**league_of_legends_thread_62: show_running_gag_title("The Wins Of Winthur");

**EternalMelon** · 2014-10-15, 10:58 AM (ISO 8601)

**league_of_legends_thread_62: show_running_gag_title("The Wins Of Winthur");

In memorial of **Kog'Maw, may he nomm in peace.

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PREVIOUS THREADS
Behold the discussions of the past!

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**EternalMelon** · 2014-10-15, 11:00 AM (ISO 8601)

Compromise!

I can gladly change the title if needed, and if there is any hostly duties to be done, just shout at me. Especially over mumble.

**Winthur** · 2014-10-15, 11:05 AM (ISO 8601)

so im trying for the last couple months to be as unlikable as possible while making a point on how my deterioriating mechanics cause me serious fledgling and you guys do this

you guys are impossible :|

thanks

**Dusk Eclipse** · 2014-10-15, 11:08 AM (ISO 8601)

Don't mind me, just posting to subscribe (yes I know it can be done without subscribing, but meh)

**thracian** · 2014-10-15, 11:16 AM (ISO 8601)

Wasn't page 50, thread is stupid.

**Olinser** · 2014-10-15, 11:29 AM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by thracian

Wasn't page 50, thread is stupid.

**Math_Mage** · 2014-10-15, 11:46 AM (ISO 8601)

title is win
amazing is not
neither is dexter
the power-shuffler has kicked into high gear again
prepare for the return of nien
and bigfatlp support
and seraph jungle
you know it's happening

**Antonok** · 2014-10-15, 12:22 PM (ISO 8601)

grabbing this for the checkmark. You can ignore it or enjoy some of these hamster gifs.

Spoiler: Hamster fun

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**Qwertystop** · 2014-10-15, 12:44 PM (ISO 8601)

I like the compromise. Also, I'm glad starting with an asterisk didn't break anything - I wonder if starting a post title with a backslash or something would do it?

**Joran** · 2014-10-15, 01:07 PM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Math_Mage

title is win
amazing is not
neither is dexter
the power-shuffler has kicked into high gear again
prepare for the return of nien
and bigfatlp support
and seraph jungle
you know it's happening

This off-season is going to bananas, especially if the rumors of OGN going to only one team per organization prove true. kaKAO and Rookie already didn't renew their contracts with KT Arrows and are pursuing opportunities in China, so there's going to be so much flux in the Korean scene.

**heronbpv** · 2014-10-15, 02:13 PM (ISO 8601)

Would be nice to see Amazing back to EULCS. SK could invite him and then kick svenskeren for a risk-free season.
Than add an invite to alex ich and bam, perfect! \o/

**SanguisAevum** · 2014-10-15, 02:45 PM (ISO 8601)

Someone switch me from NA to EUW in OP please?

Also... Trying to learn Zed's ultimate combo. My fingers aren't fast enough ^^

**Joran** · 2014-10-15, 02:49 PM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by heronbpv

Would be nice to see Amazing back to EULCS. SK could invite him and then kick svenskeren for a risk-free season.
Than add an invite to alex ich and bam, perfect! \o/

Alex Ich already has a team; he's formed a team with Impal3r, Kev1n, Creaton, and Kasing. One of their landing spots is supposedly Millennium.

**Forum Explorer** · 2014-10-15, 02:52 PM (ISO 8601)

So is anyone excited for the finals, or is the consensus is that it will be a complete stomp by Samsung White?

**Ionbound** · 2014-10-15, 02:53 PM (ISO 8601)

Post to subscribe and get a nice little green checkmark.

**thracian** · 2014-10-15, 02:57 PM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Forum Explorer

So is anyone excited for the finals, or is the consensus is that it will be a complete stomp by Samsung White?

General consensus is definitely on the side of a total one-sided stomp.

**heronbpv** · 2014-10-15, 03:01 PM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Joran

Alex Ich already has a team; he's formed a team with Impal3r, Kev1n, Creaton, and Kasing. One of their landing spots is supposedly Millennium.

Hah, considering that my sources of informations are either you guys or s@20, and the later "this week on e-sports" column is weekly, no wonder I didn't knew about that.
So, this means that Kerp, kottenx and Jreeee are out?

@Forum Explorer:
thracian sums it up nicely. Seems like Royal is destined to get stomped by the korean team of year at every final... xD

Also, yes, I'm excited to see just how it will be!

**Forrestfire** · 2014-10-15, 03:02 PM (ISO 8601)

I'm hoping we get five good games, but I expect a stomp.

**Joran** · 2014-10-15, 03:08 PM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by heronbpv

Hah, considering that my sources of informations are either you guys or s@20, and the later "this week on e-sports" column is weekly, no wonder I didn't knew about that.
So, this means that Kerp, kottenx and Jreeee are out?

My eSports news comes from Reddit, so we knew that Kerp had already left (https://twitter.com/Kerpx/status/519872188611313666).

Reddit is usually on top of breaking news and rumors, like Evil Geniuses coming over to the States.

I'm less excited about Worlds this year because of the time zone issues. I haven't been able to watch any of the games live, so I generally know the results before I watch the games. Worlds is going to start at 2 AM, which is in that awkward place of being too early to wake up for and too late to stay up for. I have two kids now so I can't just destroy my entire sleep cycle anymore.

I did watch the entire Cloud 9 series, which was awesome and heartbreaking at the same time.

**Forum Explorer** · 2014-10-15, 03:30 PM (ISO 8601)

Personally I'm rooting for Royal Club (simply because they are the underdogs) but if they lose I kinda want it to be a 3-0 stomp.

On a different note how well would this comp do against a poke comp?

AP or Mixed damage Nidalee (top)
Kayle (Mid)
Sona, or Soraka (support)
Hyper carry adc (so Twitch, Kog'Maw, Trist)
Tanky Jungler (I can't think of a specific good one here)

**ex cathedra** · 2014-10-15, 03:57 PM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Forum Explorer

On a different note how well would this comp do against a poke comp?

AP or Mixed damage Nidalee (top)
Kayle (Mid)
Sona, or Soraka (support)
Hyper carry adc (so Twitch, Kog'Maw, Trist)
Tanky Jungler (I can't think of a specific good one here)

really poorly.
more broadly speaking, that sort of comp vs comp analysis is rarely even remotely relevant to the average user's in-game experience.

**TFT** · 2014-10-15, 03:59 PM (ISO 8601)

I've heard a variety of perspectives on it but I think it's going to be 3-1 White over Royal club, with 1 stomp from white, 2 close wins for white, and one win for RC because corn gets a champ he's strong on and Uzi carries. I wouldn't be surprised to see 3-2 or 3-0 either White either depending on how the matches go.

EDIT: I'll tackle the comp question since I'm stuck at home anyways being sick.

Here's the suggested comp:

AP or Mixed damage Nidalee (top)
Kayle (Mid)
Sona, or Soraka (support)
Hyper carry adc (so Twitch, Kog'Maw, Trist)
Tanky Jungler (I can't think of a specific good one here)

Now, there are a few ways to cause poke comps issues:
1. Have a stronger poke comp
2. Have a hard engage comp so they can't set up poke.
3. Have a split push set up for whenever they start sieging with their poke.

The issue with 3 is that setting up the split push before the poke comp takes effect is oftentimes too hard, and requires the 4 man comp to be able to survive long enough on their own against the poke comp which is tough, so I don't usually see that as a viable option, personally.(Despite having seen people do well with it)

So let's see what the comp gives:

Nidalee - Going to go with AP here since it's just better. Gives high amounts of poke and sustain, and more importantly takes away the option from the enemy poke comp to take nid. Disadvantage is that she doesn't do as well if your team hard engages
Kayle - Strong sustain, but no poke or hard engage. Can keep an engagement going or support a hard engage, but not much more.

So with those 2 as options you are sticking with you're definitely leaning toward the sustain poke route, with an option of weaker hard engage but an ability to heal up to set up stronger engages. For the variable ones:

Sona - Pros - Brings sustain, harder engage with the aoe speedbuff, and either secondary or primary engage with the ult. issue being...
Cons - She's a little bit vulnerable in laning, especially depending on what adc you match her up with.
vs Soraka - Pros - High amount of sustain with her heal spam, potential for self heal, and some poke with her new q
Cons - despite having sustain it's mostly for the rest of her team and leaves her vulnerable, and tends to be weaker outside of laning then most supports. Her silence/snare makes up for it but in a poke situation she's rarely going to get that off.
I think out of the two, sona is definitely better then soraka for a poke comp to out poke a poke comp.

Twitch - Pros - brings the hard engage noise, especially with invisibility. Synergizes with nid well for the extra AS and kayle for extra kiting for damage.
Cons - requires your adc to be really good on positioning because this makes twitch the key to the comp. Doesn't have poke either, making your poke most likely weaker then theirs.
Note - I'd pair twitch with sona because they have strong lane bully potential and both bring in hard engage. Definitely want a hard engage jungle with this combo. I'd look into nami if you plan on playing twitch with nid and kayle for the extra sustain and secondary engage as well.
Kog'maw - Pros - Brings poke and longer ranged damage.
Cons - vulnerable to poke even with kayle ult and high amounts of sustain.
If you want your comp to be heavily poke based I'd take him and a poke/disengage jungler. Doesn't matter between sona or soraka, since sona's ult can be used as disengage and soraka brings a lot of sustain to the poke fight.
Trist - Pros - Long range for lategame, brings some early game pressure,
Cons - Doesn't have hard engage or poke.
I wouldn't recommend trist unless your plan is to literally sit at towers and wait for the enemy to make mistakes or have trist hit hypercarry status. Kogmaw for the outpoke route, twitch for the hard engage.

For jungle, I'll give suggestions based of either going to out poke route or hard engage route:

Poke:
Kha. He has a high amount of poke and his slow counts as disengage as well.
Lee. He actually makes both lists. His q can poke pretty well, he has w to add shields to mitigate poke. He also brings in all in that your comp most likely doesn't have which is a useful tool either way.

Hard engage: (This list is longer, but with more offmeta picks)
Meta:
Rengar. The double invis hard engage combo has been seen before in competitive play, and with good reason. Usually paired with an orianna in competitive play, even with kayle and nid and sona it should still get the job of forcing a fight done.
Lee. Pair with twitch and sona or nami you have enough hard engage tools for kayle to follow up with.
J4. King of aoe hard engages. Longest range engage on the map, and has kayle ult if he goes too deep.
Vi. King of single target hard engage. Actually pairs pretty well with AP nid since it gives her a reliable spear target to start her combo.

List of offmeta junglers that can also work for a hard engage:
Pantheon, Fiddlesticks, Amumu, Sejuani, Wukong.

Hopefully that helped.

**heronbpv** · 2014-10-15, 04:08 PM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by TFT

I've heard a variety of perspectives on it but I think it's going to be 3-1 White over Royal club, with 1 stomp from white, 2 close wins for white, and one win for RC because corn gets a champ he's strong on and Uzi carries. I wouldn't be surprised to see 3-2 or 3-0 either White either depending on how the matches go.

From what I have seen, which means mainly the worlds games, Imp and Uzi are kinda the aggressive ADC type, so possibly this lane will be decided by real outplay (support factor included), bar jungle interference.
The problem I see with Royal is that the other lanes doesn't have that same possibility of winning, unless InSec does an InSec, but then again, White has Dandy to answer that...

**Math_Mage** · 2014-10-15, 04:17 PM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Forum Explorer

Personally I'm rooting for Royal Club (simply because they are the underdogs) but if they lose I kinda want it to be a 3-0 stomp.

On a different note how well would this comp do against a poke comp?

AP or Mixed damage Nidalee (top)
Kayle (Mid)
Sona, or Soraka (support)
Hyper carry adc (so Twitch, Kog'Maw, Trist)
Tanky Jungler (I can't think of a specific good one here)

Middling waveclear...but no initiation or CC-chaining besides Sona flash-ult into *jungler CC* once every 5 minutes, no insulation for the hypercarry against poke, and your own poke isn't that good. You'd get stomped unless you stomped lanes, which is possible since you picked some lane bullies, but you'd need your jungler to be totally on point.

Random suggestions off the top of my head, no champion repeats, YMMV:
Lulu Orianna Tristana Alistar ~~Jarvan~~ Rengar
Maokai Elise Thresh Fizz Corki
Kayle Twitch Yasuo Lee Braum
Vi TF Jax Lucian Leona

Of course, aether (who shall forever be known as aether) is right that this is largely irrelevant to most players.

EDIT: I keep wanting to tweak the comps.

**TFT** · 2014-10-15, 04:39 PM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Math_Mage

Middling waveclear...but no initiation or CC-chaining besides Sona flash-ult into *jungler CC* once every 5 minutes, no insulation for the hypercarry against poke, and your own poke isn't that good. You'd get stomped unless you stomped lanes, which is possible since you picked some lane bullies, but you'd need your jungler to be totally on point.

Random suggestions off the top of my head, no champion repeats, YMMV:
Lulu Orianna Tristana Alistar ~~Jarvan~~ Rengar
Maokai Elise Thresh Fizz Corki
Kayle Twitch Yasuo Lee Braum
Vi TF Jax Lucian Leona

Of course, aether (who shall forever be known as aether) is right that this is largely irrelevant to most players.

EDIT: I keep wanting to tweak the comps.

Can't believe you didn't suggest the competitive play comp of Orianna, twitch, ali, rengar, kayle as the first suggestion of an alternative. So good at shutting down poke comps through hard engage before they can start.

EDIT: I also attempted to analyze the comp a bit more in depth in a edit a couple of posts above, so in case someone missed that I'd check back for it.

**Math_Mage** · 2014-10-15, 04:52 PM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by TFT

Can't believe you didn't suggest the competitive play comp of Orianna, twitch, ali, rengar, kayle as the first suggestion of an alternative. So good at shutting down poke comps through hard engage before they can start.

EDIT: I also attempted to analyze the comp a bit more in depth in a edit a couple of posts above, so in case someone missed that I'd check back for it.

Hmmmph. I'm intellectualizing by the seat of my pants here. But I did have those champs in my comps.

EDIT: By the by, isn't your sig, like, way out of date?

**TFT** · 2014-10-15, 05:08 PM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Math_Mage

Hmmmph. I'm intellectualizing by the seat of my pants here. But I did have those champs in my comps.

EDIT: By the by, isn't your sig, like, way out of date?

I never said you weren't, I was just surprised because I think that's been the most effective comp against poke in a while. (Before being ahri vi combo with strong bot and top lane because that combo was ridiculous at hard engage).

AND WHAT OUT OF DATE SIG, I DON'T SEE ANY OUT OF DATE SIG HERE.

**Winthur** · 2014-10-15, 05:17 PM (ISO 8601)

Just wanted to chime in with the opinion that there's no point to running Sona, ever, because she's bad outside of ARAM (seriously, worst rework ever*), and that Nami is much better not only on the kit-to-kit and stats-to-stats basis, but also as a part of a poke comp. Tidal Wave #1 disengage that can double as engage with bubbles.

And yes, aether has it right that the amount of coordination people tend to have, even at mid-high levels (so, Plat, low Dia) doesn't warrant heavy pokecomps, those require coordination on top of good mechanics. Someone has to be able to keep the splitpush going and 1v1 others and not completely lose lanes and then you need enough game sense to know how to make things work.

An anti-poke teamcomp is usually just decisive hard engage and winning vision control.

*not counting the "blatant nerf" ones.

**ex cathedra** · 2014-10-15, 05:33 PM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Math_Mage

EDIT: By the by, isn't your sig, like, way out of date?

gurl that sig was dated the moment he added

**Forum Explorer** · 2014-10-15, 05:54 PM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by TFT

I've heard a variety of perspectives on it but I think it's going to be 3-1 White over Royal club, with 1 stomp from white, 2 close wins for white, and one win for RC because corn gets a champ he's strong on and Uzi carries. I wouldn't be surprised to see 3-2 or 3-0 either White either depending on how the matches go.

EDIT: I'll tackle the comp question since I'm stuck at home anyways being sick.

Here's the suggested comp:

AP or Mixed damage Nidalee (top)
Kayle (Mid)
Sona, or Soraka (support)
Hyper carry adc (so Twitch, Kog'Maw, Trist)
Tanky Jungler (I can't think of a specific good one here)

Now, there are a few ways to cause poke comps issues:
1. Have a stronger poke comp
2. Have a hard engage comp so they can't set up poke.
3. Have a split push set up for whenever they start sieging with their poke.

The issue with 3 is that setting up the split push before the poke comp takes effect is oftentimes too hard, and requires the 4 man comp to be able to survive long enough on their own against the poke comp which is tough, so I don't usually see that as a viable option, personally.(Despite having seen people do well with it)

So let's see what the comp gives:

Nidalee - Going to go with AP here since it's just better. Gives high amounts of poke and sustain, and more importantly takes away the option from the enemy poke comp to take nid. Disadvantage is that she doesn't do as well if your team hard engages
Kayle - Strong sustain, but no poke or hard engage. Can keep an engagement going or support a hard engage, but not much more.

So with those 2 as options you are sticking with you're definitely leaning toward the sustain poke route, with an option of weaker hard engage but an ability to heal up to set up stronger engages. For the variable ones:

Sona - Pros - Brings sustain, harder engage with the aoe speedbuff, and either secondary or primary engage with the ult. issue being...
Cons - She's a little bit vulnerable in laning, especially depending on what adc you match her up with.
vs Soraka - Pros - High amount of sustain with her heal spam, potential for self heal, and some poke with her new q
Cons - despite having sustain it's mostly for the rest of her team and leaves her vulnerable, and tends to be weaker outside of laning then most supports. Her silence/snare makes up for it but in a poke situation she's rarely going to get that off.
I think out of the two, sona is definitely better then soraka for a poke comp to out poke a poke comp.

Twitch - Pros - brings the hard engage noise, especially with invisibility. Synergizes with nid well for the extra AS and kayle for extra kiting for damage.
Cons - requires your adc to be really good on positioning because this makes twitch the key to the comp. Doesn't have poke either, making your poke most likely weaker then theirs.
Note - I'd pair twitch with sona because they have strong lane bully potential and both bring in hard engage. Definitely want a hard engage jungle with this combo. I'd look into nami if you plan on playing twitch with nid and kayle for the extra sustain and secondary engage as well.
Kog'maw - Pros - Brings poke and longer ranged damage.
Cons - vulnerable to poke even with kayle ult and high amounts of sustain.
If you want your comp to be heavily poke based I'd take him and a poke/disengage jungler. Doesn't matter between sona or soraka, since sona's ult can be used as disengage and soraka brings a lot of sustain to the poke fight.
Trist - Pros - Long range for lategame, brings some early game pressure,
Cons - Doesn't have hard engage or poke.
I wouldn't recommend trist unless your plan is to literally sit at towers and wait for the enemy to make mistakes or have trist hit hypercarry status. Kogmaw for the outpoke route, twitch for the hard engage.

For jungle, I'll give suggestions based of either going to out poke route or hard engage route:

Poke:
Kha. He has a high amount of poke and his slow counts as disengage as well.
Lee. He actually makes both lists. His q can poke pretty well, he has w to add shields to mitigate poke. He also brings in all in that your comp most likely doesn't have which is a useful tool either way.

Hard engage: (This list is longer, but with more offmeta picks)
Meta:
Rengar. The double invis hard engage combo has been seen before in competitive play, and with good reason. Usually paired with an orianna in competitive play, even with kayle and nid and sona it should still get the job of forcing a fight done.
Lee. Pair with twitch and sona or nami you have enough hard engage tools for kayle to follow up with.
J4. King of aoe hard engages. Longest range engage on the map, and has kayle ult if he goes too deep.
Vi. King of single target hard engage. Actually pairs pretty well with AP nid since it gives her a reliable spear target to start her combo.

List of offmeta junglers that can also work for a hard engage:
Pantheon, Fiddlesticks, Amumu, Sejuani, Wukong.

Hopefully that helped.

That helps a lot, thanks!

Originally Posted by ex cathedra

really poorly.
more broadly speaking, that sort of comp vs comp analysis is rarely even remotely relevant to the average user's in-game experience.

It's kinda theory crafting for me. It's not practical, but I think it helps me realize which strategies don't work, which do, and why they work.

It is admittedly kinda silly, like thinking of theoretical all Yordle Comps and how well they would do.

Originally Posted by Winthur

Just wanted to chime in with the opinion that there's no point to running Sona, ever, because she's bad outside of ARAM (seriously, worst rework ever*), and that Nami is much better not only on the kit-to-kit and stats-to-stats basis, but also as a part of a poke comp. Tidal Wave #1 disengage that can double as engage with bubbles.

And yes, aether has it right that the amount of coordination people tend to have, even at mid-high levels (so, Plat, low Dia) doesn't warrant heavy pokecomps, those require coordination on top of good mechanics. Someone has to be able to keep the splitpush going and 1v1 others and not completely lose lanes and then you need enough game sense to know how to make things work.

An anti-poke teamcomp is usually just decisive hard engage and winning vision control.

*not counting the "blatant nerf" ones.

I have to admit, I completely forgot about Nami. My bad on that one.

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