Attack on Titan / Shingeki No Kyojin

[noparlpf]

By the way, the Garrison performs maintenance on the walls, gates, cannons, &c. They don't just sit there drinking and gambling.

Remmeber that titans regenerate quickly, as in within minutes, and whilst you're clustering around to capture it all the other titans are drawn to you because they're always drawn to clumps of people. Likewise any defences you try to prepare outside the walls, any attempt to carry out significant work outside the walls means you're setting up the titan buffet.

That wasn't my post...

[Kato]

BRC, you are missing one major point... The area within the walls may be rather comfortable but the population is pretty much at its limit (reportedly) Oh, sure, they could start to regulate birth rates (or maybe try to improve their agriculture) but opposed to earth there is some inert pressure to regain land outside, apart from the feeling of being caught in a cage. They will at some point in the not so far future run out of resources, and not considering this is shortsighted. Yeah, maybe this will take another generation or two, but in far less generations than it will take on earth there will be serious problems if they are stuck inside the walls. Losing the first wall meant sending thousands to their death because they couldn't sustain them anymore, if they could at least retake this they would gain pretty much and reconquering the planet from that perspective is much more than longing for freedom, even if it is a long-term plan.

[HamHam]

Imagine if we learned that Space was full of horrible monsters that wouldn't enter our atmosphere. If we left the planet they would attack and eat us.

Everybody would wish they were not there. Some people would insist we go out and attack them. But most people would just stay on earth.

It's like that.

Actually I'm pretty sure we would start an extermination campaign the likes of which has not been seen in centuries. Governments are paranoid about potential threats. Just because they haven't come and eaten us yet doesn't mean they aren't going to.

Especially when the "atmosphere" is just a bunch of stone and mortar that could come crumbling down at any time.

[banthesun]

I'm going to use this discussion as a chance to reintroduce that Attack on Titan fangame, since that's what changed my views on the competency of the troops. Before I played that game, I felt that all the faceless recruits dying was just to make the titans seem scary, but now I that dying on your first engagement makes sense for this universe.

I saw a few people talking in this thread about how the physics of the game and the anime were different, but from what I've seen all the moves from the series that don't explicitly break the laws of physics ("It can see through our movements!" "So I'll do moves that are impossible.") are in the game, there's just some tricks to pulling them off.

The two pieces of advice I'd give for learning the game is that Q and E fire a cable directly at your cursor, and that shift gives you a gas boost, which can be combined with the wasd keys to adjust your movement. Firing Q and E at a titan's weak point and then holding down shift is enough to get you a kill on many of the smaller ones.

Also, play on the old_level2 map. It looks a lot nicer, the titans are in better scale to the buildings, the titans are in smaller groups, there's more varied terrain, and the titans won't rush you as soon as you spawn.

The game really does take a bit of learning before you can be swinging round killing titans, but that's one of my favourite parts. Every time you die, think back to one of the fresh recruits getting plucked out of the air and eaten. I really feel the game is true to the series, at least in that regard.

[noparlpf]

I'd like to see somebody do some calculations on the forces involved in the 3DMG. Somebody who remembers their basic physics.

[banthesun]

I'd like to see somebody do some calculations on the forces involved in the 3DMG. Somebody who remembers their basic physics.

Same. I'd imagine the returning cables whipping around would be more dangerous that the titans.

[Tectonic Robot]

I'm going to use this discussion as a chance to reintroduce that Attack on Titan fangame, since that's what changed my views on the competency of the troops. Before I played that game, I felt that all the faceless recruits dying was just to make the titans seem scary, but now I that dying on your first engagement makes sense for this universe.

I saw a few people talking in this thread about how the physics of the game and the anime were different, but from what I've seen all the moves from the series that don't explicitly break the laws of physics ("It can see through our movements!" "So I'll do moves that are impossible.") are in the game, there's just some tricks to pulling them off.

The two pieces of advice I'd give for learning the game is that Q and E fire a cable directly at your cursor, and that shift gives you a gas boost, which can be combined with the wasd keys to adjust your movement. Firing Q and E at a titan's weak point and then holding down shift is enough to get you a kill on many of the smaller ones.

Also, play on the old_level2 map. It looks a lot nicer, the titans are in better scale to the buildings, the titans are in smaller groups, there's more varied terrain, and the titans won't rush you as soon as you spawn.

The game really does take a bit of learning before you can be swinging round killing titans, but that's one of my favourite parts. Every time you die, think back to one of the fresh recruits getting plucked out of the air and eaten. I really feel the game is true to the series, at least in that regard.

This game is hard, man. Hard.

[Flickerdart]

Is it possible to mod a second grappling hook into Just Cause 2?

[t209]

This game is hard, man. Hard.

And that is why people avoid the Survey Corps during the first manga. Most of them came back battered and injured with no success. Even more hopeless than Cure for Cancer.

[Rising Phoenix]

Two words: Armchair Generals.

Yup cause history is full of tacticians who couldn't think on the fly and come up with brilliant plans...

I am by no means a tactical/army genius. But a quick look at Roman history proves that the commanders in this show are in fact idiots.

As for the populace not caring, everyone should care. If they don't, they deserve and will go extinct.

[Tectonic Robot]

Actually I'm pretty sure we would start an extermination campaign the likes of which has not been seen in centuries. Governments are paranoid about potential threats. Just because they haven't come and eaten us yet doesn't mean they aren't going to.

Especially when the "atmosphere" is just a bunch of stone and mortar that could come crumbling down at any time.

I... disagree. I believe we would ignore the monsters. It'd be too hard to fight them.

Yup cause history is full of tacticians who couldn't think on the fly and come up with brilliant plans...

I am by no means a tactical/army genius. But a quick look at Roman history proves that the commanders in this show are in fact idiots.

As for the populace not caring, everyone should care. If they don't, they deserve and will go extinct.

I disagree, again. I don't really think that any of us, in the position of the people of the show, would do any better. ^^''

[Rising Phoenix]

I... disagree. I believe we would ignore the monsters. It'd be too hard to fight them.



I disagree, again. I don't really think that any of us, in the position of the people of the show, would do any better. ^^''

Personally I would NOT ignore the monsters. They are no. 1 threat to my survival. I am going to take every feasible precaution to prevent my demise to them.

To counteract your second point of course none of us would not be able to formulate accurate solutions. The people in the army, however, who have received extensive training and experience on the other hand should be able to produce sound plans.

if we can drive large animals to extinction by using spears and fire we most certainly drive to extinction mindless titans.

E.g. Dig large, deep pit. Cover pits wall in grease. Lure titans into pit. Kill them from afar while they are hapless. Rinse and repeat until problem solved. You do not have to be a military genius to come up with effective ideas like that.

[Tectonic Robot]

Personally I would NOT ignore the monsters. They are no. 1 threat to my survival. I am going to take every feasible precaution to prevent my demise to them.

To counteract your second point of course none of us would not be able to formulate accurate solutions. The people in the army, however, who have received extensive training and experience on the other hand should be able to produce sound plans.

if we can drive large animals to extinction by using spears and fire we most certainly drive to extinction mindless titans.

E.g. Dig large, deep pit. Cover pits wall in grease. Lure titans into pit. Kill them from afar while they are hapless. Rinse and repeat until problem solved. You do not have to be a military genius to come up with effective ideas like that.

Titans regenerate damage, are fast, and very strong. I think you are underestimating the difficulty of killing them, and the ease of trapping them. What if a huge titan comes by the pit, too big to be trapped in it? Y'know, things like that.

Most people, in the position of the civilians, would not worry too much about the titans in the years preceding the anime. They never bothered them within the city, after all, and fighting them seemed futile and impossible, because really, you aren't accomplishing anything. There are too many titans. It'd take hundreds of years to slowly whittle down their numbers, and the potential for catastrophe is high.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

I think that one of the explicit points of the show is this: there is a great potential for humans to become apathetic when they isolate themselves from evil. There's a slow, festering sort of corruption behind Wall Sina, and it's not even a malevolent "muahaha, we are evil!" thing--it's the corrosion of virtue. I'm pretty sure that the Survey Corps are one of the least-eroded organizations in all of humanity, based on what we've seen thus far in the show.

That's part of the core philosophy of SnK, and if you disagree with that (or can't accept that it exists in a fictional world), of course you'll think that the show is unreasonable. But there it stands.

Note how isolated everyone behind a wall is from the people beyond that wall. This holds especially true for the upper crust people found behind Sina. They don't care about the outside world. They trust that there's other people who are going to protect them from the Titans, so that they can sustain their comfortable life.

There's even people in the military who don't take the fight against the Titans seriously, because they don't live on the frontlines. Like the corrupt soldiers selling off 3DMG.

That's why Titan Shifters are such a threat: they waltz right through the security blankets of the people inside the rings, the people who keep ignoring that which would scare the living daylights out of them.

This is a show about a humanity that has declined into a state of fear and weakness. I have my suspicions that it's going to be a show about the slow, bloody fight to revitalize humanity.

[BRC]

Personally I would NOT ignore the monsters. They are no. 1 threat to my survival. I am going to take every feasible precaution to prevent my demise to them.
.

Except that, as far as anybody is aware, the Monsters are not a threat. That's the point. They are scary and dangerous, but they are ELSEWHERE, they don't threaten you until you go looking for them. If you stay put, they cannot harm you.

Do you go to the zoo and try to shoot the Tigers in the cages? Do you think that we SHOULD be shooting all the tigers in zoos, after all they represent a threat. Heck, statistically speaking they represent more of a threat than the Titans did before the Collossal Titan, since there are actually records of Tigers breaking out.

Remember that the Collossal Titan was unprecedented. People had been living safely in the walls for generations without ever seeing a Titan. Heck, some people worshipped The Walls.


At any moment we could find out that a massive Meteor is heading towards the Earth to kill us all. We have no evidence that this is going to happen, but we know it could. And yet the nations of Earth are not collectively scrambling to go to space and figure out some sort of Meteor-Defense mechanism. Some people are, but the vast, vast majority of people, including people in positions of power, live their lives unconcerned with the possibility of a global exctinction event caused by massive spacerocks. Everybody knows that the Spacerocks exist, and that a big enough meteor could wipe us all out.

Which is technically MORE evidence of danger than people had pre-Colossal Titan about the Titans. We KNOW that sufficently large meteors exist. As far as they were aware there was no Titan big or strong enough to breach The Walls.

[Rising Phoenix]

Titans regenerate damage, are fast, and very strong. I think you are underestimating the difficulty of killing them, and the ease of trapping them. What if a huge titan comes by the pit, too big to be trapped in it? Y'know, things like that.

Mammoths were big, very strong and heavier then most of the smaller titans. they didn't regenerate health, but you get my point.

Also the average height appears to be ~15-20 meters. a pit of 30 meters takes care of that.

Also have you tried standing on a soap covered surface? It doesn't matter how big or strong you are let alone if you have poor hand to eye coordination.

and even if larger ones does come along? You lure it away from the pit/have team levi and co. take care of it. They are stupid, if you cannot manipulate that to your advantage you do not deserve to survive as a species.

Except that, as far as anybody is aware, the Monsters are not a threat. That's the point. They are scary and dangerous, but they are ELSEWHERE, they don't threaten you until you go looking for them. If you stay put, they cannot harm you.

Do you go to the zoo and try to shoot the Tigers in the cages? Do you think that we SHOULD be shooting all the tigers in zoos, after all they represent a threat. Heck, statistically speaking they represent more of a threat than the Titans did before the Collossal Titan, since there are actually records of Tigers breaking out.

Remember that the Collossal Titan was unprecedented. People had been living safely in the walls for generations without ever seeing a Titan. Heck, some people worshipped The Walls.


At any moment we could find out that a massive Meteor is heading towards the Earth to kill us all. We have no evidence that this is going to happen, but we know it could. And yet the nations of Earth are not collectively scrambling to go to space and figure out some sort of Meteor-Defense mechanism. Some people are, but the vast, vast majority of people, including people in positions of power, live their lives unconcerned with the possibility of a global exctinction event caused by massive spacerocks. Everybody knows that the Spacerocks exist, and that a big enough meteor could wipe us all out.

Which is technically MORE evidence of danger than people had pre-Colossal Titan about the Titans. We KNOW that sufficently large meteors exist. As far as they were aware there was no Titan big or strong enough to breach The Walls.

For your first point. A tiger is always a threat, that's why you have precautions in the way of tranqs, riffles, trained personnel and dogs to further minimize the threat. You will never eliminate the threat 100%, but you can make the chances of crap hitting the fan negligible.

Also I do not think that a tiger is an accurate comparison to a titan. A tiger is an endangered species because WE have driven them to the point of extinction because we use them for Chinese medicine, rugs etc and have destroyed their habitat. A tiger is really not something to be feared cause overall we control the situation.

Titans on the other hand are a) abundant, b) are largely unknown in their function and 'biology', c) are in control of the situation cause society is run by corrupt morons and even those that are not corrupt have the deductive capabilities of a trash can.

Our brains are the only reason we are were we are in the foodchain today. Not numbers, not strength, not speed. It is intelligence and these people are severely lacking in it.

So yes, they deserve to die, all of them.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

At any moment we could find out that a massive Meteor is heading towards the Earth to kill us all. We have no evidence that this is going to happen, but we know it could. And yet the nations of Earth are not collectively scrambling to go to space and figure out some sort of Meteor-Defense mechanism. Some people are, but the vast, vast majority of people, including people in positions of power, live their lives unconcerned with the possibility of a global exctinction event caused by massive spacerocks. Everybody knows that the Spacerocks exist, and that a big enough meteor could wipe us all out.

Great, now you've got me thinking about 3D Maneuver Gear IN SPAAAAAAAAAAAAACE!

Shingeki no Ashi-teroidu: Attack on Space

[thubby]

Titans regenerate damage, are fast, and very strong. I think you are underestimating the difficulty of killing them, and the ease of trapping them. What if a huge titan comes by the pit, too big to be trapped in it? Y'know, things like that.

Most people, in the position of the civilians, would not worry too much about the titans in the years preceding the anime. They never bothered them within the city, after all, and fighting them seemed futile and impossible, because really, you aren't accomplishing anything. There are too many titans. It'd take hundreds of years to slowly whittle down their numbers, and the potential for catastrophe is high.

large spikes in a pit would leave them to regenerate around the spikes just like the girl did, trapping them until they were crushed. at which point they conveniently evaporate.

[t209]

Mammoths were big, very strong and heavier then most of the smaller titans. they didn't regenerate health, but you get my point.

Also the average height appears to be ~15-20 meters. a pit of 30 meters takes care of that.

Also have you tried standing on a soap covered surface? It doesn't matter how big or strong you are let alone if you have poor hand to eye coordination.

and even if larger ones does come along? You lure it away from the pit/have team levi and co. take care of it. They are stupid, if you cannot manipulate that to your advantage you do not deserve to survive as a species.

How about resources?
- How many workers are willing to dig a moat under titan attack.
- What if Shifter came along?

[Tectonic Robot]

Mammoths were big, very strong and heavier then most of the smaller titans. they didn't regenerate health, but you get my point.

Also the average height appears to be ~15-20 meters. a pit of 30 meters takes care of that.

Also have you tried standing on a soap covered surface? It doesn't matter how big or strong you are let alone if you have poor hand to eye coordination.

and even if larger ones does come along? You lure it away from the pit/have team levi and co. take care of it. They are stupid, if you cannot manipulate that to your advantage you do not deserve to survive as a species.

Mammoths weren't aggressive, though. They did not chase down humankind and try to eat them.

Where are you building this 30 meter deep pit, anyway? Outside the walls? On the inside, planning to open them and allow the titans to run in?

And the titans can smash stone walls with their faces. An abberant who falls down there might flail and smash apart the sides of the pit, causing the thing to turn into a sort of ramp. How wide would it be, anyway?

Levi and company could probably do some good work, but still, it'd be very dangerous, especially as more titans came towards the pit. You'd run the danger of the thing being filled up and the titans climbing over it and towards the town-people-whatevers.

@thubby: They wouldn't die from being crushed. The area around the neck needs to be cut out. Smashing wouldn't do it.

[Kato]

Great, now you've got me thinking about 3D Maneuver Gear IN SPAAAAAAAAAAAAACE!

Shingeki no Ashi-teroidu: Attack on Space

That would have been kind of cool in Armageddon...


Not to argue real world politics but while asteroids are somewhat an issue... well, space is huge, and this works both ways. Yeah, there are lots of big pieces of rock (and ice) out there) but there is a whole lot more space. The odds of one of these dropping here are far too low and we have much more pressing matters than to invest all our resources on looking out for asteroids.
Humanity in SnK really has only one problem... Titans. And maybe a few criminals. And lack of food, but that's somewhat related tp problem #1.

[Wolf_Haley]

large spikes in a pit would leave them to regenerate around the spikes just like the girl did, trapping them until they were crushed. at which point they conveniently evaporate.

Or the spikes would break while their regenerating, and what would you do about abberrants? Armchair Generals for real.

[BRC]

How about resources?
- How many workers are willing to dig a moat under titan attack.
- What if Shifter came along?

They JUST learned that Shifters exist. The discussion is their tactics in the years BEFORE the current events of the series.
If they're stupid, it's because they did not properly use the information and resources at their disposal, not because they did not have information they had no way of getting. If they're Smart it's because they did make good use of the information and resources they had, NOT because they rejected ideas that are only bad when you factor in information that did not have (the existence of Shifters).

Digging Pits could be done with Gunpowder, it wouldn't be pretty but you could finish it off by hand later.

Also it dosn't look like the regeneration has any force to it. When they impale Titans with spikes (Sawney and Bean) the Titans don't regenerate and push the spikes out. It seems like if there is something physically in the Titan it has no way of getting it out (Unless its a Shifter who is smart enough to pull it out).

[John Cribati]

That would have been kind of cool in Armageddon...


Not to argue real world politics but while asteroids are somewhat an issue... well, space is huge, and this works both ways. Yeah, there are lots of big pieces of rock (and ice) out there) but there is a whole lot more space. The odds of one of these dropping here are far too low and we have much more pressing matters than to invest all our resources on looking out for asteroids.
Humanity in SnK really has only one problem... Titans. And maybe a few criminals. And lack of food, but that's somewhat related tp problem #1.

Yeah, and if the Colossal Titan didn't kick in the wall, they wouldn't have a Titan problem to begin with. So yeah, there really would be no reason to actually go fight them when you could stay in the walls.

[lord_khaine]

Or the spikes would break while their regenerating, and what would you do about abberrants? Armchair Generals for real.

Build a set of pillars around the pits, so people like Levi can slice any abberant titan to ribbons.

[Rising Phoenix]

Mammoths weren't aggressive, though. They did not chase down humankind and try to eat them.

Where are you building this 30 meter deep pit, anyway? Outside the walls? On the inside, planning to open them and allow the titans to run in?

And the titans can smash stone walls with their faces. An abberant who falls down there might flail and smash apart the sides of the pit, causing the thing to turn into a sort of ramp. How wide would it be, anyway?

Levi and company could probably do some good work, but still, it'd be very dangerous, especially as more titans came towards the pit. You'd run the danger of the thing being filled up and the titans climbing over it and towards the town-people-whatevers.

@thubby: They wouldn't die from being crushed. The area around the neck needs to be cut out. Smashing wouldn't do it.

You haven't been close to wild elephants have you? Anyhow, force a pointy stick in an elephant/get near to a baby elephant and if you are not fast enough you are dead.

And again your point about smashing doesn't stand: grease/super glue/ harpoons/whatever. You can make certain they don't get out.

They JUST learned that Shifters exist. The discussion is their tactics in the years BEFORE the current events of the series.
If they're stupid, it's because they did not properly use the information and resources at their disposal, not because they did not have information they had no way of getting. If they're Smart it's because they did make good use of the information and resources they had, NOT because they rejected ideas that are only bad when you factor in information that did not have (the existence of Shifters).

Digging Pits could be done with Gunpowder, it wouldn't be pretty but you could finish it off by hand later.

Also it dosn't look like the regeneration has any force to it. When they impale Titans with spikes (Sawney and Bean) the Titans don't regenerate and push the spikes out. It seems like if there is something physically in the Titan it has no way of getting it out (Unless its a Shifter who is smart enough to pull it out).

Thank you, this what I am saying and the overwhelming evidence indicates that they did not use or build upon the information they have.

[Tectonic Robot]

You haven't been close to wild elephants have you? Anyhow, force a pointy stick in an elephant/get near to a baby elephant and if you are not fast enough you are dead.

And again your point about smashing doesn't stand: grease/super glue/ harpoons/whatever. You can make certain they don't get out.



Thank you, this what I am saying and the overwhelming evidence indicates that they did not use or build upon the information they have.

No, I haven't been close to wild elephants. Have you? Honest question, there.

Be that as it may, I doubt that they're quite as aggressive as you portray them. I still doubt that they are as hyper-aggressive as the titans are. A quick googling has failed to turn up anything other than that pushing them into pits or tripping them were commonly used tactics, and I can't find anything else about their psychology when confronted with humans.

I don't see how grease would stop abberants from smashing things, and why that wouldn't be a valid way for said titans to escape. Same for glue. I doubt there's a glue humanity is capable of making at the time which would effectively hold titans down. Harpoons have been shown to work by shooting the titans in their joints, which may work well on singular specimens, but a writhing, growing pit of monsters sounds like a less than ideal location for that tactic to succeed to me.

I don't see the evidence as being very overwhelming, myself.

[Raimun]

Whoa, that game is hard. I can kill a few titans but there's only so much one man can do. If only I had someone as a bait...
Also, what's up with not being able to look down well? Kind of defeats the purpose of high ground.

As for tactics against the titans in the show? Do remember that they would require better technology to implement most of your plans. As far as we can see, they have at the most the technology of the early 1800.

Of course, some people would just solve that problem by "just having them invent new stuff, it's not that hard, am I right? I read about inventions in wikipedia.". And that doesn't even take into account that titans are still trying to eat the workers who are building the elaborate traps.

Either way, on Attack on Titan, you can't have your cake and eat it. In fact, at the moment, the protagonists are trying to figure out where they can even find a cake.

[BRC]

Whoa, that game is hard. I can kill a few titans but there's only so much one man can do. If only I had someone as a bait...
Also, what's up with not being able to look down well? Kind of defeats the purpose of high ground.

As for tactics against the titans in the show? Do remember that they would require better technology to implement most of your plans. As far as we can see, they have at the most the technology of the early 1800.

Of course, some people would just solve that problem by "just having them invent new stuff, it's not that hard, am I right? I read about inventions in wikipedia.". And that doesn't even take into account that titans are still trying to eat the workers who are building the elaborate traps.

Either way, on Attack on Titan, you can't have your cake and eat it. In fact, at the moment, the protagonists are trying to figure out where they can even find a cake.

Most of the tactics suggested so far involve rope, pits, and sharp things. I have yet to see any suggestions relying on technology they don't have in the show.

[Finlam]

Most of the tactics suggested so far involve rope, pits, and sharp things. I have yet to see any suggestions relying on technology they don't have in the show.

I also find myself wondering if the titans are flammable at all, or if they have an aversion to fire. It seems a giant pit to trap them + a fire to burn them might not be the worst idea... Did they ever actually try to set them on fire?