Captain America: the Winter Soldier *SPOILERS*

[Karoht]

You know, now that I think so, there is something that is really bothering me out of the the movie, how could Widow track the source of the Project Insight source using a freaking MAC from an apple store! Seriously what the hell? Loved the scene in general, but that particular part did bug me a lot.

Because product placement gives you super powers in the movies.

Now I'm going to go looking for the red bull logo in the first captain america movie.

[MCerberus]

I saw the Jackson interview on The Daily Show and picked up that they're using a lot of practical effects instead of CGI. Is this true? because that would be just great.

[Athaniar]

Speaking of product placement, the one thing that stood out to me was that every car's a Chevy. I like to believe that's an important part of the HYDRA conspiracy somehow.

[Benthesquid]

Random thoughts, in no particular order.

"So in this scene, we need Fury to be shot to advance the plot and set up Cap's isolation from SHIELD."

"Right. One problem."

"What's that?"

"Fury's still being played by Samuel L. Jackson."

"Well crap. An elaborate action sequence it is."
***
They gave Sam an origin that was fairly logical, with still a nice nod to the comics continuity with some social work. Less complicated than his comics origin. "He's an athletic social worker with a trained hawk who was on this island Cap was trapped on. For reasons! No, wait, he's a gangster who Red Skull reality warped into having been a social worker. For other reasons! He can talk to birds, or maybe just the one bird, or maybe the bird's just well trained! Now he has wings, from Black Panther."

And much less confusing than Ultimate Falcon, who was an anthropologist investigating the use of psychoactive substances in shamanic rituals among tribes in the Amazon. Who also had a set of powered wings, and worked for SHIELD and was recruited to break into a Russian black facility to find/rescue the Vision, who was the herald of Galactus. Nothing about that wasn't awesome, but it suffered from being a minor part of a much bigger book.

But here, Falcon is a retired military Pararescue badass, who counsels his fellow veterans. Very nice, I thought.
***
So we've got fairly explicit set-ups for three films coming out of this. Natasha goes off to find her new purpose/deal with all of her secrets being dumped on Wikileaks. Nick Fury goes off to Europe to straight up murder some Hydras. Falcon and Cap go off to try and find the Winter Soldier, who's trying to recover his identity.
***
A refreshing lack of romance. Despite Natasha and Cap going on the run together and having to smooch to avoid suspicion, they build and maintain a fairly strong but entirely platonic friendship. Kudos to you, Hollywood (although some of my friends were disappointed they seem to have dropped the Natasha/Winter Soldier angle from the comics).
***
I like to imagine a bunch of HYDRA goons rolling up to assassinate Clint, and him just shooting them all, and then spending the rest of the movie trying to figure out what's happening. "Cap? Natasha? You want to tell me what's up with all of this? Fury? Coulson? Anyone?"

And he has bandages on his face, because Fraction.
***
Any clue who the valedictorian they mentioned in the "List of people we're totally gonna shoot the crap out of," was?

[Dienekes]

Random thoughts, in no particular order.

"So in this scene, we need Fury to be shot to advance the plot and set up Cap's isolation from SHIELD."

"Right. One problem."

"What's that?"

"Fury's still being played by Samuel L. Jackson."

"Well crap. An elaborate action sequence it is."

I think you're forgetting the amount of times Sammy J has been killed off like a bitch.

Anyway, just saw it. I thought that was great. I think more than any other movie this one shook up the status quo of the Marvel Movie Universe. And, while a lot of the overarching reveals were fairly predictable (anyone for a second think Pierce was a good guy? No?) it still had a few moves I didn't see coming. The scene where they wiped Bucky was well done, as was Cap's scene with Peggy. The action was also really well done, though I still prefer when the camera takes a step back so I can actually see all the fight instead of getting close and shaky. It didn't happen very often, but I always notice when it does.

I am, a little disappointed by Batroc. "Ze Leapair" is one of my favorite B list villains because of his ridiculous personality, and even though he's a merc, he's a merc with some morals who won't be apart of murder sprees. In this he was just a thug with military training, known for having high casualties. It's a minor detail, doesn't really alter my perception of the film in any way, since I don't think comic Batroc would ever translate well to the movie universe.

[The New Bruceski]

There's really only one thing I feel should never be spoiled: Watchmen - the twist is just beautiful and robbing someone of that is a crime.
Runner up is Sixth Sense (or as I like to call it, the movie inspired by Tanith Lee's far superior "Kill the dead")

Also The Usual Suspects.

As to this movie, holy crap. That was fun. My favorite bit was that part between the opening logo and the end credits. Some specific things of note/snark (mostly snark):

Spoiler

Show

--Last part first: I guess "miracle" is an m-word they ARE allowed to use. Am I the only one who started humming the Addams Family theme what with how strung out those two looked?
--It's a bit surreal to hear a quinjet loudspeaker say "Mister Rogers, please stand down."
--Strangest episode of How I Met Your Mother ever
--The showdown in the control room. "Who do I shoot? Where do I point my gun?" Where are you pointing your gun? Can we get nametags or something? Shirts versus skins?"

[Jayngfet]

Speaking of product placement, the one thing that stood out to me was that every car's a Chevy. I like to believe that's an important part of the HYDRA conspiracy somehow.

Ford has a deal with most real life police forces and supplies the bulk of actual police cars across multiple countries. Anyone imitating police officers would probably buy and paint over a bunch of Crown victorias. Somehow it's easy to imagine that out of convenience SHIELD would throw their vehicle needs in to the same company. I mean obviously there's actual product placement involved, much like the prominent gum sticks and whatnot, but you can at least justify them as adding to realism.

Note that they don't seem to have sole use of Quicksilver, since he's already also credited in X-men: Days of Future Past (different actor though).

Photos have been floating around of both suits and actors, and honestly neither has been selling me on it very well. Marvel's suit looks more dynamic but it's missing something. It's always kind of depressing that Cap gets to wear bright colors and Iron Man is in a suped up version of his iconic suit, but guys like Quicksilver and Hawkeye have to wear black and grey for some reason.

[The New Bruceski]

I can't believe I forgot my favorite easter egg! Fury's tombstone quotes Ezekiel 25:17, "And I will execute great vengeance upon them with furious rebukes; and they shall know that I am the LORD, when I shall lay my vengeance upon them."

Not only appropriate for the movie, but also a Pulp Fiction joke.

[Dragonexx]

Loved how they namedropped Dr. Strange as one of the people to snipe.

Apparently he's already in action doing whatever it is he does, and now shield/hydra wants him down (as if they could).

Also, the set up for avengers two with Hydra having Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver, along with Loki's scepter.

[ben-zayb]

Also, the set up for avengers two with Hydra having Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver, along with the mind gem holder.

Fixed it for you.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Ford has a deal with most real life police forces and supplies the bulk of actual police cars across multiple countries. Anyone imitating police officers would probably buy and paint over a bunch of Crown victorias. Somehow it's easy to imagine that out of convenience SHIELD would throw their vehicle needs in to the same company. I mean obviously there's actual product placement involved, much like the prominent gum sticks and whatnot, but you can at least justify them as adding to realism.



Photos have been floating around of both suits and actors, and honestly neither has been selling me on it very well. Marvel's suit looks more dynamic but it's missing something. It's always kind of depressing that Cap gets to wear bright colors and Iron Man is in a suped up version of his iconic suit, but guys like Quicksilver and Hawkeye have to wear black and grey for some reason.

At least Hawkeye is going to get his goofy eared mask for AoU.

Loved how they namedropped Dr. Strange as one of the people to snipe.

Apparently he's already in action doing whatever it is he does, and now shield/hydra wants him down (as if they could).

Also, the set up for avengers two with Hydra having Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver, along with Loki's scepter.

I don't remember, has Marvel confirmed a Doctor Strange Movie or is it just rumors still?

[Cheesegear]

I don't remember, has Marvel confirmed a Doctor Strange Movie or is it just rumors still?

They have a script - or at least a direction that they want - and they're looking for a Director right now, frontrunners are...

This guy, this guy and this guy.

[SaintRidley]

Well that was awesome. And there's apparently a high school valedictorian in my area who would pose a threat to Hydra. The whole theatre burst into laughter upon hearing that.

[Dusk Eclipse]

They have a script - or at least a direction that they want - and they're looking for a Director right now, frontrunners are...

This guy, this guy and this guy.

Ok, now I'm rooting for Scott Derrickson.

[ben-zayb]

I'm actually quite surprised with how Marvel Studios handled their universe. The future plot is really shaping up nicely for that Avengers 3 movie. I think they also said in one interview that there will also be an infinity gem somewhere in the Guardians movie, and I'm expecting the same for the sorcerer supreme.

With Strange, any ideas on how they are gonna handle magic? If I recall, Asgard is refluffed as a sufficiently hi-tech world so they dodged that bullet.

[Cheesegear]

With Strange, any ideas on how they are gonna handle magic?

Probably the same way they handle it with Scarlet Witch.
Also, Strange is also a somewhat talented neurosurgeon. That may or may not tie into it somehow.

[Jayngfet]

I'm actually quite surprised with how Marvel Studios handled their universe. The future plot is really shaping up nicely for that Avengers 3 movie. I think they also said in one interview that there will also be an infinity gem somewhere in the Guardians movie, and I'm expecting the same for the sorcerer supreme.

With Strange, any ideas on how they are gonna handle magic? If I recall, Asgard is refluffed as a sufficiently hi-tech world so they dodged that bullet.

No idea, but just because it's all "science" doesn't mean it's not basically magic. Even if it's technically science, everything going on in Asgard is basically magic in all but name. You just have to take it a few steps further to get to something more in line with magic.

[Gamerlord]

Just came back from watching it. Pretty good all around, except for the Winter Soldier himself. Hydra could probably have created some kind of cardboard-based robot and it would have had the same depth and character of that guy. Never really read the comics, so I don't know if that version is also all Broody McQuiet, but hopefully he'll be more interesting in any future film that gives him more screen-time that isn't a fight scene.

[ben-zayb]

No idea, but just because it's all "science" doesn't mean it's not basically magic. Even if it's technically science, everything going on in Asgard is basically magic in all but name. You just have to take it a few steps further to get to something more in line with magic.

No, see, the point they're trying to make was for primitive people like us, Asgardian technology can only be explained by "A Wizard did it" (ergo, magic). So of course, the way we see it, it's basically magic in all but name. On the other hand, they're still yet to explain how the Infinity Stones work (assuming the IG wasn't originally Asgardian tech), in case Scarlet Witch or Strange works off those as power sources.

[Legato Endless]

Okay. To echo the collective group responsive, it's a zippy little movie. I quite enjoyed it. Lots of action, some great choreography, and less than normal shaky cam, which is a step in the right direction. There's a lot of elements in play, it doesn't keep track of them particularly well, but all the things that need to work do. The Hydra Plan is lovely in that it doesn't even need to actually work effectively, it's dangerous just because Hydra believes it will and the carnage they'll wreck. Fury's scene with the car was particularly well done. Redford gives a good if transparent performance, Evans is great as usual, and all the cameos are nice.

So, my few quibbles. The biggest one being, the political thriller aspect. The film has a chance to make a statement, which is marred by the bad guys literally all being secret nazis. The Hydra conspiracy of shield works fine, but that everyone else going along with it was also, gives a neat excuse to buck a far messier question. The walking political caricature would have worked fantastically as a collaborator, not a true believer. The other slightly disappointing part being the nonentity Bucky is for much of the film. He's great when he's on, but as previously mentioned, he's fairly minor in the grand scheme. It's a bit disappointing, though it's not a flaw so much as missed opportunity. Agent 13 as well, we get very little out of. Hopefully that will be fleshed out in the future. I'm also a bit conflicted about Cap's fight with the french commando. Dropping the shield to "fight fair" is a bit weird. Cap's an idealistic solider, not a warrior out for an honorable dual. Risking the mission, or even just himself, just to prove a point feels out of place for someone so selfless. That said, he handily drops the commando once he gets his other hand free, so it could be argued as a pragmatic decision when the fight was going somewhat ambiguously before.

This got a lot of pieces moving. It's certainly the strongest film of the phase 2 era.

[shadow_archmagi]

Yeah, I feel like on one hand, if the film is named "The Winter Soldier" it should revolve more around the winter soldier. (Although, of course, naming it "Everyone Is Hydra and They've Got Super Aircraft Carriers" might've had consequences of its own)

On the other hand, I think it's fun that the movie decided to not actually resolve anything with Bucky. Too often Hollywood feels compelled to wrap everything up in 30 minutes; this suggests that Bucks was only on part 1 of a longer journey.

[SeeDarkly_X]

Just a silly realization after seeing the Maximoffs... Is Marvel Studios even allowed to touch X-men characters? Pretty sure Columbia Pictures still got them by the balls on that one.
Funny how some of MU's front and center in the comics biz (Spider-Man, Deadpool, and X-MenWolverine) aren't even touchable in MCU.

I mean absolutely no offense intended to anyone at all.... but a lot of responses to this are either just a little off the mark or riddled with bits of misinformation/misunderstanding.
Here's some clarification. Might be long:

Long ago, Marvel offered up specific rights to other movie companies BEFORE the MCU was even a thought. Rights to the X-men, and any reference to "mutants" are owned by FOX (as are the Fantastic Four and related characters.)
HOWEVER, rights to the specific characters of Scarlet Witch & Quicksilver are NOT solely owned by FOX and are considered a "shared property."

What this means for the movies?
The MCU is free to use the Maximoff twins but may not make mention of them as "mutants" nor can they reveal Magneto as their father.
{If you know your Avengers history, this really is no big deal. Because while yes, both originated as members of Magneto's Brotherhood in the pages of the X-men (and for only 3 or 4 issues in the title's first year before moving to the Avengers,) they had NO IDEA he was their father until they had been prominent with the Avengers for 19 years after they were introduced. Magneto was ALSO unaware of their relation for as long.}
FOX is free to use the characters both as mutants and Magneto's children, but may not mention the Avengers.

What has occurred because of this?
Marvel has tried to regain all film property rights. Most have not been regained. (They got Daredevil, Elektra, Ghost Rider, Blade, & Punisher and all related characters back either because of reversion or negotiations.)
Later, Joss Whedon announced the twins would be a part of Avengers 2. Within a week (IIRC) of that announcement, Bryan Singer announced that Quicksilver would be part of an action sequence in Days of Future Past (later revealed that it had literally been written in after Whedon's announcement.)
So it's clear that FOX wanted to maintain a grip on the rights of those characters before "non-usage" became a defense Marvel could use to re-acquire sole rights. Kind of an ugly reactionary move that serves to confuse the audience and does little to advance a story, but whatever, it's their right and the X-men films have been mostly solid over-all.

Unless DOFP and the next X-films that have been planned (I believe APOCALYPSE is in the making) completely bomb, there really isn't any hope of Marvel regaining those rights any time soon.
The same is true of the Spider-Man rights owned by Sony.

[Dienekes]

Just came back from watching it. Pretty good all around, except for the Winter Soldier himself. Hydra could probably have created some kind of cardboard-based robot and it would have had the same depth and character of that guy. Never really read the comics, so I don't know if that version is also all Broody McQuiet, but hopefully he'll be more interesting in any future film that gives him more screen-time that isn't a fight scene.

The Winter Soldier, is really just a gun. His only interesting aspect is his past relationship with Rogers, which I think they were focusing on. Evans I thought did a good job acting against a character, who by nature pretty much has to be a blank slate.

That said, I think he did have a seen or two that were well done just focusing around Bucky. His debriefing scene was particularly good for the confusion and pain he conveyed. His last fight with Cap was also pretty, good, but not as interesting.

So, my few quibbles. The biggest one being, the political thriller aspect. The film has a chance to make a statement, which is marred by the bad guys literally all being secret nazis. The Hydra conspiracy of shield works fine, but that everyone else going along with it was also, gives a neat excuse to buck a far messier question. The walking political caricature would have worked fantastically as a collaborator, not a true believer.

I think the statement was made. Even if the villains were HYDRA, the social commentary aspects were far more focused on the interaction between Rogers and Fury. I can't help but think the fact that it was deemed important to have all of SHIELD intelligence posted on the internet and the subsequent abandonment of SHIELD entirely was anything other than a very knowing political message.

[Eldan]

Well, that was considerably more bearable than the snorefest that was the first movie. Rogers himself is still as annoying as ever (seriously, who talks like that. He sounds like an alien robot who ate a book of inspirational phrases for breakfast), but at least now there are actually interesting characters for him to play straight man to and considerably more Nick Fury.

The good:
Fury, Falcon, Romanova all kick ass.
As opposed to the last one, this one feels as if the action actually serves a purpose and there are some stakes, instead of a series of increasingly bigger explosions for no reason.
Tons of funny lines. Biggest laugh was gotten by "I'm Swiss", but I guess that's just the location. "Zola" is such a stereotypically Swiss name, too
Special credit to Nick Fury's headstone.

The bad:
Rogers, still. Damn is he ever self-righteous and holier-than-thou.
The movie missed some beat. There were about twenty people in the cinema other than me and some friends. When the Capt'n fell out of the helicarrier to slow, sad piano music and crashing into the water accompanied by heavenly beams of light, everyone was either giggling awkwardly or just laughing loudly, it was so overdone.
Bucky. When he took of the mask, I heard at least three people saying "Who's that?" and one guy asking his girlfriend "should we know him"? Needed more exposition.
More "America is so awesome" propaganda, but much less annoying this time. Still, I was half expecting for someone to just turn to the camera and read us a moral about drugs or bullying.

The really bad:
I guess Captain America (**** Yeah!) can't fight other Americans. The only bad guys bad enough for him to fight are Nazis. What a giant disappointment that reveal was, I was hoping for actually corrupt politicians and at least a semblance of a debate. Maybe next time, he can fight faceless aliens or robots.


Still, I Think overall I was entertained, if annoyed at the third-act reveal.

[Legato Endless]

I'm going to disagree fervently on the Bucky presentation. Bucky being the winter soldier was an open secret to anywhere it was discussed on the internet. Even if you didn't know comic book lore, you only needed minor genre savvy to guess he was. All the film asks is that you vaguely remember the first film. Even if you didn't remember or had seen the first film, you still get tons of info about who Bucky is. The historical display recounts his role in world war one. The flashback establishes his relationship with Cap. The brainwashing scene and Zola memory tells us how he got here.

Expository dialogue would have been less elegant and unrealistic. Cap telling the camera, oh noes! Tis my presumed friend from world war 2 who was my bestest bud and yet is here now and unaged, how strange is that? I remember when we fought the red skull, and how he was the only one who got girls until I got taller.

It's always immersion breaking to me when people carefully reexplain to each other things they already know. I am very biased on this, but I prefer losing some people who couldn't keep track of details than being spoon fed everything in the story.

[Eldan]

Thing is, I kept away from spoilers too and I didn't know. Heck, when he took the mask off, I didn't connect him to Bucky at all. Didn't get a good look at him in the few scenes when he showed up earlier and didn't recognize the actor. He looked quite different (and really generic and forgetable as Bucky).

[Athaniar]

Re: Asgard and magic, at least both Loki and Lorelei (on AoS) have been called magic-users by other Asgardians. Thor in his first film also explained it by saying that magic and technology are one and the same in Asgard, not that what humans see as magic is actually tech.

[Dienekes]

The really bad:
I guess Captain America (**** Yeah!) can't fight other Americans. The only bad guys bad enough for him to fight are Nazis. What a giant disappointment that reveal was, I was hoping for actually corrupt politicians and at least a semblance of a debate. Maybe next time, he can fight faceless aliens or robots.

Except for Zola, I'm pretty sure every HYDRA member they fought was American. Though, you are right about one thing. Next time, he's going to be fighting robots.

Also, I have to agree with Legato. He was an important character in the first movie. 10 minutes into this movie that had a scene that showed him and literally went through all the bullet points you needed to know. And at the reveal Cap calls out his name and then explains again who he is. If you can't figure it out, I literally don't know what else to say. Other than trying to insert the name Bucky into 3 or so more scenes where it really wouldn't fit.

[Eldan]

Nono, I got it once the Captain said his name. But I didn't recognize his face. Also don't remember him from the first movie, but I guess there's a lot of things i don't remember from the first.

[erikun]

Query: At the beginning, when Fury finds out the space flashdrive is locked, what's going on there? Is that Zola having locked the drive using Nick's command codes, or is Nick into some weird "compartmentalization" thing, possibly involving time travel, so he can lock the drive from himself after realizing it'll be a problem?

I'm fairly certain that it was part of a setup.

This is presumably why Jasper Sitwell (bald guy with glasses) was the one SHIELD agent on board the ship as a hostage at the beginning, and why it was later revealed that he was a HYDRA agent. HYDRA could encrypt the data while on the ship, and encode it with the authorization of "Nick Fury". As such, they could just reveal that Nick Fury had manipulated things to get the data (he sent the pirates to take over the ship, then sent his own SHIELD agents as cover to get the data). With Nick Fury organizating the mission and Nick Fury encrypting the data, they could just blame Nick Fury for whatever was going wrong after he was dead.

Fury clearly knew something was wrong once he found the file encrypted by himself, without his authorization to decrypt it. It was why he tried to put Project Insight on hold.