Grand Army of the Republic (Star Wars) vs. Terran Dominion Army (Starcraft)

[LaughingGnoll]

In my scenario, the Terrans, in their ever expanding style of life, stumble upon the area of space known to the Republic as the Outer Rim. Because of some unfortunate altercation, the Republic dispatches part of their Clone Army to repel the invaders, and Arcturus Mengsk has ordered that the Dominion's army mobilize to defend their newly conquered planet.

The battle will take place on an open, featureless area, with both sides entrenched in relatively fortified positions. Both armies have small squads of their respective vehicles at their disposal, as well as the personell to operate them.

The technology on both sides is fairly similar, at least in demonstrated power. While most of the Star Wars technology is laser based, the Terrans have been able to go toe to toe with the Protoss laser/shield technology and come out on top sometimes. However, the Terran Marine Corps is primarily composed of "resocialized" criminals, and morale isn't necessarily a grand feature of the Dominion forces, and the Clone Army has been "genetically engineered" to make all the soldiers less dominant.

So could a Thor take out an AT-TE? Would a Marine/Marauder Squad be able to take out the best of the squads in the 501st? Could an LAAT-Gunship fry a Viking out of the sky?

[BRC]

Depends on the size of the engagement, and if each side has equal troops. As I see it (With my limited knowledge of Star Wars), the bigger the battle, the less advantage the Terrans have.

Terran Marines have the advantage of equipment. Their basic foot soldier is wearing heavy duty power armor, and their standard weapon will blow a clone trooper to pieces with one shot.

Mind you, that's not as big an advantage as it sounds. Modern armies use weapons that blow each other to pieces with a single shot.
However, that same basic foot soldier has a good chance of being a violent criminal stuffed to the gils with stim packs. One-to-one, a Marine will smash a clone trooper. As the engagement gets larger, the trooper's superior training and discipline will start to tell. They'll get better at separating the Terran troops and engaging only when they have a numerical advantage. The Terrans will win the initial engagements, their powered armor and heavier firepower taking a serious toll, but if the campaign continues the Republic troops will adapt.

And they WILL have a Numerical Advantage. The Dominion controls only a handful of systems, with only nominal control over a few more. They are one of only a few Terran factions in the sector. Even if they were able to send their entire force, it would only be a fraction of the size of the Republic's troops.
Unless this is settled by a small skirmish or a BBQ cook off, I don't see this going well for the Terrans.

[The Glyphstone]

Agreed. On a unit-by-unit basis, the Terran forces are superior; Marines eat Clone Troopers for breakfast, Vultures are literally speeder bikes with extra armor, Goliaths are more maneuverable than AT-TEs, the Terrans have actual field-grade artillery, and every Battlecruiser is the equivalent of a Star Destroyer that's been given a scaled-down superlaser.

Morale-wise, Republic has an advantage, since all of their troops are programmed for reliability and loyalty, while only the Resocialized Terran troopers have that hard-coded programming, making their officer corps the weak point instead of the grunts.

Logistically, the Republic sweeps this entire match almost effortlessly. A vastly larger army and far more industrial output; they have entire planets dedicated to replacing lost war materiel. At worst, they can drown the Dominion by attrition.

[ZeroNumerous]

Aren't Terran Marines kind of total idiots who consistently get ambushed by hydralisks or zerglings crawling along the ceiling? Or use their thermonuclear weapon's cooling system as a beer fridge?

I would think that level of stupidity would be the deciding factor in this, given that Clones have rarely displayed the same level of intelligence.

Agreed. On a unit-by-unit basis, the Terran forces are superior; Marines eat Clone Troopers for breakfast, Vultures are literally speeder bikes with extra armor, Goliaths are more maneuverable than AT-TEs, the Terrans have actual field-grade artillery, and every Battlecruiser is the equivalent of a Star Destroyer that's been given a scaled-down superlaser.

I feel like this is a gross overestimation of the Terran's abilities. My statement on their infantry is above, so I'll continue on with the other parts.

I agree that Vultures are essentially upscaled speeder bikes, and that Goliaths are more maneuverable than AT-TEs. But they're both using incredibly crappy weapons. They're firing slug-throwers or grenade launchers, whereas even basic speeder bikes are equipped with blaster cannons--blaster cannons, I might add, are also the standard weapon for starfighters in Star Wars. Between a speeder bike and a Vulture: It depends on who shoots first. And given that the speeder bike likely doesn't need to be terribly close to fire his blaster cannon: I'm gonna give it to the speeder bike.

AT-TE vs Goliath is even more ridiculously stompy. Goliaths are firing autocannons, but the AT-TE is a mobile blister of starship-scale guns. Not only that, but the AT-TE's cannons can swivel and point in a 360 degree arc around the walker. The Goliath's mobility doesn't mean anything if the AT-TE can kill it with its laser cannons, and the Goliath certainly proves suspectible to even the small arms fire of Marines so I don't see why the AT-TE would have any trouble.

An Acclamator-class Star Destroyer vs a Battlecruiser is hilariously stompy in favor of the Star Destroyer. The basic model of Acclamator-I Star Destroyer carries up to 156 V-19 Torrent starfighters. Each of which is, at very least, equal to a Wraith. If not better, given that their pilots aren't insane. An Acclamator never needs to actually fight the Battlecruiser, as it just has to launch its fighter complement and watch the Battlecruiser struggle shortly before getting destroyed. If the Battlecruiser tries to engage, then the Acclamator can easily hyperspace to a safe distance if it feels threatened at all.

Even if the Acclamator and the Battlecruiser do get in a slugging match: The battlecruiser's only 560 meters, and considers nuclear missiles a substantial part of its armament. The Acclamator's 752 meters, and mounts several turbolasers as standard along with battleship-scale proton torpedos. While turbolasers have a storied history in terms of energy output: Attack of the Clones: Incredible Cross-Sections references these turbolasers as having 200 gigaton yields. Given that most nuclear weapons today are referenced in megatons(Mts) or kilotons(kTs)... Well, I'd say the turbolasers are substantially better.

And as far as the Yamato being anything similiar to a superlaser: Well, certain classes of Super Star Destroyers(Eclipse, specifically) have a superlaser equal to 1 of the 8 conjoining lasers that makes up the Death Star I's main gun. It's stated as taking up a substantial amount of space in the Super Star Destroyer(which are over 17,000 meters long), and could destroy other Super Star Destroyers in a single shot. Given that the Yamato can't even destroy another Battlecruiser in one shot: I highly doubt it's anything in the same league as a superlaser. At best I'd say it's a heavy turbolaser, but no where near superlaser power.

Regardless: The Acclamator's firing weapons much stronger than one of the strongest weapons the Battlecruiser has, and it's designed to fight other ships using the same category of weapons. And on top of that the Acclamator is the smallest capital ship available to the GAR. A Venator-class Star Destroyer is twice as long as the Battlecruiser(1137 meters), carries over 300 starfighters, and has substantially more firepower than the Acclamator. And, if we're talking about the late Clone Wars GAR, then they might have access to Imperial-class Star Destroyer, who're three times as long(1,600 meters) and carry proportionally more weaponry.

And, to top it all off, a group of Acclamator-Is are canonically capable of performing a Base Delta Zero.

There's really not much of a chance for the Terrans in a full head-on battle between the two.

[Dienekes]

Aren't Terran Marines kind of total idiots who consistently get ambushed by hydralisks or zerglings crawling along the ceiling? Or use their thermonuclear weapon's cooling system as a beer fridge?

I would think that level of stupidity would be the deciding factor in this, given that Clones have rarely displayed the same level of intelligence.

Yeah, the Terran can be stupid. But let's be fair here, in the movies anyway, the Clones aren't presented with an overabundance of intelligence. There only tactic seems to be clump in a mass and charge over open terrain. Yeah, terrain marines do the same thing, but they at least have medics who can apparently heal whatever damage this ridiculous tactic would inflict instantaneously.

[ZeroNumerous]

Yeah, the Terran can be stupid. But let's be fair here, in the movies anyway, the Clones aren't presented with an overabundance of intelligence. There only tactic seems to be clump in a mass and charge over open terrain. Yeah, terrain marines do the same thing, but they at least have medics who can apparently heal whatever damage this ridiculous tactic would inflict instantaneously.

To be fair, all other instances of Clones in media have them displaying substantially more intelligence. The Clone Wars cartoon is T-level canon that shows just how effective Clones can be.

Also: Medics only heal Marines that don't die instantly, and if the lethality of Han Solo's blaster pistol can be believed then there's not much left to heal after a Marine gets shot by a Clone.

[BRC]

Aren't Terran Marines kind of total idiots who consistently get ambushed by hydralisks or zerglings crawling along the ceiling? Or use their thermonuclear weapon's cooling system as a beer fridge?

I would think that level of stupidity would be the deciding factor in this, given that Clones have rarely displayed the same level of intelligence.

They're not any more or less intelligent than normal people. We see them getting ambushed in cuttscenes, but it's not something that is "Constantly" happening.
Also, zerglings and hydralisks are ambush predators. You don't have to be a Total Idiot to get ambushed by them, you just have to be unlucky.
As for the beer-cooler scene, that is more missapplied resourcefullness than stupidity. The line in question is "Thank God for Cold Fusion", implying the bomb was some kind of cold fusion device, which would likely be cold anyway. They didn't seem to think they were in any real danger, which was the stupid part, not that they decided to keep their beers cold.

The clones are probably smarter, because they're clones of a supposedly intelligent bounty hunter, raised to be soldiers and tactical thinkers. And that is an advantage, one that will become increasingly relevant as the conflict goes on and they learn their way around the terrans.

The Terrans are poorly trained, but they are wearing power armor. It will take numerical superiority and clever tactics for clone troopers to take down marines, both of which they have, but in the meantime a Marine can shrug off blaster fire while any clone troopers who get hit will be blown to pieces by their Gauss rifles. Eventually the clone troopers will start focusing fire and bringing more heavy weapons to the fight, negating the advantage that power armor brings, but in the initial clash when neither side knows the other, my money is going to be on the guys who go into battle wearing a tank.

[The Glyphstone]

"Thank Gawd for Cold Fusion". Though that may have just been more stupidity.

Fair points across the board, though I think you're making a mistake of equivalence with the battlecruiser. Your assumption is that because a Yamato blast can't kill a Battlecruiser in one hit, it must be equivalent to a weaker Star Wars weapon. Consider though that said Battlecruiser can also survive being at ground zero of a thermonuclear detonation, so either the weapon damage in-game does not reflect its supposed reality, Starcraft does not merely have weak weapons but the ability to warp the laws of physics, or else Battlecruisers are just insanely tough and well-armored, to the point where they could theoretically survive a hit from an Eclipse-class superlaser grade weapon.

Spoiler

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Battlecruiser being fragged by a Yamato blast, from an in-game cinematic.

Behemoth-class cruisers can also carry onboard Wraith fighters, which look to be much better than a V-19 Torrent - they display equivalent firepower and maneuverability, and the Wraith has an onboard cloaking device that isn't disrupted when it fires; a little bit of crazy is worth an untouchable target that can shred your enemy's fighter complement then go after his capital ship, who won't see them coming.

A group of battlecruisers canonically performed the equivalent of Base Delta Zero in the destruction of Korhal, though they used nuclear missiles instead of lasers. Battlecruisers may be smaller than their opposite numbers, but I think it's evident that they punch far above their weight class, and can take the hits commensurate to that.

(You also cited Incredible Cross-Sections, which I think is common parlance for invalidating an entire argument anywhere outside SSD.net, but mileage may vary).

[ZeroNumerous]

They're not any more or less intelligent than normal people. We see them getting ambushed in cuttscenes, but it's not something that is "Constantly" happening.

The burrow ability and it's cited in-universe danger argues otherwise. It tells me that Marines are far too stupid to look for disturbances in the ground or scout ahead. In fact, it's listed in the Starcraft 1 handbook as being "responsible for the death of countless terran soldiers".

Also, zerglings and hydralisks are ambush predators. You don't have to be a Total Idiot to get ambushed by them, you just have to be unlucky.

Ambush predators in a hallway. The only possible way to get ambushed? Not looking up.

Personally? I think you do have to be a total idiot to get ambushed when all you have to do is look up.

They didn't seem to think they were in any real danger, which was the stupid part, not that they decided to keep their beers cold.

Opening their cold fusion bomb to get out beers rather than setting it and leaving isn't stupid? Bringing beers on an important mission isn't stupid? I think the beer-bomb scene proves how incredibly stupid they are.

The Terrans are poorly trained, but they are wearing power armor. It will take numerical superiority and clever tactics for clone troopers to take down marines, both of which they have, but in the meantime a Marine can shrug off blaster fire while any clone troopers who get hit will be blown to pieces by their Gauss rifles. Eventually the clone troopers will start focusing fire and bringing more heavy weapons to the fight, negating the advantage that power armor brings, but in the initial clash when neither side knows the other, my money is going to be on the guys who go into battle wearing a tank.

Super Battle Droids go down to blaster fire easily, and they literally are walking tanks with no sensitive parts to be damaged. I doubt greatly that Marines are more resilient than Super Battle Droids. I think you're greatly overestimating the power of body armor, or greatly underestimating the power of blaster rifles. Either way, I feel the Clone's track record against Super Battle Droids is applicable here against Marines, and they've proven extremely deadly versus Super Battle Droids.

[The Glyphstone]

Opening their cold fusion bomb to get out beers rather than setting it and leaving isn't stupid? Bringing beers on an important mission isn't stupid? I think the beer-bomb scene proves how incredibly stupid they are.

It shows they're human beings, soldiers. They have personalities (if deviant ones), unlike the faceless, emotionless clones.

The burrow ability and it's cited in-universe danger argues otherwise. It tells me that Marines are far too stupid to look for disturbances in the ground or scout ahead. In fact, it's listed in the Starcraft 1 handbook as being "responsible for the death of countless terran soldiers".

Same problem again. You see that Burrow is dangerous and assume the worst interpretation possible for the Marines, that they're too stupid to look down. Burrowed enemies can only be detected by sensors also capable of tracking invisible targets, so the non-slanted interpretation is just that burrowed zerg are Really Really Hard to spot, not that they don't try.

[ZeroNumerous]

Your assumption is that because a Yamato blast can't kill a Battlecruiser in one hit, it must be equivalent to a weaker Star Wars weapon. Consider though that said Battlecruiser can also survive being at ground zero of a thermonuclear detonation, so either the weapon damage in-game does not reflect its supposed reality, Starcraft does not merely have weak weapons but the ability to warp the laws of physics, or else Battlecruisers are just insanely tough and well-armored, to the point where they could theoretically survive a hit from an Eclipse-class superlaser grade weapon.

No, I don't believe that's possible. Again, canonically a single turbolaser is 200 gigatons of power, and that kind of output outstrip thermonuclear weapons easily. I'm gonna go with #4: Battlecruisers are weakly armed and armored when compared to a different universe's standard of power.

Battlecruisers consider thermonuclear missiles as part of their main armament, and thus they are considered in-universe to be a serious threat to other Battlecruisers. The Terran army also considers nuclear missiles to be valuable and powerful weapons available only to their very well trained ghost operatives. Again, these types of weapons are only equal to the basic weapons of a Star Destroyer. So given that A) the Terran army considers these weapons viable against other battlecruisers, and B) these weapons are only equal to the basic of weapons on a Star Destroyer, I must infer that a Star Destroyer's basic weaponry would be considered a substantial threat to a Battlecruiser.

Spoiler

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Battlecruiser being fragged by a Yamato blast, from an in-game cinematic.

Again: It's an issue of scale. That blast is damaging a 560 meter ship. The Eclipse's superlaser instantly destroys a ship literally 31.25 times larger. These weapons cannot possibly be on the same scale. At all.

Behemoth-class cruisers can also carry onboard Wraith fighters, which look to be much better than a V-19 Torrent - they display equivalent firepower and maneuverability, and the Wraith has an onboard cloaking device that isn't disrupted when it fires; a little bit of crazy is worth an untouchable target that can shred your enemy's fighter complement then go after his capital ship, who won't see them coming.

Star Wars has its own variety of cloaking devices, and given that cloaking technology hasn't completely overwritten everything in Star Wars' military doctrine: I can only assume that they have ways to combat this technology. As for equivalent firepower: The Wraith seems to have trouble with Marines, organic creatures, and ground-based anti-aircraft facilities. Meanwhile, the V-19 is considered a threat to other capitalships, let alone their danger to ground-based installations.

A group of battlecruisers canonically performed the equivalent of Base Delta Zero in the destruction of Korhal, though they used nuclear missiles instead of lasers. Battlecruisers may be smaller than their opposite numbers, but I think it's evident that they punch far above their weight class, and can take the hits commensurate to that.

There's one difference between a BDZ and a nuclear bombardment of a planet: The nukes leave survivors.

And yes, I agree that they pack a punch above their weight class and can take hits. But only in their perspective universe. When each turbolaser shot is considered the equivalent of several Terran nuclear missiles: I feel that the battlecruisers are going to be greatly outclassed.

(You also cited Incredible Cross-Sections, which I think is common parlance for invalidating an entire argument anywhere outside SSD.net, but mileage may vary).

It's considered canon, so I have to use it. Otherwise I'd just cite the fact that Battlecruisers can't one-shot Marines in game and this entire argument becomes moot.

[Tavar]

I'd point out that, while Goliaths are more maneuverable than the AT-ET, the same can be said of the vulture. But that doesn't really matter, because the AT-ET isn't meant to serve the purpose of the Goliath. The former is a main battle tank analogue(so, more appropriately compares with the Siege Tank or Thor). The latter is...well, it's not a tank substitute. Probably some sort of armored vehicle comparison?

In any case, I'd say that the AT-ET preforms it's role as a tank much better than the Thor(focused on anti-infantry and anti-air combat) or the Siege Tank(which is always better as an artillery piece, rather than a tank).

[BRC]

The burrow ability and it's cited in-universe danger argues otherwise. It tells me that Marines are far too stupid to look for disturbances in the ground or scout ahead. In fact, it's listed in the Starcraft 1 handbook as being "responsible for the death of countless terran soldiers".



Ambush predators in a hallway. The only possible way to get ambushed? Not looking up.

Personally? I think you do have to be a total idiot to get ambushed when all you have to do is look up.

It's not an Ambush if you know it's coming and where to look.

Opening their cold fusion bomb to get out beers rather than setting it and leaving isn't stupid? Bringing beers on an important mission isn't stupid? I think the beer-bomb scene proves how incredibly stupid they are.

I just re watched the cinematic in question. Their orders were to go in there, set the bomb, and detonate it if they saw any signs of Zerg infestation. They scan the area with some sort of thermal visor, then crack open their beers. It's stupid that they were drinking instead of paying attention to their surroundings, but they HAD gotten the all-clear from thermal-visor guy. They probably assumed they were safe for the time being. Not a smart assumption, I'm not claiming these guys are geniuses, but you're assigning them a level of stupidity that I don't see demonstrated.

Super Battle Droids go down to blaster fire easily, and they literally are walking tanks with no sensitive parts to be damaged. I doubt greatly that Marines are more resilient than Super Battle Droids. I think you're greatly overestimating the power of body armor, or greatly underestimating the power of blaster rifles. Either way, I feel the Clone's track record against Super Battle Droids is applicable here against Marines, and they've proven extremely deadly versus Super Battle Droids.

Define "Easily". As in, does a single clone trooper just kind of casually shoot a SBD, or do they attack them with the advantage of numbers, experience, and clever tactics: The three things I say will let them take down Marines. Do they "Easily" beat SBD's, or do they "Consistantly" bead SBD's. The first implies it's no challenge, the second implies that they know how to beat SBD's.

It's also a misconception that a robot has no sensitive parts. Put a bullet through a computer and see if it works properly.

As for the power of blaster rifles, lets talk gross physical damage. If they're powerful enough to "Easily" penetrate a Marine's armor, then the landscape would look like swiss cheese after every battle. Han kills Greedo in one shot (And he shoots first), but I don't recall his blaster vaporising a good chunk of his torso, which it would need to do to take down an Armored Marine. It's simply a question of mass displaced.
I'm not saying that the Clone Troopers won't beat marines. They will. Because they are raised-from-birth soldiers instead of drugged up space-rednecks. It won't take them more than a few skirmishes before they have a whole list of ways to take down Marines, whether it's learning the weak points in their armor, or taking advantage of their lack of peripheral vision, or simply surrounding them, they will figure it out, because they're better soldiers.

What I'm saying is that, in the initial engagement, Marines have the advantage, because they don't need any special tricks. Because their weapons will blow Clone troopers to pieces.

I do have a question though. How good is your average clone trooper when cut off from the chain of command? If the Clone's commander got assassinated by a Ghost, or if a group of cloaked Banshees leveled their command post, would the clones be able to rebuild their chain of command, or would the same programming that makes them loyal and obedient prevent them from taking initiative with their commanders dead? I honestly don't know.

[The Glyphstone]

Star Wars has its own variety of cloaking devices, and given that cloaking technology hasn't completely overwritten everything in Star Wars' military doctrine: I can only assume that they have ways to combat this technology. As for equivalent firepower: The Wraith seems to have trouble with Marines, organic creatures, and ground-based anti-aircraft facilities. Meanwhile, the V-19 is considered a threat to other capitalships, let alone their danger to ground-based installations.

It has cloaking devices, yes - look at ESB; when the Falcon disappears off the Imperial-class Star Destroyer's sensors, the captain assumes the ship used a cloaking device and doesn't even attempt to keep searching, no 'activate the cloak disruptors' or 'engage the tachyon repulsion nets'. So if there is a counter for cloaking technology in SW - a single type of specialized sensor that was both rare and extremely expensive, it is not something commonly included in a Star Destroyer's sensor suite. Plus, they're rare (cloaks). In the Dominion, cloaking technology is so well-developed and commonplace that they hand it out to mid-level spec-ops assassins and mount it on all their starfighters. Again, you're taking game mechanics as canon, whereas cutscenes show Wraith blasts as very destructive, and they are in-universe designed as anti-capital ship strike craft - until the Republic starts deploying specialized cloak-detecting ships, or refits their entire fleet to carry said specialized sensors, they're sitting ducks for any Wraith pilot with a charged power generator.

There's one difference between a BDZ and a nuclear bombardment of a planet: The nukes leave survivors.

There were no survivors of Korhal. It took 49 years for the radiation levels to drop low enough to where humans could walk on the surface without dying.

And yes, I agree that they pack a punch above their weight class and can take hits. But only in their perspective universe. When each turbolaser shot is considered the equivalent of several Terran nuclear missiles: I feel that the battlecruisers are going to be greatly outclassed.



It's considered canon, so I have to use it. Otherwise I'd just cite the fact that Battlecruisers can't one-shot Marines in game and this entire argument becomes moot.

The 200 gigaton figure was canonized by one book, by one author, whose extremely flawed and generous methodology of arriving at that figure has been infamously dissected and discussed to death ever since it was published. Diehard Saxtonites still defend it, but they're the only ones.

[BRC]

There's one difference between a BDZ and a nuclear bombardment of a planet: The nukes leave survivors.

I don't recall any survivors on Korhal. Mengsk was off-planet at the time.

[ZeroNumerous]

It's not an Ambush if you know it's coming and where to look.

It's a hallway, BRC. It has two directions(forward and back) and four surfaces. It is not hard at all to avoid an ambush in a hallway.

Not a smart assumption, I'm not claiming these guys are geniuses, but you're assigning them a level of stupidity that I don't see demonstrated.

Aside from the fact that, again, they get ambushed in a hallway. There's another cinematic where two guys are driving a military jeep down a road. They hit a zergling, kill it instantly, and get out of the jeep to poke it with sticks. That's B-movie stupid, and combined with their actions in the Brood War cinematic: I have to assume they're B-movie stupid.

Define "Easily". As in, does a single clone trooper just kind of casually shoot a SBD, or do they attack them with the advantage of numbers, experience, and clever tactics: The three things I say will let them take down Marines. Do they "Easily" beat SBD's, or do they "Consistantly" bead SBD's. The first implies it's no challenge, the second implies that they know how to beat SBD's.

In the films, SBDs go down in one to two blaster shots. In my personal favorite representation of SBDs(Star Wars: Republic Commando), they take focus fire from four troopers to down. So to answer your question: Both. G-level canon says they go down "easily", lesser canon says they go down "Consistently".

It's also a misconception that a robot has no sensitive parts. Put a bullet through a computer and see if it works properly.

It's also a misconception to assume SBDs are equal to computers. They're not. They're just robotic arm/legs/bodies with remote receivers to receive orders from the actual computers. SBDs don't have brains to shoot, nor do they bleed to death nor die from shock when their limbs are blown off.

As for the power of blaster rifles, lets talk gross physical damage. If they're powerful enough to "Easily" penetrate a Marine's armor, then the landscape would look like swiss cheese after every battle. Han kills Greedo in one shot (And he shoots first), but I don't recall his blaster vaporising a good chunk of his torso, which it would need to do to take down an Armored Marine.

In the same movie, the very same blaster blows up a good chunk of concrete. In the same movie, the very same blaster proves utterly ineffective against the thin metal of the Death Star. We can argue until the cows come home about Han Solo's blaster, because it's never been consistent. But okay, I'll grant that Marines might not instantly die unless shot in the face plate.

But Clones are capable of consistently making that shot.

What I'm saying is that, in the initial engagement, Marines have the advantage, because they don't need any special tricks. Because their weapons will blow Clone troopers to pieces.

I'll grant you that.

I do have a question though. How good is your average clone trooper when cut off from the chain of command? If the Clone's commander got assassinated by a Ghost, or if a group of cloaked Banshees leveled their command post, would the clones be able to rebuild their chain of command, or would the same programming that makes them loyal and obedient prevent them from taking initiative with their commanders dead? I honestly don't know.

Clones have the same kind of tiered chain of command as many current military structures, and their immediate commanders have a wide variety of independence. If we take only the movies as canon, then every clone is as independent as every other clone. If we bring in EU canon, then at the very smallest personnel levels clones have a hard time being truly original. They all still act like soldiers, and that means they'll all continue pursuing an important objective, but it also means that they'd lose sight of the long term goal.

It all depends on what is or isn't canon.

It has cloaking devices, yes - look at ESB; when the Falcon disappears off the Imperial-class Star Destroyer's sensors, the captain assumes the ship used a cloaking device and doesn't even attempt to keep searching, no 'activate the cloak disruptors' or 'engage the tachyon repulsion nets'.

I had completely forgotten about that moment. So I suppose Wraiths actually are a threat, depending on how efficient their missiles are against armor.

Again, you're taking game mechanics as canon, whereas cutscenes show Wraith blasts as very destructive, and they are in-universe designed as anti-capital ship strike craft - until the Republic starts deploying specialized cloak-detecting ships, or refits their entire fleet to carry said specialized sensors, they're sitting ducks for any Wraith pilot with a charged power generator.

Yes, a Wraith's blast is shown as being very destructive, but not lethal. None of the Marines caught in it actually die. Ground-based missile turrets are canonically capable of stopping Wraith attacks. While they may be more dangerous versus the Acclamator than I originally thought, they don't seem like a threat to ground targets.

There were no survivors of Korhal. It took 49 years for the radiation levels to drop low enough to where humans could walk on the surface without dying.

I don't recall any survivors on Korhal. Mengsk was off-planet at the time.

I stand corrected. I thought Mengsk survived, but I was wrong.

The 200 gigaton figure was canonized by one book, by one author, whose extremely flawed and generous methodology of arriving at that figure has been infamously dissected and discussed to death ever since it was published. Diehard Saxtonites still defend it, but they're the only ones.

Unfortunately, it's still canon. Even if I think it's a bit silly, it's still what's given as their power output, and no official source has said otherwise. I can't say "This isn't canon" because officially it is. If we throw it out, then why not throw out anything that isn't directly seen on screen?

[BRC]

Provided we're talking about the same cutscene, they're not in a straight hallway. They walk through a hallway to an open chamber with a high ceiling and several doors leading in. They mention that they are supposed to detonate the bomb if they see any Zerg, it's not established if they are supposed to wait by the bomb, or if they are supposed to explore the facility and are just stopping to have a beer first.

Either way, they should have been paying more attention, but random Unarmored Guy With Thermal Goggles gave them the all-clear, so they assume they are safe for a few minutes. Maybe they don't think there are any Zerg on the station at all. At the time they are not "Looking" anywhere, they are facing inwards, drinking beer and talking to one another.
Which is even stupider than simply not looking up. The point is that they were in no way expecting an attack. They had reason to (They were apparently sent there to look for zerg), but they were not expecting it.


Edit: So Clone Troopers are perhaps slightly more vulnerable to a decapitating strike, but it dosn't sound like it's enough to make a big difference compared to how normal humans would cope with a similar situation.

[Soras Teva Gee]

I saw a few people asking about the numbers issue. Umm can we be sure the clones are going to have a numerical advantage?

Just reading up there's apparently quite a bit of discrepancy on the actual clonepower of the so-call grand army. Including some stupid small numbers in the mere millions.

[Mercenary Pen]

I saw a few people asking about the numbers issue. Umm can we be sure the clones are going to have a numerical advantage?

Just reading up there's apparently quite a bit of discrepancy on the actual clonepower of the so-call grand army. Including some stupid small numbers in the mere millions.

The line that canon seems to be drawing towards these days is 3 million + clones, with the Essential Guide to Warfare (published 2012) stating that Sifo-Dyas's initial order was for 3 million clones (p75), but suggesting that additional orders were subsequently placed (p97)- however, many battles in the war were fought with neither clones nor battle droids in attendance (p85).

Have provided page references in case somebody with the actual book wishes to double check my references- but from what I have seen, The essential guide to warfare was published with the aim of tying everything back together with as many retcons as they felt were needed- making certain that the official line on many of these issues was no longer ambiguous (even if some people still choose to dispute it).


Returning to the matter at hand, clone troopers were also equipped with EMP-Grenades- which should negate the advantage of their opponents power armour (though under the wrong circumstances it can also render the display inside a clone trooper's helmet useless for a period of time).

[Soras Teva Gee]

The line that canon seems to be drawing towards these days is 3 million + clones, with the Essential Guide to Warfare (published 2012) stating that Sifo-Dyas's initial order was for 3 million clones (p75), but suggesting that additional orders were subsequently placed (p97)- however, many battles in the war were fought with neither clones nor battle droids in attendance (p85).

Have provided page references in case somebody with the actual book wishes to double check my references- but from what I have seen, The essential guide to warfare was published with the aim of tying everything back together with as many retcons as they felt were needed- making certain that the official line on many of these issues was no longer ambiguous (even if some people still choose to dispute it).

Yeah but the 3 million we are talking exponentially below what a real galactic conflict should be.

Mind I couldn't find anything on actual numbers for the Terrans. Just that numerical superiority doesn't seem to be quiet assumable as it should be for a "sector" vs galaxy basis.

[Logic]

Or use their thermonuclear weapon's cooling system as a beer fridge?

Speaking from my own personal military experience (I am still a reservist aircraft mechanic) if you have a cooling device nearby and handy, it will get used as a beer fridge, despite its design goal of cooling a thermonuclear weapon. This isn't idiocy, this is using something to your advantage, that it was not what it was originally designed to do. You could argue this is not idiocy, but instead ingenuity.

[GolemsVoice]

Regarding the video: the only assault that happens is from the roof, which is, if you watch it, dimly lit and clouded by the obligatory spaceship-smoke. The Zerg coming down the hallway are just attacking, and you'll notice the marines start shooting them as appropriate.

The fact that the marines drink beer out of a nuclear fridge? The average life expectancy of a marine is not exactly high, and that's before combat drugs that eat you alive. Something as slow as radiation won't kill them.


Speaking of tactics:
I'm sure the clone troopers are capable of much more, and there are sources that show them as the soldiers they're supposed to be, but if I remember the the movie right (I don'T know which one, the one where they attack the big ball-shaped ships on the ground), their plan of attack was "march into enemy fire in a 19th century fashion"

[Soras Teva Gee]

The fact that the marines drink beer out of a nuclear fridge? The average life expectancy of a marine is not exactly high, and that's before combat drugs that eat you alive. Something as slow as radiation won't kill them.

I'd doubt there's any dose of radiation to be had that would be worse then what they got on that little shuttle coming in.

A properly shielded device should be essentially worry free anyways. Unless that thing is actually leaking radioactive material (ie its faulty) then it wouldn't make much difference if they carried the beers in their hands. Most radiation poisoning is from active contamination from radioactive particles themselves. Getting the stuff in your clothes, hair, fingernails, or injesting. So keeping yourself safe is a matter of keeping yourself clean, decom is a vigorous wash for this reason. But you have to have an actual leak for that to happen.

And if we take the marines at face value and that this is a fusion reaction... well IIRC H-bombs only actually cause fallout because at present you need an A-bomb to get the temperature you need. Cold fusion obviates that requirement by definition.

Radiation is easily the MOST overblown fear anywhere, ever.

[Logic]

I'd doubt there's any dose of radiation to be had that would be worse then what they got on that little shuttle coming in.

A properly shielded device should be essentially worry free anyways. Unless that thing is actually leaking radioactive material (ie its faulty) then it wouldn't make much difference if they carried the beers in their hands. Most radiation poisoning is from active contamination from radioactive particles themselves. Getting the stuff in your clothes, hair, fingernails, or injesting. So keeping yourself safe is a matter of keeping yourself clean, decom is a vigorous wash for this reason. But you have to have an actual leak for that to happen.

And if we take the marines at face value and that this is a fusion reaction... well IIRC H-bombs only actually cause fallout because at present you need an A-bomb to get the temperature you need. Cold fusion obviates that requirement by definition.

Emphasis mine. Science Fiction is somewhat to blame for showing futuristic fusion drives that emit boatloads of radiation, when for the most part, those things would be less efficient than modern reactors.

Radiation is easily the MOST overblown fear anywhere, ever.

Unless you are someone like Thomas Edison, and actively playing with something you have little understanding of.

[Traab]

I think for the moment we can ignore the numerical issue, as the OP states that its only a portion of the armies. So lets assume fairly equal in numbers. Marines are great at mowing down standard clone troopers. They have better armor, and I believe their weaponry would prove more effective against clone trooper armor, than blasters would against marine armor. Then you have marauders. These are troops that do damage specifically against armored units. They are there to bust open protoss shields, and blow up the robotic/cybernetic units. They would also likely do well against light armored vehicles like speeder bikes. Siege tanks have ludicrous range, and massive explosive damage. Im talking able to wipe out entire squads with 1-2 shots from so far away the enemy doesnt even see what killed them. Goliaths I would put on similar levels to the 2 legged walkers. Thors on the big at-ats.

As for air craft, those wraiths would be absolute MURDER in a fight. Unless there is some sort of anti stealth capability in the empire that would be included as standard on a mission of this type, (meaning before they know they NEED anti stealth) Then the wraiths would have a field day slaughtering enemy air AND ground simply by strafing and moving. They may or may not be able to do anything useful to enemy capitol ships. I mean, the x wing fighters were causing fairly noticeable damage to the surface of the death star. Blowing up weaponry, causing some internal explosions, things of that nature. So wraiths might at least be handy to take down shield emitters and target the weaponry, leaving the star wars ships sitting ducks. It may take more than 2 yamato blasts to drop a star destroyer, but thats ok, because they are defenseless now.

Someone mentioned hyperspace as a method for the destroyers to escape at need. Dont the battlecruisers have that as well? Also, I recall in the starcraft 2 cinematics, watching the battlecruisers use rather impressive point defense weaponry on small fry. They had a lot of guns blasting down a lot of zerg and such all around them. So it wouldnt be as easy as unleashing their complement of tie fighters and hanging back. Also, thats ignoring the battlecruisers wraith escorts. If star wars cant counter that stealth, they are utterly, utterly, screwed.

Ground defense. Those bunkers backed by siege tanks are an evil bastard to break through. With a solid wall of them, you will require air attacks to stand even a chance of breaking through, any ground troops would be obliterated.

Then you have the special forces. Ghosts/Specters. Say goodbye to all of your high ranked officers. Enjoy the 5 seconds you have to figure out what that red laser marker is for before your command center blows up. Cloaking is once again murder. Feel free to bunker down, a few nuclear launches will punch a hole in whatever is there, leaving an opening for the terrans to push through.

[The Glyphstone]

Frankly, the tactical nukes launched by Ghosts are the least threatening thing ghosts can do...sure, OMG NUKES is scary, but it's another gameplay conceit that a nuke cannot be intercepted or shot down save by killing the ghost in time (and it's 10 game seconds anyways, so presumably much longer in 'realtime'). They might slip a nuke past the Star Wars ground-to-air defenses, but they're better off using their unbeatable stealth to turn the enemy command structure into swiss cheese.

[JCarter426]

Yeah but the 3 million we are talking exponentially below what a real galactic conflict should be.

I want to stress the idiocy of the clone numbers, because... well, it doesn't deserve to be understated... at least not as much those numbers are. In Attack of the Clones it is said they have 200,000 units with a million more underway; 200,000 is fewer than the number of soldiers who died in the American Civil War. Even if you increase to the Expanded Universe's maximum of 3 million, it's still fewer than the total amount of soldiers involved in the civil war of one country on one planet 150 years ago.

The opening crawl states "several thousand solar systems have declared their intentions to leave the Republic" and this is later said to be more than ten thousand. Ten thousand. For every enemy star system, the Republic has about 300 clones. Good luck, guys.

[oblivion6]

in my opinion the clone army should be much bigger. the republic is simply too large for a meager army of 3 million clones to sufficiently defend

i think the clones tactics could also carry them through to victory. outside of the movies they do show an extraordinary grasp of strategy and battlefield tactics

[Logic]

I want to stress the idiocy of the clone numbers, because... well, it doesn't deserve to be understated... at least not as much those numbers are. In Attack of the Clones it is said they have 200,000 units with a million more underway; 200,000 is fewer than the number of soldiers who died in the American Civil War. Even if you increase to the Expanded Universe's maximum of 3 million, it's still fewer than the total amount of soldiers involved in the civil war of one country on one planet 150 years ago.

The opening crawl states "several thousand solar systems have declared their intentions to leave the Republic" and this is later said to be more than ten thousand. Ten thousand. For every enemy star system, the Republic has about 300 clones. Good luck, guys.

Sorry to nitpick, but I think this needs to be addressed.

The US military has about 3 million members of the armed forces, and about half of that is the Reserve component of its respective branch. The numbers are way too few, but 3 million is a sizable force for an Earth nation 150 years ago. Planetary size, 3 million is a drop in the bucket. Galactic size, you might as well not even bother putting up a resistance if your army is a meager 3 million strong.

If I am misinterpreting you, but 3 million troops at 150 years ago doesn't exactly add up.

[Gnoman]

If I am misinterpreting you, but 3 million troops at 150 years ago doesn't exactly add up.

Counting both the Union and the Confederacy, there were three millions under arms during the American Civil War. Grant's Army of the Potomac alone had more than one million troops. That's clearly the war which he was referring to. In more recent wars, that's fairly small. Some countries had more than 3 million dead on the field during both World Wars, for example.