Civilization 4 succession game: WAR!

[ObadiahtheSlim]

When the economy goes to crap because of REX or war conquest, switch over to a specialist economy for a time till your population can support you. Libraries running scientists can help your research even when you are just breaking even at 0% research.

[Murska]

There's a bunch of techs people have that we don't have, mainly the Mysticism line and Horseback Riding for the Mongols (who no longer have horses ), but we're generally disliked.

Also we don't have a religion yet even though some of them have spread to some of our cities. We should decide what to pick, depending on the politics and where the bonus is most needed.

[happyturtle]

What nickname did you give the Swordsman anyway?

1. Happyturtle
2. Murska
>>> 3. The Final Stand Due by June 24<<<
4. TerraOblivion
5. Winthur

Wait, Mansa won't trade with us?

Mansa? The tech whore?

[Winthur]

It also means we have neither commerce, nor research in the short run. I have no idea how you recover from that, since Research -> Buildings that make Money -> Money -> Research in my mind.

In short, this is almost certainly me being terrible at Civ again.

Fear not, it's just a common misconception that requires clearing up and has a lot to do with the commonly accepted "meta-game". Let me attempt to explain:

There are a few technologies in this game which serve as economical milestones for upstart empires. The most important one would be Pottery (cottages), followed by Writing (libraries, scientists, potential Academy), followed by Currency (+1 trade routes and the ability to build Wealth, and also Markets), with Code of Laws as the last piece (Courthouses, though they're expensive for non-Organized civilizations), usually in a build-up towards Civil Service (Bureaucracy). The next tier of science breakthroughs are Education and the race to Liberalism.

Now, when you make a new city, it doesn't pay for itself when it is Size 1 and doesn't have buildings and isn't working (improved) resources yet. You still have to pay maintenance for it though. This is where Workers come to play, building it up to size and making sure it works as much improved tiles as possible.

Now imagine we are actually not going to stop expanding. We are actually going to go 0% science. And that's perfectly fine. As long as our economy can be sustained by either of the techs I outlined above, we will be able to thrive. Even if our scientific progress is reduced to a crawl, our cities are growing, the cottages they're supporting are growing, they're building new infrastructure, they're bringing more commerce and production, they're running Scientists if necessary.

Note that we are playing on a difficulty above Noble. Which means that the AI has an advantage, therefore we aren't facing it equally. Now on Monarch it isn't that big of an advantage, but on Emperor your best strategy is pretty much playing "catch up". Sure, you can run a 6-city empire with 80% research and 100 commerce (which means 80 beakers per turn). You can also run a 12 city empire with 40% research and 200 commerce - which again means 80 beakers per turn, but each city has more food, more resources, more production, and allows you to make more plays - you can make more Great People, you can make a bigger army and acquire more cities, you can go for National Wonders more easily, you can fine-tune your empire (it's easier to find a "perfect"), you will likely have more resources, and you aren't stagnating -- after all, if your 6 city empire has 5 cottages per. Not to mention each of these cities is going to have a Library or University or Monastery or other science multiplier, which means your "weaker" economy is going to outstrip a "stable" one, so the difference in beakers is going to be bigger.

Also, note that any city in this game can be made productive. You can make a crappy backwater village in the South Pole just to supply your other cities with Silver or Fur (common resources in tundra/ice tiles). Your entire empire gets bonus happiness points which is huge. Your little backwater city won't produce much by itself, but it will be connected to the trade route with the rest of your empire and will at least, in time, grant enough commerce to at least pay for itself. Bonus points if said filler city has water tiles, which are some of the best tiles to make a crappy city productive (though they're not as attractive for cities with okay land tiles) if only because coastal cities tend to provide more lucrative trade routes.

Tl;dr: We are basically making a big investment. Right now the tech situation looks bad, but as long as we are capable of crawling towards what is necessary for us (we only need a few choice techs in the tech tree, and the rest can be backfilled later or bought from neighbors) we are in a good spot, and it's going to pay off later when we have a bigger, stronger empire.

That is to say, there are a plethora of strategies where small empires can be just as strong as big ones (such as the World Wonder Economy), but generally, land and population are the most powerful things, and it's not uncommon for an empire that was struggling with its upkeep costs in 1 AD to suddenly become a powerhouse on all fronts by 1300 AD.

The only real slip-up that could happen to us if we handle the situation poorly and miss the Liberalism race, but that shouldn't happen since we're not even in a "terrible" economical situation. We can handle this.

Also, on an off-note, are we going for Great Library? We could trade Alphabet for Aesthetics. We have Marble. Thoughts?

EDIT: ROTFL, in the time it took me to write this everyone provided a shorter and more clear explanation. >_>

EDIT 2: We miiiiight want to adopt Hinduism pretty soon because we are, after all, neighboring with the bloodthirsty Mongols.

EDIT 3: Also, we don't need more Swordsmen or any other battle units at all, they're costing us upkeep. If we get DoW'd on then we are going to just whip out a lot of defense. Focus on the infrastructure and growing. Also, I got a tip from Eldariel: we might want to gift excess resources to neighbors for bonus diplomacy points. (Health resources take priority over happiness or strategic ones, of course)

[Murska]

The thing is, the Mongols are see-sawing between aiming to DoW on us or aiming to DoW on Saladin. If we maintain Power above Saladin, they're more likely to head that way, which will save us the costs of all that whipping. Plus, we can't work Wealth yet since Currency isn't in, so cities can pretty much build walls, workers or military units - obviously Workers are great, but variety is good.

Mansa probably would trade to us but the only thing he has that we don't is Mysticism and we, on the other hand, don't have anything he doesn't.

[tyckspoon]

Since Turfan flipped Genghis currently has no access to any strategic materials (iron/copper/horses), correct? .. shame we've decided to play defensively for so long, that makes for an excellent opportunity to go ahead and take him (or at least his capital) out. Oh well.. as long as that still holds, I don't think he's much of a threat; as long as there are enough units to absorb any Keshiks he already has built the Iron-based units we have should easily fend off the early junk he'll be forced to use.

(If he does declare on us, is it permissible for us to send a raiding stack into his land to pillage his improvements and camp on his corn/rice/cow tiles? Also, probably the best result is if he declares on Saladin, then Saladin asks us to 'help', at which point we agree for the relationship bonus and then carry on with life as normal while Genghis wastes all his effort trying to beat up Saladin.)

[Murska]

He's got Iron. If you check the screenshot where the conquers that Barb city, he had something like six Swordsmen walking up there. Also, his Power is the largest in the game at the moment.

[The_Final_Stand]

Ok, ok, its short term loss, long term game, gotcha. Though that doesn't actually answer the question of "What are the objectives?".

Trust me, if I don't have objectives, then what happens will primarily be dictated by what the computer recommends. And as we have just established, this is not always optimal.

So, what do I do?

[tyckspoon]

Oh, derp. So he does. I don't suppose we know where his mine(s) are in case we need to knock them out/want to start sending spies up there to keep it suppressed?

[Murska]

The iron mine I think is right on his border with Saladin, as far away from us as is possible.

Someone decide the exact location of our next city. As for objectives, I don't really know much beyond continuing to cut down jungle and develop our land, connect our new cities to our road network, build some more workers, perhaps start on Markets in the best cities once Currency rolls in.

We should decide if we're going for any Wonders and if so, which.

[Eldariel]

The thing is, the Mongols are see-sawing between aiming to DoW on us or aiming to DoW on Saladin. If we maintain Power above Saladin, they're more likely to head that way, which will save us the costs of all that whipping. Plus, we can't work Wealth yet since Currency isn't in, so cities can pretty much build walls, workers or military units - obviously Workers are great, but variety is good.

Mansa probably would trade to us but the only thing he has that we don't is Mysticism and we, on the other hand, don't have anything he doesn't.

You can build Research though, which will do lacking Wealth. Also, you could build Mids (or wonders in general) for Fail Gold.

[Murska]

Guess so. I've conditioned myself over the years to not start building a Wonder that takes like 60 turns because it's not going to help.

[Eldariel]

Guess so. I've conditioned myself over the years to not start building a Wonder that takes like 60 turns because it's not going to help.

Failgold always helps. It's like Wealth Lite

[The_Final_Stand]

So, not many objectives. Connect furthest city to trade network, build markets and workers and improvements, and generally don't screw up.

Ok.

[The_Final_Stand]

Turn 10; The Time Of Emptyness

When Cathy wisely hired me as her consultant, things were grim in the Empire. We were running a deficit, even with all the money diverted from the scientists. We are surrounded by the Khan, who looks to expand his empire, by Saladin, who despises all who are not himself, and by Mansa Musa, who is also there.

All is not lost, however. The scientists approach a breakthrough on something called "Currency", which they assure me will solve all our economy problems. I am sceptical.

425 B.C.
I Ascend to the vaunted position of the Right Hand of Cathy. Who or what she has in her Left Hand, only she knows.

365 B.C.
Some mumbo jumbo called "Confucianism" spreads in our recent aquisition from the Khan.

350 B.C.
The City of Tunguska is founded between Ulm and Borealum.

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335 B.C.
Lots of stuff happens. The Sage Herodotus finishes his Great Work, a list of the Most Cultured Civilisations. The Empire is second only to Saladin in this respect, though Cathy has graciously neglected to order him decapitated as thanks for naming her "Cathy the Great the Great".

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The Khan arrives on the doorstep of the Palace angrily demanding that Cathy cease all current deals with Mansa Musa. Cathy politely considers his request then politely orders him to get out.

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The scientists finally complete their work on "Currency". The new shiny pieces are distributed to all the cities, and the richer cities begin work on markets.

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320 B.C.
The census has determined that the Empire now stands 1 million souls strong.

At the same time, the same Confucianism stuff spreads in Tunguska.

290 B.C.
A barbarian galley is sighted off the coast of Ulm.

275 B.C.
Mansa Musa, upset that we researched something before him, comes begging for the Tech of Currency. Cathy, noting that we have few enough friends, grants his request so as to forge a stronger bond. Mansa leaves delighted, only to be punched in the face by Saladin, who storms in and immediately demands we cease trading with Mansa.

Guess how that went.

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(Hint, I denied his request)

245 B.C.
A different type of what my advisors call "religion", known by the name of "Hinduism" spreads in St Petersburg. Meanwhile, that barbarian Galley finally does something and destroys the clam farm off the shore of Ulm.

230 B.C.
My spies report that a Great Spy has been born in a far off land. I'm not convinced of his brilliance, given that we know about him now.

215 B.C.
Hinduism spreads in Muscovy. Mansa Musa decides to Organise his Religious needs.

200 B.C.
I retire today. It has been a long 225 years, serving the Empress, but entirely worth it. Clearly, my rule was so great and just, that Muscovy celebrates "We Love The Despot" day to remember my passing.

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The Map as of the end of my turn.

Save.

So, things I did but should have done differently:
City placement, probably.
Giving Currency to Mansa. We have no friends, and I'd much rather that Mansa be on our side than we have no-one on our side. Trying to avoid any possibly scenario that we could be declared on from two fronts.
Putting cities on Wealth and Research when no "useful" buildings could be built.
Didn't defend that Work Boat, or order a replacement.
No whipping.

[Terraoblivion]

Looking over things I'm trying to work out where to go from here. We definitely need to get that whipping going, we need markets pretty quickly to dig our economy out of this hole. However, I kinda think getting more workers out is the bigger concern at this moment. Except for resources, our lands are barely improved and that's hardly ideal. Especially given how quickly a lot of our cities grow.

Speaking of that, I think we can squeeze another one in between the line at the bottom and the line just south of Moscow, but I'll be damned if I know where would be the best place. Somewhere around the rice, but not sure beyond that.

Also, you're right, handing off a current tech, and one as good as Currency at that, to Mansa Musa of all people wasn't a good idea. It's a really small relations boost, but it gives him a massive boost and he already seems to be running away with science at a crazy rate, given that he has Philosophy already. At the very least he has the following techs over us: Mysticism, Meditation or Polytheism, Priesthood, Code of Laws, Philosophy and Construction. He might well have more. He really doesn't need help with tech right now.

[Eldariel]

Just something to think about, you have enough commerce-friendly land and natural commerce that you could skip Markets if you feel so inclined, and go straight for research. A bit down the line it seems unlikely you'll want to run slider very low anyways so gold improvements give lower gains than research improvements (the deficit can then be offset via. Wealth, trades & some percentages lower research rating). And yeah, land is definitely the most important thing.

EDIT: Just to expand upon this, this is actually a rather common move simply because Markets cost a lot of hammers so for them to provide more gold than you'd get by just building Wealth instead, you'd have to run them long and in high efficiency; and generally you'll have plenty of gold lategame anyways while it's in short supply now so the immediate wealth is often more valuable than the longterm wealth from Markets. If the happiness comes into play of course, it can change the equation from situation to situation.

[Winthur]

I'd actually be inclined to heed Genghis Khan's demand for ending the deals with Mansa because this way we avoid annoying our neighbors (and we want to kiss up to them) and we also avoid Mansa even coming forward to us with the plea to grab Currency from us. True, we shut down the trade route with the biggest techie in the game, but maybe it wasn't made clear enough that we are trying to ally with Hindus right now and ravage their lands later.

[Terraoblivion]

Oh, and another reason. Mansa Musa will give us way less trouble if he's angry than Genghis will, he's not really an aggressive AI.

[ObadiahtheSlim]

Should have traded currency with him as soon as you had it. Coulda picked up a ton of great techs with it. Also cutting trade relations via demand would mean you can't talk to him for a very long time. I rarely ever do it unless I'm planning on going to war against the person anyway.

[happyturtle]

1. Happyturtle
2. Murska
3. The Final Stand
>>> 4. TerraOblivion Due by June 30<<<
5. Winthur

Don't worry about it, Stand. It was a mistake, but mistakes happen. One thing we can (and probably should) do is to go Hindu and bribe Genghis to war on Mansa (possibly with Currency to prevent Mansa getting to sell it for something, if he hasn't already) to slow down Mansa's teching. Of course Genghis will drag in Saladin, and they'll both try to drag us in too, but we can say no to that.

Genghis will DOW on us if we don't divert him soon. We're getting negatives from flipping his tiles and we can't share his favourite civic (Police State). Plus he'll want to take his horse city back. If we can get him warring for us though, he could be quite useful. The nice thing is that if Genghis takes any of Mansa's cities, we might culture flip them without having to do anything, since he'll just build units in them - plus they'll be killing him in distance maintenance. We're unlikely to culture flip them as long as Mansa owns them.

Terra, are you able to take your turn?

[Terraoblivion]

Yeah, I'll take it tomorrow.

[Terraoblivion]

Coming into power in the year 200 Before Cathy, I survey our lands and see the many great improvements of my predecessors. The impenetrable jungles of the south have been settled and begun being put to use. However, not all is well. The slaves are slacking and are growing fat from their peaceful life and much of the land lacks even the most basic improvement to become productive. This sorry state of affair is a great affront to the glory of mighty Cathy and a weakness eating at the great Russian people. I also looked at our relations with our neighbors, seeing a grim picture of a smug, rich man to the south refusing to share his wealth and violent barbarians who hate us to the north and east. Thinking over what might get the two problems to solve each other, I finally conclude that there is nothing to be done other than pray they see wisdom. If those prayers happen to be Hindu ones, all the better.

Turn 0: Whip Moscow, queuing a worker up next. Whip New Garage and queue a market up. Whip Ulm and queue a galley to protect future workboats. Messing around with diplomacy there doesn't appear to be anything that can easily appease either Saladin or the Khan, nor anyway to make Mansa Musa cheaply part with his techs. Only thing I think we can do diplomatically at the moment is convert to Hinduism and hope it staves off their wrath long enough that a solution can be found, so I took the chance and did that. I did notice something interesting, however, apparently some Mongol city called Old Sarai has so much Russian culture that it shows up as something we can liberate. I can't find it anywhere on the map, though.

Turn 3: Calendar comes in and going for the discussed plan of getting the Great Library, I set course for literature. The path does go through Mysticism and Polytheism, slowing us down by a few turns, however. Still, it's not too bad. No trades with either Mansa or Saladin present themselves, though. Just how bad the worker crunch is becomes apparent, however. Especially since most of the works were in the south building extra improvements for fledgling cities, rather than keeping up with the growth of the mature ones in the north.

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Turn 4: Mansa Musa keeps running away with the tech race, researching Theology to go along with Philosophy. In BC years. Mysticism coming in reveals that unsurprisingly he has both Meditation and Polytheism. We will need to find a way to get another AI to cripple this guy fast or we'll be crushed by his superior tech.

Turn 5: In the interest of appeasing Genghis and getting some spare change, I sell him Mysticism for 60 gold. Quite a good deal for that outdated a tech anyway. We also get a quest to build seven stables before the renaissance.

Turn 7: Polytheism comes in as well, as does a surprisingly good trade with Mansa Musa. In exchange for the one tech we had over him, Calendar, we cleared up the old religious techs as well as getting some more spare change that went straight into deficit research. I forgot to take a screenshot, however.

Turn 8: Crack the whip like crazy. The markets in The Pub and St. Patricksburg are whipped, as is the lighthouse in Turfan.

Turn 9: All the whipped buildings come in, being replaced with a worker in The Pub, a Temple in that ridiculously fast growing city of St. Patricksburg and a Library in Turfan. I also trade Calendar for Monarchy with Saladin. I don't switch yet, since I want us to get as far ahead as possible towards Literature.

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Turn 11: A settler to fill out that last little hole to the south is queued up in Moscow. Still not entirely sure where is the best place to put him, though.

The rest of my turnset is filled with peaceful land development and Aesthetics coming in. Turns out that Mansa Musa beat us to that one too. Still, we've been catching up some to him and greatly widening the tech gap between us on one hand and the rest of the Hindus on the other.

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Diplomatically things have cooled quite a bit with the Malinese thanks to diverging religions, but on the other hand they're less dire with the Mongols and the Arabians. Especially the latter has experienced quite a big change, enough so that we might be able to bribe him into attacking Mansa Musa if we have something good enough to offer. Also important to notice is the fact that Genghis Khan refuses to go to war with Mansa Musa not because he's got too much on his hands, but simply because he doesn't like us enough. Seems like we have a bit more time to win him over before he attacks.

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Which is good since we've dropped to fourth in soldiers and our economy is surprisingly weak for the time being, though once our cities have regrown from my aggressive whipping that should fix itself.

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As a final thought, I think we ought to open borders with Genghis soon and start exploring to the east and finding his and Saladin's cities. It should help our trade and it'll be useful knowing down the line.

And here's the save.

[Winthur]

Thoughts on gifting Genghis some techs (Alphabet, for instance) and seeing if it tips him over into DOWing on Mali?

[Terraoblivion]

Worth the risk, I'd say. He's hopelessly behind on tech anyway, so if we want to ever use him as an attack dog helping him catch up will benefit us in addition to the diplomatic gains.

[happyturtle]

1. Happyturtle
2. Murska
3. The Final Stand
4. TerraOblivion
>>> 5. Winthur Due by July 2<<<

I was going to suggest tech gifting.

[Terraoblivion]

Oh, hey, Winthur. You there?

[Murska]

Hmm... Probably just forgot.

[Winthur]

Sclerosis. For some crazy reason I thought it was still Terra's turn; only today I realized I'm a dumbo. I'm gonna try ginkgo biloba first, and the save game in a moment.

To clarify, I basically checked the save then next day I thought I'm still waiting on someone else's turnset. _-_

[Winthur]

Okay, I took a look around everywhere. Cities seem to be managed much better now that we actually have workers. We have expanded well. I'm gunning for one more filler city that would claim another fish and copper tile in the south-east, but I am not sure if I can get there before the Malinese culture. It's mostly to deny them that piece of coast, though.

Moscow also has a ton of happy people that should be getting born, so after Settlers it's infrastructure time.

Or so I would have planned, except on turn 2 this happens:

Nota bene I didn't gift Genghis anything because I realized it would only tip him over to Cautious at most and he still declares war at Cautious.

So, it is on.

I whip Walls on the next turn when we got declared on. We lost a Galley to the Barbarians, on a side note. Turfan, the front line city, has Walls and a bunch of mixed defenders with Combat I. More reinforcements are swarming.

Literature is finished. Mansa doesn't have it. He does have Drama though, so he can go for Music. I go for Music anyway though. It's worth a shot, though we should be thinking of Civil Service. Ah well, I decide to be risky.

With Literature, Great Library will take a few turns in Moscow. As I keep reinforcing Turfan, the Mongolian forces back away from it. Which probably means that as long as we can keep focus on one part of our empire, we can defend until we can sue for peace.

I managed to found another backwater city in the south-east to grab more land and resources, like I said.

Genghis suicided some of his forces at Turfan, we lose nothing.

In a few more turns, he signs a peace treaty with us and we even get 90 gold out of the deal, making the entire thing...

ENTIRELY POINTLESS

To be fair, it did kinda slow our development but on the plus side we shouldn't feel threatened anymore and we can just go on and snowball from our position.

You know you are bad at warmonging when a civilization completes The Great Library in the middle of your conflict like it's nothing. BTW, that civilization happens to be Russia.

Also, the city of MASSOLIT in the south east has no defender at the moment, but that's a calculated risk, I just couldn't afford a proper defender at the time, thinking the poor sob had an actual SoD at his disposal. But now, there's an Axeman going that way.

We can backfill our empire with one more city to claim the rice and some grassland tiles. We probably should, too.

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