Dresden Files II: Dealing Drugs To Tiny Faeries

[BRC]

It occurs to me that Hades and Harry are in basically the same line of work, what with Demonreach and Tartarus and all that.

[Cikomyr]

It occurs to me that Hades and Harry are in basically the same line of work, what with Demonreach and Tartarus and all that.

Maybe Hades was the first Warden? I mean, Merlin built the present's prison, but the prisonners were held elsewhere before?

[tomandtish]

No. Dresden says in the first book, when explaining what the Nevernever is to the reader, that it does, with certainty, contain both Heaven and Hell.

As for Hades... Remember that in the Dresdenverse, Fairy is a part of the fabric of reality, part of the defense of Creation as such. I see no contradiction in mixing Greek gods and the Holy Grail or anything else.

Actually, there seems to be a lot of back and forth. So I think a lot of it is what people may think or believe.

You get this reference in book 2 when talking to Kim:

Spoiler

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I studied her face for a moment. “If I read the symbols correctly, it’s a third wall. Built to withhold creatures of flesh and spirit. Neither mortal nor spirit but somewhere in between.”
She frowned. “What kind of creatures are like that?”
I shrugged. “None,” I said, and officially, it was true. The White Council of wizards did not allow the discussion of demons that could be called to earth, beings of spirit that could gather flesh to themselves. Usually, a spirit-circle was enough to stop all but the most powerful demons or Elder Things of the outer reaches of the Nevernever. But this third circle was built to stop things that could transcend those kinds of boundaries. It was a cage for demonic demigods and archangels.

You get a stronger reference in Book 4, but notice the last line (marked for emphasis).:

Spoiler

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The Nevernever is a big place. In fact, it’s the biggest place. The Nevernever is what the wizards call the entirety of the realm of spirit. It isn’t a physical place, with geography and weather patterns and so on. It’s a shadow world, a magical realm, and its substance is as mutable as thought. It has a lot of names, like the Other Side and the Next World, and it contains within it just about any kind of spirit realm you can imagine, somewhere. Heaven, Hell, Olympus, Elysium, Tartarus, Gehenna—you name it, and it’s in the Nevernever somewhere.
In theory, at any rate.

So it seems clear that even Harry doesn't know for sure where Heaven and Hell are. There are theories, and people may have their beliefs, but there's no certainty on our end. Might be a good question for him to ask Uriel next time they chat.

[Cikomyr]

Well, sorry Avilan. I'm going to have to shuffle your theory back to the "unproven" file

[Anderlith]

Dresden is an unreliable narrator, & those are just theories & conjecture. & like I said before. The Gates are the edge of our reality, why would Dresden call it anything else? It can still be that their is another reality out there

[Lamech]

Spoiler

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I studied her face for a moment. “If I read the symbols correctly, it’s a third wall. Built to withhold creatures of flesh and spirit. Neither mortal nor spirit but somewhere in between.”
She frowned. “What kind of creatures are like that?”
I shrugged. “None,” I said, and officially, it was true. The White Council of wizards did not allow the discussion of demons that could be called to earth, beings of spirit that could gather flesh to themselves. Usually, a spirit-circle was enough to stop all but the most powerful demons or Elder Things of the outer reaches of the Nevernever. But this third circle was built to stop things that could transcend those kinds of boundaries. It was a cage for demonic demigods and archangels.

You'll also note that the book 2 cosmology has wildly diverged from later books cosmology. For example, archangels are NOT beings of spirit+flesh. In fact, they are being of neither spirit nor flesh. If its in book 1-3, there is a good chance that it has been retconned, is a reflection of Harry's youthful ignorance and untrue.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Even the fourth book example is probably a bit dodgy on Heaven/Hell given that we don't know if the Fallen/Nickelheads were conceived the mythos could still be influx.

[Mauve Shirt]

MAY 27TH

So long from now! =(

[Somebloke]

Ohmygodohmygodohmygod...

(Checks phone clock)

(Checks it again 30 seconds later)

Awesome work Mauve Shirt!

[tomandtish]

So in my birthday month I get a new Dresden Files novel AND a Godzilla move?!?

I ... I... sniff...

This is the best Christmas news ever!

[CarpeGuitarrem]

So in my birthday month I get a new Dresden Files novel AND a Godzilla move?!?

I ... I... sniff...

This is the best Christmas news ever!

I get the distinct feeling that Dresden would approve mightily of that proximity.

[Landis963]

I recently finished Proven Guilty, and something occurred to me in the shower.

Spoiler: She was watching.

Show

Mab was watching the entire time. Mab, Queen of Air and Darkness, who could possibly wipe the floor with any invading force, reinforcements or no. She let Harry have a shot at Lloyd Slate? At freeing Lea? At setting fire, Summer Fire no less, to the very heart of Arctis Tor? Of all of Winter?

What could she possibly gain from that?

[Avilan the Grey]

I recently finished Proven Guilty, and something occurred to me in the shower.

Spoiler: She was watching.

Show

Mab was watching the entire time. Mab, Queen of Air and Darkness, who could possibly wipe the floor with any invading force, reinforcements or no. She let Harry have a shot at Lloyd Slate? At freeing Lea? At setting fire, Summer Fire no less, to the very heart of Arctis Tor? Of all of Winter?

What could she possibly gain from that?

In the long run?
1. A first look at Molly as a backup candidate for Winter Lady
2. Getting closer to her goal of getting Harry as Winter Knight. She REALLY wanted him. And LIKED him. That is scary, in a way all by itself...

[Rake21]

I recently finished Proven Guilty, and something occurred to me in the shower.

Spoiler: She was watching.

Show

Mab was watching the entire time. Mab, Queen of Air and Darkness, who could possibly wipe the floor with any invading force, reinforcements or no. She let Harry have a shot at Lloyd Slate? At freeing Lea? At setting fire, Summer Fire no less, to the very heart of Arctis Tor? Of all of Winter?

What could she possibly gain from that?

A couple of things:

Spoiler

Show

It gave Harry a chance to show Harry who might be on the Black Council, someone who could toss around Hellfire and was probably a Denarian. At the same time, she gave Harry a brief glimpse at the powers of the Enemy by letting him see Lea. I doubt Mab would have let Harry free her if he hadn't realized something was off.

As for the Summer Fire bit, I figure Mab wanted an excuse to pull her troops back without seeming to agree with Titania.

Hell, even the loss of the eldest Fetch probably wasn't a big deal for Mab. In her mind, she probably sees the Scarecrow losing to Dresden as a clear sign that it had come to the end of its usefulness, while affirming her belief that Harry's the man when want for the Mantel of the Winter Knight. If it had killed Dresden, then her assassin was still as good as ever, and Dresden wasn't worth her time.

[Soras Teva Gee]

>That moment when you realize Proven Guilty is one of the most successful Xanatos Gambits ever.

[Landis963]

A couple of things:

Spoiler

Show

It gave Harry a chance to show Harry who might be on the Black Council, someone who could toss around Hellfire and was probably a Denarian. At the same time, she gave Harry a brief glimpse at the powers of the Enemy by letting him see Lea. I doubt Mab would have let Harry free her if he hadn't realized something was off.

As for the Summer Fire bit, I figure Mab wanted an excuse to pull her troops back without seeming to agree with Titania.

Hell, even the loss of the eldest Fetch probably wasn't a big deal for Mab. In her mind, she probably sees the Scarecrow losing to Dresden as a clear sign that it had come to the end of its usefulness, while affirming her belief that Harry's the man when want for the Mantel of the Winter Knight. If it had killed Dresden, then her assassin was still as good as ever, and Dresden wasn't worth her time.

Oh my god.

>That moment when you realize Proven Guilty is one of the most successful Xanatos Gambits ever.

In Shadowrun it's "never deal with a dragon". In Dresdenverse it's apparently "never deal with a Fae." At least demons let you know where they stand.

[Rake21]

Oh my god.



In Shadowrun it's "never deal with a dragon". In Dresdenverse it's apparently "never deal with a Fae." At least demons let you know where they stand.

And that's why Mab is so damn awesome. She brings more power to the table than the Red King and his cronies. She uses cat's paws in ways the the White Court could never dream of. And she plays the long game far better than anything we've seen from Nicodemus and his pocket change, as great of villains as those two are.

[Kuulvheysoon]

>That moment when you realize Proven Guilty is one of the most successful Xanatos Gambits ever.

Pretty much this.

[Anderlith]

Which will be all the more awesome when Dresden finally out-Gambits her. (It's gotta happen)

[Mauve Shirt]

Well we had a whole book about his attempt to gambit Mab.

[123456789blaaa]

I don't have time to reformat the whole thing and post it here but there was actually a great thread by poster Elegast on the DF boards on the many theories before Cold Days and how the book supported them (the first two posts detail the various theories. The 3rd is when the using of CD starts). PG was actually a loss for Mab. In Jim's own words:

<snip>
Also, it has probably occurred to more than one of you that if Mab was /really/ in trouble, she could have had the entire military might of Faerie back at the fortress in moments--exactly the way they *did* come back when Harry smacked the Winter Well with the fires of Summer.

(Which goes to show that while Mab may be canny to an inhuman degree, she isn't infallible. Just way closer to infallible than us.)
<snip>

[Mauve Shirt]

It seems to me that Mab wanted to kidnap Molly purely to do whatever needed to be done to prepare her to be an emergency backup lady. Faerie already knew of Molly's potential. I wonder if Charity has anything to do with Molly's eligibility.

[Soras Teva Gee]

PG was actually a loss for Mab. In Jim's own words:

Umm no... with more context your WoJ isn't talking about the events of the book at all. But that offscreen battle at an indeterminate time, ergo not the book at all.

And it was all just as planned, let them win, etc.

Your bolded part is attesting that she didn't nessecarily intend for Summer Fire to meet Winter Wellspring... which was an accident by Harry anyways. Beating the fetches, either Harry does it or he wasn't up to her standards anyways.

Seriously the full quote is all confirm that Mab totally set everything up according to keikaku though. He doesn't tell us why though.


(Also that thread entertains the silly notion that Mab would help Harry directly to overcome a challenge she set for him... completely against her nature. Why do so people get that Little Chicago was a genuine miracle? Almost as bad as the bad and wrong notion that Mr Sunshine can only operate on balance, which is totally untrue and everyone who read Warrior should know it. Not that it isn't apparent everywhere else)

[123456789blaaa]

Umm no... with more context your WoJ isn't talking about the events of the book at all. But that offscreen battle at an indeterminate time, ergo not the book at all.

And it was all just as planned, let them win, etc.

The WOJ-the entire WOJ- is about a variety of different things. He talks about the offscreen battle for two sentences:

"Another mild correction: who says Mab /lost/ the battle at Arctis Tor, before Harry and Company arrived? At the end of the day, the Winter Queen was still in her fortress--but you didn't see anyone standing around assaulting the place, did ya.".

These are part of the paragraph that includes the sentences in the snipped WoJ I posted. He's talking about seperate things though. That's why he says "Another mild correction" in the above quote and why he says "Also" at the beginning of the snipped WoJ. I didn't include the rest of the paragraph because it was irrelevent and unneeded. Yeah he uses the snipped WoJ sentences as a hypothetical about the offscreen battle but he also talks about an event in the books (Harry pouring the Summer Fire).

The rest of the WOJ he's talking about the fetches (not) being her strongest servitors, why Mab kidnapped Molly, how ruthless Mab is, etc.

Your bolded part is attesting that she didn't nessecarily intend for Summer Fire to meet Winter Wellspring... which was an accident by Harry anyways. Beating the fetches, either Harry does it or he wasn't up to her standards anyways.

I don't believe I said otherwise? . That was why I posted the WoJ. Harry doing that was a loss for Mab. Yeah she gained from PG (possibly preparing Molly to become a backup Winter Lady, etc) but the leaving of the Outer Gates unguarded is huge.

And yes, it was an accident. The idea in the thread is that it was the Eldest fetch purposfully caused it.

Seriously the full quote is all confirm that Mab totally set everything up according to keikaku though. He doesn't tell us why though.

Yes.

<snip>
Why do so people get that Little Chicago was a genuine miracle?
<snip>

Requesting clarification.

[Lamech]

Requesting clarification.

The little Chicago thing is widely suspected as a miracle because Bob said it should have exploded, but someone fixed it. Their are numerous suspects: Mister a.k.a. Wedge is obviously suspect. Any of the angels could have pulled it off in all likelihood. Lasciel quite possibly.

However looking back at it with the knowledge Fae can bypass thresholds I suspect it was Mab. IIRC, Leia was still trapped in ice by Mab and therefore Mab was the one fulfilling her debts. Like Leia's garden for Harry, I suspect things like mystical explosion removal was part of her job.

[datalaughing]

>That moment when you realize Proven Guilty is one of the most successful Xanatos Gambits ever.

I'm not sure it is. The thing is, if Harry dies, Mab gets very little out of the events of Proven Guilty. The fetches would have gotten Molly to eat. That's about it. I'm not even sure you could say that Mab predicted that Harry would send the fetches after Molly. He barely thought of it himself.

IMO, the real Xanatos Gambit tour de force was by whoever masterminded the scheme in Turn Coat. If we think, as Harry did, that Cristos is working for the Black Council or Nemesis or whoever was behind it all, then it's an amazing bit of work. Between Injun Joe, Morgan and Harry they stop the plot to throw the White Council into civil war, send the skinwalker packing, beat the giant spiders, expose the traitor within the council, reveal a mountain of psychic manipulation. Any one of those things could have made a big win for the mysterious force behind the scenes. Yet they beat every bit of it. Then in the end, Cristos gets the empty seat on the senior council and the bad guys get a win anyway (assuming he's one of them). The baddies set up a dozen ways to win, including one that Dresden never saw coming and couldn't have done anything about even if he had. That was a masterful Xanatos Gambit.

[Lamech]

I'm not sure it is. The thing is, if Harry dies, Mab gets very little out of the events of Proven Guilty. The fetches would have gotten Molly to eat. That's about it. I'm not even sure you could say that Mab predicted that Harry would send the fetches after Molly. He barely thought of it himself.

IMO, the real Xanatos Gambit tour de force was by whoever masterminded the scheme in Turn Coat. If we think, as Harry did, that Cristos is working for the Black Council or Nemesis or whoever was behind it all, then it's an amazing bit of work. Between Injun Joe, Morgan and Harry they stop the plot to throw the White Council into civil war, send the skinwalker packing, beat the giant spiders, expose the traitor within the council, reveal a mountain of psychic manipulation. Any one of those things could have made a big win for the mysterious force behind the scenes. Yet they beat every bit of it. Then in the end, Cristos gets the empty seat on the senior council and the bad guys get a win anyway (assuming he's one of them). The baddies set up a dozen ways to win, including one that Dresden never saw coming and couldn't have done anything about even if he had. That was a masterful Xanatos Gambit.

Yeah, they got a vote on the Senior Council, but they don't trust the guy. **** they let the guy stand next to the suspected assassin Red Court Vampire next year, while they secreted themselves away. They have almost certainly formed some sort of voting bloc to lock the guy out of having any actual role in votes.

[Soras Teva Gee]

I think the engineering behind Cristos' elevation pales substantively because its increasingly evident to me the Council is simply... not relevant anymore.

More importantly though for my particular comment though, we're told outright and explicitly what went down in Turn Coat.

Proven Guilty might take a couple of times.

[123456789blaaa]

I think the engineering behind Cristos' elevation pales substantively because its increasingly evident to me the Council is simply... not relevant anymore.

More importantly though for my particular comment though, we're told outright and explicitly what went down in Turn Coat.

Proven Guilty might take a couple of times.

A couple of times to what?

[Mauve Shirt]

I'm not sure Jim would set up the White Council with Cristos and then abandon them because they're "not relevant". Everything that exists in the Dresdenverse is relevant. Lazy author, remember?
I mean you know we're going to see Carlos and Eb again if no one else.