SW Saga Edition Thread 2: The Sith Lords

[LibraryOgre]

Thats how I usually handle Dark Side things. Although, I do like the 2 FP/session and any extra accrue DS points idea. That is a very enticing idea...

I introduced it, and also brought in some poker chips. Everyone gets 2 blue chips, and 1 red chip. They're nice, weighty things. They've got a little heft, and a shiny smoothness.

The result? They spend their force points, rather than hoarding them. Having the manipulative in front of them reminds them of it, and there's always that point where there's just a LITTLE more you could use.

But then they've spent their two blues. And they REALLY need something. They need to hit. They need to defend. They need to make that one skill check. And they can wait, try again... or they can slide me that red chip, roll their die... and I slide the red chip right back. "Oh, no, you keep it. Just increase your DS score by 1."

And it sits there, redly tempting them to spend it.

[kreenlover]

they can slide me that red chip, roll their die... and I slide the red chip right back. "Oh, no, you keep it. Just increase your DS score by 1."

And it sits there, redly tempting them to spend it.

Ooh, thats so nasty! I should totally do that! It fits the feel of the Dark Side exactly!

[LibraryOgre]

Ooh, thats so nasty! I should totally do that! It fits the feel of the Dark Side exactly!

I also make it a point to note that they could spend that dark side point and probably succeed.

[Alejandro]

I introduced it, and also brought in some poker chips. Everyone gets 2 blue chips, and 1 red chip. They're nice, weighty things. They've got a little heft, and a shiny smoothness.

The result? They spend their force points, rather than hoarding them. Having the manipulative in front of them reminds them of it, and there's always that point where there's just a LITTLE more you could use.

But then they've spent their two blues. And they REALLY need something. They need to hit. They need to defend. They need to make that one skill check. And they can wait, try again... or they can slide me that red chip, roll their die... and I slide the red chip right back. "Oh, no, you keep it. Just increase your DS score by 1."

And it sits there, redly tempting them to spend it.

Is your GM chair able to rotate? That's really important, too.

[VeliciaL]

Is your GM chair able to rotate? That's really important, too.

Theme music would be icing.

[kreenlover]

And I'd say add a white cat as well, but that is going off genre

Instead, just add a hood and a scenic backdrop!

[Alejandro]

And I'd say add a white cat as well, but that is going off genre

Instead, just add a hood and a scenic backdrop!

I've actually placed a d20, 20 face up, on the table, petted it, and said 'you want this, don't you.'

[kreenlover]

I've actually placed a d20, 20 face up, on the table, petted it, and said 'you want this, don't you.'

I think this thread is turning into the 'how to be an evil GM' thread, and I love it!

I am stealing all of these!

[Beleriphon]

More as an addition to that: spending a Force Point to immediately gain any Force Power, even one not normally in your repertoire.

That was the idea yes. It works pretty well for Dark Side temptation.

[Echobeats]

I have a couple of questions which may well be easily answered or already covered in the first Saga thread, so please forgive me if they are: I've been unwell and don't have the energy to look through stuff properly.

1. Spending Force Points to regain expended Force Powers. In the Core Book this is supposed to be a swift action, though it was errata'd to be a reaction. But a reaction to what? A reaction has to have a trigger, and none is stated.

I think I've seen something about it being part of another reaction, e.g. if you are out of uses of Rebuke, you can use it anyway at the cost of a Force Point. But most Force Powers are not used as a reaction, and if the rule only applied to those that are, surely it would say so? Should this really be "no action", done as part of the action you use to activate the Force Power in question?

2. I am trying to design an encounter in which pirates/bounty hunters cut their way into the ship using buzz droids or something similar (see Threats p142), and the PCs are then faced with two simultaneous fights: one at starship scale against pirate's ship and one at character scale against the boarders. How do I know when the buzz droids have cut their way through? Clearly it would be silly to say the ship is only breached when the ship is reduced to 0hp: that would take forever even with no opposition, and then the ship would be disabled because of one tiny hole. I looked at the "Attack Object" rules, but I don't know what material your average ship is made of. Is there anything in the books that would tell me?

I could of course say that the droids break through at the speed of plot, but it would be nice to know the RAW before I start messing around.

(Don't worry, the pirates will patch up the hole once inside so that all the air doesn't escape :P.)

Thanks a lot folks.

[Alejandro]

I have a couple of questions which may well be easily answered or already covered in the first Saga thread, so please forgive me if they are: I've been unwell and don't have the energy to look through stuff properly.

1. Spending Force Points to regain expended Force Powers. In the Core Book this is supposed to be a swift action, though it was errata'd to be a reaction. But a reaction to what? A reaction has to have a trigger, and none is stated.

I think I've seen something about it being part of another reaction, e.g. if you are out of uses of Rebuke, you can use it anyway at the cost of a Force Point. But most Force Powers are not used as a reaction, and if the rule only applied to those that are, surely it would say so? Should this really be "no action", done as part of the action you use to activate the Force Power in question?

2. I am trying to design an encounter in which pirates/bounty hunters cut their way into the ship using buzz droids or something similar (see Threats p142), and the PCs are then faced with two simultaneous fights: one at starship scale against pirate's ship and one at character scale against the boarders. How do I know when the buzz droids have cut their way through? Clearly it would be silly to say the ship is only breached when the ship is reduced to 0hp: that would take forever even with no opposition, and then the ship would be disabled because of one tiny hole. I looked at the "Attack Object" rules, but I don't know what material your average ship is made of. Is there anything in the books that would tell me?

I could of course say that the droids break through at the speed of plot, but it would be nice to know the RAW before I start messing around.

(Don't worry, the pirates will patch up the hole once inside so that all the air doesn't escape :P.)

Thanks a lot folks.

1. I believe that was done so a character could, say, regain a Force power like Rebuke as a reaction to someone Force Lightninging them. Not sure if it actually works that way, though. Someone else might know. In the end, it doesn't happen often anyway.

2. The pirates are far more likely to use explosive charges or fusion cutters, both are in the book. They would have to overcome the ship's DR (if they are cutting through the outside hull, or something less if they're already inside and cutting through a door. Choose a suitable HP total and go with it, or just decide when the pirates breach through for cinematic purposes.

[LibraryOgre]

I can understand the rule of cool on the buzz droids, but my pirates tend to use air locks... they attach to the ship, run a docking tube, and hack open the airlock (with Use Computer) or force it mechanically.

[Mando Knight]

Scum and Villainy introduces the Plasma Torch and Tractor Clamp (the former is an addition to the latter, which is a means of securely gripping another ship for boarding operations). The torch only deals 1d6 damage per round (piercing DR and shields, and the damage is low due to not attacking major structural elements), but can cut through a hull in a number of rounds equal to the target ship's DR.

It also has a Plasma Punch, which is a turbo-charged independently-mounted torch that takes half as long to cut through the target ship.

[Beleriphon]

1. Spending Force Points to regain expended Force Powers.

2. I am trying to design an encounter in which pirates/bounty hunters cut their way into the ship using buzz droids or something similar (see Threats p142)...

1. I'm pretty sure this is a reaction to the player wanting to use the Force power again. I'd assume that its actually supposed to be No Action, but somebody forgot that they could list something that way.

2. Use the blast door options on page 151 or the core rules. There are rules for the blast doors, or even a ship hull. Both have a Damage Reduction, HP total and Damage Threshold listed. The rules for damaging objects are on the same page. A group of buzz droids would make short work of the hull option though, so maybe look at the blast doors instead.

[Ahrimon]

I'm hopefully going to be joining a saga game this weekend and I've had so many ideas go though my head that I just don't know what to pick. Admitedly I start a character with an idea, theme, and/or image and go from there. I love the iconic imagery of the lightly armored sith warriors from the opening of cinematics of SW:TOR and have decided that is what I want to go for. I don't want to go for a melee focused character as another player is going for a DW beast rider jedi.

I've decided on a light armor wearing, human jedi caster with strong piloting. Everyone is starting at lvl 1 and we can use any book available. I do want to be a yang ti monk (sp) from jedi accademy since I love the idea of just teleporting a ship instantly accross the galaxy. Beyond that I'm not sure what route to take. I normally build the first five levels or so of a character to have a rough path. Armor wise, I'm going to get "storm trooper" armor and just make it look like more of a generic. I've noticed that the storm trooper armor stats get repeated for just about any military grade light armor (clone trooper, sith trooper, etc). Eventually I want to get the improved armor talent, but that can wait until lvl 7/8ish.

Originally I was going to go Jedi 1/soldier 1/jedi 3
Feats:
lvl 1- SF:UTF (before I read the forums)
H- force training
lvl 2- soldier: light armor
lvl 3- Jedi: force training
lvl 3- ??

talents:
Jedi 1: Force pilot
Soldier 1: Armor training
Jedi 3: the teleport ability

But now I'm contemplating trying out using scout as the base class. Scout 1/Jedi 4
As far as the lightsaber goes, he'll just start with a broken one that he "fixes" at 2nd level. heh.

Feats:
lvl 1- Force sensitive
H-light armor
lvl 2- Jedi: lightsaber proficiency
lvl 3- Force training
lvl 3- Jedi: Force Training

Talents:
Scout 1: Evasion
Jedi 1: ??
Jedi 3: ship teleporting.

I might swap the human and lvl 3 feat and just wait for the light armor to start off with some force powers since that is more of the schtick than than his appearence. If I do that, it does open up the possibility for me to take the monk talent that ignores the dark side descriptor on one force power. I can then use force lighting to my hearts content. But I'm ok with sticking to move object for my force attacks. The scout also gives me the option just taking the pilot skill and not burning a precious talent slot on it. The scout does end up a little more feat starved since I won't be getting the free armor feat. Maybe soldier 1 for lvl 3 to pick it up...

Can anyone help me flesh out the character? I'm new to saga and they're are so many cool options that I'm facing option paralysis. lol.

Side note: Can someone point me to the errata that makes move object have a range of 12? Thanks.

[Echobeats]

I don't have time to comment fully, but just one thing I spotted.

Feats:
lvl 1- Force sensitive
H-light armor
lvl 2- Jedi: lightsaber proficiency
lvl 3- Force training
lvl 3- Jedi: Force Training

Force Training isn't a Jedi bonus feat, so you can only take it as your character feat every third level. I understand this is intentional.

"Ship Teleporting" is called Fold Space and Folded Space Mastery.

[Alejandro]

I'm hopefully going to be joining a saga game this weekend and I've had so many ideas go though my head that I just don't know what to pick. Admitedly I start a character with an idea, theme, and/or image and go from there. I love the iconic imagery of the lightly armored sith warriors from the opening of cinematics of SW:TOR and have decided that is what I want to go for. I don't want to go for a melee focused character as another player is going for a DW beast rider jedi.

I've decided on a light armor wearing, human jedi caster with strong piloting. Everyone is starting at lvl 1 and we can use any book available. I do want to be a yang ti monk (sp) from jedi accademy since I love the idea of just teleporting a ship instantly accross the galaxy. Beyond that I'm not sure what route to take. I normally build the first five levels or so of a character to have a rough path. Armor wise, I'm going to get "storm trooper" armor and just make it look like more of a generic. I've noticed that the storm trooper armor stats get repeated for just about any military grade light armor (clone trooper, sith trooper, etc). Eventually I want to get the improved armor talent, but that can wait until lvl 7/8ish.

Originally I was going to go Jedi 1/soldier 1/jedi 3
Feats:
lvl 1- SF:UTF (before I read the forums)
H- force training
lvl 2- soldier: light armor
lvl 3- Jedi: force training
lvl 3- ??

talents:
Jedi 1: Force pilot
Soldier 1: Armor training
Jedi 3: the teleport ability

But now I'm contemplating trying out using scout as the base class. Scout 1/Jedi 4
As far as the lightsaber goes, he'll just start with a broken one that he "fixes" at 2nd level. heh.

Feats:
lvl 1- Force sensitive
H-light armor
lvl 2- Jedi: lightsaber proficiency
lvl 3- Force training
lvl 3- Jedi: Force Training

Talents:
Scout 1: Evasion
Jedi 1: ??
Jedi 3: ship teleporting.

I might swap the human and lvl 3 feat and just wait for the light armor to start off with some force powers since that is more of the schtick than than his appearence. If I do that, it does open up the possibility for me to take the monk talent that ignores the dark side descriptor on one force power. I can then use force lighting to my hearts content. But I'm ok with sticking to move object for my force attacks. The scout also gives me the option just taking the pilot skill and not burning a precious talent slot on it. The scout does end up a little more feat starved since I won't be getting the free armor feat. Maybe soldier 1 for lvl 3 to pick it up...

Can anyone help me flesh out the character? I'm new to saga and they're are so many cool options that I'm facing option paralysis. lol.

Side note: Can someone point me to the errata that makes move object have a range of 12? Thanks.

Well, as has already been pointed out, Force Training is not a bonus feat. You can only take it with your 1st, 3rd, 6th, and so on feats, as well as your Human bonus feat.

Also, note that unless you start with Jedi as your first level, you won't own a lightsaber. The rules don't make this perfectly clear. It's meant to keep any random PC from magically suddenly owning a lightsaber just by taking a Jedi level at some point in their career.

So, if you are more interested in Force powers than lightsabering, and you want to be a good pilot, I suggest you go:

1 Scoundrel
2 Jedi
2 Soldier

Start as a Scoundrel, and train lots of skills. Make sure to include Pilot, Mechanics, and Use Computer, as these are the three starship skills you'll need. For your talent, take Spacehound, making you proficient with all starship weapons. Spend your Human feat on Force Sensitivity and your level 1 feat on Force Training (obviously you'll need to train Use the Force too.) Pick powers you like.

Next two levels, go Jedi. Take Lightsaber proficiency for your free Jedi feat. For your Jedi talent, if you aren't going to focus on the lightsaber, choose some Force talent that benefits your Force power usage. At the second level of Jedi, if you want to be particularly good at flying, spend your bonus feat on Skill Focus: Pilot, or something else as your game and idea dictate. For your 3rd level feat, take Force Training again and get more Force powers.

Levels 4 and 5 are Soldier. Learn Light Armor as your free Soldier class feat, and then Armored Defense as your Soldier talent, so the armor can remain beneficial to you later. For your Soldier bonus feat, you could (again, depending on your game and idea) pick up Skill Focus: UtF (if your GM allows you to) or some other feat you like.

End result, level 5 PC that can fly, wear armor, use Force powers, and knows how to use a blaster pistol (with Point Blank Shot, too.)

[Echobeats]

To spice up an encounter (the "Confrontation with Demos" in ep. 2 of Dawn of Defiance), I am thinking of adding a couple of traps, namely two 2x2 trapdoors in the floor which Demos will immediately open if the heroes step on them. Some of the guards may also try to Bullrush the heroes over the edge if they get the chance. One of the players expressed disappointment that there weren't trapdoors in the floor of the throne room, not knowing he would have to fight there later, so I'm going to grant his wish :P.

My question is, what CL would you give a trap like this (i.e. how many XP are they worth)? The pits will be 6m (4 squares) deep, so 2d6 falling damage, and Climb DC 15 to get out. There is a CL table for traps on p5 of the Encounter Budget guide, but there doesn't seem to be an obvious slot for a trap that does 2d6 damage once only, has +20 to hit, and leaves you prone and stuck down a hole.

My party consists of six 5th-level heroes, none of whom are particularly good at climbing or acrobatics. Because DoD is designed for parties of four, I essentially need to increase the XP award for each encounter by 50% in order to keep them progressing at the right rate.

Thanks for your help.

[Mando Knight]

The trap is worth precisely 300 credits per player. (A jetpack makes the entire pit trap worthless after the initial surprise)

[LibraryOgre]

I would say pretty low... only CL 1 or 2, maybe 3 if they're really hard to detect.

2d6 damage, even with a good chance to hit (i.e. +20 to hit pretty much hits everyone at low levels), isn't going to be instantly fatal to ANYONE... even with a 6 Con (the lowest available), a 1st level character has no fewer than 16 HP. Depending on how hard it is to find, that's less a "trap" and more an "annoyance" or "battlefield hazard".

So, make it a low CL, and give it enough of a DC that they'll have to work a bit. I would also define the action for each check, ESPECIALLY if they're going to be in combat areas... require them to take a swift action to locate pits and they're going to be a LOT more cautious.

[Echobeats]

Thanks. Yeah, I was thinking CL1 or 2 would be about right. It's not intended to kill them: I use "trap" in its sense as a technical term.

One PC does have a jetpack, but he didn't bring it with him. Maybe he will after this fight :P.

Related question: what CL would you give a zero-G environment? I think this should technically be a hazard, though the core book doesn't describe it as such. My plan for the space-pirates encounter (see above) is that once aboard they will turn off the artificial gravity: they will all have Spacehound, which none of the PCs do. As this adds to the difficulty of the encounter (due to the -5 penalty) I think there should be extra XP.

[LibraryOgre]

I wouldn't give zero-g a CL so much as increasing the CL of the encounter, if the enemies are prepared and the party is not... and even then, I'd only say 1 point or so.

[Mando Knight]

Related question: what CL would you give a zero-G environment? I think this should technically be a hazard, though the core book doesn't describe it as such. My plan for the space-pirates encounter (see above) is that once aboard they will turn off the artificial gravity: they will all have Spacehound, which none of the PCs do. As this adds to the difficulty of the encounter (due to the -5 penalty) I think there should be extra XP.

The space pirates should only be allowed access to the gravity controls if they take over the System Operator or Engineer positions... by either taking over the physical location or by having a slicer sit back and hack the computer system (it takes full-round actions for each attempt to improve access, the slicer would have poor initial access, and would need to reach Friendly before issuing the Routine Command standard action to turn off gravity).

Otherwise, the players may complain about the pirates taking over the ship without actually being in place to take it over.

[Nepenthe]

Having never played or read Saga, I'm curious. How well does the system support a character who wants to dual-wield a melee and ranged weapon? The concept always seems cool but is usually prohibitively expensive/ineffective in most RPGs.

[LibraryOgre]

Having never played or read Saga, I'm curious. How well does the system support a character who wants to dual-wield a melee and ranged weapon? The concept always seems cool but is usually prohibitively expensive/ineffective in most RPGs.

On the face, it does not. OTOH, I have a person in my game who said "Can I do this? Not use them at the same time, just have a blaster in one hand and a sword in the other?" I said yes. There has been no major difference.

FWIW? Unless you're trying to shoot someone while stabbing someone else, I wouldn't make it a big deal.

[Nepenthe]

FWIW? Unless you're trying to shoot someone while stabbing someone else, I wouldn't make it a big deal.

But do characters have enough resources to invest in both and still be half-decent at either?

[Philistine]

But do characters have enough resources to invest in both and still be half-decent at either?

Generally, yeah. "Half decent" at ranged combat in SWSE really just requires a decent Dex score and two Feats, Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot (and PBS only because it's the prereq for PS). To be "half decent" in melee combat you'll want a decent Str, then you'll probably burn a Feat for WP: Advanced Melee Weapons and perhaps another for either Power Attack or Weapon Finesse. If you've got your heart set on dual-wielding, you'll want all 3 Dual Weapon Mastery Feats as well - and you might also want to look at the Master Privateer PrC's "Privateer" Talent tree on p52 of the Force Unleashed CG.

Also, nice username.

[Echobeats]

Generally, yeah. "Half decent" at ranged combat in SWSE really just requires a decent Dex score and two Feats, Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot (and PBS only because it's the prereq for PS). To be "half decent" in melee combat you'll want a decent Str, then you'll probably burn a Feat for WP: Advanced Melee Weapons and perhaps another for either Power Attack or Weapon Finesse. If you've got your heart set on dual-wielding, you'll want all 3 Dual Weapon Mastery Feats as well - and you might also want to look at the Master Privateer PrC's "Privateer" Talent tree on p52 of the Force Unleashed CG.

Also, nice username.

If you have Weapon Finesse, then as long as you are wielding a light melee weapon or lightsaber, your Str doesn't matter all that much, as your melee attacks will be Dex-based. The only prereq is BAB +1, so if you start as a Jedi or Soldier you can take it at 1st level.

[Echobeats]

The space pirates should only be allowed access to the gravity controls if they take over the System Operator or Engineer positions... by either taking over the physical location or by having a slicer sit back and hack the computer system (it takes full-round actions for each attempt to improve access, the slicer would have poor initial access, and would need to reach Friendly before issuing the Routine Command standard action to turn off gravity).

Otherwise, the players may complain about the pirates taking over the ship without actually being in place to take it over.

I quite agree. I was planning to have one of them head for the engine room and sabotage the gravity generator. Or they might even break straight into the engine room by cutting through the hull. Or both :P.

What would you require the pirates to do in order to break the gravity? Mechanics DC17, full-round?

[Hyena]

Having never played or read Saga, I'm curious. How well does the system support a character who wants to dual-wield a melee and ranged weapon? The concept always seems cool but is usually prohibitively expensive/ineffective in most RPGs.

Well, there is master privateer prestige class.