(3.5) Whats the point of the Core sorcerer?

[Flickerdart]

Apprentice (Spellcaster) says hi. Every Sorcerer should take this feat. An extra spell known, the ability to swap a spell at every level, UMD as an in class skill (it always should have been), and an extra Knowledge skill in case you need it for a PrC. Of course, it really comes into its own when you combine it with Mother Cyst and a Bloodline feat, for a total of 20 spells of your choosing added to your spells known.

It still isn't a Wizard, but it does help the first level argument.

No it doesn't - the Wizard still knows over twice as many 1st level spells as the Sorcerer. There is never a moment when they know the same amount.

[Calanon]

Wizards are the finely-tuned watch. Sorcerers are the rubber mallet.

I feel that I've heard this before but can't place it...

I've said this before in a previous thread *looks through other threads* AH! here it is

Spoiler

Show

I play D&D with 4 different groups of players and show up to every game and play a Wizard in all of them, the problem of preparing spells has never really come up for me since after a while your going to have favorite spells that you like more than other spells and will prepare them more often then others. Eventually you start playing as a Sorcerer with a spellbook, the only thing I've noticed that Wizards have over Sorcerers is the ability to best use Item creation feats to the best potential and even then that is limited However, I do still like Wizards over Sorcerers.

Please note this is my experience and opinion, in reality some Wizards pick different spells for the day EVERYDAY but meh, I'm different and lazier Its to much of a headache to keep all that book work, Just have a fine list of spells that you like and go back to them every now and again (But its always smart to keep your main list with you when preparing, if one of your favorite spells doesn't do what you like then just pick a spell that you know that does what you want it to)

[dextercorvia]

No it doesn't - the Wizard still knows over twice as many 1st level spells as the Sorcerer. There is never a moment when they know the same amount.

True, but a 1st level sorcerer can know as many spells as a 1st level Wizard can prepare. Of course, a 1st level Wizard with the same feat investment can spontaneously cast any spell he knows up to Int mod times per day.

I'm not saying that Sorcerers are better.

[Leon]

What is the point of Core Anything?

a Core wizard does not have much more to offer than a Core Sorcerer.

[FearlessGnome]

Speaking of Mother Cyst... I keep hearing that it gives 11 spells, but I can only find 10 of them. There's one per level, and then there's the second level spell that actually makes the cyst. Where's the last spell hiding? (As in, what other level gives two spells, and which two are they?)

[Doc Roc]

Wizards are the finely-tuned watch. Sorcerers are the rubber mallet.

I love mallets.

[Telonius]

No it doesn't - the Wizard still knows over twice as many 1st level spells as the Sorcerer. There is never a moment when they know the same amount.

There might potentially be such a point, high in Epics, if Sorcerer keeps taking "Extra Spell" as his feat. At some point he'll exhaust all possible spells to know. Then again, at that point Wizard and Sorcerer will both be overdeity-scale powerful.

[Anarchy_Kanya]

Whats the point of the Core sorcerer?
So the Wizard can feel even bigger in the pants.

[manamyst]

i just give mine spell bending also know as to "wing it"
they lose one spell known per spell level but gain the abiity to as a fullround action use two spell slots of the same level cast any spell in the sor/wiz spell list of that level if the spell would take a full round action or more you instead double its casting time
it makes them truly spontanious

[nedz]

i just give mine spell bending also know as to "wing it"
they lose one spell known per spell level but gain the abiity to as a fullround action use two spell slots of the same level cast any spell in the sor/wiz spell list of that level if the spell would take a full round action or more you instead double its casting time
it makes them truly spontanious

Interesting homebrew - but its not a core sorceror.
I think this makes them Tier 0

[Hiro Protagonest]

Interesting homebrew - but its not a core sorceror.
I think this makes them Tier 0

Longer casting time and double the spell slots? Not tier 0. Definitely not tier 0.

[Little Brother]

Guys? Since LoD, Wizards have been spontaneous. Complete Champion would also like a chat with you guys. And Contact Other Plane laughs at this whole "preparing" thing.

[Calanon]

Guys? Since LoD, Wizards have been spontaneous. Complete Champion would also like a chat with you guys. And Contact Other Plane laughs at this whole "preparing" thing.

I know your joking but can you tell me which page is says this?

[nedz]

Longer casting time and double the spell slots? Not tier 0. Definitely not tier 0.

Well they can cast any arcane spell in the system, without having to go and learn it, without having to plan and prepare the spell in advance. That does sound like a tier above wizard.

[Emperor Tippy]

Not if you have to burn two equal level slots to do it and it's a full round to cast (like summoning).

They will burn through spell slots fast that way. I might limit it to 1/encounter or 3/day but otherwise it's not that bad.

[Ravens_cry]

What is the point? To allow players to play a caster whos power comes from innate ability and talent rather than conviction in a deity or set of principles (cleric), a connection to the power of the natural world (druid), or from long and arduous study (wizard).
From a meta perspective, they are, at least in my experience, significantly easier to just pick up and play compared to a wizard.
These are my spells, there are many like them, but these ones are mine.

[Chronos]

Then again, though, they still know all of their favorite spells and can cast them normally-- You'd only have to use double slots for spells you didn't already know, so you probably only end up needing to pull that out a couple times a day (and of course, sorcs get more spells per day than wizards). I think that just might put an even-level sorcerer at more powerful than a wizard.

Of course, at odd levels, the wizard still has access to an entire level of spells that the sorcerer doesn't.

[DeAnno]

Aside from Arcane Fusion and Greater Rite of Passage and all the other little Sorcerer quirks you should be using if the target power level is "Wizard", a good point has been sort of half-brought up in this thread. Sorcerers are easy to play and hard to design. This makes them a much better class to give to a new player (as long as you either design it for them or watchdog them over the whole process).

Metamagic and reducers for it actually do favor the Sorcerer more, because Spontaneous casting is better suited to a Blaster playstyle (where often you have some utility options or BFC or mobility on your spell list but would normally have no idea how many of them need to be prepared) and interacts with Arcane Spellsurge more favorably.

To make good use of prepared casting you must be willing to make very aggressive use of Divinations. In cases where Divinations do not work very well, either because of lots of people with Nondetection running around (and a favorable DM intepretation of a muddy area in the rules) or because the DM is just sick of you Divining things and starts twisting answers, prepared casting is suddenly much less attractive. It sounds extremely meta, but you're much less likely to piss off your DM (and bore your fellow players) by simply being extremely effective in 'bad" situations than by using Divination to prevent bad situations from ever occurring in the first place.

Even discounting the DM thing, Divinations sort of leave you on a knife-edge with regards to effectiveness. If you ever relax your vigilance or somehow make a serious blunder, you will not have the proper spells prepared and you may lack the sheer power necessary to salvage the situation.

[Emperor Tippy]

That's pretty much a misconception actually.

You can build a very solid spell list at level 20 that will give you what you need against 95% of the enemies in the game without a problem.

The thing is that you have to actually think about your spells and use them creatively.

Disintegrate, for example, is a utility spell, a no-save battle field control spell, and a fort save or die spell.

Fabricate is a battle field control spell and a utility spell.

Resilient Sphere is a defensive spell, a battle field control spell, and a reflex save or be trapped spell.

Prismatic Sphere is a defensive spell, a utility spell, a battle field control spell, and an attack spell.

Gate is a defensive spell, a utility spell, an attack spell, an escape spell, and a calling spell.

Polymorph Any Object is a battle field control spell, a utility spell, a buff spell, a fort-save or loose, a no save just loose, and a defensive spell.

Temporal Stasis is a will save or loose, a utility spell, and a defensive spell.

I could go on, many spell (even some of surprisingly low level) can be down right deadly even at high levels with just a bit of creativity and imagination.

[nedz]

Then again, though, they still know all of their favorite spells and can cast them normally-- You'd only have to use double slots for spells you didn't already know, so you probably only end up needing to pull that out a couple times a day (and of course, sorcs get more spells per day than wizards). I think that just might put an even-level sorcerer at more powerful than a wizard.

Of course, at odd levels, the wizard still has access to an entire level of spells that the sorcerer doesn't.

I'm not sure this houserule is properly thought out, or at least not fully explained.
If they lose the first spell known per spell level then at even levels they are completely open and can cast 3/2 spells per day (without bonus spells) ?
At the next odd level they would know 1 spell of their highest level, which they could spam, and have the "wing-it" option open.
?????

[Little Brother]

I know your joking but can you tell me which page is says this?

Actually, Exemplars of Evil, not Lords of Darkness. I always confuse those two books confused. Either way, p26, I believe.

Or p52 of Complete Champion. Not as big, but still nifty.

But, no, I am not joking.

[Emperor Tippy]

Actually, Exemplars of Evil, not Lords of Darkness. I always confuse those two books confused. Either way, p26, I believe.

Or p52 of Complete Champion. Not as big, but still nifty.

But, no, I am not joking.

Yep, Uncanny Forethought for your Int mod's worth of spontaneous casting per day and Spontaneous Divination for never having to prepare a divination spell again.

The only problem with UF is that you need to take Spell Mastery to qualify for it.

[manamyst]

backgroound the the only books most our campains use are PH, DMG, MM, expanded psionics handbook, and tome of battle
home rule all casters may use their casting stat for spellcraft
"winging it" has dose have other uses
a spellcraft check of (spell level*3+18) or three spell slots will bring it down to a standerd action
as a one spell slot full round action you may add any metamagic feat to a spell you know with a check of(12+total spell level*3+MMlevel)example silent magic missle will take a 2 level slot with a spellcraft DC of
(12+3*2+1*2)=20 +18 tobring to standerd action -18 if you have the metamagic feat used
failing the check -1 caster level take 1 non lethal
failing the check by more than 2 -1 caster level take 1 non lethal
failing the check by more than 4 -1 caster level take 1 non lethal
more then 6 spell fails
more then 10 it blows up in your face take 1d6 per spell level nonLethal damage
more then 20 take 2d6 per spell level Lethal damage
roling a one dose not auto fail
I forgot how long this was outside of group short hand

[Analytica]

And Contact Other Plane laughs at this whole "preparing" thing.

I want to understand how this technique is actually used in practice, but don't. How often would you cast it? How many times on each occasion? What questions would you ask? I can definitely see "if I go to the castle down the valley, will I encounter undead?" and the like, but how would I use the spell to be prepared for things like a rival suddenly attacking using an unexpected strategy, or for my allies falling into some strange peril?

[Emperor Tippy]

I want to understand how this technique is actually used in practice, but don't. How often would you cast it? How many times on each occasion? What questions would you ask? I can definitely see "if I go to the castle down the valley, will I encounter undead?" and the like, but how would I use the spell to be prepared for things like a rival suddenly attacking using an unexpected strategy, or for my allies falling into some strange peril?

At the end of the day you blow most of your excess spell slots on it with Spontaneous Divination.

Things like "Is anyone planning to assassinate me?"
"Will I run into any monsters with Immunity to Fire tomorrow?"
"Will I see any creature not native to the material plane tomorrow?"
"Will I enter into a conflict with any undead tomorrow?"
"Has anyone attempted to use divination magic against me today?"
"Does anyone who I consider to be my enemy and believe to be dead, still live?"

When you get Yes answers you refine your questions until you get the specifics. Four or so castings per day should cover the wrong answers (if something conflicts cast it a few more times).

[nedz]

backgroound the the only books most our campains use are PH, DMG, MM, expanded psionics handbook, and tome of battle
home rule all casters may use their casting stat for spellcraft
"winging it" has dose have other uses
a spellcraft check of (spell level*3+18) or three spell slots will bring it down to a standerd action
as a one spell slot full round action you may add any metamagic feat to a spell you know with a check of(12+total spell level*3+MMlevel)example silent magic missle will take a 2 level slot with a spellcraft DC of
(12+3*2+1*2)=20 +18 tobring to standerd action -18 if you have the metamagic feat used
failing the check -1 caster level take 1 non lethal
failing the check by more than 2 -1 caster level take 1 non lethal
failing the check by more than 4 -1 caster level take 1 non lethal
more then 6 spell fails
more then 10 it blows up in your face take 1d6 per spell level nonLethal damage
more then 20 take 2d6 per spell level Lethal damage
roling a one dose not auto fail
I forgot how long this was outside of group short hand

OK - but what happens when my Sorceror takes 4th level, do I get to know a 2nd level spell ?

[nedz]

At the end of the day you blow most of your excess spell slots on it with Spontaneous Divination.

Things like "Is anyone planning to assassinate me?"
"Will I run into any monsters with Immunity to Fire tomorrow?"
"Will I see any creature not native to the material plane tomorrow?"
"Will I enter into a conflict with any undead tomorrow?"
"Has anyone attempted to use divination magic against me today?"
"Does anyone who I consider to be my enemy and believe to be dead, still live?"

When you get Yes answers you refine your questions until you get the specifics. Four or so castings per day should cover the wrong answers (if something conflicts cast it a few more times).

Unless you run on a railroad; how is a DM meant to answer Questions
2-4 ? As a DM I would feel obliged to answer Unknown to all of these.

[Diefje]

This thread needs more metaphors.

Sorcerors are like cake, wizard are like pie. Pie is clearly superior, but some people just like cake.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Unless your game is entirely random where the DM always rolls on random encounter tables or looks through all the level- appropriate enemies and picks some at random; how is a DM meant to answer Questions
2-4 ? As a DM I would feel obliged to answer Unknown to all of these.

FTFY.

And for the record, the DM can roll on the tables in advance.

[Qwertystop]

FTFY.

And for the record, the DM can roll on the tables in advance.

Yeah, just roll the next day's encounters when the divination spell is cast.

Apprentice (Spellcaster) says hi. Every Sorcerer should take this feat. An extra spell known, the ability to swap a spell at every level, UMD as an in class skill (it always should have been), and an extra Knowledge skill in case you need it for a PrC.

What feat is this? All I find on D&D Toolshop is Precocious Apprentice.