Warhammer 40K Tabletop XVI: "Terminator? I hardly know 'er!"

[Cheesegear]

Can a Dreadnought being carrying by a Stormraven (in this case a Venerable one) still fire?

No. More words.

[Maugan Ra]

No, Kell is going to be the one getting shot. You seem to misunderstand how cover works, though; the entire model doesn't have to be out of sight to get a cover save. If it did, it would defeat the purpose of cover since you can't shoot targets you can't see at all.

You can at least give Tactical Genius to one of the platoons. Even if they don't outflank, being able to scout a blob up has its uses. Not having a Commissar means they're going to fold in assault very, very quickly, though.

Yeah, but Kell is apparently insecure about his job, and thus does not allow other bodyguards in a unit with him. So if Creed is taking the hits, they transfer straight onto Kell, until Kell falls over and the following hits go right back onto Creed. Arranging the unit so that Creed isn't closest to the enemy tends to reduce his line of sight.

And true. If anything in the army gets tactical genius, it'd be one of the platoons. Not for advancing forwards necessarily, but being able to shuffle my heavy weapons about to clear fire lanes if I deployed first is often a fun tactic to use.

I am very aware that my troops don't stand up to assault very well, even with a Commissar. This is entirely acceptable to me. So the enemy overkills one squad, the others close in and spray infinite las-gun fire into them. Even more with snapshots. Combined squads are used only when the enemy is playing for kill points or something (which is considerably rarer nowadays)

[Renegade Paladin]

Yeah, but Kell is apparently insecure about his job, and thus does not allow other bodyguards in a unit with him.

Yes he does. Nork Deddog doesn't let you take other bodyguards; Kell is fine.

[Maugan Ra]

Hmm? *checks codex*

Well damn. I've been working on the wrong basis for that for quite a while now...

[shadowwalker64]

Figured I might as well put up the Guard lists I tend to use for general review. The 210th Cadian stands at somewhere around 6,500pts when all fielded together, though that is naturally quite a rare thing nowadays.

(It does happen occasionally, though, and is rather horrific when it does. A pure Guard force is obscene at apocolypse levels, especially when you have enough models to field several distinct formations.)

Anyway, first up, the Infantry Horde list. The mechanized list shall be along later, once I've reviewed all the different tanks I actually have.

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HQ

Company Command Squad (320pts)
- Ursarker E. Creed and Jarren Kell
- Master of Ordnance and Officer of the Fleet
- Veteran with Vox-caster, two with las guns
- All have Carapace armour

Company Command squad (85pts)
- Vox caster, Carapace armour

Elites

2 Quad guns, manned by six guardsmen (100pts)

2 Quad guns, manned by six guardsmen (100pts)

2 Quad guns, manned by six guardsmen (100pts)

Troops

Platoon Command squad Alpha (50pts)
- Vox caster, three grenade launchers

4 x Infantry Squads (240pts)
- Each has a Vox caster and flamethrower

2 x Heavy Weapons squad (180pts)
- Three missile launchers each

3 x Heavy Weapons squads (315pts
- Three Lascannons each

Platoon Command squad Beta (45pts)
- Vox caster and two grenade launchers

4 x Infantry squad (240pts)
- Each has a Vox caster and flamethrower

3 x Heavy Weapon squads (225pts)
- Six Autocannons, three heavy bolters

Total = 2,000pts exactly

Tactics: In case it wasn't obvious, this list basically revolves around massed firepower and lots of orders. The Quad Guns come from Imperial Armour Apocoplypse 2, and are specifically noted as being elites choices in smaller lists. Each of them throws out four S5 templates a turn at AP5, and I have six of them. The heavy weapons squads can all be given orders to make them twin-linked when shooting at vehicles or monstrous creatures, and as they're troops choices, they work wonderfully for sitting on objectives.

The infantry squads are, essentially, meat shields. They tend to head straight for the enemy deployment zone or contested objectives, with the platoon commanders tagging along to enhance their rate of fire or get them running faster. Ten squads of objective-capturing troops are not a target that can be freely ignored, especially when they pump out so many shots a turn. The Legionnairre who scoffs at a las gun, after all, has never charged across an open field at a hundred of them. The flamethrowers are also useful for simply sticking hits on the enemy.

By Infantry Horde, I hope you mean blob-guard, since IG use combined squads to form their hordes. Comments are therefore based on the list as pure blob-guard.

1) The main thing that strikes me in this list is the fact that you have little which can deal with AV13, which is quite common what with the prominence of Autolas preds and Necron quantum shielding. Apart from the master of ordanace, lascannons and missile launchers, you have nothing to deal with them reliably: at range or in CC. Putting more efficient forms of AV on the field will help solve this problem (replacing the lascannon HWT w/ 3 vendettas, for example), as will giving your infantry squads some meltabombs.

2) Your blobs... well, they aren't proper blobs. You say you're running horde guard, but you're missing a lot of things that makes a successful horde, such as morale immunity and actual CC capability. Adding a commissar to both blobs will help greatly in this, providing stubborn for everything in those infantry blobs. In addition, putting power weapons (axes, to be precise) on all of the sarges and commissars will help with CC, as well as giving melta bombs to the sarges as well. The latter will help make sure that you cannot be tied up by walkers indefinitely, and that you can have some way of taking out vehicles in midfield which may be of value.

3) The list has a lot of either useless or otherwise very inefficient units. Your quad guns, not only being FW (which may be a problem in some cases), are doing a job that guard are already good at. The same can be said for the HB HWT. I would recommend taking these two out in favour of LRBT. Not only will they put some beef into your relatively 'squishy' army, but they also provide decent ranged AT fire when upgraded with hull-lascannon, and they can fill an Anti-infantry role if need be. Creed and Kell seem very out of place here, especially with nothing being tactical genius'd. I would take both out if you aren't going to be outflanking. These points can be spent upgrading your infantry blobs. Carapace armour and the second CCS can be removed, especially the former. Giving the CCS's Autocannons and Plasma guns with the spare points can bolster your ranged firepower. If you choose to go vendettas, you can also outfit your PCS's with flamers/meltaguns to suit your needs, though I'm not familiar with how much you would lose out if you didn't have them on the field giving out orders (FRFSRF seems decent enough, but eh). Chimeras are decent if vendettas aren't used, and can give a hybrid feel to the army without diverging from the concept too much.

Hope that helps :)

[Renegade Paladin]

Hmm? *checks codex*

Well damn. I've been working on the wrong basis for that for quite a while now...

In addition, Nork doesn't say a thing about Kell, so you can have all kinds of very expensive bodyguarding if you want.

[Maugan Ra]

Shadow - Thanks for the feedback. Working through it point by point...

Firstly, I have nine Lascannons and six missile launchers, all of which can usually be twin-linked. Hell, against AV13 and with the hull points addition in 6th edition, the six Autocannons can also chip in quite successfully. For a 2,000pts list, that seems entirely sufficient. I've certainly never run into a problem of not having enough anti-tank in the army before...

Secondly, nope, I don't mean blob guard. The individual infantry squads are, 90% of the time, running around as separate units. Combined squads are for when I'm playing kill points (Or Purge the Alien, as it's called now). I have little CC capability in those units because, frankly, they're not designed for close combat. Their job is to run for objectives (having enough forces to make a viable play for every objective on the field is very useful) and to pour on rapid-fire volleys against just about anything they could possibly hurt.

Putting them in blobs just means I have a single target for the enemy to concentrate his fire and CC against, as well as limiting my own flexibility. Rallying is now always possible provided I have at least 25% of a unit left, and for those occasions when I only have one or two, the Get Back in the Fight order allows me to rally them as well.

I've never run into problems with the Quad Guns being disallowed before, and frankly, that many S5 templates a turn is worth the investment, I find. They have to stop firing every third turn, but it's still worth it.

I've never understood the focus on Creed's Tactical Genius rule. It's nice, sure, but I've always viewed a single scouting unit as basically being a bonus. The real value is that he can contribute twice as many orders as any other officer, at twice the range. When those orders allow you to do things like twin-link your weapons, get a +2 cover save, auto-rally a unit or force the enemy to re-roll his cover saves, Creed becomes easily worth his 90pts. And if I absolutely need a combat punch, For the Glory of Cadia allows him to give fearless and furious charge to a unit.

[Renegade Paladin]

To a small unit. The reason for blobbing is order efficiency; you simply will not have enough orders if you have that many individual squads running around. Also, Tactical Genius permits you to do crazy stuff like put Demolishers or Bane Wolves (or Baneblades or Warhound Titans, or...) on the enemy flank.

[Cheesegear]

I've never understood the focus on Creed's Tactical Genius rule. It's nice, sure, but I've always viewed a single scouting unit as basically being a bonus. The real value is that he can contribute twice as many orders as any other officer, at twice the range.

Wrong. The real value is Tactical Genius. Look at Creed's points cost. Look at how much it costs to get a whole 'nother Command Squad...With upgrades. You get the same amount of Orders, you get about 50% more range if you spread your Officers out. And, before you were separating your Infantry Squads to give your opponent more targets, etc.

Since you have both HQ slots filled anyway, Creed can be slotted out (and the Master of Ordnance is rarely effective), you can have nearly a whole 'nother Infantry Platoon - which has the Command Squad. Or maybe some Hellhounds, or a couple of Sentinels.

Creed is only - only - worth his points when he uses Tactical Genius correctly.

[Squark]

Also, unless your meta is voluntarily changing the rules, you need 2 more troop choices at 2000 points (because you have a second force organization chart at 2000 points, which means 2 HQs and 4 Troop choices mandatory selections)

Also... At 2000 points, 10 guardsmen without a transport are going to poof into non-existance very quickly, especially since you plan to have them go for objectives (And thus, they are that much less likely to have a cover save). You need to blob things up in order for them to survive . Also, you're sacrificing a lot of effectiveness for that flexibility, as you only have so many orders to give to them (And guardsmen sans orders are... kind of pathetic). Blobbing them makes First Rank, Second Rank that much stronger (40-60 lasgun shots is enough to actually threaten a tactical squad, and if you go up to 30 in a blob, well, so much the better), and means you don't need to waste orders on Get Back In the Fight as often.

[HalfTangible]

Also, unless your meta is voluntarily changing the rules, you need 2 more troop choices at 2000 points (because you have a second force organization chart at 2000 points, which means 2 HQs and 4 Troop choices mandatory selections)

Also... At 2000 points, 10 guardsmen without a transport are going to poof into non-existance very quickly, especially since you plan to have them go for objectives (And thus, they are that much less likely to have a cover save). You need to blob things up in order for them to survive . Also, you're sacrificing a lot of effectiveness for that flexibility, as you only have so many orders to give to them (And guardsmen sans orders are... kind of pathetic). Blobbing them makes First Rank, Second Rank that much stronger (40-60 lasgun shots is enough to actually threaten a tactical squad, and if you go up to 30 in a blob, well, so much the better), and means you don't need to waste orders on Get Back In the Fight as often.

Whoa whoa whoa. The second force org chart is compulsory?

[DaedalusMkV]

Whoa whoa whoa. The second force org chart is compulsory?

It is not. If you make any use of the second FOC you need to meet the minimum requirements for it, but if you choose not to use it at all you're totally okay.

[Renegade Paladin]

Small Apocalypse game today. List:

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Apocalypse List

3000 points

Company Command Squad - 200
-Medi-pack, carapace armor
-Three plasma guns
-Chimera dedicated transport

Leman Russ Vanquisher - 180
-Company command tank (IA1)
-Lascannon

Storm Trooper Squad - 115
-Two plasma guns

Storm Trooper Squad - 105
-Two meltaguns

Armored Fist Platoon - 25
-Veteran Squad - 155
--Three meltaguns
--Chimera dedicated transport
-Veteran Squad - 155
--Three meltaguns
--Chimera dedicated transport
-Veteran Squad - 155
--2 flamers
--Heavy flamer
--Chimera dedicated transport
---2 heavy flamers

Veteran Squad - 200
-Gunnery Sergeant Harker
-Two flamers, meltagun
-Chimera dedicated transport
--Heavy flamer

Veteran Squad - 160
-Sergeant Bastonne
-Three meltaguns

Valkyrie - 130
-Multiple rocket pods

Leman Russ battle tank - 170
-Heavy bolter sponsons

Leman Russ Demolisher - 195
-Multimelta sponsons

Emperor's Wrath Artillery Battery - 25
-Basilisk - 125
-Basilisk - 125
-Basilisk - 125

Manticore - 160

Baneblade - 500

It's five points over, but at 3k who really cares? Especially since this is with the kid who hosed me playing 2500 against 1750. >_>

[Squark]

And if he gives you flack about it, just tell him to put a melta bomb on something.


So, now that I'm back at school, Space Wolves vs. Necrons teaching list, take 2!

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Necrons

HQ: Necron Overlord -145 pts
-Warscythe, Phase Shifter

Troops: 5 Necron Immortals with Gauss Blasters -85 pts
5 Necron Immortals with Guass Blasters-85 pts

Fast Attack: 3 Necron Tomb Blades -90 pts
-Particle Beamers

Total: 405 pts

Space Wolves

HQ: Wolf Guard Battle Leader -140 pts
-Wolf Claw, Storm Shield, Runic Armor

Troops: 5 Grey Hunters -85 pts
-Plasmagun
5 Grey Hunters -85 pts
-Plasmagun

Heavy Support: 4 Long Fangs -90 pts
-3 Missile Launchers

Total: 400 points

On the one hand, I'd kind of like to fit in another special unit into each army. On the other hand, I'm not sure quite what that would be for each army, given my collection is light on elite troops. Hmm... Perhaps I could add Wolf Guard and Crypteks/Lords to the units?

[Renegade Paladin]

I roundly stomped him. Vanquisher command tank > Land Raider. His own deployment zone was completely empty of his units by the end of turn 5, and I held four objectives to one.

[The_Final_Stand]

Could I get some advice?

I got a box of Immortals/Deathmarks for my birthday the other week, and I'm not sure what to assemble them as.

Bearing in mind I already have 40 Warriors, and the only Elites I have are 5 Pariahs turned Lychguard (and 5 Flayed Ones, but I never use those), I'm tempted to make a bunch of Deathmarks and use them as Big Scary Thing killers (where BST refers either to Monstrous Creatures (high toughness) or anything that deals a disproportionate amount of hurt in assault). I just felt I'd get a second opinion.

[Squark]

Could I get some advice?

I got a box of Immortals/Deathmarks for my birthday the other week, and I'm not sure what to assemble them as.

Bearing in mind I already have 40 Warriors, and the only Elites I have are 5 Pariahs turned Lychguard (and 5 Flayed Ones, but I never use those), I'm tempted to make a bunch of Deathmarks and use them as Big Scary Thing killers (where BST refers either to Monstrous Creatures (high toughness) or anything that deals a disproportionate amount of hurt in assault). I just felt I'd get a second opinion.

Deathmarks are very, very needy in regards to elite slots. If you take one squad, you really want three. Also, Monstrous Creatures aren't an enormous threat at the moment, and most "Big Scary Things" have invulnerable saves that will take the bite out of a lot of your firepower. Personally, I'd go with Immortals, for more versatility in the troop section. Probably Tesla, since you've got a fair ammount of Gauss already.

[Voidhawk]

Seeing as you seem to have a reasonable number of troops already, I'd go with the Deathmarks. Contrary to Squark's opinion, I've found with experimentation that you only need a small number to be effective, while Immortals like being in larger squads so they can get the full benefit of Reanimation.

The way I've been playing them is the standard one-shot elite infantry counter. I attach a Harbinger of Despair with Veil of Darkness to them, and park them at the back of my deployment zone, generally hiding behind a tank.
Then I select in my mind an enemy unit that I really want to die (thunder-wolves, nob-bikers, hive-tyrants, terminators etc), and when they appear (or get close to a reliable anti-tank unit if they're in a transport) I jump forward and hose them down. Very little can walk unscathed through a weapon that wounds on a 2+ with AP 1 and no cover allowed.

They almost never survive the retaliatory fire, but the amount of damage they do in their short life span is considerable to say the least. Plus, the enemies gut reaction is often to charge into cc with them, generating another free d3 hits with the harbinger, and often finishing the unit off before they reach them.

[thedavo]

So, played my first games of 6th ed over the weekend.

1st game:

1500 points vs Eldar - the seize the central objective mission.

my list:

HQ – warboss – big choppa, twin linked shoota, eavy armour, attack squig, cybork body, bosspole
HQ – big mek – KFF eavy armour
Troops – 20 Shoota boyz, 2 big shootas, nob w/fist, eavy armour, and bosspole
Troops – 20 Shoota boyz, 2 big shootas, nob w/fist, eavy armour, and bosspole
Troops – 20 Slugga boyz, 2 big shootas, nob w/fist, eavy armour, and bosspole
Elites – 12 Lootas (maybe split into 2 units of 6?)
Elites – 10 Tankbustas + 3 Bommsquigs
Fast Attack - Dakkajet, 3 twin linked supa shootas, fighta ace, red paint job
Heavy support – 3 zooka kans
Heavy support – 3 zooka kans

Eldar:

Farseer
Guardian squad w/warlock and scatter laser
10 avengers w/exarch, bladestorm, and wave serpent x2
Some Harlequins and Shadowseer
10 Scorpions w/exarch
6 Fire Dragons w/exarch
Falcon

Went well - won 3-1 due to getting the artifact, first blood (on the Scorpions) and killing the Farseer, he got my Warboss. Tankbustas did nothing, the Dakkajet didn't show until turn 4 but then blasted a unit of Avengers to smithereens (Waaaagh!) Getting used to the taking dead models from the front took a while, but game seemed to flow fairly smoothly. One of the Kan mobs managed to take down most of the Guardians and the Farseer before getting Haywired to death.

Second game was vs Blood Angels, 1000pts

HQ – warboss – eavy armour, big choppa, attack squig, cybork body, bosspole, twin linked shoota
Troops – 20 Shoota boyz, 2 big shootas, nob w/fist, eavy armour, and bosspole
Troops – 20 Shoota boyz, 2 big shootas, nob w/fist, eavy armour, and bosspole
Elites – 11 Lootas
Fast Attack - Dakkajet, 3 twin linked supa shootas, fighta ace, red paint job
HQ – big mek – KFF eavy armour
Heavy support – 3 zooka kans

Blood Angels:

Chaplain w/ Death Company in a Rhino
10 Assault Marines
5 scouts w/ Heavy Bolter
10 man Tactical Squad w/Flamer and Missile Launcher
3 Bikes w/ meltagun and plasma gun

5 objectives scattered around the battlefield, won 6-4 I think. Rhino got blown up by the Lootas on turn 1, and then pummelled the Death Company with shooting. Dakkajet showed up on turn 2 and was a general nuisance.

Overall impressions were good, had a lot of fun, and should be playing either my mate's Dark Eldar or Nids on Thursday depending on what he brings.

[The_Jackal]

Very little can walk unscathed through a weapon that wounds on a 2+ with AP 1 and no cover allowed.

Too bad Deathmarks don't have AP1. They have AP -.

[Borgh]

Too bad Deathmarks don't have AP1. They have AP -.

Yes, however the harbinger has this neat staff that does.
And the guns are sniper rifles so they still get rending.

[Hawkfrost000]

So, played my first games of 6th ed over the weekend.

Overall impressions were good, had a lot of fun, and should be playing either my mate's Dark Eldar or Nids on Thursday depending on what he brings.

My friend has discovered the most brutal Ork unit ever.

10 Burna Boys 150
Looted Wagon w Skorcha and Red Paint Job 55

11 flame templates anyone?

DM

[thedavo]

15 Burna Boyz in a Battlewagon?

[Borgh]

Yes, they are incredibly nasty. I've met them before.

However, once you realize they only have 7" range and are rather flimsy they die once you point some medium range, medium power guns at them.

[CN the Logos]

So, I recently played a game with a guy who told me that Necron Warscythes had been errataed to be Unwieldy, thus reducing my Overlord's effective initiative to one and making her far less effective against his Warboss than she would have been otherwise. However, upon looking up the rules tonight and trying to find that update, I can't. Indeed, my google-fu mostly turns up references to how great it is that Warscythes aren't Unwieldy. I'm not seeing anything about it in the Necron FAQ either. Is there something I'm missing, or was he mistaken?

Also, I have three Destroyers with no weapons glued on yet. One of them is going to become a Destroyer Lord, but I'm torn between modeling the other two as Heavies or regular Destroyers. Any thoughts? If it makes a difference, I've got three regular Destroyers already.

Thanks in advance.

[Cheesegear]

Is there something I'm missing, or was he mistaken?

He was mistaken or cheating. Originally there was confusion, "If it looks like an axe, then it's an axe." But, it is a unique Necron weapon, and is not an axe.

Per the Necron Errata (GW Website);
S+2, AP1, Melee, Armourbane, Two-Handed.

It is not Unwieldy.

I've also seen a tendency for people to confuse Specialist Weapon, Two-Handed and Unwieldy between each other at different times (usually when it suits the player ).

[CN the Logos]

He was mistaken or cheating. Originally there was confusion, "If it looks like an axe, then it's an axe." But, it is a unique Necron weapon, and is not an axe.

Per the Necron Errata (GW Website);
S+2, AP1, Melee, Armourbane, Two-Handed.

It is not Unwieldy.

I've also seen a tendency for people to confuse Specialist Weapon, Two-Handed and Unwieldy between each other at different times (usually when it suits the player ).

Ah, thank you. Having talked to this guy a few times, he doesn't seem like the sort to cheat in a friendly game, so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. That's going to help my Overlord tremendously next time though. (Insert something unintelligible and probably obscene about challenges here.)

[lord_khaine]

Ah, thank you. Having talked to this guy a few times, he doesn't seem like the sort to cheat in a friendly game, so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. That's going to help my Overlord tremendously next time though. (Insert something unintelligible and probably obscene about challenges here.)

Next time i recomend inserting Mindshackle Scarabs instead, much more fun.

"Stop hitting yourself with your power klaw, stop hitting yourself with your power klaw"

[Timberwolf]

That's the reason why if I see any Necron Overlords, Trazyn, Royal Courts and anyone else with those things they are shot to death in a display of gunshippy power, right after any Croissant of Despairs are killed. I really don't like those things and a Multimelta to the face means I never have to deal with them.

[Maugan Ra]

I have a sorting system for working out who to shoot, and in what order. It tends to vary depending on the army, though. For Blood Angels, as an example, the more gold, skulls and/or wings you had, the faster you had to die. Especially if running around on your own.

Necrons are a bit harder. They all look like skeletons with rayguns.