Dominic Deegan: Oracle for Hire, Mk. XLIV: Stunt Bro and Hella Jayden

[M84]

It's not even just that the babies are disabled. They are also disabled in a way that makes her a legitimate threat to others -- even magical werewolves can be caught off guard, after all, and "Runt" or not, Katya probably still could do some serious damage to any werewolf not as powerful as Milov before being put down.

It's not just a matter of "culling" the weak, it's a matter of public safety. What if Katya went into her rage state near a child?

In real life people who have a condition that makes them a danger to others are locked up for their own and others' safety for the rest of their lives or given a lot of medication to deal with it.

Edit:

Funnily enough, Katya periodically becoming a dangerous furry monster against her will makes her more like a traditional werewolf than the rest of her race.

[mwchase]

So, a powerful political leader is casually palling around with a dangerous being prone to fits of rage, and we're not really sure why?

Why does that sound familiar...

[TheLaughingMan]

It's mainly because I've been reading Heathen Critique (warning: mentioned site discusses GitP-void topics) a lot, and one of the points the writer has mentioned repeatedly is the fact that if you're an American, the chances are extremely high you've been exposed to Christianity or Christian phraseology and ideas. Of course, she's dealing with fundamentalist fiction with straw-atheist characters that apparently haven't even heard of this whole "Bible" thing, so the subject matter is basically the opposite dichotomy as what Mookie is producing.

And indeed, I'm a Christian apologist myself, so I should know a bit about finding information on it. I was just flanderizing Mookie's laziness for the sake of silly (non-)jokes. I wasn't trying to make any statement or whathaveyou on his actual character.

At the end of the day, he's still a person, not a target. If I can impart that to you guys, it might almost make up for introducing you to the SA thread

[Toast1862]

It's not even just that the babies are disabled. They are also disabled in a way that makes her a legitimate threat to others -- even magical werewolves can be caught off guard, after all, and "Runt" or not, Katya probably still could do some serious damage to any werewolf not as powerful as Milov before being put down.

It's not just a matter of "culling" the weak, it's a matter of public safety. What if Katya went into her rage state near a child?

In real life people who have a condition that makes them a danger to others are locked up for their own and others' safety for the rest of their lives or given a lot of medication to deal with it.

Edit:

Funnily enough, Katya periodically becoming a dangerous furry monster against her will makes her more like a traditional werewolf than the rest of her race.

I was also kind of talking about the first panel here. The humans kill their deformed children, too. Which... like I said, wouldn't be a big deal if the people didn't seem to be educated to about the same level we are.

[Traab]

I was also kind of talking about the first panel here. The humans kill their deformed children, too. Which... like I said, wouldn't be a big deal if the people didn't seem to be educated to about the same level we are.

I dont think it was implied that it was culturally accepted, it was more a terror thing. Imagine it if suddenly random babies were born here that had teeth like the vampires in 30 days of night? People would panic, some would be scared, and some might think the baby is evil. It doesnt make it socially accepted to murder your carnivorous baby, but its something that could happen. Indeed, babies are killed in this day and age for even less reason than tusk mouth.

In reality, killing runts at birth makes way more sense, as they are a known and legitimate threat to the safety of everyone around them. Its not like they are killing babies born with a clubfoot, its like the baby was born with a sign around its neck saying, "I will randomly try to hurt and/or kill you"

[Myrdhale]

Another point to the killing disabled babies thing is that this is a classic fantasy setting. There's no reason to play by modern rules, so the eugenics/kill the weak thing wouldn't be a problem. It'd be horrifying to us to imagine it, but this is a different world in a different time. Except that it isn't. It's a world with comic books and guitars where the word "misogyny" is common knowledge. Mookie just really wants to have it both ways, where he can say they didn't know better in olden times!! for some things, then spend the rest of the time in a completely modernized setting.

Hurgh. I need to go make more eggplant.

yeah this pretty much sums is it up.
It's strange, it's like he wants to have girtty realism and rosey-glasses happy world. The orcs as a proud warrior culture and a bastion of oppression for towards women, never acknowledging both in the same breath.

on that note did Dominic ever call the orcs out on their bull****? like... disapprove of their pratices? He just seemed to think they were cool, in my recollection.

[TheLaughingMan]

on that note did Dominic ever call the orcs out on their bull****? like... disapprove of their pratices? He just seemed to think they were cool, in my recollection.

If Mookie can't find any wrong in them, I'd be more surprised if his two-dimensional avatar did.

[Welf]

Okay, I'm a bit surprised how logical everyone treats that child murder and eugenics thing. It's a controllable condition and they are a society that generates enough surplus to support a ruling class. The orcs had a better economic motivation to get rid of orphaned girls and to check if they are able to produce children.

[Veridis Quo]

Okay, I'm a bit surprised how logical everyone treats that child murder and eugenics thing. It's a controllable condition and they are a society that generates enough surplus to support a ruling class. The orcs had a better economic motivation to get rid of orphaned girls and to check if they are able to produce children.

They seem to referring more from a story perspective than a practical perspective. Given how anachronistic Mookie's setting is this situation with runts is confusing. Given how we see Orc culture react to unwanted youths and what we have seen from spellwolf culture having a book titles "Understanding Runts" it comes across as weird.

Unlike orcish orphans, spellwolf "runt" do pose a legitimate threat to both themselves and others. It's one thing if Milov was keeping her close in order to be there if she has a dangerous transformation, but given how "runts" have been shown to have violent moodswings asking her to escort Jayden anywhere is a really bad call.

Also, we know from the story that spellwolves generally kill their runts close to them being born, so why would this book even exist? What possible situation would a spellwolf publish a book that may never have any practical purpose within their society? If Mookie already established a culturally enforced eugenics program within the spellwolf society, why now are we finding evidence to the contrary? I don't support real life practices like this, but that doesn't mean that a story cannot do so.

[rocketpony]

Also, we know from the story that spellwolves generally kill their runts close to them being born, so why would this book even exist?

The book, if you'll notice, is only about a dozen pages. Most of those pages are just the word "CULL", written in big red letters and a lunatic's hand.
The last few pages are a lengthy discourse about how anyone who doesn't do this is an egg-suck and a chump and probably would even make a pack with hu-mans. Hu-mans! Huuuuu-mans.

[colonelslime]

Okay, I'm a bit surprised how logical everyone treats that child murder and eugenics thing. It's a controllable condition and they are a society that generates enough surplus to support a ruling class. The orcs had a better economic motivation to get rid of orphaned girls and to check if they are able to produce children.

I wouldn't worry too much about it, I don't think anyone here is advocating a culling anytime soon. But, the werewolf culture would seriously seem to lend itself to such a practice. Everything we've seen about them shows them to be a very physical, active species. They are also acknowledged as having more extreme emotions, and as having strong senses of honor and duty. They also live in an extreme climate.* And this condition also makes the sufferer psychologically unstable, moreso than even a normal werewolf. If you wanted to present a culture which acknowledged the practical necessity of only saving children who will one day be able to physically contribute in an equal sense, they would work very well for it. With the orc example, it's a valuation of a girl only for her reproductive capacity, which is a totally different cultural concept.


Like Veridis Quo said, it's not supporting it in real life. Hell, I've used this argument as one of the reasons I value technological progress and wealth accumulation, since the surplus allows us to ensure that a person isn't valued by how much labour they will provide. And the fact that they do have a culture with established institutions, such as universities, implies that the scarcity aspect of their culture no longer exists. So, is it a remnant of an earlier ages? Are there people advocating against it? Did Milov face a backlash from conservative clan-leaders for saving Katya? What happens if she flips out and kills someone, attributed to her being a "runt"? It could have been an interesting story to write. Just not by Mookie obviously.





* which is stupid by the way, I just want to be on the record as saying. Nowhere on Earth is there a land covered in perpetual snow, at least no where humans live. It's a really stupid fantasy cliche to assume everything north of 49 degrees latitude is forever covered in snow and ice. but this is just nitpicking

[Mewtarthio]

Why are they all so attracted to her?! The wolves hate Callanians! They should be shouting racial and nationalistic insults, not sexual ones!

The book, if you'll notice, is only about a dozen pages. Most of those pages are just the word "CULL", written in big red letters and a lunatic's hand.
The last few pages are a lengthy discourse about how anyone who doesn't do this is an egg-suck and a chump and probably would even make a pack with hu-mans. Hu-mans! Huuuuu-mans.

I have nothing to add. You have created perfection.

[BlackDragonKing]

Well, given that a Runt is prone to violent rages but can't transform completely, it is possible that they aren't really a threat to other werewolves, who get a good deal bigger and stronger in their transformed state. In which case it'd be more of a concern for werewolves too young to defend themselves or outsiders combined with a bad response to extremely damaged children. There may be cause for werewolves that don't eliminate their Runts to try and record how they dealt with them.

Also, the werewolves seen here are stupid college kids. They're going to think about sex before race.

[Trazoi]

Also, the werewolves seen here are stupid college kids. They're going to think about sex before race.

I hate the frat boy werewolves so much. I'd previously been able to handwave away Milov acting so violent toward Jayden because I'd imagined werewolves to be strictly based around loyalty, including bonding for life. Then Mookie throws in these American drunken frat boy expies and the whole culture collapses, and the retrospection makes Milov a total monster (just like everyone else). They're much like Maltak orcs in that I'll be relieved when the story dictates they must all horribly die.

[BlackDragonKing]

I hate the frat boy werewolves so much. I'd previously been able to handwave away Milov acting so violent toward Jayden because I'd imagined werewolves to be strictly based around loyalty, including bonding for life. Then Mookie throws in these American drunken frat boy expies and the whole culture collapses, and the retrospection makes Milov a total monster (just like everyone else). They're much like Maltak orcs in that I'll be relieved when the story dictates they must all horribly die.

See, I don't see the part where the frat boy werewolves come into Milov's behavior. For one thing, Milov's a nobleman, which means he's held to much higher standards of behavior than the random kids at the academy, and secondly, Milov's violent outburst comes from the fact that while sapient, his transformed state is still partly to mostly a gigantic, powerful animal being driven by a human mind. A lot of people seem to think that Illusion-Jayden's violent death was something that even registered in Milov's mind while it was happening. I don't think it was. Milov blew up most of his house and was smashing everything around him because he was literally out of his mind with fury and I don't think he was even aware of his surroundings until he'd struck at the illusion. This isn't something like a decision that made sense in Milov's mind at the time because a life-bond had been horribly violated. Milov was somewhere in the back, too stunned to even think, while the wolf was smashing everything and reacted predictably to something approaching it from behind. It was only thinking Jayden was dead that jolted Milov's conscious mind back into action.

[Myrdhale]

See, I don't see the part where the frat boy werewolves come into Milov's behavior. For one thing, Milov's a nobleman, which means he's held to much higher standards of behavior than the random kids at the academy, and secondly, Milov's violent outburst comes from the fact that while sapient, his transformed state is still partly to mostly a gigantic, powerful animal being driven by a human mind. A lot of people seem to think that Illusion-Jayden's violent death was something that even registered in Milov's mind while it was happening. I don't think it was. Milov blew up most of his house and was smashing everything around him because he was literally out of his mind with fury and I don't think he was even aware of his surroundings until he'd struck at the illusion. This isn't something like a decision that made sense in Milov's mind at the time because a life-bond had been horribly violated. Milov was somewhere in the back, too stunned to even think, while the wolf was smashing everything and reacted predictably to something approaching it from behind. It was only thinking Jayden was dead that jolted Milov's conscious mind back into action.

I think it's more the fact that despite this is supposed to be a distinct culture with very different values and outlooks, it all feels like anytown USA. Mookie can info dump all the interesting aspects of Winter Archipelgo culture he wants, doesn't matter if everyone acts just like they do back in Barthis.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

Where it comes in, is that we were TOLD through Milov that the Werewolves held honour quite highly, and when we were there for a short time with the Vacation Arc, we saw that. So far so good.

When have we seen that at all since in werewolf culture? All we've seen since then is Frat Boys. Not a single wolf there in whatever college he's at doesn't fit that stereotype now, with SMALL exception for whatever Nimmel's best friend was, who still basically fit the stereotype.

We're being shown a culture where EVERYONE except the mentally retarded chick are slutty party-hoes or frat boys, and then grow up to somehow magically become the honourable society we saw before and then hardly ever again? I don't believe it.

[Helanna]

What I really want to know is what Mookie thinks college is like. I'm a female in a very male dominated field, but never once have I walked down the street and had guys calling out crude sexual passes at me. I mean, am I just hanging out in the wrong parts of campus?

I have plenty of classes where I'm the only girl, but seriously? Everyone is pretty focused on actually getting the education they're paying for. Nobody's interested in getting expelled for sexual harassment (also, I think most of them are just decent people who wouldn't commit harassment in any case).

Didn't 'hahaha look at those wacky frat guys, totally obsessed with beer and sex and nothing else' go out of style in, like, the 80s or 90s?

Edit: Speaking of, didn't Mookie once mention that he changed the werewolves' culture because he decided that "Noble, honorable northern culture" was overdone? So . . . he decided to replace it with wacky frat guy shenanigans. Because that's totally not overdone at all.

[Trazoi]

We're being shown a culture where EVERYONE except the mentally retarded chick are slutty party-hoes or frat boys, and then grow up to somehow magically become the honourable society we saw before and then hardly ever again? I don't believe it.

And this is the werewolf academy, the place where presumably the best are being trained to be the top werewolves in society. It's hard to say because Mookie put no thought into this whatsoever. All he did was take New England and fill it with naked werewolves (newspost).

As for Milov, in Shadow of Siegfried he went on a rampage that had him attempt to murder Jayden. Then he told everyone in the kingdom and allowed his cousin to attempt to murder Jayden. Then he exiled her and blew up her church.

Now this is Fantasy New England, he's a total monster. But the comic keeps on saying it's all Jayden's fault because she's a cheating harlot. No wait, turns out it's all Siggy again. Curse you Siggy, it's all your fault.

Well at least Milov only tries to murder Jayden instead of being a nasty cat-calling jock.

[Acanous]

What I really want to know is what Mookie thinks college is like. I'm a female in a very male dominated field, but never once have I walked down the street and had guys calling out crude sexual passes at me. I mean, am I just hanging out in the wrong parts of campus?

Don't worry, Helanna, I'm sure if you hit enough seedy bars, you'll find that right mix of self entitlement and drunkenness that will get you some sexual slurs thrown in your direction.

[Mephit]

We're being shown a culture where EVERYONE except the mentally retarded chick are slutty party-hoes or frat boys, and then grow up to somehow magically become the honourable society we saw before and then hardly ever again? I don't believe it.

To be fair, we've mostly seen college werewolves up until now. Whenever we look at werewolves outside of Nimmel's environment (The holy moon dance or whatever it was, Milov, the wolves on that boat is what I can think of) they're actually fairly agreeable beings - apart from, you now, ''kill all Calanians because one cheated on our pal Milov''.

How those werewolves at college are supposed to fit into the rest of the culture or society, I have no clue. Perhaps it isn't really a college, but more an institute for young delinquents that need to be reformed?

[elros]

I think it's pretty clear we have put more thought into werewolf culture than Mookie has...

...unless Mookie has a secret reveal up his sleeve! I suspect that Mookie will show that Luna's tusks are not just related to orcs, but also to werewolf fangs! That way Luna can be their savior too! I can see it now: Jayden is getting depressed, so she reaches out to Luna. Luna heads north and is captured by werewolf jocks (that are actually possessed by Siggy), only to have everyone saved because Dominic uses his awesome "reveal the truth" spell! Then Dominic will reveal that he knew everything would happen all along, but he wanted to give Jayden a chance to reconcile with Milov. Plus, there is now another culture that thinks Luna is the greatest living creature EVER, even though both her and Jayden needed a man to save them (again).

While I'm guessing future plots, I bet that one of Luna's "magic eggs" will be used to resurrect the lost race of Manta-Ray archmage. Then Luna can be the savior of other dimensions too!

[VeliciaL]

What I really want to know is what Mookie thinks college is like. I'm a female in a very male dominated field, but never once have I walked down the street and had guys calling out crude sexual passes at me. I mean, am I just hanging out in the wrong parts of campus?

I have plenty of classes where I'm the only girl, but seriously? Everyone is pretty focused on actually getting the education they're paying for. Nobody's interested in getting expelled for sexual harassment (also, I think most of them are just decent people who wouldn't commit harassment in any case).

Didn't 'hahaha look at those wacky frat guys, totally obsessed with beer and sex and nothing else' go out of style in, like, the 80s or 90s?

Edit: Speaking of, didn't Mookie once mention that he changed the werewolves' culture because he decided that "Noble, honorable northern culture" was overdone? So . . . he decided to replace it with wacky frat guy shenanigans. Because that's totally not overdone at all.

This. We've seen this kind of thing (to a lesser extent) with the bullying at Dom's mom's college too. He seems to be treating college like high school, which... ok, isn't much more of a headscratcher than the rest of the series, but really now...

[Nerd-o-rama]

Mookie's a professional webcomic artist. Even if he went to college, he clearly wasn't paying attention.

I kid, but seriously, I'm pretty sure most of his college experience comes from watching Revenge of the Nerds and Animal House. Or his clearly traumatic high school memories.

[Welf]

I wouldn't worry too much about it, I don't think anyone here is advocating a culling anytime soon. But, the werewolf culture would seriously seem to lend itself to such a practice. Everything we've seen about them shows them to be a very physical, active species. They are also acknowledged as having more extreme emotions, and as having strong senses of honor and duty. They also live in an extreme climate.* And this condition also makes the sufferer psychologically unstable, moreso than even a normal werewolf. If you wanted to present a culture which acknowledged the practical necessity of only saving children who will one day be able to physically contribute in an equal sense, they would work very well for it. With the orc example, it's a valuation of a girl only for her reproductive capacity, which is a totally different cultural concept.


Like Veridis Quo said, it's not supporting it in real life. Hell, I've used this argument as one of the reasons I value technological progress and wealth accumulation, since the surplus allows us to ensure that a person isn't valued by how much labour they will provide. And the fact that they do have a culture with established institutions, such as universities, implies that the scarcity aspect of their culture no longer exists. So, is it a remnant of an earlier ages? Are there people advocating against it? Did Milov face a backlash from conservative clan-leaders for saving Katya? What happens if she flips out and kills someone, attributed to her being a "runt"? It could have been an interesting story to write. Just not by Mookie obviously.

I don't think anybody is supporting child murder. I'm just surprised this doesn't create a fraction the negative emotion the orc culture does.

Mookie's a professional webcomic artist. Even if he went to college, he clearly wasn't paying attention.

I kid, but seriously, I'm pretty sure most of his college experience comes from watching Revenge of the Nerds and Animal House. Or his clearly traumatic high school memories.

Maybe he went to a very, very bad college?

[colonelslime]

I don't think anybody is supporting child murder. I'm just surprised this doesn't create a fraction the negative emotion the orc culture does.

The major difference, I think, is that Mookie has never tried to portray his werewolves as being the best society ever. Whereas he is explicitly on the record as saying he wished people were more like his orcs. Plus, Mookie never tried to justify the infanticide. It's a different cultural practice, but Katya's survival shows that people have their doubts about it, and nobody ever hand waves it away. Whereas with orc culture, well,....

Maybe he went to a very, very bad college?

Didn't he just get a BA in creative writing? From what I know of post-secondary classes of that sort, they can be useful for honing technical skills, but they don't make up for a crippling lack of imagination, or a total ignorance of the world. I think Mookie really does live such a sheltered existence that he still frames everything in terms of high school cliche, well after everyone else has moved on.

Edit: Actually, maybe that's why Mookie's writing has such a cargo cult feel to it. He just writes patterns he vaguely remembers from his college classes, without actually understanding the underlying logic at all.

[Myrdhale]

I don't think anybody is supporting child murder. I'm just surprised this doesn't create a fraction the negative emotion the orc culture does.

As Col. Slime said, Mookie never gave the same kind of "this is how people should be" vibe as he did with the Orcs. The Werewolves were just a different culture, with some practices we might consider barbaric, but hey, can't really do anything about it, it's their land so their rules. Same way I view alot of practices around the world today. I may not like them, but it's completlely beyond my power to affect change in those circumstances so it's pointless to fuss about it.

With the Orcs mookie seemed all enamoured with their vegetarian-herbivore hippy tribal culture and wished the world were more like them. Didn't really adjust his view either when they started raping children and murdering each other for the crops.

[Welf]

The major difference, I think, is that Mookie has never tried to portray his werewolves as being the best society ever. Whereas he is explicitly on the record as saying he wished people were more like his orcs. Plus, Mookie never tried to justify the infanticide. It's a different cultural practice, but Katya's survival shows that people have their doubts about it, and nobody ever hand waves it away. Whereas with orc culture, well,....

That's a good explanation. But it still feels strange.

Didn't he just get a BA in creative writing? From what I know of post-secondary classes of that sort, they can be useful for honing technical skills, but they don't make up for a crippling lack of imagination, or a total ignorance of the world. I think Mookie really does live such a sheltered existence that he still frames everything in terms of high school cliche, well after everyone else has moved on.

Edit: Actually, maybe that's why Mookie's writing has such a cargo cult feel to it. He just writes patterns he vaguely remembers from his college classes, without actually understanding the underlying logic at all.

I consider a college one can leave without curiosity for the world and a certain imagination a very, very bad college.

[Myrdhale]

I consider a college one can leave without curiosity for the world and a certain imagination a very, very bad college.

Is that always the college's fault though or can it be the student's for not ever trying to move out of his narrow comfort zone?

[Traab]

And this is the werewolf academy, the place where presumably the best are being trained to be the top werewolves in society. It's hard to say because Mookie put no thought into this whatsoever. All he did was take New England and fill it with naked werewolves (newspost).

As for Milov, in Shadow of Siegfried he went on a rampage that had him attempt to murder Jayden. Then he told everyone in the kingdom and allowed his cousin to attempt to murder Jayden. Then he exiled her and blew up her church.

Now this is Fantasy New England, he's a total monster. But the comic keeps on saying it's all Jayden's fault because she's a cheating harlot. No wait, turns out it's all Siggy again. Curse you Siggy, it's all your fault.

Well at least Milov only tries to murder Jayden instead of being a nasty cat-calling jock.

Im pretty sure what happened to illusionary jayden was an accident, someone approached him from behind in mid rage, he turned and swung and went "OHSHI-!" And jayden was the one who "just let" the runt attack her, milov wasnt even there when it happened. As far as telling everyone what jayden did, meh, at least we finally have a political leader that ISNT obsessed with covering up his personal scandal events.