Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"

[Squark]

Any thoughts on who the best Allies for Space Wolves are?
(Hint; It's Eldar, Imperial Guard or Space Marines, but I want you to tell me why.)

Which Warlord column is best for Wolves? Would a Special Character's abilities change what column you would normally pick?

I knew I forgot something. I'll add Allies and Warlord traits later.

[Renegade Paladin]

Had my first game of 6th this afternoon. Totally forgot about Deny the Witch, but I think the librarian dreadnought Perils-ing his last hull point off made up for it. I used an old 5th edition list that probably should have been changed around quite a bit.

My opponent, knowing he was playing against Guard, tried to just declare that all his power weapons were power mauls (thus making them all S6 AP4, good enough to ID Guardsmen and beat every armor in the codex except Straken and the techpriest) without modeling, but I told him to stuff it. The new assault rules wasted my blob's power weapons even though I deployed them right in the middle (he had enough attacks to just chew straight through to the sergeants, and Look Out, Sir! doesn't work every time) and cost me the game because he was able to neutralize almost all my scoring units by taking out everything that could effectively strike back before my initiative. The Devil Dog with multimelta converted a Predator into a crater every turn, though, so I think I'll stick with it.

[Cheesegear]

My opponent, knowing he was playing against Guard, tried to just declare that all his power weapons were power mauls (thus making them all S6 AP4, good enough to ID Guardsmen and beat every armor in the codex except Straken and the techpriest) without modeling, but I told him to stuff it.

That's what you're supposed to do. Well played.
The rule for Power Weapons is WYSIWYG. It's quite clear that what is on the model, is what the model has. And you really can't get around it.

[Wyntonian]

That's what you're supposed to do. Well played.
The rule for Power Weapons is WYSIWYG. It's quite clear that what is on the model, is what the model has. And you really can't get around it.

eeep. I just played a 5th ed game against Chaos Demons. The IG with bayonets were bloodletters of Khorne, the one without were pink horrors and some guys with fuzzy hats were Flamers of Tzeentch.

My SM's won, but my entire command squad was wiped out (save the captain) by three flamers of Tzeentch. Oh, and bloodletters are FREAKING TERRIFYING.

[Zorg]

With the announcement of Forgeworld releasing a Book 1 of the Horus Heresy this fall, it was nice to get a glimpse at what is on the horizon. Multiple books are scheduled, as many as 8, with the first book featuring the Luna Wolves and Dark Angels and expected for an October Release.


Please remember that these are rumors.

via a "must remain anonymous source"
I was talking to ******** about it and they said that it would be several books not one (one said 6+ another said, "yeah, 8"), the first of which begins after "A Galaxy in Flames" in terms of Time-Line, so there will not be rules for the Legions before the heresy (i.e. Loyalist Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus, Death Guard, Emperor's Children).


Each book will focus on a specific thread of the campaign toward terra, culminating in a final book which will be the battle for terra itself.


Books will contain expanded fluff for the 2-3 Legions contained within and campaign rules for playing out a particular series of battles with "benchmark" missions that are historic. Think the Badab war campaign.


It is being worked on congruently with Imperial Armour and will not delay or impact the IA series.


There will be new rules for the Legion standard, and will not use "Legion Tactics" (ala Chapter Tactics) variation based on special character, but will instead be edited in some way based on simply nominating the Legion you're using.


The current forecast for models will be upgrade packages -- specifically shoulder pads for the various legions and special characters. These special characters will all be unique and new, and not those from the Black Library series.


Primarchs will be featured and will have models, but are apocalypse only.


The first book is expected for October and will feature Luna Wolves and Dark Angels in terms of fluff and models, but no word on what campaign it will involve.

And some rather amusing observations from Sons of Taurus on Star Wars and 6th edition.


Edit: And Goatboy has a quick rundown on some of the new Daemon rules.

[Hawkfrost000]

What warlord trait tree is best for an archon equipped thusly?

Archon
Huskblade
Shadowfield
Combat Drugs
Soultrap

DM

[Cheesegear]

My SM's won, but my entire command squad was wiped out (save the captain) by three flamers of Tzeentch. Oh, and bloodletters are FREAKING TERRIFYING.

Chaos Daemons are a lot less powerful in 6th. They've had an update (August's White Dwarf), but they really didn't get anything out of it except for the Terminator-Killer Buff for Screamers.

Yeah, Daemons are pretty powerful in the 'casual' meta-game because everything is Invulnerable and they all have Eternal Warrior. On paper it seems really good (it should be), but Chaos Daemons' effectiveness is inversely proportional to how much Shooty power your opponent has.

What warlord trait tree is best for an archon equipped thusly?

It doesn't really matter what you're equipped with that makes your Warlord. It's what the rest of your army does. So, what you should do, is go through each column and add up how many per column you can actually use. Then whichever has the most good ones, you take. Sure, one of the abilities might be super-helpful to you, but it's random rolled and you want the best chance of getting something good, instead of something you're never going to use.

For example; Your Archon is Ld10. If you roll a '1' on your Command Trait, everyone within 12" also gets Ld10. Well, DE are minimum Ld8, and should usually be Ld9 anyway. Is that useful? How often will your Archon be within 12" of everyone?

It largely depends on how many Warriors, Wyches or Wracks you're using. Nearly all the Strategic Traits are about Reserve manipulation and it's few and far between that anybody will use it.

At the end though; The Warlord Trait system is inherently broken as you actually can lose a game based on that single dice roll. 4 and 5 on the Personal System are messed up.

[thereaper]

That's what you're supposed to do. Well played.
The rule for Power Weapons is WYSIWYG. It's quite clear that what is on the model, is what the model has. And you really can't get around it.

So what do you do when you want a model to be equipped with something that they don't make for that model? As an example, they don't sell sister superiors with storm bolters or Inquisitors with chainswords (as far as I know, anyway).

[Tome]

So what do you do when you want a model to be equipped with something that they don't make for that model? As an example, they don't sell sister superiors with storm bolters or Inquisitors with chainswords (as far as I know, anyway).

For most option you can get away with proxies or counts as, but power weapons are explicitly WYSIWYG.

[Borgh]

So what do you do when you want a model to be equipped with something that they don't make for that model? As an example, they don't sell sister superiors with storm bolters or Inquisitors with chainswords (as far as I know, anyway).

Those are actually quite easy. It involves a saw or knife, some glue and spare bits you got out of other kits or bought seperately from a bits store.

EDIT: while on the subject, would anyone mind me putting a ranged-dread on a slightly higher base if I clearly marked where his eyes would be in the normal situation?

[Cheesegear]

So what do you do when you want a model to be equipped with something that they don't make for that model? As an example, they don't sell sister superiors with storm bolters or Inquisitors with chainswords (as far as I know, anyway).

The official answer from GW is "Too bad, get converting."

If you want a different answer, you're in the realm of Counts As, and I can't help you with that since I'm not your opponent or your TO...Who are also likely to say "Too bad, get converting."

[SynissterSyster]

Howdy everypony. I got a few questions and hoping y'all can help a pony out.

At my local game store yesterday I was watching a great game of Space Marines vs Necrons. Necrons won. After I was reading the rule book and a few things game to mind.

For Hit & Run. Way I am reading it is that H&R is best for assault. Get ing and get out. One of the players used it as shoot and then move away. Is this correct way of using H&R?

Eldar Jet Bikes. Just an observation but wow this makes for some far moving units. Turbo Boosting can go 36". Using Bladevanes with DE Reavers makes for some nice carving through units.

Bladevanes. Now what confuses me is how the S4 AP- works. I figure it ignores armor but well I just don't get how they work. As in it looks like they hit automaticly but how do I determin if they wound? Does the other guy get armor saves or use toughness?

Fleet and Jump units. Reading this brought up a big question. Jump units can re roll their die when charging into assault. Fleet lets you re roll one or both die when charging correct? If true then if a unit is Jump and Fleet do I get two re rolls or just one?

Thanks!

[Eldan]

AP - means no armour penetration, not ignoring armour. The enemy always uses their full armour. And of course, you still roll to wound using your strength.

[Sheep Overlord]

Now what confuses me is how the S4 AP- works. I figure it ignores armor but well I just don't get how they work.

I'm by no means an expert but this part at least I can help with AP- does NOT mean it ignores armor - actually the opposite. It will never, ever ignore armor (guardsmen lasguns are also AP-).

[Zorg]

For Hit & Run. Way I am reading it is that H&R is best for assault. Get ing and get out. One of the players used it as shoot and then move away. Is this correct way of using H&R?

No. Hit & Run is only used to leave close combat (Initiative test and fall back 3D6 with no sweeping advance).

The unit may have been using a special move Jet Pack and Eldar Jetbike units get to use in the Assault phase.

Eldar Jet Bikes. Just an observation but wow this makes for some far moving units. Turbo Boosting can go 36". Using Bladevanes with DE Reavers makes for some nice carving through units.

Bladevanes. Now what confuses me is how the S4 AP- works. I figure it ignores armor but well I just don't get how they work. As in it looks like they hit automaticly but how do I determin if they wound? Does the other guy get armor saves or use toughness?

Bladevanes have special rules in their codex - they pick one unit they boosted over and do a number of automatic hits based on the type of bladevanes equipped (eg D3 hits per bike - so three bikes do 3D3 hits in total). The rolls to wound are as any other attack, as are armour saves.

Fleet and Jump units. Reading this brought up a big question. Jump units can re roll their die when charging into assault. Fleet lets you re roll one or both die when charging correct? If true then if a unit is Jump and Fleet do I get two re rolls or just one?

You can only ever re-roll a dice once (pg5), so you'd use Fleet if you rolled one good dice and one bad (as the re-roll is one or more), or Jump Pack rules when you need to re-roll both (as it is re-roll all dice).
It is also important to note that a model can only use a jump pack once per turn - so they could use it to move 12" or get a re-roll on Assault distance.
The advantage of having both Fleet and Jump Pack would be the ability to move 12" in the move phase ignoring terrain, then use Fleet to re-roll a charge distance.

[SynissterSyster]

I would hug you all. Thanks for the clear up. Being DE my jump units are Hellions and Scourge so now I can understand how they work. I figured Hit & Run worked like the rules said. I think the gaming store still needs to get used to 6th edition and read a lot of the FAQs. Thanks again so much for how bladevanes work. I can understand that. Much love to you all.

[Wraith]

No. Hit & Run is only used to leave close combat (Initiative test and fall back 3D6 with no sweeping advance).

The unit may have been using a special move Jet Pack and Eldar Jetbike units get to use in the Assault phase.

Warp Spiders and Autarchs with a Warp Jump Generator can make a 'free' move in lieu of Assaulting.

I'm not entirely sure how this occurred in a battle between Space Marines vs. Necrons, although I'm not incredibly familiar with the latter so I'm not saying it's impossible.
Can you remember, Syster, which side was making this move?

[SynissterSyster]

@Wraith

Memory serving me correctly it was like this. Space Marines were against a LychGuard unit with shields. Marines fired and moved away during shooting phase. Marine player was using Hit & Run. I don't believe they were in CC but I could be wrong. I am positive the marines fired then advanced backwards after firing.

[BoSheck]

Had my first game of Sixth Edition! Ravenwing vs. Vanilla Marines. The lists were pretty basic. Sam in a speeder + a bunch of bike guys, two Contemptor Mortid Dreads, and speeders for me. A bunch of guys in Rhinos, sniper scouts, a Libby, a rifleman, pedro cantor and some shooty terminators for him. We played purge the heretic with mysterious objectives. Which were kind of funny, since my mm/typhoons were scoring, and I was able to reveal all but one objective turn 1, and pick the best bonuses. I swept him from left to right with a wave of zoomy guns torrenting down the contents of rhinos every turn. We had a good time, though.

Many things were learned! Random tables are bad! The rulebook is clunkily lain out, and having to reference multiple pages every time you approach terrain or an objective is annoying, to say the least. But it made for some chuckles. My personal feelings are: Mobility still wins DnD 40k, and Jink saves are just what the doctor ordered for bikes. I feel good about random charges, and now landspeeders can move twelve and fire both their weapons still, so that's nice. Hull points are cool, anyone who's played in a few tournaments in 5th knows how frustrating Immortal Rhinos were.

[Renegade Paladin]

Howdy everypony. I got a few questions and hoping y'all can help a pony out.

First: The Imperium's official stance on friendship, magic, and sapient ponies.

Spoiler

Show

At my local game store yesterday I was watching a great game of Space Marines vs Necrons. Necrons won. After I was reading the rule book and a few things game to mind.

For Hit & Run. Way I am reading it is that H&R is best for assault. Get ing and get out. One of the players used it as shoot and then move away. Is this correct way of using H&R?

No, it isn't. Hit and Run explicitly works only to leave assault at the end of any assault phase. If the player was truly using Hit and Run for that instead of a jet pack or something, then he applied the rule incorrectly.

Eldar Jet Bikes. Just an observation but wow this makes for some far moving units. Turbo Boosting can go 36". Using Bladevanes with DE Reavers makes for some nice carving through units.

Bladevanes. Now what confuses me is how the S4 AP- works. I figure it ignores armor but well I just don't get how they work. As in it looks like they hit automaticly but how do I determin if they wound? Does the other guy get armor saves or use toughness?

AP-, as noted above, means that it does not penetrate armor. If AP- meant the weapon ignored armor, Guard would be the best army in the game. The opponent does get armor saves, and you would roll S4 on the chart against the target's Toughness to see if it wounds.

Fleet and Jump units. Reading this brought up a big question. Jump units can re roll their die when charging into assault. Fleet lets you re roll one or both die when charging correct? If true then if a unit is Jump and Fleet do I get two re rolls or just one?

Thanks!

Just one; you can never re-roll a die more than once.

Hull points are cool, anyone who's played in a few tournaments in 5th knows how frustrating Immortal Rhinos were.

I know no such thing, because Rhinos were never immortal. They've always died like anything else with AV13 or less.

[Forrestfire]

I'm going to be playing my first game of 6th edition sometime this week

I was wondering if I could get some critique on this list?

Spoiler

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{table]Type|Unit|Details|Points
HQ|Belial, Master of the Deathwing|Terminator armor, twin lightning claws|130

HQ|Allied Space Marine Librarian|Terminator armor, psychic hood, force staff, epistolary|175

Troops|Deathwing Terminator Squad|Terminator Sergeant - Power sword, storm bolter|235
||4 Terminators - Storm bolters, power fists, 1 w/ cyclone missile launcher
Troops|Deathwing Terminator Squad|Terminator Sergeant - Twin lightning claws|290
||2 Terminators - Thunder hammers, storm shields, 1 w/ Cyclone missile launcher
||1 Terminator Apothecary - Thunder hammer, storm shield, narthecium/reductor
||1 Terminator Standard Bearer - Thunder hammer, storm shield, Deathwing company banner

Troops|Deathwing Terminator Squad|Terminator Sergeant - Thunder hammer, storm shield|235
||4 Terminators - Thunder hammers, storm shields, 1 w/ cyclone missile launcher

Troops|Deathwing Terminator Squad|Terminator Sergeant - Thunder hammer, storm shield|235
||4 Terminators - Thunder hammers, storm shields, 1 w/ cyclone missile launcher

Troops|Allied Space Marine Scout Squad|Sergeant Telion - Scout armor, camo cloak, stalker pattern boltgun, frag and krak grenades, bolt pistol|195
||7 Scouts - Scout armor, camo cloaks, sniper rifles, bolt pistols, frag and krak grenades, 1 w/ Heavy bolter (hellfire rounds)
Total:|1500[/table]

[bluntpencil]

I'm going to be playing my first game of 6th edition sometime this week

I was wondering if I could get some critique on this list?

Spoiler

Show

{table]Type|Unit|Details|Points
HQ|Belial, Master of the Deathwing|Terminator armor, twin lightning claws|130

HQ|Allied Space Marine Librarian|Terminator armor, psychic hood, force staff, epistolary|175

Troops|Deathwing Terminator Squad|Terminator Sergeant - Power sword, storm bolter|235
||4 Terminators - Storm bolters, power fists, 1 w/ cyclone missile launcher
Troops|Deathwing Terminator Squad|Terminator Sergeant - Twin lightning claws|290
||2 Terminators - Thunder hammers, storm shields, 1 w/ Cyclone missile launcher
||1 Terminator Apothecary - Thunder hammer, storm shield, narthecium/reductor
||1 Terminator Standard Bearer - Thunder hammer, storm shield, Deathwing company banner

Troops|Deathwing Terminator Squad|Terminator Sergeant - Thunder hammer, storm shield|235
||4 Terminators - Thunder hammers, storm shields, 1 w/ cyclone missile launcher

Troops|Deathwing Terminator Squad|Terminator Sergeant - Thunder hammer, storm shield|235
||4 Terminators - Thunder hammers, storm shields, 1 w/ cyclone missile launcher

Troops|Allied Space Marine Scout Squad|Sergeant Telion - Scout armor, camo cloak, stalker pattern boltgun, frag and krak grenades, bolt pistol|195
||7 Scouts - Scout armor, camo cloaks, sniper rifles, bolt pistols, frag and krak grenades, 1 w/ Heavy bolter (hellfire rounds)
Total:|1500[/table]

Looks reasonable. I'd probably take Null Field and Gate of Infinity for the Librarian's powers.

An option could be to try save points in some places, and take some flyer defence in the form of an Aegis line. Some teleport homers might be nice somewhere, but looks like they're hard to slot in.

EDIT:

Just wondering, for my own interest, really: Would many people be opposed to using a Deathwing list to represent another Chapter's First Company? Basically, it's counts as, but even then, you're still using Terminator miniatures.

[Forrestfire]

I'm pretty sure my opponent doesn't have any fliers, so I felt like I could skimp on the flier defense front. Teleport homers might be nice, but I don't know where I'd add it, since the scouts can't take one.

[bluntpencil]

I'm pretty sure my opponent doesn't have any fliers, so I felt like I could skimp on the flier defense front. Teleport homers might be nice, but I don't know where I'd add it, since the scouts can't take one.

If you remove Telion in favour of a regular Sergeant you can take one. Hard call, really.

[Forrestfire]

That is definitely a hard call. I think telion might be just better in this case, though, since the scouts are objective-sitters.

[Borgh]

Just wondering, for my own interest, really: Would many people be opposed to using a Deathwing list to represent another Chapter's First Company? Basically, it's counts as, but even then, you're still using Terminator miniatures.

Depends really. If the transformation is carefully done with adequate reasoning why your army deserves the special rules that come with being the Deathwing? sure, go ahead.
If you pull out a bunch of barely-undercoated AoBR models and go "by the way, they are scoring" then you can go stuff those models. And I'm not talking about back into their case here.

[HalfTangible]

Depends really. If the transformation is carefully done with adequate reasoning why your army deserves the special rules that come with being the Deathwing? sure, go ahead.
If you pull out a bunch of barely-undercoated AoBR models and go "by the way, they are scoring" then you can go stuff those models. And I'm not talking about back into their case here.

Er, that's kinda harsh :/

[SynissterSyster]

@Renegade

Hmmmm http://lookatlanta.files.wordpress.c...p_tolerate.png



Thank you for everything.

[bluntpencil]

Depends really. If the transformation is carefully done with adequate reasoning why your army deserves the special rules that come with being the Deathwing? sure, go ahead.
If you pull out a bunch of barely-undercoated AoBR models and go "by the way, they are scoring" then you can go stuff those models. And I'm not talking about back into their case here.

Well, I think any Space Marine Chapter that might field solely Terminators in a given engagement could count. The special rules involve teleporting early and fearlessness, which anyone really could have.

Edit:

To be honest, I'd take much more issue with someone allying Space Marines with Necrons.

[Forrestfire]

Depends really. If the transformation is carefully done with adequate reasoning why your army deserves the special rules that come with being the Deathwing? sure, go ahead.
If you pull out a bunch of barely-undercoated AoBR models and go "by the way, they are scoring" then you can go stuff those models. And I'm not talking about back into their case here.

Don't the rules say that it doesn't matter how the models are painted, as long as they're the right models?