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2011-11-15, 10:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIV: "Pray for 6's!"
Potentially, but firstly I don't think he would add enough to be worth the points, and secondly it would limit the kind of units the Wraiths could go after then - without the Lord, they can engage just about anything, with him, anything with good Strength that can ignore armour-saves in close combat becomes a rather non-favourable target (as the Lord will be directly targetable once they are in close combat).
I have not done the math on how many wraiths a Lord is worth, but one of the main reasons for bringing him is to give him the 2+ save upgrade, and then let him soak up the numerous S8 AP 3 hits that might otherwise instantly kill a wraith.thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar
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2011-11-15, 10:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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2011-11-15, 12:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIV: "Pray for 6's!"
Minor Nitpick; All wraiths have phase shifters, so the AP 3 would be irrelevant here.
But due to his 2+ save, then the lord has a 5/6 chance of taking it, without instantly dying if he fails.thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar
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2011-11-15, 12:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIV: "Pray for 6's!"
If it was a Dreadnought with just straight fists then it's pretty situational in its usefulness (vehicles, other walkers and monstrous creatures for choice, anything else is just wasting the S10 and you don't get enough attacks to make it worthwhile) and can be fairly underwhelming (unless you're using Moriar the Chosen from the 3rd ed rules with your opponent's permission, he's just insanely powerful). If it was one with talons then, well, there is a rule you're missing and thats that every unsaved wound generates another attack. A Talon dread should have torn those boyz apart. In about a year of using these things, I have maybe had rolling as bad as that sounds a handful of times, like 2 weeks ago when my charging death company Dread rolled 3 1's and 2 2's to hit.
Last edited by Timberwolf; 2011-11-15 at 01:25 PM.
"What's in this empty box ?"
"Youth and talent is no match for age and treachery."
Mechwarrior by Elder Tsofu
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2011-11-15, 03:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIV: "Pray for 6's!"
I just noticed i overlooked one of the biggest reasons for taking a Destroyer Lord along, Mindshackle Scarabs!!!
thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar
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2011-11-15, 03:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIV: "Pray for 6's!"
I looked at it, and i didn't think i looked that scary so let me try run the math:
4 attacks(on charge)
2/3 are going to hit: 4*0,666= 2,664 hits
2,664 hits, wounds on 2+: 2,664*0,833=2,219 wounds
2,219, hits on 3+: 2,219*0,666=1,477 hits
1,477 wounds on 2+:1,477*0,833=1,230 wounds
By dividing the number of wounds by the number of attacks i get: 0,555
Meaning that for every attack you score 0,555 wounds.
4*0,555=2,22
2,22*0,555=1,232
1,232*0,555=0,683
0,683*0,555=0,379
That add up to an average of 4,514 wounds.
And i know that it isn't 100% correct (for instanse i didn't round up the fourth decimal if it was 5+). But it should give a pretty good picture.
4,5/30*100=15% effectiveness of what you guys said
Is there something i missed?
Edit: I know that it would have given a better result if i took more than 4 steps, but i don't think it would go above 5 wounds.Last edited by Ninjaman; 2011-11-15 at 03:52 PM.
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2011-11-15, 04:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIV: "Pray for 6's!"
As i recall it can reroll either to wound or to hit.
thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar
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2011-11-15, 04:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIV: "Pray for 6's!"
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2011-11-15, 04:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIV: "Pray for 6's!"
Alright, time to break out my calculus lessons! (That's where I learned this, anyway).
Now, what we'll end up having here is an infinite geometric sum, an equation for which can be found here. As far as variables go, a=4, and r=35/54 (2/3 * 35/36). So, the average number of orcs this furioso will kill is equal to 4/(1-35/54), which comes out to 11.37.
For comparison, if the dreadnaught isn't charging, it should kill 8.53 orks on average.
Pretty impressive if all that can wound it in that mob is the power klaw.Last edited by Squark; 2011-11-15 at 05:02 PM. Reason: Redoing the math (several times)
Steam ID: The Great Squark
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2011-11-15, 04:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIV: "Pray for 6's!"
Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
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2011-11-15, 07:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIV: "Pray for 6's!"
Ahhh, ye olde Mathhammer.
One thing I will agree with Cheesegear on is this, this is a useful guide, but should be treated as just that.
Let us apply a touch of Further Mathhammer.
Last I looked, the statisticians would have us believe that everything comes down to a Normal distribution (AKA the bell curve), you will have results that are above average, you will have results that are below average. All that working things like this out is telling you how it should go. Unfortunately for your basic Mathhammer, what it tells you is how it goes with the exact average point in the centre of the middle quartiles of all the statistics you should get. In other words, not actually all that many of the results you'd analyse to get that.
Now, I have a good deal of experience with Talon Dreadnoughts by now, it's actually a pretty rare game where I don't have at least one. This means that, should I have written the performance down, I would have over 100 different results to look at and correlate. I can tell you that there have been days when I have torn through 30 Gaunts in a single round and still had attacks to spare, there have been days when I have missed everything. Comparing like with like, there have been days when the Grey Knights have died horribly (including the Librarian, FOR JUSTICE !) and days when I have been eaten by the Brotherhood Champion's Nemesis Hammer.
Simply put, 5 wounds may be as much as you can expect, perhaps it will do none at all, which is the risk you run with all moves in this game. However, there is no denying that when it works it really, really, really works. And it really works enough of the time for it to be totally worthwhile (like the 2 upper quartiles of the curve, or 50%). Even when it doesn't work, well, there's the wounds it does as well as the intangible benefits like every opponent's flinch reaction to shoot it with everything so it doesn't get to do what it does best, thereby making it worth its points (actually very cheap...) as a distraction and fire magnet.
"What's in this empty box ?"
"Youth and talent is no match for age and treachery."
Mechwarrior by Elder Tsofu
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2011-11-15, 07:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIV: "Pray for 6's!"
Ok, first off, I am a complete newbie at WH40k, but I have read enough flavor stuff to like it.
A friend of mine is insisting me to try it out, he just opened a hobby shop and soon enough he'll get some minis (so far it's mostly tabletop games and magic: the gathering), and while I am both interested in Warhammer and Warmachine, I honestly think it's just a ploy for me to buy stuff from him.
Anyways, to the point. I'm still in college, and my job doesn't pay much, so that leaves IG, nids, and orks as options, and I've heard that Space Wolves space marines are affordable enough since they do lots of stuff with little units. Is this true? I know the hobby is expensive, both money and time-wise.Last edited by ArqArturo; 2011-11-15 at 07:16 PM.
MAGIC, n. An art of converting superstition into coin. There are other arts serving the same high purpose, but the discreet lexicographer does not name them.
Taken from The Devil's Dictionary
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2011-11-15, 07:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIV: "Pray for 6's!"
Well, welcome to the thread ArqArturo - Only a couple of days late, as we've very recently been asked the same question by someone else in your postion.
Space Wolves, Dark Angels and Grey Knights can all make small, yet still effective armies, though the Dark Angels varient (known commonly as "Deathwing") is probably the cheapest to actually buy the models for.
Of the other two, Grey Knights are very slightly cheaper to buy and also are easier to paint and collect, as Space Wolves tend to require you learning some advanced modelling skills in order to make changes and personalise your soldiers.~ CAUTION: May Contain Weasels ~
RPG Characters What I Done Played As (Explained Badly)
17 Things I Learned About 40k By Playing Dark Heresy
Tales of a Role-Play Gamer - Horrible Optimisation
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2011-11-15, 07:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIV: "Pray for 6's!"
Grey Knights. Cheaper. Pardon?
With Space Wolves, you can make every 10 SW models 20 by adding 10 AoBR marines into mix, and 10 SW cost as much as 5 GK. Also, are you suggesting all these tiny letters are easier to paint than Wolves? I'd say otherwise.
Agreed on Deathwing, though, but it isn't very good army unless you know what you're doing both in list making and in game.
Also, AA, you can try to play the game on computer to try it out first, on Vassal.Come one, come all! GitP MLP Steam Group is open!
Current location of the last MLP Thread OP, too.
Want to ask me something? Use MAIL or message me on Steam!
"Well, the Great and Powerful Trixie can't actually transport you to Equestria... But!
The Great and Powerful Trixie can beat you over the head until you think that's what happened!"
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2011-11-15, 07:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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2011-11-15, 07:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIV: "Pray for 6's!"
I don't understand your derision of probability calculus. I don't think anyone who understands it is saying that things will happen exactly X amount of time. All it allows you to do is to calculate the most likely outcome of a certain action. With large samples it can be a extremely accurate prognosis, but with the sample size in warhammer deviations tend to happen.
While it would be more useful with every mathammer calculation to include standard deviations; such a thing is difficult to compute. All you have to keep in mind is that the bigger the sample size, the smaller chance you have get anything else then a average result.
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2011-11-15, 08:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIV: "Pray for 6's!"
Being from USA or UK you can buy all kind of army for 300 Dollars. Im from argentina (Dolar = 4$;Eu=6) So.. Its kinda hard, and i still bought it, full necron army , new codex included, and im 17 yeras old.
just Save up a little, 2 weeks not going out, do not eat dessert.. and you will be fine. If you are in college, you can save 300$ in 2 or 3 weeks.
Necrons were cheaper, but now you can go small armies.
Thou Orks are not expensive, yesyou need 100 models, but little ones.
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2011-11-15, 09:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIV: "Pray for 6's!"
Come one, come all! GitP MLP Steam Group is open!
Current location of the last MLP Thread OP, too.
Want to ask me something? Use MAIL or message me on Steam!
"Well, the Great and Powerful Trixie can't actually transport you to Equestria... But!
The Great and Powerful Trixie can beat you over the head until you think that's what happened!"
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2011-11-15, 10:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIV: "Pray for 6's!"
I'm kinda in the same situation as flivento. I live in Mexico, so the dollar is a little more steep, and therefore the prices. That, and add that Architecture school ain't cheap. But, on the other hand, I'm rather patient enough for making models, using the green stuff, and painting (especially the painting part).
Just a question, though. Do the space marines minis (save for the particular models) can be added logos/symbols/weapons and paint the colors to represent other chapters (Emperor's Fists from Blood Angels, from Space Wolves, from Ultramarines, etc.), or do they come identified already from the box?.MAGIC, n. An art of converting superstition into coin. There are other arts serving the same high purpose, but the discreet lexicographer does not name them.
Taken from The Devil's Dictionary
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2011-11-15, 10:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIV: "Pray for 6's!"
Depends on the models. Generic Space Marine units (tactical squads, assault squads, etc) don't have insignia molded on, but Chapter-specific ones (Death Company and so forth) do.
"Courage is the complement of fear. A fearless man cannot be courageous. He is also a fool." -- Robert Heinlein
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2011-11-16, 12:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIV: "Pray for 6's!"
Well you better believe it because you can. Maths hammer has always been a problem because of how dice work. If you roll a 6 then there is still the same chance of rolling a 6 again even if you rolled ten 6's before that.
Just doing some rolling and here are the kills that I have gotten (on the charge) 7, 9, 11, 24, 14, 11, 7, 16, 22, 6, 3, 9, 8, 12, 13, 8, 11, 4, 2, 20,
These are definately higher than the average from mathhammering would suggest.
Being charged here are the results 0, 4, 4, 6, 18, 9, 3, 5, 10, 2, 18, 3, 3, 12, 9, 1, 8, 7, 19, 14,
Granted I haven't achieved 30 kills with these 40 rounds but the results are pretty decent. If the ork with powerclaw doesn't manage to do anything to the furioso then they have to take fearless armour saves and will lose a lot more considering they only have a 6+ save.Lillien Lemmerin:http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetvie...sheetid=111721
Member of the Mr Scruffy fan club
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2011-11-16, 01:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIV: "Pray for 6's!"
I am the golden shadow. I am the Ninja Chocobo
Avatar by me.
My other avatars.
The rest of my signature.
Spoiler
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2011-11-16, 01:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIV: "Pray for 6's!"
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2011-11-16, 02:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIV: "Pray for 6's!"
Posting a 1500 (actually 1503, but whatever) points Space Wolves list for review!
Spoiler
Rune Priest - 130 pts
-Terminator armor, Chooser of the Slain
-Living Lightning, Murderous Hurricane
Wolf Lord - 205 pts
-Terminator armor with storm bolter, wolf claw
-Belt of Russ, Saga of the Bear
Grey Hunters (x10) - 205 pts
-2xMeltaguns, Mark of the Wulfen
-Dedicated transport: Drop Pod
Grey Hunters (x10) - 225 pts
-2xPlasma guns, Power sword, Mark of the Wulfen
-Dedicated transport: Drop Pod
Grey Hunters (x10) - 190 pts
-2xPlasma guns, Power sword, Mark of the Wulfen
Wolf Guard (x6) - 293 pts
-One model in Terminator armor with wolf claw, storm bolter, cyclone missile launcher
-Four models in Terminator armor with wolf claw, storm bolter
-One model in power armor with boltgun, power fist
-Dedicated transport: Drop Pod
Long Fangs (x6) - 140 pts
-Missile launchers (x5)
Long Fangs (x6) - 115 pts
-Heavy bolters (x5)
The Rune Priest would usually go with one Long Fang squad, and the Cyclone Wolf Guard with the other Long Fangs. Then I'd split off the power-armored Wolf Guard to go with the footslogging Grey Hunters, and the Wolf Lord would drop in with the 4 remaining Wolf Guard. How's this all look?
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2011-11-16, 03:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIV: "Pray for 6's!"
Resident Vancian Apologist
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2011-11-16, 05:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIV: "Pray for 6's!"
I'd either drop the armor or give him Storm Shield as well, if RP can take it, that is. You need good Inv save more than armour.
Wolf Lord - 205 pts
-Terminator armor with storm bolter, wolf claw
-Belt of Russ, Saga of the Bear
Grey Hunters (x10) - 205 pts
-2xMeltaguns, Mark of the Wulfen
-Dedicated transport: Drop Pod
Grey Hunters (x10) - 225 pts
-2xPlasma guns, Power sword, Mark of the Wulfen
-Dedicated transport: Drop Pod
Grey Hunters (x10) - 190 pts
-2xPlasma guns, Power sword, Mark of the Wulfen
-One model in Terminator armor with wolf claw, storm bolter, cyclone missile launcher
-Four models in Terminator armor with wolf claw, storm bolter
-One model in power armor with boltgun, power fist
Long Fangs (x6) - 140 pts
-Missile launchers (x5)
Long Fangs (x6) - 115 pts
-Heavy bolters (x5)
The Rune Priest would usually go with one Long Fang squad, and the Cyclone Wolf Guard with the other Long Fangs.Come one, come all! GitP MLP Steam Group is open!
Current location of the last MLP Thread OP, too.
Want to ask me something? Use MAIL or message me on Steam!
"Well, the Great and Powerful Trixie can't actually transport you to Equestria... But!
The Great and Powerful Trixie can beat you over the head until you think that's what happened!"
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2011-11-16, 08:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIV: "Pray for 6's!"
Lillien Lemmerin:http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetvie...sheetid=111721
Member of the Mr Scruffy fan club
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2011-11-16, 08:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIV: "Pray for 6's!"
Steam ID: The Great Squark
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Currently Playing: Warhammer 40000, Hades, Stellaris, Warframe
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2011-11-16, 08:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIV: "Pray for 6's!"
What does gitp thing of my space elf list? I will be fighting almost entirely space marines and their variants in the foreseeable future.
Spoiler
HQ
Farseer- Spirit Stones, Doom, Guide, Singing Spear 123
Farseer-Guide, Singing Spear, Runes of Warding 98
Elites
Fire Dragons x6 – Exarch, Tank Hunters, Wave Serpent, Twin-Linked Brightlance, Spirit Stone 268
Howling Banshees x8 – Exarch, Executioner, Acrobatic, Wave Serpent, Twin-Linked Starcannon, Spirit Stone 290
Troops
Dire Avengers x10 – Exarch, Dual Catapults, Bladestorm 152
Dire Avengers x10 – Exarch, Power Weapon and Shield, Bladestorm 162
Heavy Support
Falcon – Eldar Missile Launcher 135
Falcon – Eldar Missile Launcher 135
Falcon – Eldar Missile Launcher 135
Total: 1498
Any and all criticism is encouraged and accepted.
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2011-11-16, 08:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIV: "Pray for 6's!"
QFT. Sounds an awfully lot what I used to say back in the day around Thread IV when people still cared what Math-Hammer said. Either some people here have listened to me, or there are less people who care about Math Hammer.
Yes. Ricky S made personal dice rolls. Look closely. Do they match the Math Hammer? Hell no. Because that's not how dice work. For Math Hammer to 'work', statistics need to be dealing in sample sizes of at least 30 (which 40K doesn't, except for Imperial Guard, and that's why those guys are good, they actually can play averages...Sometimes), and, if not using anecdotal samples - like Ricky S' - then you're rolling infinite dice and making stats that way.
Most people are lucky if they're rolling 20 dice at any one time (see back to Imperial Guard taking Luck out the back and shooting it). And, as I said, anything less than 30 is considered an unreliable sample (an extension of the 'n=1 Fallacy').
In short; Math Hammer is handy. But it doesn't work. Not in the real world. Don't pretend that it does. Lies. Damn Lies. Statistics.