle on Vancian and Psionic casting.

Primarily i would fix:

Casting
Item Crafting
Handling of concepts
Invent this foreign concept called Pants

Your concept is also actually Called a Wierd, not an Elemental. they form on the Demi-planes of Concordanence or as constructs

There are so many 3.X rewrites floating around, either partial or complete. Every 3.X fan and their uncle has rewritten large sections of it.

Edit: Oh, a rules Dysfunction: Pants, they dont actually exist

Arms and Equipment Guide, page 29, Table 2-2, Clothing. Under "Breeches/pants".

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Your concept is also actually Called a Wierd, not an Elemental. they form on the Demi-planes of Concordanence or as constructs

D&D has several versions of elemental weirds, many ways of generating demiplanes, and the Singers of Concordance, but I can't think of any omnimental weirds native to demiplanes of concordance. Elaborate, please?

Edit: Oh, a rules Dysfunction: Pants, they dont actually exist

Mundane pants do exist, actually, they can be seen in the pictures of the various starting outfits and exist in A&EG. Magic pants don't exist, though they really should, particularly +5 pants of deflection and morphing pants of sizing.

[toapat]

D&D has several versions of elemental weirds, many ways of generating demiplanes, and the Singers of Concordance, but I can't think of any omnimental weirds native to demiplanes of concordance. Elaborate, please?

The demi-elemental planes of ConcordanceOpposition would be the opposed elemental planes. Elementals from these planes actually would have the type of Wierd, not elemental. the only one of the three planes i can name would be the plane of Concordanant Opposition (the other 2 are never named in 3.5 material, and Con-Op is from DDO so how canon that is is upto the reader), where Possitive and Negative meet.

Mineral, Magma, Prismatic, and Dust elementals are not wierds though, despite arrising from planes created from the convergence of 2 superplanes, as they are not from opposed planes.

Unless the A&EG says that pants are part of Fancy Clothes or Simple Clothes, then they dont exist. Pictures dont count.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

The demi-elemental planes of ConcordanceOpposition would be the opposed elemental planes. Elementals from these planes actually would have the type of Wierd, not elemental. the only one of the three planes i can name would be the plane of Concordanant Opposition (the other 2 are never named in 3.5 material, and Con-Op is from DDO so how canon that is is upto the reader), where Possitive and Negative meet.

Mineral, Magma, Prismatic, and Dust elementals are not wierds though, despite arrising from planes created from the convergence of 2 superplanes, as they are not from opposed planes.

Ah, there's the confusion. The plane with the canonical title of the Concordant Opposition is the Outlands, and refers to opposition of Good/Evil and Law/Chaos, not the elements, and it sounds like the DDO version of weirds is also nonstandard. In D&D canon, two-element mixtures form para-elemental planes (Magma, Smoke, Ice, and Ooze), element/energy mixtures form quasi-elemental planes (Lightning/Mineral/Radiant/Steam for positive energy + air/earth/fire/water and Vacuum/Dust/Ash/Salt for negative energy), and the opposing elemental and energy planes don't ever combine.

Unless the A&EG says that pants are part of Fancy Clothes or Simple Clothes, then they dont exist. Pictures dont count.

The artisan's outfit, cold weather outfit, explorer's outfit, peasant's outfit, and traveler's outfit in the PHB specifically mention pants or breeches, as do the heatsuit and spelunker's outfit in the A&EG, and there are separate prices and weights for six kinds of pants (sackcloth, cotton, leather, woolen, velvet, and silk) in the A&EG as well.

[toapat]

Ah, there's the confusion. The plane with the canonical title of the Concordant Opposition is the Outlands, and refers to opposition of Good/Evil and Law/Chaos, not the elements, and it sounds like the DDO version of weirds is also nonstandard. In D&D canon, two-element mixtures form para-elemental planes (Magma, Smoke, Ice, and Ooze), element/energy mixtures form quasi-elemental planes (Lightning/Mineral/Radiant/Steam for positive energy + air/earth/fire/water and Vacuum/Dust/Ash/Salt for negative energy), and the opposing elemental and energy planes don't ever combine.

actually, the definition of Wierds is from MTG (where they are actually elemental constructs of fire and ice). Wierds would be downright impossible to kill if they were in DDO because of how little of the mitigation we get in the game. the Undead fire elementals in Necropolis 4 are bad enough in that game already, as are the Darthbolds in Enter the Kobold.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Magical pants do exist! They're just japanese. The beginning of OA's magic item chapter has the listing for types of items which includes a note about using hakama in place of a cloak. Hakama are those big, flowing pants that samurai wear.

Bonus points: hakama of charisma is a pair of pants that make you more attractive to others.

[Story]

Affliction (BoED) specifies that it does extra damage against evil undead, except that it's Fort negates, so undead are immune to it.

[Fates]

I don't know if anyone's brought it up yet, but what about knowledge skills? They're trained only, which means, for example, someone without ranks in knowledge (nature) wouldn't know what a wolf is, or the ocean, and someone without ranks in knowledge (history) wouldn't know about anything that ever happened that they hadn't directly experienced. Sure, for knowledge (arcana), (the planes), etc, it makes sense (the average joe doesn't know what type of outsiders reside in limbo or ancient arcane secrets) but things like local, history, nature, architecture, geography, etc, being trained only makes zero sense.

[TypoNinja]

I don't know if anyone's brought it up yet, but what about knowledge skills? They're trained only, which means, for example, someone without ranks in knowledge (nature) wouldn't know what a wolf is, or the ocean, and someone without ranks in knowledge (history) wouldn't know about anything that ever happened that they hadn't directly experienced. Sure, for knowledge (arcana), (the planes), etc, it makes sense (the average joe doesn't know what type of outsiders reside in limbo or ancient arcane secrets) but things like local, history, nature, architecture, geography, etc, being trained only makes zero sense.

This has been covered before but I'm not sure if this thread or not.

Knowledge can be used DC 10 or less untrained. That might not get you detailed information but since your average 5 year old can tell you the difference between a wolf and an elephant, its pretty fair to say the DC to identify a particular Genus is fairly low, unless you have animals who are a lot alike. Think "that's an elephant" "African or Asian?" "I don't know."

Likewise, lack of knowledge local doesn't prevent you from finding the market place in the town you grew up in.

This also covers the kind of common knowledge you'd expect to be floating around. People know things like Angels live in Celestia, Devils come from Hell, but would be rather light on details about specific residents. They may even have trouble with the difference between Devils and Demons for that matter. Though most peasants would easily make the leap to assuming that fire does not work on the minions of Hell.

The DC 10+hitdice checks are for specific and useful knowledge about a particular creature, things like its special powers and specific identification, or even knowledge of typical tactics. That is specialized learning that is in a different category than "Holy ****! A Dragon! RUN!"

[TuggyNE]

I don't know if anyone's brought it up yet, but what about knowledge skills? They're trained only, which means, for example, someone without ranks in knowledge (nature) wouldn't know what a wolf is, or the ocean, and someone without ranks in knowledge (history) wouldn't know about anything that ever happened that they hadn't directly experienced. Sure, for knowledge (arcana), (the planes), etc, it makes sense (the average joe doesn't know what type of outsiders reside in limbo or ancient arcane secrets) but things like local, history, nature, architecture, geography, etc, being trained only makes zero sense.

Pretty sure it's been brought up before, and in fact a whole thread spun off just for Knowledge checks to identify creatures.

[Fates]

Ah, thanks. Was that eratta'd, homebrewed, or am I simply terrible at reading?

[TuggyNE]

Ah, thanks. Was that eratta'd, homebrewed, or am I simply terrible at reading?

As far as I know there's no particular errata for Knowledge checks, at least not for IDing monsters. Making sense out of it requires houserules or homebrew, whether recognized or not.

[Jack_Simth]

This is why one should never copy and paste, and should always have an editor look over the finished product.

Oh, they do.

It's just that the editors have no idea how to actually, you know, play the game.

[noparlpf]

Oh, they do.

It's just that the editors have no idea how to actually, you know, play the game.

But it's just common sense in that case. Isn't it?

(Random copy/paste fail: The other day at my Intro Neurobio class's review session I was the only one who'd noticed that one problem on the practice exam had one answer repeated twice, and due to its poor wording, technically both of those and one of the others were all right.)

[Arbane]

But it's just common sense in that case. Isn't it?

"Common Sense" is a very badly named quality, given how rare it is.

[The Viscount]

Prismatic Golems are incorporeal constructs. Think about that for a second.

[Talderas]

Affliction (BoED) specifies that it does extra damage against evil undead, except that it's Fort negates, so undead are immune to it.

Ignore the save portion, you can make a valid argument that since the spell identifies undead as a valid target within its description that the spell ignores the Fort save rule of undead.

Half to two thirds of the spell is useless against undead since it deals ability damage. Undead are immune to strength and dexterity damage and they lack a constitution score and thus immune to it. Many undead also lack an intelligence score so they are immune to the intelligence damage. Of course, you could make the same argument line for why the damage applies as for why the spell applies.

[TuggyNE]

Prismatic Golems are incorporeal constructs. Think about that for a second.

... what about it? I'm not seeing the strange.

(In fact, sometime I'd like to homebrew an incorporeal immobile mindless construct that acts as a teleporting turret defense. Has Str -, Dex -, Con -, Int -. Mostly because I find the idea of a creature with all eligible ability scores nulls to be funny.)

[toapat]

... what about it? I'm not seeing the strange.

(In fact, sometime I'd like to homebrew an incorporeal immobile mindless construct that acts as a teleporting turret defense. Has Str -, Dex -, Con -, Int -. Mostly because I find the idea of a creature with all eligible ability scores nulls to be funny.)

So, a Ghost maple Tree?

anyway, the strange part of the creature is that it is a golem made out of an intangible material

[noparlpf]

So, a Ghost maple Tree?

anyway, the strange part of the creature is that it is a golem made out of an intangible material

So? Wear Ghost Touch gauntlets or just be a ghost when you're making it.

[toapat]

So? Wear Ghost Touch gauntlets or just be a ghost when you're making it.

typically Incorporal constructions have some basis on a plane of reality, and by extension, some form of mass.

Light, on the other hand, does not have mass

[noparlpf]

typically Incorporal constructions have some basis on a plane of reality, and by extension, some form of mass.

Light, on the other hand, does not have mass

Who even knows what light is? (Here comes the Physics gang!)

[TuggyNE]

Who even knows what light is? (Here comes the Physics gang!)

Slay all the catgirls!

But seriously, I'll grant that an incorporeal mass of non-living matter is odd, but not necessarily dysfunctional.