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2012-08-22, 04:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
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2012-08-22, 04:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
I believe the common consensus is that they help crowd control, and any rider effects you may have on your attacks(which I'm sure will be released at some point). I agree with you though, and I've been tentatively running it as regular damage on the first hit and half damage on the second. Feats should be a solid benefit, not just a different way of doing the same thing.
Last edited by Loki_42; 2012-08-22 at 04:20 PM.
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2012-08-22, 04:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
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2012-08-22, 04:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
It's useful when you're outnumbered, you have multiple enemies within reach, and all of the enemies have a low enough health that the small amount of damage dealt will be enough to drop them (otherwise, you're better off dropping a single target instead of reducing two targets to half HP, barring an optional "Wounded" module). Sneak Attack can only trigger once/round, and I'm guessing most bonus damage sources will have similar caps.
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2012-08-22, 04:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
It's not that the spell list changes, it's that the function of certain spells change. It'd be a simple addendum at the end of the spell that reads something like "For [x] sorcerer change [parameter] to [y]".
Unlike the Thieves Cant thing, which is a bit harder to refluff, I really don't see how I can't do that with Bloodlines.
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2012-08-22, 04:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
It's also useful in that it gives you two chances to hit. If hitting is what's important, more than the damage done per turn (applying an effect, etc.), then the additional likelihood of hitting is useful.
I'm personally okay with it being semi-situational. I like mechanics where things aren't just overall better, but often better situationally or better based on what the opponent does or is planning.
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2012-08-22, 05:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
Ok that could be weird, and could complicate balance somewhat.
I'm looking at this from a DM's perspective. If I want to do a non-"standard" D&D setting, the inclusion of Sorcerers is a more work than any other class, for no good reason. I'm better off axing the entire class from all my games and replacing it wholesale with something better in terms that doesn't require me to bend over backwards to shoehorn something in. As for a player, I could refluff it, if I considered the system as a legitimate way to expand a class.
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2012-08-22, 05:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
This has been discussed before.
While it is true Two-Weapon Fighting and Rapid Shot don't increase your damage output, that are stiff useful feats for three reasons
1) You can attack multiple opponents potentially letting you finish off more than one foe in a round.
2) If you have any non-damaging secondary effects of an attack, you will be able to apply said effect twice(can't think of any right now, but some will exist I am sure)
3) It increases the chance you will cause damage to the foe at the cost of giving you a chance to only do half damage. When rolling two attacks, if one attack misses, the other attack might still hit, thus you are more likely to do some damage on your turn.
The feats are not for everyone, but they do have usefulness."Sometimes, we’re heroes. Sometimes, we shoot other people right in the face for money."
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2012-08-22, 05:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
Only if you tried to keep sorcerers and wizards on the same spell list. You build a different spell list.
Even then, not really. So long as the setting has magic and you want to keep the spontaneousness of the class intact all that would need saying is: Your natural magic affects you in weird ways and no one knows why (if you want the mystery as lesser_minion seems to), or for any other reason that would make sense in your setting: being born the sixth son of a sixth son, being a descendant of the original cursed magi, having a spirit within you, or anything else that would take half a second to think up. Sure, it's an incredibly boring description but I have yet to see anything presented from the sorcerer class or any bloodline ability that could not be refluffed in such a way.
Odds are, if 5e gets me back into the game as a DM, I'm just outright banning the sorcerer in total, and just moving on.Last edited by Zeful; 2012-08-22 at 05:29 PM.
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2012-08-22, 05:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-08-22, 05:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
I don't see what's so restrictive about bloodlines. Just because bloodlines exist in the world doesn't mean they have to be at all common. It's not like none of the other classes put restrictions on your setting either. The Cleric, and by proxy all the other divine casters, require that there be gods in the world that grant powers to mortals that follow them. The Warlock similarly requires that there be powerful beings that grant boons and powers in exchange for...actually, what do they get in exchange for granting a warlock their powers? I guess I never really understood that.
They're also extremely easy to re-fluff. For example, instead of having "the blood of a dragon", you could say that they were corrupted by some artifact, which gave them magical powers. Or maybe becoming a sorcerer is something you learn, and the various powers you get are just more things that a sorcerer learns how to do as they progress. If you don't like dragons, you could swap out the fluff for, say, elementalist fluff. Instead of dragon scales, your skin hardens like rock. Instead of breathing fire, you shoot a jet of flame from your eyes. And so on.5e Homebrew: Death Knight (Class), Kensai (Monk Subclass)Excellent avatar by Elder Tsofu.
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2012-08-22, 05:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
That's fair. Don't care much either way on who has which spell list though.
Fine, I'll put it this way; unless WoTC is making game like Exalted or Shadowrun with an explicit setting packed into the game, players and DMs should not have to refluff anything. I shouldn't have to waste my time bothering with sorcerer bloodlines because the designers were too lazy to come up with something unique and general. Because every other edition, you could interpret the class literally almost any way you wanted and it would fit in the general fluff in the PhB. This sorcerer: I have to waste time rebuilding the fluff rather than building the character or the setting. Moreover, how the **** are your examples not shoehorning it in?
Odds are, if 5e gets me back into the game as a DM, I'm just outright banning the sorcerer in total, and just moving on.
But then, like I said. I more or less ignore fluff I don't like to begin with and have I higher tolerance for it. So to me, I doubt Bloodlines will ever actually bother me because I trust in my ability to refluff just about anything my players want to do so long as the mechanics work out.
And as to my examples, they're off the top of my head without working in any real structure litterally spitballing ways to refluff random crap. Give me a setting and I'll make something make more sense.
Or if you really don't feel like putting any effort in it at all. They learn it just because. That's seriously the only information we're given about them in 3.5 they just naturally learn it that way. For the record, that fluff still works for every single bloodline, admittedly mostly because it's **** reasoning to begin with, but that seems to be the fluff you're arguing for. So if it worked then, it should still work now.
Now by all means don't let you're players use the sorcerer. I won't tell you how to run your games, but I will defend my belief that the bloodline fluff is an easy thing to replace or ignore for the class.
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2012-08-22, 06:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
This post is more of a collective thought process of a group I play with which is different then the majority of the players on the board.
I normally DM, but when I play I am the most optimized player at the table, hands down. When I showed my friend my level 3 (4e) rogue, he looked like it was really optimized because I could be getting sneak attack every single round which with all the splat books is now (almost) a given.
The group picks classes, feats, and whatever else to fit their character concept if they have any or whatever sounds good. They don't go online, don't look at numbers, they don't compare classes, they don't do any of that sort of stuff.
I know they would be upset if the new version didn't have any sort of duel attacking.
Now I do agree that I would like more sort of benefit to take the feats in question, but I honestly don't have any good idea yet of what to suggest. Doubling the bonus damage is way to much, only doing 75% damage can get to..."mathy" for their goal, etc.
Also I have always used WotC fluff as a basis, but changed whatever I saw fit, I doubt I will change that now.
I still hold out hope that the fluff is still a "filler" and they will have radically different fluff for release as they don't need to play test the fluff.
Fluff on the sorc's dragonic bloodline? I don't like it being the only option, but I hold out hope that they will have enough options that will satisfy most people.
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2012-08-22, 06:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-08-22, 06:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
Not particularly. Clerics and Warlocks are part of the traditions that literally made D&D. Making a setting of any real depth will include those traditions anyway, as there will be religion and myth. It's not much more effort to include them. 5e sorcerers, most notably, aren't, and thus will either dictate setting elements to include them, or make you waste time rebuilding their fluff. This is bad design for a game that doesn't come with an explicit setting, 2e, 3.5 and 4e all had implicit settings, vauge guidelines that took quite a bit of effort to move outside of.
And those classes also suffer from what I'm talking about.
But then, like I said. I more or less ignore fluff I don't like to begin with and have I higher tolerance for it. So to me, I doubt Bloodlines will ever actually bother me because I trust in my ability to refluff just about anything my players want to do so long as the mechanics work out.Last edited by Zeful; 2012-08-22 at 06:27 PM.
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2012-08-22, 06:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
I disagree and find the bloodline concept a nice idea. Pathfinder was smart to offer many different kinds each with their own class features. Sorcerer started out as bland in 3.0 beginnings as just another way to do arcane magic. As the game developed Heritage feats were offered to offer crunch flavor. It wasn't much, only dragon and fey (which was catered for warlocks anyway), but it was something. 5E is a chance to start fresh, and giving Sorcerers crunch flavor from the beginning is fine design choice. Dragon is stereotypical but not bad wrong idea. It would be a bad idea if the final product is only dragon, so hopefully 5E will offer enough backgrounds for different magic ties. The basics will suffice for the 5E PHB - dragon, arcane, fey, celestial, devilish, demonic, and possibly genie. Obligatory splat books would offer more.
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2012-08-22, 06:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-08-22, 06:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
Ehhh, I've made plenty of campaigns without gods or demons.
and for me, the mechanics don't work out. I've been against this idea since Szantany wrote his Ultimate classes, roughly 10 years ago. Not just because of the inherent fluff, but because all of this stuff is focused on changing the character rather than the feel or playstyle of the class. Rather than giving me options that are essentially different playstyles (like Wizard Schools, only you know, better), I'm stuck with terribly designed and random buffs to crap I do not want. Pathfinder's Arcane bloodline, as lazy and terrible as it is is the least offensive implementation of the idea and it still fails to make the choice feel meaningful and different rather than some crap tacked on as an afterthough and given terrible as hell justification. Which, if you pan back a couple of pages, you'll note I've already said.
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2012-08-22, 07:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
No one has managed it in ten years. Even legitimately good homebrewers have yet to make bloodlines not be anything other than changing the character rather than the class. Excuse me if I choose to interpret this as evidence that it's a bad idea from the outset rather than wait for the proverbial lightning to strike.
My beef is with the universal crap implementation. Not the idea.
Pathfinder was smart to offer many different kinds each with their own class features.
Sorcerer started out as bland in 3.0 beginnings as just another way to do arcane magic.
As the game developed Heritage feats were offered to offer crunch flavor. It wasn't much, only dragon and fey (which was catered for warlocks anyway), but it was something.
5E is a chance to start fresh
giving Sorcerers crunch flavor from the beginning is fine design choice.
Dragon is stereotypical but not bad wrong idea. It would be a bad idea if the final product is only dragon, so hopefully 5E will offer enough backgrounds for different magic ties. The basics will suffice for the 5E PHB - dragon, arcane, fey, celestial, devilish, demonic, and possibly genie. Obligatory splat books would offer more.
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2012-08-22, 07:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
Which would be fine if two weapon fighting were an option anyone could use at any time, but feats are supposed to make your character stronger. If TWF and rapid shot require you to permanently invest limited resources before you can use them, they should be better than their free alternatives, not just different.
Last edited by Lanaya; 2012-08-22 at 07:37 PM.
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2012-08-22, 08:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
Last edited by JoeMac307; 2012-08-22 at 08:04 PM.
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2012-08-22, 08:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-08-22, 09:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
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2012-08-22, 09:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
You're complaining about something that is silly and impossible. For the record, D&D has a setting built in, and it always had. D&D assumes you are in a world if magic and heroes, with dwarves and elves, where people go into dungeons and fight dragons for money. Just because they paint their setting in broad strokes(and further define it in specific campaign settings) doesn't mean a setting isn't there.
The sorcerer is a class that gains their power through inborn abilities. No one seemed to have a problem with that when the sorcerer originally came around. A draconic heritage was always a common possibility for said power. In 5e, they are just making it so a sorcerer plays a little differently depending on your heritage. I really don't see whats wrong with that. If you don't like draconic sorcerers, don't allow that bloodline. There will be more(I'd be suprised if there are not at least 4 in the main book when it comes out).
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2012-08-22, 09:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-08-22, 09:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
Spending some time listening to the 3rd PA Podcast (http://media.wizards.com/podcasts/PAPVP_Next3.mp3)
Three things that stood out. Seerow rejoice, they have heard your plea for multi die powers, and have such things envisioned as "riposte" which will allow for attacking enemies who miss you for a cost of 3 cs dice. Whether there's more to it than just a basic attack they didn't say, I guess we'll have to wait and see. It also appears that as predicted, you will be allowed to spend multiple cs powers per round so long as you have dice. They explicitly said the fighter could spend multiple dice to protect against multiple attacks. Clearly this means they need to clarify the reaction rules. If someone is filling out the newest survey, be sure to include that on your feedback. Lastly, they stated that a 10th level fighter will have 4d12 cs dice available to them, so we can probably extrapolate the progression now. Still not sure that it shouldn't be replaced with more smaller dice, but we'll see.
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2012-08-22, 09:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
They're not. When you only get a handful of these over the course of 20 levels - while the casters are getting new, interchangeable spells every single level - Feats have to be way more useful than semi-situational. They have to be as powerful as several spells combined, or they scale up with you to become that powerful.
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2012-08-22, 09:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
Can anyone tell me when the playtest packet was first released? As in, the date the playtest begain?
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2012-08-22, 09:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting
What I want you to do is scroll up like 6 posts. I've gone over this, but since you seem to have skipped it: I don't like the bloodline concept period, because this draconic sorcerer, like every draconic sorcerer, is simply a bunch of random bonuses tied together with a vauge theme that I find dumb and limiting as hell. I've looked over this concept for nearly ten years, and every time it's a bunch of random pluses tied together with one of the following words: draconic, angelic, demonic, elemental, undead, arcane.
No one has ever done anything meaningful with the concept to change my mind about heritage's place in the game as a feat-tree.
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2012-08-22, 09:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D 5th Editon Discussion: 6th thread and counting