Group-friendly barbarian (pathfinder)

[punchbeard]

Hi all,
I'm running into what may be a problem with the other players in my group. I'm playing as a half-orc barbarian, invulnerable rager. Optimizing is relatively straightforward. I haven't taken Power Attack yet for RP purposes, and now I've leveled up to take a new feat. Power Attack is the obvious choice, and with it, I would 1-hit KO most enemies. Sounds great, right?

Well, since I'm already earning most of the party's kills, the other players don't get as much time to shine. The rogue can't sneak attack anyone because I've already killed them. The caster puts up environmental visibility hazards that interfere with melee attackers. You get the picture. Nobody's complained about it upfront, but it shows when some of the other players get bored during combat.

So, rather than up my damage output, I was thinking of pulling back and building a more "cooperative" barbarian. Maybe invest in maneuvering and battlefield control techniques. Yes, I realize that it's counter-intuitive and inefficient, but it might make the game more fun for everyone. Is this a terrible idea? Assuming it's not a terrible idea, how would I do this?

[Naez]

What level are you playing at? Because that seems pretty low level. Either way it seems like it's more the DMs issue. You can really only kill one thing at a time so if he threw more (but weaker) enemies it'd give the other players more time to shine.

[OldTrees1]

I would recommend a Goliath Barbarian wielding a Spiked Chain with Combat Reflexes, Knockback, and Improved Trip.

Your MO would be deciding where your enemies will be on the battlefield.


Edit: More Detail

Goliath Barbarian 3
Take the Goliath Barbarian Racial Substitution level a 1st (Rage gives Large size, +6Str, and +4Con)
Take the Spirit Lion totem Alternate Class feature at 1st (grants Pounce so you can charge in to trip/knockback everyone)
Take the Wolf Totem Alternate Class feature at 2nd (grants Improved Trip)

Feats: (2 flaws + feats from HD)
Combat Reflexes, Power Attack, Improved Bullrush, Knockback

[Qc Storm]

What level are you playing at? Because that seems pretty low level. Either way it seems like it's more the DMs issue. You can really only kill one thing at a time so if he threw more (but weaker) enemies it'd give the other players more time to shine.

I agree with this. Newer DMs may be reticent to ditch the CR system, but as soon as players get a grip of the system, it goes out of the window. In your case, if you're destroying encounters on your own, it's probably time to up the challenge a bit.

[Telonius]

Barbarians are most powerful (relative to the other classes) at very low levels. The do tend to steal the spotlight early on. An orc barbarian with a greatsword is one of those things that's just one lucky crit away from splattering most low-level opponents; that works for players as well as DMs. If you think you'll be playing anything above 6th level, I would worry more about your feat progression now. Barbarians are feat-starved, and the rest of the party will catch up quickly.

There are a couple of feats that might interest you, for a more battlefield-controlling Barbarian. The first is Imperious Command, from Drow of the Underdark. (You don't actually have to be a Drow to take it). If you use Intimidate to demoralize a foe, they Cower for a round. If a foe is Cowering, they are denied their Dex to AC - which is very good news for your party Rogue. This does require a pretty good Charisma score, though, so if you haven't planned for it, it might not be an option.

Another feat to combine with this would be Intimidating Rage from Complete Warrior. Once per Rage, you can Demoralize as a free action.

Otherwise you'd be looking at the standard lockdown builds - Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, possibly with Stand Still or some other tricks at higher levels. The basic idea is that you use a two-handed weapon (usually a reach weapon, since they threaten more squares) to trip the enemy, then keep them down as the rest of the party pulverizes them.

[punchbeard]

Okay, some information that may be relevant:

• Party consists of barbarian, bard, rogue, attack druid, debuff druid, and gunslinger.
• We leveled up to 3 at the end of last sesion, so it's too late to change racial traits.
• My INT is only 10, so I can't get Combat Expertise.
• My only feat (so far) is Intimidating Prowess, and rage power is Lesser Beast Totem.
• My primary strategy is to 2-hand greatsword until I need to rage, and then use lesser beast's double claws.
• GM considered doing CR, but decided against it.

Confession: I actually did not know that Demoralize could be used in combat until it was mentioned just now. Oops. Considering that Intimidate is my highest skill, and the others are entertained when I RP, maybe I could just do that more often during fights.

Alright. Imagine you're in a group where one player deals significantly more damage than everyone else. If he spent some turns to comically make enemies shaken instead of making them dead, giving you more opportunities to do stuff in combat, would that be more fun for you?

[Arutema]

Demoralizing a single enemy during combat is somewhat lackluster.

So head for Dazzling Display so you don't have to pick one and can demoralize every enemy in the room.

This is PF, right? I don't recall Invulnerable Rager and Gunslinger existing in 3.5.

[Lerondiel]

Hi all,
I'm running into what may be a problem with the other players in my group. I'm playing as a half-orc barbarian, invulnerable rager. Optimizing is relatively straightforward. I haven't taken Power Attack yet for RP purposes, and now I've leveled up to take a new feat. Power Attack is the obvious choice, and with it, I would 1-hit KO most enemies. Sounds great, right?

Well, since I'm already earning most of the party's kills, the other players don't get as much time to shine. The rogue can't sneak attack anyone because I've already killed them. The caster puts up environmental visibility hazards that interfere with melee attackers. You get the picture. Nobody's complained about it upfront, but it shows when some of the other players get bored during combat.

So, rather than up my damage output, I was thinking of pulling back and building a more "cooperative" barbarian. Maybe invest in maneuvering and battlefield control techniques. Yes, I realize that it's counter-intuitive and inefficient, but it might make the game more fun for everyone. Is this a terrible idea? Assuming it's not a terrible idea, how would I do this?

My first response is the most important.

You're a fantastic player. This forum is full of people struggling to keep up or deal with rampaging players, and your alertness is toward the enjoyment of the other players before they even begin to complain. Every group needs more players like you.

1) The other characters will catch up, particularly the druids if they understand what the class can do. It sounds like they may not have a lot of experience because 3rd level casters/rogues with their +4 to hit and d6+2 damage ought to expect the barbarian to run riot with a simple raging +10 to hit and 2d6+10 damage. Hopefully the DM will create regular social and stealth challenges to put other classes in the spotlight.

2) Opening up your character's versatility is a good idea in general. If you're up for a totally different character direction and Tome of Battle is allowed in your campaign you might enjoy the 'wolf pack leader' role by taking some warblade and white raven abilities for the flanking and team tactic bonuses. (Iron Heart abilities dont hurt for keeping you alive either!) Alternatively, some Rage Mage could be fun - particularly as the bard is your only arcanist.

[sideswipe]

ok punchbeard, if you are level 3 then when you hit level 5 you will start to see that your power drops a bit compared to others. after that at level 8 you will find you are not really shining at all. by level 10 you are comedic background.....

i would take power attack. the beauty of it is you don't need to use it. use it if you need to not all the time.

without some form of pounce and way of making lots of powerful attacks you will soon find yourself lagging behind the casters (and maybe even the rogue if its TWF and played well)

[Psyren]

I'm guessing you're playing Pathfinder due to the mention of "Invulnerable Rager."

The real answer here is that your GM needs to step it up - if the players are built such that each of you can kill or incapacitate an enemy per round, then obviously the GM has to ensure there are enough enemies in each combat so that it won't end before everyone gets at least one turn of doing their thing.

But not all GMs have the skill or experience to make those kind of adjustments, so let's look at what you can do. The unfortunate answer is "not much" - Barbarians are damage machines and little else, so your options are basically "hit as hard as you can" and "hit somewhat less hard than that." Really the only other thing you can do is a combat maneuver of some kind, like trip, disarm or sunder, for some pseudo-battlefield control - the downside is that each of these has enemies they aren't very good against, so focus on whichever one you can get the most mileage out of. But again, the solution to this problem lies with your GM, there's only so much you can do without straight up not playing your character properly.

[Spore]

Serious talk: If your DM steps up his game, you'll NEED Power Attack. If he doesn't ... well, problems ensue one way or the other. I would take Power Attack (along with Reckless Abandon on 4) and start RPing the fights. I would start gloating over how you don't even have to put real effort into your swings. Stop using Rage in every combat. Don't be an ass about it, too. I guess your DM gets the hint. Generally I always feel that taking feats for fluff purposes is kind of weird. DownPLAYING your character on the other side is not.

The combat sounds like your DM is shy in fear of killing anyone, so your mettle isn't tested.

[sideswipe]

Serious talk: If your DM steps up his game, you'll NEED Power Attack. If he doesn't ... well, problems ensue one way or the other. I would take Power Attack (along with Reckless Abandon on 4) and start RPing the fights. I would start gloating over how you don't even have to put real effort into your swings. Stop using Rage in every combat. Don't be an ass about it, too. I guess your DM gets the hint. Generally I always feel that taking feats for fluff purposes is kind of weird. DownPLAYING your character on the other side is not.

The combat sounds like your DM is shy in fear of killing anyone, so your mettle isn't tested.

i always have the opposite problem.

i have DM's that like to try to murder players a lot. just for funzies

[Spore]

i have DM's that like to try to murder players a lot. just for funzies

I know what you mean. There's a difference between "we are social roleplaying and having fun this way" and "our DM wants to straight up kill us every encounter". And I love both games.

The social game really used the potential for having (and realistically playing out) Charisma 6 but the players didn't just ditch the "ugly duckling" and ignored everything Cha 6-guy did. As I know the most about the world, I can realistically play into most knowledge rolls naturally without asking the DM too much.

In the combat game, our DM holds combat few and far between, but he cranks up the challenge to 11. Where we cut the last time, we're up to what can only be two CR 16 daemons ambushing our 11th level group of 4. Also his world kind of is "perma-death" because only in exceptions do clerics agree to raise the dead as the afterlife quickly deforms and twists the target's mind.

[punchbeard]

The campaign is Pathfinder. I thought I tagged it in the thread but should have clarified that earlier. I've also been in another of this GM's campaigns, and he knows what he's doing - horrible things will come later.

Anyhow, what I'm hearing is a bit disheartening. Barbarian doesn't scale much past level 5? How do I keep up scale to the other players? Considering that I use multiple weapons, Weapon Focus/Dazzling Display is too costly. Maybe at some point I could fight with a bardiche and use 5-foot steps when appropriate.

Combat Reflexes could be really useful with my 2 DEX bonus, but I'm unsure how often it would be useful. I considered Dodge or Ironhide, which could help while raging, though their following feats don't seem that great for me, especially if I take Guarded Stance later. Power Attack is the prerequisite for some useful feats, like Improved Bullrush/Sunder (are they useful at higher levels?), though so it looks like I'm going with that for now, and figure out what to do later.

As for rage powers, I know to take Beast Totem at 6 and Greater Beast Totem at 10. I have no animal companion or mount. So, for level 4, I'm thinking Guarded Stance, Guarded Life, or Superstition. If I take Superstition, then I go for Disruptive at 8, otherwise Guarded Life or Increased DR.

Opinions? Suggestions?

[Spore]

Barbarian is by NO means a defensive class so I would avoid choices that buff your AC. You have a scaling DR. That is very good and enough defense. You should strengthen your attack, cover your weaknesses (e.g. saves) and find tricks that increase your combat choices. I hate Superstition as a buffer but I loved it on my stupid barbarian. Keep in mind that you autosave against healing spells that would keep you alive when only your rage keeps you alive.

Did you take the feat that lets you rage unconscious as well as gives you another +2 Con in rage? It is very worth a feat slot.

[punchbeard]

Did you take the feat that lets you rage unconscious as well as gives you another +2 Con in rage? It is very worth a feat slot.

Raging Vitality is definitely appealing. Does the +2 constitution bonus add temporary hp?

[sideswipe]

the scale does depend on the way the others play.
but you will find that the majority of problems will be solved by casters.

in combat you need to remain relevant. so you either need to output hideous damage (through power attacking with a 2 handed weapon and adding multipliers) or to do something that locks down combat, like a tripper or something like that.

i would take power attack, then i would take shock trooper if you are allowed it. leap attack later on.

if you did not take spirit lion at level 1 then i suggest you try to find another way of getting pounce. possibly turning into a were- animal with it. its not necessary if your group are quite low powered.

as long as you remain out damaging everyone then you are doing your job. if the others complain then say " the rogue has skills and you guys have spells. i have a big stick".
another point is say "if im doing a tonne of damage then the enemies will want to kill me first. meaning i am tanking for you and keeping you alive."

but outside of combat you will start to wane in power a lot.

edit - just realised this may be pathfinder, so whatever the equivalent is or ask your Dm to take those 3.5 feats.

[Red Fel]

Anyhow, what I'm hearing is a bit disheartening. Barbarian doesn't scale much past level 5? How do I keep up scale to the other players?

Aha, the broadsword is stabbed into the other foot now! All teasing aside, I agree with Lerondiel - good on you for being more team-oriented.

The thing about scaling is that, at early levels, damage output may be king, but at later levels, versatility has more value than DPR. Being able to lock down enemies, or take them out without getting in their faces, is incredibly useful, as are other tools like invisibility, flight, teleportation, speaking languages, having extensive knowledge skills; basically all the stuff casters embarrass the rest of the party doing.

Now, the PF Barbarian is, at least in my opinion, a big improvement over the 3.5 Barbarian, who was basically a walking beatstick with rage and some useful ACFs. Rage powers are awesome, and some of them do help with versatility. For example, Come and Get Me is awesome for supporting the party, Dragon Totem Wings and Raging Flier can grant temporary flight, Ghost Rager bypasses incorporeality, and Energy Eruption gives you a breath weapon. Unfortunately, the vast majority of Rage Powers tend to boil down to "hit things harder" and the occasional "don't get hit as hard." There's not a lot of versatility, and most of your effectiveness comes from face smashing.

Consider the fact that at high levels, you're dealing with enemies that can lock you down just as effectively as your casters can lock them down. If a caster is immobilized, he can still cast; if a Barbarian is locked down, he can barely do much at all (unless he has a bow or a few ranged tricks). If a caster is completely locked down, he can often use spells to wriggle out and keep casting; if a Barbarian is locked down, he can't do much at all, full stop.

Your allies might be a bit behind right now, but give them time, and they'll shine all on their own.

They grow up so fast, y'know.

[Spore]

Raging Vitality is definitely appealing. Does the +2 constitution bonus add temporary hp?

It gets calculated the same as the Con bonus from rage. The main point is avoiding the "sudden death syndrome" induced by dropping under 0 while raging and suddenly loosing 2/3/4 * level HP due to falling out of rage.

Your average Con 16 -> Con 20 Barbarian on 3rd level looses 2 * 3 = 6 HP and if he drops to -5 before rage ends, you are effectively at -11.

Later on, your Con 18 (belted) -> Con 24 Barbarian on 11th level looses 3 * 11 = 33 HP. So when he falls unconscious on -1 HP, he immediately looses 33 HP, pushing him to -34 and killing him.

[punchbeard]

Ok. Stick with Power Attack for level 3, then Raging Vitality at level 5. Sounds good.
Can you tell me more about locking down in combat? Which rage powers would help with this?
I was thinking Intimidating Glare because of my silly Intimidate bonus, but the adjacency requirement makes it not as good. I may as well just use Demoralize (it works ranged, right?).

[atemu1234]

It gets calculated the same as the Con bonus from rage. The main point is avoiding the "sudden death syndrome" induced by dropping under 0 while raging and suddenly loosing 2/3/4 * level HP due to falling out of rage.

Your average Con 16 -> Con 20 Barbarian on 3rd level looses 2 * 3 = 6 HP and if he drops to -5 before rage ends, you are effectively at -11.

Later on, your Con 18 (belted) -> Con 24 Barbarian on 11th level looses 3 * 11 = 33 HP. So when he falls unconscious on -1 HP, he immediately looses 33 HP, pushing him to -34 and killing him.

Basically. The constitution boost is a trap.

[Spore]

Ok. Stick with Power Attack for level 3, then Raging Vitality at level 5. Sounds good.
Can you tell me more about locking down in combat? Which rage powers would help with this?
I was thinking Intimidating Glare because of my silly Intimidate bonus, but the adjacency requirement makes it not as good. I may as well just use Demoralize (it works ranged, right?).

My only barbarian was Lv 15, but I did lockdown only as a side thing. I like Knockback for that. It is useable multiple times while raging, reduces the full attacks you keep getting. Drawback is that you pretty much screw your rogue's gameplay up. Knockdown is also fun. Other than that I used the Beast Totem line, Strength Surge to ensure my maneuvers hit, Reckless Abandon to hit always (you have DR to be used) and Come and Get me to deal more damage when it's not my turn.

Basically the build did 100+ dpr in his turn, and over 200 dpr in AoOs.

[Psyren]

Basically. The constitution boost is a trap.

At high levels though, almost anything that drops you below zero is going to make you a grease stain anyway. The goal is to not let that happen, or in the worst case scenario, for the party to have a resurrection fund like they would for any other high-level character.

[punchbeard]

Okay, for the level 4 rage power, I looked at Reckless Abandon, but Superstition might be better. With DR, Reckless Abandon is okay and reduces the chance of wasting rage rounds. On the other hand, the other players would need healing more than me, so the superstitious resistance to being healed while raging seems like a fair cost. Plus, Superstition is a prerequisite for a variety of later powers, whereas the only following rage power to Reckless Abandon is Inspire Ferocity, which is useless given my -2 charisma bonus. Also, the CMB penalty isn't so bad if I occasionally use Demoralize during rages, capitalizing on my silly +(9+level) Intimidate bonus.

What about lockdown strategies? Are there better rage powers available at level 4 for lockdown?

[Spore]

I feel you want Intimidating Glare to go with Terrifying Howl sometimes. On another note, Shield Other (or the respective rings) can work around Superstition. But requires a hefty amount of HP on the second target. THIS DOESN'T MEAN YOU CAN TAKE DOUBLE THE DAMAGE!

[punchbeard]

Let's see what I have planned so far:

• Half-orc barbarian, invulnerable rager. 18 STR, 14 DEX, 14 CON, 10 INT, 13 WIS, 7 CHA. Swapped Orc Ferocity for Sacred Tattoo.
• Level 1 feat: Intimidating Prowess.
• Level 2 rage power: Lesser Beast Totem.
• Level 3 feat: Power Attack. Extreme endurance against cold makes sense for backstory, although PF seems to have more sources of fire damage, so endurance against heat might be better.
• Level 4 rage: Superstition. Let the healers take care of the weaker characters.
• Level 4 ability increase: Wisdom, raising mod from +1 to +2. Good for Will saves.
• Level 5 feat: Raging Vitality, since a +2 CON mod only goes so far.
• Level 6 rage: Beast totem. Scaling AC is nice.
• Level 7 feat: Cleave, in case of flanking, also lets me get tactical in battlefield placement. Improved Bullrush could also be useful.
• Level 8 rage: Disruptive. Even though some minmax guides say it's bad, by this point I anticipate more enemy casters, and it could help other players as well.
• Level 8 ability increase: Dexterity. I'll need it later.
• Level 9 feat: I don't know. Extra rage power maybe, or build off of whatever I chose at level 7. I hear that Step Up is useful, but I'm unsure how to use it properly.
• Level 10 rage: Greater beast totem, because pounce and bigger claws.
• Level 11 feat: Combat Reflexes, because...
• Level 12 rage: Come and Get Me, because taking +4 damage is covered by 6 DR.
• Level 12 ability increase: Dexterity, raising mod from +2 to +3. Good for AC and get 4th attack of opportunity with Combat Reflexes.

Note that I haven't picked any "once per rage, do X" rage powers.
How does it look?

[Geddy2112]

You're a fantastic player. This forum is full of people struggling to keep up or deal with rampaging players, and your alertness is toward the enjoyment of the other players before they even begin to complain. Every group needs more players like you.

1) The other characters will catch up, particularly the druids

[COLOR="#0000FF"]
All teasing aside, I agree with Lerondiel - good on you for being more team-oriented.

Your allies might be a bit behind right now, but give them time, and they'll shine all on their own.

They grow up so fast, y'know.

+1 to both of these responses. I would be honored to play a session with you, and great job! Keep up the teamwork.

Your party build is setup where right now, you are the king. Barbarians are built to hit like a mack truck, then just bash bash and bash some more. You have far more damage output than any other player, but those days will end. Without a magic weapon, a single incorporeal creature makes you outright useless. Some enemies are just plain dangerous to get near and bad ideas to fight with melee(gelatinous cubes, rust monsters). Flying monsters force you to throw something(which is a fantastic way to RP a barbarian in combat) and damage reduction can also throw you for a loop. As others said above, soon the other characters, particularly the magic users are going to be gods in combat, and you will play second fiddle. Melee characters grow linearly, but magic grows exponentially.

I saw a lot of suggestions for a maneuver build, and that is certainly an option. A trip build would just make your rogue outright giddy, but you can help him sneak attack by just flanking. Grappling would be fun, as you could hold the enemies down and let the other characters do their thing. Just remember that one day they will be gods and you will still be swinging a 2 handed weapon(although much harder). However, the debuff druid is going to have a lot more options to disrupt long term and you will probably need them.

Let your bard and rogue shine in social situations. As I already stated, give the rogue a chance to apply sneak attack anytime you can. Bardic performance is going to help you throughout the campaign, and once he gets haste you will be thanking them every-time. Your druids are about to hit beast shape, which is a major game changer; make sure they both have natural spell and they can either fly around and cast as a bird, or get into the fray as a big cat/ape/etc and bash alongside you. The gunslinger is gonna clash the most as you both are about doing lots of damage physical damage. However, they are gonna stick back and shoot while you go in and strike. Every ranged build loves a big body in front taking the hits and threatening a nasty AOO if the enemy goes for them!

[Arbane]

Ok. Stick with Power Attack for level 3, then Raging Vitality at level 5. Sounds good.
Can you tell me more about locking down in combat? Which rage powers would help with this?
I was thinking Intimidating Glare because of my silly Intimidate bonus, but the adjacency requirement makes it not as good. I may as well just use Demoralize (it works ranged, right?).

If the GM is okay with using feats from more obscure books, consider Cornugon Smash and Hurtful.

Add Terrifying Howl and/or a Cruel weapon and see your enemies cower before you! The ones you didn't already power-attack to death, anyway.

Okay, for the level 4 rage power, I looked at Reckless Abandon, but Superstition might be better. With DR, Reckless Abandon is okay and reduces the chance of wasting rage rounds. On the other hand, the other players would need healing more than me, so the superstitious resistance to being healed while raging seems like a fair cost. Plus, Superstition is a prerequisite for a variety of later powers, whereas the only following rage power to Reckless Abandon is Inspire Ferocity, which is useless given my -2 charisma bonus. Also, the CMB penalty isn't so bad if I occasionally use Demoralize during rages, capitalizing on my silly +(9+level) Intimidate bonus.

People worry about the 'you must save' part of Superstitious, but the best way to get around it is to get the team buffer to cast a spell on you before you rage and attack.

I don't think it's been updated recently, but this guide to playing a Barbarian still has some solid advice. (And is funny, IMNSHO.)

[kalasulmar]

Furious Focus should definitely be on your feat list. Especially at level 7, 9, or 11.

[punchbeard]

If the GM is okay with using feats from more obscure books, consider Cornugon Smash and Hurtful.

The only available books beyond core are APG, ACG, Ultimate Equipment/Magic/Combat, and Skull & Shackles Player guide (probably should have mentioned that sooner). But even if those feats were available, I won't need to deal damage each turn when I'm not raging once the party catches up. I'm willing to give up an attack for a Demoralize, since it has no range limit.

Furious Focus should definitely be on your feat list. Especially at level 7, 9, or 11.

Interesting. What if I took Furious Focus at level 7, then push back Cleave to level 9?