MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

[ReaderAt2046]

RE: Psionics always producing a purple effect.

Was going on a bit of an archive binge recently, and noticed this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0730.html). Note that in the last two panels, we have what appears to be a Soulknife producing a red effect instead of a purple one. Greatly increases the chances that MITD is using yellow psionics.

[Olinser]

You know, from the thought that the MiTD is a psionic and randomly manifesting psionic powers, possibly without really realizing it, I came across the following possibilities for most of his scenes in psionic powers:

Being in the darkness - permanent Shadow Body (8th level)

Stop Shout - could have been a variation of Ultrablast - The spell description specifically states, "You “grumble” psychically (which both psionic and nonpsionic creatures can detect), then release a horrid shriek from your subconscious that disrupts the brains of all enemies in the power’s area, dealing 13d6 points of damage to each enemy."

I have no explanation for why they didn't take damage, though.

Tower Busting - Oak Body (7th level spell). Specifically notes that you deal double damage when making a full attack against an object or structure with an unarmed strike. It would require a slight manipulation of the rules by Rich, but I believe this would significantly lower the base strength necessary to pull off the wall break.

Both could ALSO been a form of Energy Conversion (level 7). Both of his big 'damage' displays of power (shattering the ground and smashing Miko through the wall), have come almost immediately after being physically attacked by a fairly high-level character (Belkar and Miko, respectively). Since we didn't actually see him hit Miko or the ground, he could very well have fired the ray that the spell specifies.

Being a ray, it is ALSO possible by the rules for it to score a critical hit - further lowering the necessary damage to break the wall. Rich has shown he's willing to play critical hits and natural 20s/1s for plot purposes before - the MiTD statement afterwards could be interpreted as, "Awwwwww, why'd I have to roll a 20?"

O-Chul's Escape - complicated, but he could have used 3 psionic spells - Trace Teleport, Teleport Trigger and Divert Teleport (level 4, level 5 and level 7 spells). Trace Teleport at the start when V showed up so he would have a destination. The teleport trigger was unconsciously primed to O-Chul's actual danger of death (as opposed to the various tortures that really weren't serious about killing him) would have gone off, and he could have (by bending the rules a little) teleported himself 'in place' or into something solid so that it would fizzle, but Diverted O-Chul and V to their destination. Very complicated, assuming he is manifesting powers on impulse, but possible. Trace teleport could have been justified by him being really, really curious about where the hell V came from.

Or, he could simply have used Reality Revision (9th level). Specifically states, "This power can lift one creature per manifester level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and power resistance (if any) applies. "

Tsukiko's ritual - Moment of Prescience (7th level, grants a big bonus to one skill check, could have used that on the knowledge section), or possibly even just Psionic Divination (4th level, same as Divination).

All of his powers can also be handwaved with a single 9th level spell - Reality Revision. It is basically a Wish spell. It can duplicate any spell 8th level or lower (so could be done in all possibilities I have listed), or could simply carry out any effect on it's own. Somewhat backed up by the fact that the MiTD seems aware if he really, really wants something to happen, it usually happens.

[Crusher]

Ok, this is a little embarrassing because I've somehow just realized I can't figure out how to Search the forums, so I'm not entirely sure I haven't already covered this. But I really don't think I have so I'm going to take a stab at this.

So, I'm revisiting the Klurichir, a candidate I put up a while ago. The main problem then was that I could only find two versions, one that was strong and tough enough, and one that had teleport. Between them they were a good candidate, but neither really was individually. But all along I had this feeling that "I'd solved it!", which wasn't really quite justified by either version. I wrote it up late at night during a multi-hour candidate hunt and I kept having this feeling that I'd found another version originally but had somehow lost track of it and sleepiness was fuzzing my brain.

Anyway, making a long story even longer, I think I've found the original missing version that got me excited in the first place. I think I found a homebrew version, went hunting to verify the actual monster pre-dated issue #100, then somehow lost track of the homebrew version but found the other two versions. If I'm totally wrong on this and I've linked this version, then I apologize.

Anyway, here he is: http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Klurichir_(3.5e_Monster)

He's not CR25 (but weirdly underpowered) or CR17 (but weirdly overpowered), like I think the old ones were, he's CR19.

As a review, the Klurichir is a very old type of non-unique demon which, depending on the source, may or may not have pre-dated the Tanar'ii. They're non-unique but pretty rare because Balors and the like tend to hunt them down to try to finish them off. They're roughly Balor/Pit Fiend in power but perhaps a half-step down.

So, re-introducing *this* version of the Klurichir, here we go:

Circus Scene: They're weird looking http://kagehiisa.deviantart.com/art/...emon-137573744 so not a problem.

Escape Scene: This version has full Greater Teleport, but even better, it has *both* Limited Wish and Wish.

Tower Scene: STR 38. Its defenses seem pretty weak at first (295 HP, 22 AC, no DR), but there's an answer to that: Blood of Stone (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Blood_of_Stone_(3.5e_Feat)). When hit by a non-touch attack, you make a Fort Save equal to damage taken. If you make the save, you take half damage. But if you miss your save, or if your BAB is more than half the damage done, you simply subtract BAB from damage done. He's got a BAB of +19, giving him an effective DR19 that works on any non-touch attack. Which actually fits perfectly, as a Miko/Belkar regular attack would likely do less than 19 damage and be ignored, while if Miko had actually used Power Attack, it likely would have gotten through.

Pros
- It has Swallow Whole as an extraordinary ability so Xykon telling him to swallow Red Cloak is entirely reasonable.
- While it does have an aura that automatically inflicts Bestow Greater Curse on anything below CR10 that looks at it, the effect of the curse is up to the Klurichir, so if MitD didn't have anything in particular in mind, there likely wouldn't be an effect at all

Cons
- So, ok, yeah, this particular version is a homebrew that only dates back to 2011. However, the monster itself is quite a bit older and various versions have been around for years.

[thatSeniorGuy]

Crusher, just a FYI, your link to the D&D wiki is missing the closing bracket.

[KillItWithFire]

I'm excited to see this but your link leads me to a blank page.
Never mind I think it was problems on my end, got it working.
You try to explain the circus scene with it's appearance when form of madness is just about the most perfect explanation I've ever seen? Why would you do this?

Wow can I just say this one has a lot going for it. The two downsides I see are Huge and immunity to mind-affecting. I like form of madness as a circus explanation because it happens to everyone who sees him, but he has to exert effort in choosing the curse/effect that is bestowed upon them, this also helps explained the varied effects. Wish and limited wish together is always a good thing... perhaps the reason he can't see the gates is because he has a permanent lens of true-seeing on(conjecture)... Power word stun I think is a good explanation for the shout... Doesn't speak common... Has the spellcraft/knowledge to decipher the ritual... You mentioned the issue with the date but if the previous version was anything like this one it stands a fair chance I think. Do you think you could try and find an earlier version of this guy?

This is my new favorite entry.

EDIT: So I found this guy in the fiend folio(p. 49). Nearly every thing I had said earlier still applies. Except... He loses the wonderful form of madness ability as well as all means of teleporting anyone who is not himself. (Has perfect teleportation of himself and objects) My question is then when was your version made again? Was it made after SoD and the escape scene were written? Also I can't find anything in the FF version about mental immunity. I don't know, it doesn't look as rock solid as I originally thought, but you could make one heck of a case for it.

[Crusher]

Oops, you're right about the bracket. Fixed it.

Edit - Yeah, the exact mix of abilities has always kinda been an issue with these guys. There are at least 3 (and there might be a 4th hiding in Dungeon magazine issue 150 if anyone has it) versions all with slightly different combinations of abilities, and each of them hits remarkably close to the mark but each one also manages to just miss in its own way (one version isn't quite strong or tough enough, another one doesn't have the right Teleport, and this one is a 2 year old homebrew).

They're just so tantalizingly close I keep coming back to them.

Edit2 - I'm also just noticing now that the "Blood of Stone" ability is itself also a homebrew, dating back to 2010.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

My question is then when was your version made again? Was it made after SoD and the escape scene were written?

According to the link, it was created in 2011, well after all major scenes.

GW

[AgentPaper]

According to the link, it was created in 2011, well after all major scenes.

GW

It's also an outsider, which doesn't need to eat or sleep.

[rweird]

It's also an outsider, which doesn't need to eat or sleep.

Outsiders can, they just don't have too.

[KillItWithFire]

According to the link, it was created in 2011, well after all major scenes.

GW

Yeah I just looked back at the comic and escape looks like it was in '09. A shame because that form of madness thing was a really nice fit.

[Olinser]

You know, from the thought that the MiTD is a psionic and randomly manifesting psionic powers, possibly without really realizing it, I came across the following possibilities for most of his scenes in psionic powers:

Being in the darkness - permanent Shadow Body (8th level)

Stop Shout - could have been a variation of Ultrablast - The spell description specifically states, "You “grumble” psychically (which both psionic and nonpsionic creatures can detect), then release a horrid shriek from your subconscious that disrupts the brains of all enemies in the power’s area, dealing 13d6 points of damage to each enemy."

I have no explanation for why they didn't take damage, though.

Tower Busting - Oak Body (7th level spell). Specifically notes that you deal double damage when making a full attack against an object or structure with an unarmed strike. It would require a slight manipulation of the rules by Rich, but I believe this would significantly lower the base strength necessary to pull off the wall break.

Both could ALSO been a form of Energy Conversion (level 7). Both of his big 'damage' displays of power (shattering the ground and smashing Miko through the wall), have come almost immediately after being physically attacked by a fairly high-level character (Belkar and Miko, respectively). Since we didn't actually see him hit Miko or the ground, he could very well have fired the ray that the spell specifies.

Being a ray, it is ALSO possible by the rules for it to score a critical hit - further lowering the necessary damage to break the wall. Rich has shown he's willing to play critical hits and natural 20s/1s for plot purposes before - the MiTD statement afterwards could be interpreted as, "Awwwwww, why'd I have to roll a 20?"

O-Chul's Escape - complicated, but he could have used 3 psionic spells - Trace Teleport, Teleport Trigger and Divert Teleport (level 4, level 5 and level 7 spells). Trace Teleport at the start when V showed up so he would have a destination. The teleport trigger was unconsciously primed to O-Chul's actual danger of death (as opposed to the various tortures that really weren't serious about killing him) would have gone off, and he could have (by bending the rules a little) teleported himself 'in place' or into something solid so that it would fizzle, but Diverted O-Chul and V to their destination. Very complicated, assuming he is manifesting powers on impulse, but possible. Trace teleport could have been justified by him being really, really curious about where the hell V came from.

Or, he could simply have used Reality Revision (9th level). Specifically states, "This power can lift one creature per manifester level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and power resistance (if any) applies. "

Tsukiko's ritual - Moment of Prescience (7th level, grants a big bonus to one skill check, could have used that on the knowledge section), or possibly even just Psionic Divination (4th level, same as Divination).

All of his powers can also be handwaved with a single 9th level spell - Reality Revision. It is basically a Wish spell. It can duplicate any spell 8th level or lower (so could be done in all possibilities I have listed), or could simply carry out any effect on it's own. Somewhat backed up by the fact that the MiTD seems aware if he really, really wants something to happen, it usually happens.

No response? I worked hard on that :(

[RunicLGB]

No response? I worked hard on that :(

I'll respond that those all make a lot of sense, but that only raises the argument of how he gets all those powers (or at least Reality Revision).

Finding a monster that could do it would be wonderful, but the other implication is that he has a lot of levels as a psinoic class.

Psion: Int based and very conscious of their abilities. Bad fit.
Psychic Warrior: Good on the physical side, but no access to the highest power levels. Bad Fit.
Divine Mind: No access to highest level powers.
Lurk: Huh?
Ardent: Very divine or Philosophical bent. Givin Mitd's emotional state this might be justifiable, and wisdom base could be responsible for his random insight.
Wilder: Cha based and pulls powers from emotional surges. Nearly Full list of powers. Seems good to me.

Of course this all assumes that the Monster gets his powers from class features rather than monster traits. I think its been argued against in the past because Rich has named the game to be guessing the monster, and that the various scenes with him hint at that identity. If we explain all those scenes away as class features, then the list of monster he could be increases to literally everything. And that kinda ruins the game.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

permanent Shadow Body (8th level)

I haven't read the rules for this, but in general, it is unlikely that MitD is generating his own darkness. He is told to stay in the shadows (unnecessary, if he creates them around himself), he needs the umbrella in lighted environments, and he is told to "jump out of the darkness" not "stop creating the darkness" when the time of the big reveal comes.

Ultrablast - The spell description specifically states, "You “grumble” psychically (which both psionic and nonpsionic creatures can detect), then release a horrid shriek from your subconscious that disrupts the brains of all enemies in the power’s area, dealing 13d6 points of damage to each enemy."

The shout was clearly not subconscious or psychic. The description of brain disruption also doesn't quite match the scene. Not completely impossible, but if it was meant to be this spell, I feel Rich would've done the shout differently.

O-Chul's Escape - [...] he could have (by bending the rules a little) teleported himself 'in place' or into something solid so that it would fizzle, but Diverted O-Chul and V to their destination.

Way more farfetched than the current explanation "he was hit by V's dimension lock". In general, psionics has the exact same teleport spells wizards do, with "psionic" before it, and are equally likely to the wizard version.

And yes, Reality Revision is the psionic wish, and as such has been on our FP list of explanations for the escape for some time.

Grey Wolf

[AgentPaper]

I'm not sure how him being a psion of some sort is any different than the theory that he's, say, a sorcerer that's using normal spells without realizing it. It still falls into the "monster with class levels" category, at which point it may as well just be a level 21 human sorcerer casting stuff like shapechange, teleport, wish, etc.

MitD using psionic powers is already an accepted theory, as evidenced by the inclusion of Neothelid in the FBS list.

[ReaderAt2046]

You know, from the thought that the MiTD is a psionic and randomly manifesting psionic powers, possibly without really realizing it, I came across the following possibilities for most of his scenes in psionic powers:

Being in the darkness - permanent Shadow Body (8th level)

Stop Shout - could have been a variation of Ultrablast - The spell description specifically states, "You “grumble” psychically (which both psionic and nonpsionic creatures can detect), then release a horrid shriek from your subconscious that disrupts the brains of all enemies in the power’s area, dealing 13d6 points of damage to each enemy."

I have no explanation for why they didn't take damage, though.

Tower Busting - Oak Body (7th level spell). Specifically notes that you deal double damage when making a full attack against an object or structure with an unarmed strike. It would require a slight manipulation of the rules by Rich, but I believe this would significantly lower the base strength necessary to pull off the wall break.

Both could ALSO been a form of Energy Conversion (level 7). Both of his big 'damage' displays of power (shattering the ground and smashing Miko through the wall), have come almost immediately after being physically attacked by a fairly high-level character (Belkar and Miko, respectively). Since we didn't actually see him hit Miko or the ground, he could very well have fired the ray that the spell specifies.

Being a ray, it is ALSO possible by the rules for it to score a critical hit - further lowering the necessary damage to break the wall. Rich has shown he's willing to play critical hits and natural 20s/1s for plot purposes before - the MiTD statement afterwards could be interpreted as, "Awwwwww, why'd I have to roll a 20?"

O-Chul's Escape - complicated, but he could have used 3 psionic spells - Trace Teleport, Teleport Trigger and Divert Teleport (level 4, level 5 and level 7 spells). Trace Teleport at the start when V showed up so he would have a destination. The teleport trigger was unconsciously primed to O-Chul's actual danger of death (as opposed to the various tortures that really weren't serious about killing him) would have gone off, and he could have (by bending the rules a little) teleported himself 'in place' or into something solid so that it would fizzle, but Diverted O-Chul and V to their destination. Very complicated, assuming he is manifesting powers on impulse, but possible. Trace teleport could have been justified by him being really, really curious about where the hell V came from.

Or, he could simply have used Reality Revision (9th level). Specifically states, "This power can lift one creature per manifester level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and power resistance (if any) applies. "

Tsukiko's ritual - Moment of Prescience (7th level, grants a big bonus to one skill check, could have used that on the knowledge section), or possibly even just Psionic Divination (4th level, same as Divination).

All of his powers can also be handwaved with a single 9th level spell - Reality Revision. It is basically a Wish spell. It can duplicate any spell 8th level or lower (so could be done in all possibilities I have listed), or could simply carry out any effect on it's own. Somewhat backed up by the fact that the MiTD seems aware if he really, really wants something to happen, it usually happens.

Also, Energy Conversion can't be absorbing physical attacks on him unless Rich homebrewed something (immensely improbable in this case), since RAW it only works on attacks that "deal acid, cold, electricity, fire, or sonic damage."

The rest seems to fit, though.

[Olinser]

Also, Energy Conversion can't be absorbing physical attacks on him unless Rich homebrewed something (immensely improbable in this case), since RAW it only works on attacks that "deal acid, cold, electricity, fire, or sonic damage."

The rest seems to fit, though.

That's why I said some form of energy conversion. Certainly he'd have to twist the spell a little - but since he's turning physical damage into physical damage, it doesn't seem unreasonable.

I recall in written words one of the Drizzt books by Salvatore, the Drow Psion had a spell that functioned exactly like would be required - you take physical hits that don't affect you, and you can channel that energy directly into any target you wish.

[RunicLGB]

That's why I said some form of energy conversion. Certainly he'd have to twist the spell a little - but since he's turning physical damage into physical damage, it doesn't seem unreasonable.

I recall in written words one of the Drizzt books by Salvatore, the Drow Psion had a spell that functioned exactly like would be required - you take physical hits that don't affect you, and you can channel that energy directly into any target you wish.

Holy carp. The Mitd is Sebastian Shaw!

In all seriousness though I believe that book was published circa 2nd edition, which had its own psionic system and may have included abilities not present in 3.5. Further, the writer's while relatively faithful have always taken artistic liberty with functioning of magic for dramatic appeal.

[Corneel]

<snip>
Way more farfetched than the current explanation "he was hit by V's dimension lock". In general, psionics has the exact same teleport spells wizards do, with "psionic" before it, and are equally likely to the wizard version.
<snip>

Grey Wolf

Not so in second edition, where Psionics is the only to have a specific "Teleport Other" power. Food for thought?

[DaggerPen]

Not so in second edition, where Psionics is the only to have a specific "Teleport Other" power. Food for thought?

That... is interesting. You'd have to find a powerful second edition psionic monster that had never been officially updated to the third edition (probably in Dragon Magazine, since most of the others got updates, IIRC), but you'd also need a way to explain how he didn't end up Dorukan's Dungeon with the other monsters.

Hrm... is there anything that might grant immunity to such an effect in second edition, given the lack of a will save? Something that wouldn't result in Xykon being unable to control him?

[Corneel]

That... is interesting. You'd have to find a powerful second edition psionic monster that had never been officially updated to the third edition (probably in Dragon Magazine, since most of the others got updates, IIRC), but you'd also need a way to explain how he didn't end up Dorukan's Dungeon with the other monsters.

Hrm... is there anything that might grant immunity to such an effect in second edition, given the lack of a will save? Something that wouldn't result in Xykon being unable to control him?

I mentioned the power earlier in the thread. It only works on willing or unconscious targets.

[allenw]

Obviously, someone posted the correct and obvious identity of the MitD, and the site had to be taken down while all trace of the post (and the poster) was removed.

(And no, it wasn't V's gender being revealed instead; unlike MitD's identity, V's gender is unknowable and irrelevant.)

[NovaeDeArx]

So... I've spent way too much time thinking about this topic, but let me put in my two cents really quick.

First of all, we know Rich is a clever SOB, and certainly smart enough to know that any critter he pulls out of a book is going to get figured out too quickly by you lovely, obsessive people. So, we're talking misdirection.

Reading over many of the MitD strips, there's a very interesting theme that develops, most pronounced during its discussions with O-Chul (but shows up in many other places): the monster seems to be suppressing his or its memory. This, I think, is very important, as the hints that are dropped about its possible identity lead to a very surprising conclusion...

Let's review:
-The MitD has inexplicable knowledge of magic, notable during its references to the Astral Plane (which it recognizes, but can't remember ever entering) and being able to recognize Tsukiko's ritual as only half a ritual with barely a glance.
-It is able to recognize the gates, but seems to ignore them as hard as possible, and not want to recognize or remember them. This seems to be one of the stronger candidates for the MitD overtly suppressing its memory, thought or perceptions to avoid... Something.
-It is hard to estimate its intelligence, as it refers to thinking as "hard". This is probably another clue, as it is able to learn Go far too quickly, and O-Chul's conversation with it is a massive hint that the MitD is holding onto some kind of baggage from the past that is holding it back, and allowing it to be manipulated by outside forces... This sounding familiar yet?
-The MitD had a short-lived "No Girls" club. Hmm.
-The MitD has memories of a large, voracious father, and having "always" lived in the jungle where it was found.

Also, Rich has dropped hints that the MitD's identity lives in a strange place between an original and a borrowed creation. This is a very odd statement, and makes me think that the MitD might be a much more familiar character than we realize. All he really tells us is that the MitD is not a totally random made-up critter, but it CAN be something (or someONE?) that Rich has already established. Dude left a lot of room for loopholes in his statement, and went way too far out of his way to only be specific that the MitD would not be a disappointing "snarglewumpus" ass-pull.

When reflecting on the "lock" on the Snarl's cage, I remember there being a statement along the lines of "the cage/world exists in multiple parallels" or somesuch, translated into magical jargon-babble. When looking through the rift, the raven saw the (or a) world. V specifically stated shortly after something like "clearly we don't know as much as we thought about this".

Finally, I want to revisit V's deal with the fiends as well as the Oracle. The Oracle was asked when V would obtain ultimate arcane power... But was the Soul Splice really "ultimate"? Gods could have easily crushed V, for example. It made him Epic as hell, but Xyklon made pretty short work of him. I suspect that the whole thing was a setup to make the readerbase think that this was the end of the road for V's magical turbocharging.

Putting these all together, I'm thinking that the MitD is some time-shifted amalgam of V and something that will happen to him in the future. V will do something when finally face-to-face with the Snarl that will both really screw him up (memory suppression) and grant him super-awesome-ultra powers.

I also have some suspicion that V can be both the MitD and the Snarl (think about the story of the Gods getting slaughtered by the critter - if the physical form of the Snarl is metaphorical rather than actual, it could be a reference to the tangled time-lines that V creates by going through a rift or rifts) but that is much more of a stretch. However, the Snarl is pretty much the epitome of "ultimate power", able to slay gods and unmake reality for giggles.

It's a stretch to end all stretches, but from a narrative perspective it makes way more sense than anything that's been seen so far. Rich only knew what the MitD was once he developed the whole story. That suggests that the critter has some deep ties to the narrative, and this very very strongly suggests that we've already met it.

It's also vaguely possible that the MitD is some amalgam of multiple characters that fall through a rift together, further pushing the narrative theme of it as a metaphorical "snarl" of various characters' personalities. V's arcane knowledge, Elan's stupidity, Xyklon's raw power, RC or Durkon's clerical magic... Who knows what combination or permutation of their forms and powers could have been kitbashed into something that the hunters and (apparently) RC recognized incorrectly.

It also is a fun call-back to the name of the "Order" of the Stick. The characters serve as a time-looped trap for the Snarl/themselves, in a continuous cycle of self-creation that keeps them trapped throughout eternity.

Depressing as hell, but it'd set up for a cool ending.

Even if I'm wrong, I guarantee that the MitD can and will only be revealed at the end of the whole mess, as it is the only time that its appearance will make any sense to the audience.

Now. Have fun ripping me to shreds

[Grey_Wolf_c]

First of all, we know Rich is a clever SOB, and certainly smart enough to know that any critter he pulls out of a book is going to get figured out too quickly by you lovely, obsessive people.

Why do you assume we can't have figured it out, and then proceed to tell us how you have figured it out? Either it is impossible, or it is not.

In the latter case, since Rich won't confirm that we have figured it out, starting a post with "since you haven't figured it out" is inevitably wrong. You can't tell if we have or we haven't anymore than anyone other than the author can. If you believe the former, then the rest of the post is irrelevant.

Let's review:
-The MitD has inexplicable knowledge of magic, notable during its references to the Astral Plane (which it recognizes, but can't remember ever entering) and being able to recognize Tsukiko's ritual as only half a ritual with barely a glance.
-It is able to recognize the gates, but seems to ignore them as hard as possible, and not want to recognize or remember them. This seems to be one of the stronger candidates for the MitD overtly suppressing its memory, thought or perceptions to avoid... Something.
-It is hard to estimate its intelligence, as it refers to thinking as "hard". This is probably another clue, as it is able to learn Go far too quickly, and O-Chul's conversation with it is a massive hint that the MitD is holding onto some kind of baggage from the past that is holding it back, and allowing it to be manipulated by outside forces... This sounding familiar yet?
-The MitD had a short-lived "No Girls" club. Hmm.
-The MitD has memories of a large, voracious father, and having "always" lived in the jungle where it was found.

I not that you have conveniently left out 80% of all clues, specially the parts with his liking of food and his immense physical strength.

Also, Rich has dropped hints that the MitD's identity lives in a strange place between an original and a borrowed creation. This is a very odd statement, and makes me think that the MitD might be a much more familiar character than we realize. All he really tells us is that the MitD is not a totally random made-up critter, but it CAN be something (or someONE?) that Rich has already established. Dude left a lot of room for loopholes in his statement, and went way too far out of his way to only be specific that the MitD would not be a disappointing "snarglewumpus" ass-pull.

Sorry, but no. Rich was very clear: MitD is an invented monster that he didn't create. That MitD is invented was fairly clear since the tower scene, since few real-life creatures can punch horses through walls. But of the thousands of invented monsters that the combined imaginations of humankind has created, Rich has told us that MitD is one that he didn't create for the story, which rules out V, the Snarl, the OotS, etc, unless you can produce evidence that Rich used any of them in any form or fashion before he started OotS.

Finally, I want to revisit V's deal with the fiends as well as the Oracle. The Oracle was asked when V would obtain ultimate arcane power... But was the Soul Splice really "ultimate"?

Yes, it was. Rich has said as much.

From here on, you continue to posit specifically creatures that Rich created for the story, combined into a single being that, again, Rich would have had to create for the story. It is also built on the previous assertions, and without them you don't have much of a case.

Grey Wolf

[Steven]

That is, it isn't something I just made up for the story. It wouldn't be any fun for the answer to a mystery to be something I invented just for one purpose, would it? I won't finally throw back the darkness and have someone say, "Look! It was a therblewurkersaurus the entire time!" or some other made-up monster.
I realize that the line between something I made up and something someone else made up is a pretty fine one, but I trust that someone will figure it out eventually.

To me, at least, the bolded sections pretty strongly suggest that it's not something rich made up at all. It might, MIGHT, be something that he made up for a source book rather than the story but even the is stretching it as far as I can see.
The first section certainly rules out V or even an amalgamation of other characters because they were all made up for the story.

There are other reasons why I don't think your idea could be correct but unless you can give a good reason for ignoring what Rich himself has said I don't think it's worth going over them.

Edit: Good grief! Do you ever sleep Greywolf? Or are you some kind of insomniac ninja?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Edit: Good grief! Do you ever sleep Greywolf? Or are you some kind of insomniac ninja?

Purple.

GW

[DaggerPen]

snip

Ah yes, one of those.

[colanderman]

Thumbing through the Pathfinder Bestiary 2 I found Qlippoths: http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/a.../qlippoth.html

None of the Qlippoths listed seem a perfect fit for MitD, but the Augnagar is so close.

All Qlippoths:

• Horrific Appearance (Su) (effect varies by Qlippoth, but can 100% explain the circus scene)
• various teleportation abilities (Dimension Door, Word of Recall, Plane Shift), though none perfectly explain the "escape"

Augnagar in particular:

• Huge (would explain size of "dad")
• normal environment is Abyss
• DR 10/lawful (only Miko could "tickle" him)
• constant True Seeing (can't see the gates)
• 1/day Waves of Exhaustion (obviously never used for real, but maybe used as flavor?)
• Str 32 (I think that's enough for the tower scene?)
• Int 5 / Wis 20 (might explain the disconnect we see in his apparent intellect)
• "As an outsider, it does not need to eat to survive, yet it remains ravenous and feeds on anything it can overpower."

Some other Qlippoths:

• Command ("stop")
• Word of Chaos (maybe also could explain "stop")

Downsides:

• all Qlippoths are immune to mind-affecting effects
• most Qlippoths seem to have odd numbers of eyes
• temperament is… not quite correct

However the Qlippoth "family" seems SO CLOSE that perhaps there is a non-Paizo variant of the Qlippoth that does match; or perhaps Rich modified the Augnagar slightly. Just some thoughts!

EDIT: in fact, Erik Mona (now @ Paizo) first statted out these Qlippoths in Armies of the Abyss in 2002.

[NovaeDeArx]

On what Rich has said: it's all a matter of interpretation.

His language specifically states that the MitD is not a completely random creature with made-up stats. That's cool, nobody wants that.

He then, however, qualifies that statement quite heavily. The talk about a "fine line" with regard to originality makes me suspect that while the MitD will not be a (insert gibberish name here), he creates a loophole for it to be a narratively developed creation. This is, IMO, far more satisfying than a (insert extremely obscure critter here) that is almost as bad as making something up.

If nobody but 3-4 people recognize what the heck the MitD is even once it's revealed, what's the payoff?

This is why I suspect the MitD is either V or another nearly-memory-wiped-or-suppressed character, and his random flashes of not-MitD-ness seem to point most heavily towards V's aptitudes and traumas.

As for his appetite: he states in one comic that he eats because he's lonely. Also appropriate for V, who has been steadily alienating himself from his friends and family.

As for his strength and similar confusing traits: if a powerful magic-user has obtained super-Epic-level magic powers but then suppressed knowledge of them, are there really any actions that the MitD has taken that cannot be explained by the suitable application of magic, when cast (semi-consciously) by a tremendously powerful magic-user?

Also, I'm really not trying to be all "I'm right and you're wrong, nyah nyah", GW... I'm just trying to approach this from a literary/narrative perspective. I have enormous respect for the analytic skills and depth of knowledge of the D&D-verse found in this forum. However, I think Rich also does, and might be using that against us.

Not in spite of, but because all this effort by the community has still come up with nothing but contradictory monsters, I decided to try a lateral approach. I hope nobody is offended that I'm offering an alternate explanation based on this.

[DaggerPen]

On what Rich has said: it's all a matter of interpretation.

His language specifically states that the MitD is not a completely random creature with made-up stats. That's cool, nobody wants that.

He then, however, qualifies that statement quite heavily. The talk about a "fine line" with regard to originality makes me suspect that while the MitD will not be a (insert gibberish name here), he creates a loophole for it to be a narratively developed creation. This is, IMO, far more satisfying than a (insert extremely obscure critter here) that is almost as bad as making something up.

If nobody but 3-4 people recognize what the heck the MitD is even once it's revealed, what's the payoff?

This is why I suspect the MitD is either V or another nearly-memory-wiped-or-suppressed character, and his random flashes of not-MitD-ness seem to point most heavily towards V's aptitudes and traumas.

As for his appetite: he states in one comic that he eats because he's lonely. Also appropriate for V, who has been steadily alienating himself from his friends and family.

As for his strength and similar confusing traits: if a powerful magic-user has obtained super-Epic-level magic powers but then suppressed knowledge of them, are there really any actions that the MitD has taken that cannot be explained by the suitable application of magic, when cast by a tremendously powerful magic-user?

Also, I'm really not trying to be all "I'm right and you're wrong, nyah nyah", GW... I'm just trying to approach this from a literary/narrative perspective. I have enormous respect for the analytic skills and depth of knowledge of the D&D-verse found in this forum. However, I think Rich also does, and might be using that against us.

Not in spite of, but because all this effort by the community has still come up with nothing but contradictory monsters, I decided to try a lateral approach. I hope nobody is offended that I'm offering an alternate explanation based on this.

And the SBGH and Redcloak would know what he was how, exactly?

I'm sorry, but this is a truly massive leap of logic. I do personally think that the MitD does have some form of amnesia, as he not only knows nothing about himself but, despite having been raised by some type of creature who taught him manners, does not know his own name, etc. However, the idea that he is time-shifted Vaarsuvius, horribly mutated and given ultimate arcane power after an encounter with the Snarl? And the idea that this is something that Rich would expect people to be able to "figure out" eventually? Not to mention that there's no explanation as to how time-shifted Vaarsiuvius would then go back, be raised by a father much bigger than him, be identified as "one of these" by big game hunters, be recognized by Redcloak... this is just truly ludicrous. I've seen stories successfully pull of stranger twists before, but I've never seen the author who would express confidence that such a twist would be figured out eventually, nor who would say explicitly that a Vaarsivius, who was made up by him, twisted by the Snarl, who was also made up by him, was "not something he made up for the story."

And not to mention, your speculation gets us literally nowhere. There is nothing we can do with that beyond "Okay, sure, your theory has been noted." There is no evidence for it whatsoever, and it does not even begin to logically follow from the clues we've been given.

Sorry, that's a no sale here.

[AgentPaper]

I think there's value to approaching things from a literary standpoint, but the specific theory of MitD being V isn't really tenable.

One quick question: Has Rich confirmed or even implied that MitD is a statted DnD monster? I see that "Schlock Mercenary's Carbosilicate Amorph" is on the FBS list, though I suspect mostly as a joke, but what about monsters from other tabletop systems, or even other literature or mythological creatures? I can't think of any examples off the top of my head, but perhaps it might be useful to, say, trawl through all the ancient greek titans to see if any have powers matching MitD?

I bring this up because we've never actually seen MitD cast any DnD spells, or use any DnD equipment, or even reference any DnD rules, such as DR, strength, attack rolls, etc. He just kinda does what he does.