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2015-06-12, 02:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2006
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- Canada
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Re: Werewolf Central X: Important WW information goes here - READ OPENING POSTS!
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2015-06-12, 02:38 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2008
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- Here
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Re: Werewolf Central X: Important WW information goes here - READ OPENING POSTS!
So, I think I am missing some kind of context for this argument, but I haven't seen any damned if you do, damned if you don't arguments unless you are talking about my posts. And I really wasn't going for that kind of thing at all. I just gave my read on the way an argument was stated, and gave my honest opinion on what I thought the phrasing meant. There are some players that will intentionally make emotional appeals in their posts to get players to be less suspicious of them, and if I can't even attempt to call someone out on doing that because I might offend someone I feel like I'm missing out on a part of the strategy some people use.
Last edited by TFT; 2015-06-12 at 02:39 PM.
Thanks goes to Vampire Pumpkin for my awesome avatar!
Formerly known as The Fiery Tower Formerly known as Catseye2121.
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2015-06-12, 02:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2010
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Re: Werewolf Central X: Important WW information goes here - READ OPENING POSTS!
Pffffft. I see what you did there.
Though yeah, whether it was your intent to or not, I do think that's what you did. At the very least that's how it would look from my perspective and it clearly did to Luizeu as well. I guess you could avoid the issue by not saying things like "overly defensive" and actually use the more clear language you just did now? At the very least someone can make an argument against being accused (correctly or not) of using an emotional appeal, which should ease the frustration issue.
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2015-06-12, 02:56 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2008
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- Here
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Re: Werewolf Central X: Important WW information goes here - READ OPENING POSTS!
Sometimes, the best way to prove a point is by example.
Well, I did attempt to clarify it in the followup post I did. It's just that my definition of overdefensiveness is generally intentionally adding emotional appeal into the arguments or phrasing an argument a certain way so that it tries to deflect suspicion. The issue, it seems, is when it's not an intentional emotional appeal but rather a person's natural posting pattern, because they end up potentially getting offended or seeing it as unfair, which I can understand on some level.
And if someone unintentionally uses emotional appeals a lot, I would hope the playerbase that does do that type of thing would adjust. For example, if I see you use one, I'm less likely to assume it's an intentional deflection but rather part of your natural posting pattern. It's just hard to keep track of every player who I've ever played werewolf with in that manner.
EDIT: Part of it is I think that when we have discussed this type of thing in the past, it's been hard to because people don't tend to think in terms of Pathos, Logos, and Ethos in arguments and I know we haven't discussed it much at all about it that way on this forum. Having clearer language helps.
EDIT 2: Added links to the edit for fun.Last edited by TFT; 2015-06-12 at 03:07 PM.
Thanks goes to Vampire Pumpkin for my awesome avatar!
Formerly known as The Fiery Tower Formerly known as Catseye2121.
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2015-06-12, 02:59 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2015
Re: Werewolf Central X: Important WW information goes here - READ OPENING POSTS!
Last edited by DivisibleByZero; 2015-06-12 at 03:06 PM.
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2015-06-12, 03:23 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2006
- Location
- Huntsville, AL
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Re: Werewolf Central X: Important WW information goes here - READ OPENING POSTS!
Ramsus, please check your PM inbox.
My Awsome Sig!
Spoiler
The Original Narrator for the SMBG "Werewolf" game
WEREWOLF CENTRAL
Avatar by Sampi
LET CHAOS RULE: Turquoise bicycle shoe fins actualize radishes greenly!
It's not about making money, it's about taking money; destroying the status quo. Because the status...is not quo.
Games I run: Fallout: Great Plains (Redux)
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2015-06-12, 03:40 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2010
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- Legend
Re: Werewolf Central X: Important WW information goes here - READ OPENING POSTS!
I think the first conflict here is the desire to allow all playstyles to play. A noble goal, certainly, but fraught with troubles: it could conflict with any of our purposes of werewolf. I see conflict where people who play to win benefit by lynching people that do not care much about winning, but I have also seen the reverse conflict, where roleplayers want to lynch non-roleplayers to maximise roleplaying. To what extent would protecting diversity override the interests of these players? What defines a playstyle worth protecting? Can a player choose to be unhelpful to Town whenever they're a wolf, but then defend themselves by labeling this choice a playstyle? Can a player, as a playstyle, ignore the game mechanics entirely and just roleplay and self-point? Can a player be lynched for not being helpful to Town? Can a player be lynched for not roleplaying? Do we declare some purposes of werewolf to override others? If not, who does? If nobody does, how can we play a game where everybody has a different objective? These are our defining questions.
Last edited by Saposhiente; 2015-06-12 at 03:43 PM.
Technical Admin of the Minecraft server. Whitelist is here; put your name there and post it in the thread.
The overly long monstrosity that is my extended signature lies here.
Avatar by Akrim.elf
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2015-06-12, 04:02 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2015
Re: Werewolf Central X: Important WW information goes here - READ OPENING POSTS!
That attitude is the only reason it's a conflict here.
It isn't a conflict on other boards.
It wasn't a conflict here if the Archives are any indication.
So ask yourself what's different? Why is it a conflict here at this time when it isn't elsewhere and it wasn't here in the past?
The exact attitude that you just shared. That's what's different.
edit:
And that's not a slight. That's simply an observation. It's only a conflict because you make it one.Last edited by DivisibleByZero; 2015-06-12 at 04:03 PM.
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2015-06-12, 04:22 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2007
- Location
- Whose eye is that eye?
- Gender
Re: Werewolf Central X: Important WW information goes here - READ OPENING POSTS!
How about we all just choose to be excellent to each other?
Two easy steps.
1: Never intentionally say or do anything to provoke or insult another person.
2: Assume that everyone is following rule 1, and therefore never be insulted or provoked by anything anyone says or does as it was probably unintentional and therefore excusable.
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2015-06-12, 04:27 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2014
Re: Werewolf Central X: Important WW information goes here - READ OPENING POSTS!
Currently Recruiting WW/Mafia: Logic's Deathloop Mafia and Cazero's Graduates Of Hope's Peak - Danganronpa Mafia
Avatar by AsteriskAmp
My Homebrew
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2015-06-12, 04:34 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2006
- Location
- Here and there.
- Gender
Re: Werewolf Central X: Important WW information goes here - READ OPENING POSTS!
My objective in playing any game is to have fun playing the game. I don't play tournament games at conventions for precisely the reason that I don't play games to maximize "utility of victory" - I play games to have fun. Period. When maximization of utility means the actual game becomes boring or frustrating or just plain damn annoying, then it is no longer my #1 goal.
Again. Ultimately, playing games, competitive games or otherwise, is something I do for entertainment. If that means I don't choose to hop aboard the "#1 guaranteed highest rate of success method" of playing a given game, well that's just too bad. If someone insist on the game being played that way and verbally bludgeoning people over the head who refuse to play in that fashion, sooner or later one of us is going to stop playing in games where the other kind of player plays.
But unless the narrator choosing to run the game flat out says "this is the playstyle I want to embrace", I'm not going to presume any given game must be played in that ultracompetitve style, and will continue to sign up and play my way, because whether or not you think my playstyle is effective doesn't give you the right to condemn it.
I play for fun first. Period.
ADDENDUM: Werewolf may have been based on the idea of playing with the lynch mob mentality as a game. When it goes past that point, to the point where psychological bullying and **** like that is going on *JUST TO WIN A FRIGGING GAME*, you're not playing with those ideas. You are demonstrating exactly why the mob mentality is a HORRIBLE thing. Something that shouldn't be emulated or praised or condoned. And some people (and I'm finding myself more and more among them) are finding that when you run into that, the game *stops being fun*.
At which point, they've lost whether or not they're on the winning team. Because the entire meta-level point of the game was to have fun.Last edited by Helgraf; 2015-06-12 at 04:43 PM.
Catatar made for me many years ago ... pretty sure by banjo1985
Werewolf Awards: 'Best Narration: Helgraf'
Rabbit says stuff that makes me blush.
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2015-06-12, 06:17 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2006
- Location
- Huntsville, AL
- Gender
Re: Werewolf Central X: Important WW information goes here - READ OPENING POSTS!
*slow claps for Murska
How about we all just choose to be excellent to each other?
Two easy steps.
1: Never intentionally say or do anything to provoke or insult another person.
2: Assume that everyone is following rule 1, and therefore never be insulted or provoked by anything anyone says or does as it was probably unintentional and therefore excusable.My objective in playing any game is to have fun playing the game. I don't play tournament games at conventions for precisely the reason that I don't play games to maximize "utility of victory" - I play games to have fun. Period. When maximization of utility means the actual game becomes boring or frustrating or just plain damn annoying, then it is no longer my #1 goal.
Again. Ultimately, playing games, competitive games or otherwise, is something I do for entertainment. If that means I don't choose to hop aboard the "#1 guaranteed highest rate of success method" of playing a given game, well that's just too bad. If someone insist on the game being played that way and verbally bludgeoning people over the head who refuse to play in that fashion, sooner or later one of us is going to stop playing in games where the other kind of player plays.
But unless the narrator choosing to run the game flat out says "this is the playstyle I want to embrace", I'm not going to presume any given game must be played in that ultracompetitve style, and will continue to sign up and play my way, because whether or not you think my playstyle is effective doesn't give you the right to condemn it.
I play for fun first. Period.
ADDENDUM: Werewolf may have been based on the idea of playing with the lynch mob mentality as a game. When it goes past that point, to the point where psychological bullying and **** like that is going on *JUST TO WIN A FRIGGING GAME*, you're not playing with those ideas. You are demonstrating exactly why the mob mentality is a HORRIBLE thing. Something that shouldn't be emulated or praised or condoned. And some people (and I'm finding myself more and more among them) are finding that when you run into that, the game *stops being fun*.
At which point, they've lost whether or not they're on the winning team. Because the entire meta-level point of the game was to have fun.
Thank you, my friend.
DBZ, you also make a good point.
*golf claps for DBZ
Regardless of anything else, this is what I want WW to go back to.My Awsome Sig!
Spoiler
The Original Narrator for the SMBG "Werewolf" game
WEREWOLF CENTRAL
Avatar by Sampi
LET CHAOS RULE: Turquoise bicycle shoe fins actualize radishes greenly!
It's not about making money, it's about taking money; destroying the status quo. Because the status...is not quo.
Games I run: Fallout: Great Plains (Redux)
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2015-06-12, 06:32 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2005
- Location
- Brazil
- Gender
Re: Werewolf Central X: Important WW information goes here - READ OPENING POSTS!
I saw TFT's post and I understood what he was trying to say then. I didn't feel offended by what he said or anything. I felt that kind of interaction was just part of the game. I'm terribily sorry if what I said offended anyone at any point. I'm really in it for the fun.
- - - Updated - - -
I don't know if this can have anything to do with it or not, but I fear that my tone could be not 100% accurate as English is not my first language. To me, my reply at the game went with a little nudge and that's all.Darn it Whisper !
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2015-06-12, 07:46 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2010
- Location
- :noitacoL
- Gender
Re: Werewolf Central X: Important WW information goes here - READ OPENING POSTS!
The purpose is the problem, because people go in to games with their own purpose and pay no heed to the purposes of the other players, or the purpose of the narrators in running the game to begin with.
I agree with all of this, except for the part I highlighted. We need less tolerance for it; we don't need to discuss it afterward, we need to kill it when it occurs. And I think the narrators should actively take steps to do that, as they're the only ones in the mix who don't have to worry about whether trying to change a game's tone is going to sabotage their teammates.SpoilerWhat kind of paranoid mind sees that as something else. ~ The Narrator, during Stranded in Space.
(Sugar Shock avatar by Dirtytabs.)
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2015-06-13, 01:17 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2010
- Gender
Re: Werewolf Central X: Important WW information goes here - READ OPENING POSTS!
Core Component: New Terms is now up and recruiting. Lex when is a reasonable point in time where I should stop being in recruiting mode?
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2015-06-14, 03:39 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2006
- Location
- In the shadows
- Gender
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2015-06-15, 09:55 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2010
- Location
- Legend
Re: Werewolf Central X: Important WW information goes here - READ OPENING POSTS!
I have collected additional thoughts on the debate but will wait until EK is dead in Classic in order to avoid influencing the game while dead.
Technical Admin of the Minecraft server. Whitelist is here; put your name there and post it in the thread.
The overly long monstrosity that is my extended signature lies here.
Avatar by Akrim.elf
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2015-06-15, 10:28 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2008
- Location
- Hiding in the shadows
- Gender
Re: Werewolf Central X: Important WW information goes here - READ OPENING POSTS!
Phantom of the Opera Werewolf VIII: In Spaaace has ended. The wolves have won.
Avatar by Emperor Ing
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2015-06-15, 11:59 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2006
- Location
- In the shadows
- Gender
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2015-06-16, 10:48 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2013
- Location
- Twin Cities, Minnesota
Re: Werewolf Central X: Important WW information goes here - READ OPENING POSTS!
I will at a convention and thus absent from the Forum and any gaming here from July 1-6.
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2015-06-19, 06:32 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2006
- Location
- In the shadows
- Gender
Re: Werewolf Central X: Important WW information goes here - READ OPENING POSTS!
We need more players, please, for Ramsus' Core Component: New Terms. Yes, it's Roleplay heavy. Yes, it's more roleplay than werewolf. Yes, the last one was very fun, for some at the very least. Sorry, I can't speak for everyone who played the last game. So for all those who'd like to try a game that focuses more on the roleplay than the werewolf hunting, this just might be the game for you.
This advertisement brought to you by the Henchpixie Union, and has thus far not been endorsed or approved of by Ramsus or any other participants of the current or previous Core Component games.
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2015-06-20, 01:56 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2006
- Location
- Here and there.
- Gender
Re: Werewolf Central X: Important WW information goes here - READ OPENING POSTS!
Catatar made for me many years ago ... pretty sure by banjo1985
Werewolf Awards: 'Best Narration: Helgraf'
Rabbit says stuff that makes me blush.
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2015-06-20, 10:35 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2013
- Location
- Twin Cities, Minnesota
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2015-06-20, 10:41 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2006
- Location
- Here and there.
- Gender
Re: Werewolf Central X: Important WW information goes here - READ OPENING POSTS!
Catatar made for me many years ago ... pretty sure by banjo1985
Werewolf Awards: 'Best Narration: Helgraf'
Rabbit says stuff that makes me blush.
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2015-06-24, 09:05 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2006
- Location
- Huntsville, AL
- Gender
Re: Werewolf Central X: Important WW information goes here - READ OPENING POSTS!
Sorry for the interruption, folks, but I am having problems getting in touch with a couple of players, and trying to prevent an auto-lynching:
WILL LORD FULLBLADDER, MASTER OF GOBLINS AND BANJO1985 PLEASE PM ME!!
Thank you. That is all.My Awsome Sig!
Spoiler
The Original Narrator for the SMBG "Werewolf" game
WEREWOLF CENTRAL
Avatar by Sampi
LET CHAOS RULE: Turquoise bicycle shoe fins actualize radishes greenly!
It's not about making money, it's about taking money; destroying the status quo. Because the status...is not quo.
Games I run: Fallout: Great Plains (Redux)
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2015-06-24, 06:44 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2006
- Location
- In the shadows
- Gender
Re: Werewolf Central X: Important WW information goes here - READ OPENING POSTS!
I haven't seen Banjo1985 in a while. He didn't reply to my PM or e-mail. He hasn't posted since the 28th of May.
I would have to look, which I just did, he logged on at least just yesterday, the 23rd of June. But hasn't posted since the 5th of June.
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2015-06-25, 03:09 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2006
- Location
- Here and there.
- Gender
Re: Werewolf Central X: Important WW information goes here - READ OPENING POSTS!
Catatar made for me many years ago ... pretty sure by banjo1985
Werewolf Awards: 'Best Narration: Helgraf'
Rabbit says stuff that makes me blush.
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2015-06-25, 08:52 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2006
- Location
- Huntsville, AL
- Gender
Re: Werewolf Central X: Important WW information goes here - READ OPENING POSTS!
Well, I've had no choice but to post on the thread that they are both in danger of auto-lynching, so if anybody here knows them IRL, please let them know, or at least have them contact me.
My Awsome Sig!
Spoiler
The Original Narrator for the SMBG "Werewolf" game
WEREWOLF CENTRAL
Avatar by Sampi
LET CHAOS RULE: Turquoise bicycle shoe fins actualize radishes greenly!
It's not about making money, it's about taking money; destroying the status quo. Because the status...is not quo.
Games I run: Fallout: Great Plains (Redux)
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2015-07-03, 11:47 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2014
Re: Werewolf Central X: Important WW information goes here - READ OPENING POSTS!
Alright, I've submitted my recruitment thread for approval. Can't wait to see if it gets enough interest to actually play.
Currently Recruiting WW/Mafia: Logic's Deathloop Mafia and Cazero's Graduates Of Hope's Peak - Danganronpa Mafia
Avatar by AsteriskAmp
My Homebrew
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2015-07-03, 01:18 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2006
- Location
- In the shadows
- Gender
Re: Werewolf Central X: Important WW information goes here - READ OPENING POSTS!
Presenting.... Murder at the Academy.