[MTG] Community Set Project - Discussion, Brainstorming, Exploratory Design

[CantigThimble]

I'd prefer not to use exile too much, especially casting from exile.

What about using the hand as 'the mind' and therefore the dream? A reflavored forecast ability could be used, or some effects like the dragon minions from DTK:

Sleepy Sorcerer 2U
Creature - Human Wizard C
Dream - As an additional cost to cast this spell you may reveal an instant card from your hand, if you do it enters the battlefield with a +1/+1 counter on it.
2/3
When he finally awoke, he had some interesting new revelations to share with his rivals.

This also interacts well with ephemeral and sanity.

[Zaydos]

Going to add my voice to the idea that the Exile zone probably isn't the best to play around with.

Global enchantments could be fun, though creatures that become them upon death could cause memory issues. Maybe bring back the flip (I think it was) cards from Kamigawa? More workable in a standard set than the Transform cards even if they have their own set of issues.

Though Library shenanigans could also be fun. Let's us through in Landcycling, Dream/nightmarecycling, and things similar to that, and ultimately I would say discard/mill ought to be a big part of the set since those are things nightmare effects usually do in MtG.

Of the suggested mechanics I have to say I like the "reveal from your hand" and sanity ones the best (though sanity should be 2 or 3 cards not 4).

[Landis963]

Secondly, I have the idea for a cycle of common creatures called "Dreamtouched something". I am thinking 2/2 for three or four, possibly with some kind of ability.
Green could be dreamtouched hermit.
Blue: dreamtouched scholar
White: dreamtouched soldier
Black: dreamtouched merchenary
Red: i dunno what would fit here

Dreamtouched Firebrand for red. He'd be able to "wake up" a Dreaming creature and either Act of Treason it or Haste it. Actually, let me do some sample templates for them all. (All these are ETB effects) First thoughts: white substantially needs a buff, red and green substantially need nerfs.

Dreamtouched Soldier, 2W
Creature - Human Soldier
Target Dreaming creature gets +1/+1. It wakes up until end of turn. (This doesn't remove the +1/+1)
2/2

Dreamtouched Scholar, 2U
Creature - Merfolk Wizard
Draw cards equal to target Dreaming creature's toughness. It wakes up until end of turn.
2/2

Dreamtouched Mercenary, 2B
Creature - Human Mercenary
Target Dreaming Creature gets -1/-1. If it dies this turn, it is put into its owner's graveyard.
2/2

Dreamtouched Firebrand, 2R
Creature - Elemental Shaman
Gain control of Target Dreaming creature until end of turn. It wakes up, gains +2/+2 and haste, and must attack this turn if able.
2/2

Dreamtouched Hermit, 2G
Creature - Elf Shaman
You may wake up any number of Dreaming creatures you control to put a +1/+1 counter on target creature for each. It gains trample until end of turn.
2/2

[Ninjaman]

White could be pleasant dreams, with cards like angels giving good dreams. To throw some order in, it might have a group that keeps people complacent by giving them eternal blissful sleep.

Green could be "natural" dreams, unaltered by magic or strong emotion, and/or aim to spread nature and grow in the dreamworld.

An interesting idea would be to have a mechanic Dream or Dreaming. When something Dreams, it would be exiled or tapped, and then be able to interact with other Dreaming things. For example:

Dreaming Grovetender G
Creature - Satyr Dreamer U
T - ~ Dreams. (Exile it. It is Dreaming. When it Wakes, return it to the battlefield tapped.)
While ~ is dreaming, at the beginning of your first main phase, add G to your mana pool. Spend this mana only on Dreamers and Dreams.
1/1

Watcher of Bliss 3WW
Creature - Angel Dreamer R
Flying
* is the number of permanents Dreaming that you own.
T - ~ Dreams. Prevent the next * damage to target creature.
WW - ~ wakes.
*/*

Ethereal Predator 2GG
Creature - Lizard Beast Dreamer U
T - ~ Dreams.
GG - ~ and target creature Wake. They Fight.
4/4

Blissful Dream W
Enchantment - Dream U
Enchant Player
When ~ enters the battlefield, target creature enchanted player controls Dreams.
At the end of your turn, enchanted player gains 1 life.

This seems way too complicated.
I am on the mill wagon.

[Eldest]

I think having flip cards is a much better idea for dreaming things than exiling. Further, what if white, instead of going for perpetual slumber, wants to keep everyone awake? Also other ideas for the colors are white cards and green cards having a decent amount of shroud (green goes for natural dreams and white.... I had something and I forgot) while blue has hexproof (They want to be the only ones in control of their dreams). Red, on the other hand, has a good amount of global sorceries, instants and maybe enchantments? The idea is they aren't consciously altering the worlddream, they're just unleashing their emotions.

And having access to mill in more colors than normal, possibly all the colors, I am certainly on board with.

[TechnoWarforged]

Just random thoughts here:

Reprint this card I guess:



Edit: there's lots of dream cards in blue.

Blue should be about aspiration type of dream. should have a lot of draw mechanics.

Black should have a lot of Nightmarish theme; discard type cards.

There needs to be a Red card call "Feverish Dream"

I could actually see a setting where a plane exist between Dreams and Reality. White/Red/Green wants to wake the plane to reality while Blue/Black/Green wants to keep the Plane in it's dream state.

[CantigThimble]

Ok how about this:
Figment (When you cast this spell each opponent puts the top three cards of their library into their graveyard)

The list of mechanics I want to use are:
Figment
Ephemeral (Whenever this card becomes the target of a spell of ability return it to its owners hand)
Dream - As an additional cost to cast this spell you may reveal a *blank* card from your hand. If you do *blank*.
Sanity - As long as you have at least three cards in your hand *blank* or for 1 shot effects If you have at least 3 cards in your hand *blank*.

In addition to these mechanics I think we should use Nightmares, Illusions and perhaps Incarnations. These could have tribal, or just be themed around mechanics (nightmares having more figment, illusions having more ephemeral). Global enchantments should be important, at least a rare and uncommon cycle, maybe even a common cycle if we find some good effects for them. The hand should be a very important zone in this block, bounce spells, hand attack and other similar effects should be common.

I'm open to suggestions of course but this is what the set looks like to me.

Oh and one more thing, T: Target creature *blank* becomes immensely powerful with ephemeral, it should probably be limited to targeting your own creatures where possible.

[r2d2go]

I definitely like the idea of flipped cards, but separation between dreaming and awake is something I think is important for opening design space. I think something that might work is a keyword that functions like Shadow. So, Dreaming would be flipped, and Dreaming creatures can only blocked, be blocked, and be targeted by Dreaming creatures?

[Landis963]

I definitely like the idea of flipped cards, but separation between dreaming and awake is something I think is important for opening design space. I think something that might work is a keyword that functions like Shadow. So, Dreaming would be flipped, and Dreaming creatures can only blocked, be blocked, and be targeted by Dreaming creatures?

Why don't we just use shadow? We can even have Instants and Sorceries with Shadow. It'd obviate the "dreamtouched" cycle as templated but we can work around that.

[CantigThimble]

You could have an ability that puts dream counters on permanents and then they have shadow and deal damage in the form of mill but I'd much rather use the hand as the dream and the battlefield as reality.

[Ninjaman]

Ok how about this:
Figment (When you cast this spell each opponent puts the top three cards of their library into their graveyard)

Seems like a sort of boring/pointless mechanic.

The list of mechanics I want to use are:
Figment
Ephemeral (Whenever this card becomes the target of a spell of ability return it to its owners hand)
Dream - As an additional cost to cast this spell you may reveal a *blank* card from your hand. If you do *blank*.
Sanity - As long as you have at least three cards in your hand *blank* or for 1 shot effects If you have at least 3 cards in your hand *blank*.

Dream seems like a mechanic that's really annoying to play with, especially in limited.

In addition to these mechanics I think we should use Nightmares, Illusions and perhaps Incarnations. These could have tribal, or just be themed around mechanics (nightmares having more figment, illusions having more ephemeral). Global enchantments should be important, at least a rare and uncommon cycle, maybe even a common cycle if we find some good effects for them. The hand should be a very important zone in this block, bounce spells, hand attack and other similar effects should be common.

Nightmares, illusions and incarnations seem fine, though no tribal. Wizards have chosen not to use tribal for sets with good tribal support (like innistrad), it would be a big mistake to include it in a set where it wasn't the main focus.

Oh and one more thing, T: Target creature *blank* becomes immensely powerful with ephemeral, it should probably be limited to targeting your own creatures where possible.

Yes, same goes for C:Target creature.

I definitely like the idea of flipped cards, but separation between dreaming and awake is something I think is important for opening design space. I think something that might work is a keyword that functions like Shadow. So, Dreaming would be flipped, and Dreaming creatures can only blocked, be blocked, and be targeted by Dreaming creatures?

Might as well just bring back shadow instead of making a new mechanic, (fits well enough with dreams I guess though I don't think this is the road we want to take).

[Blue Ghost]

If we want to do an evasion mechanic to express the separation between dreams and reality, we can do the dreamwalk mechanic that both Lyanar and Dreamscape used (This creature can only be blocked by tapped creatures). Though since there are already two custom sets that use that mechanic as a centerpiece, maybe it would be better to avoid it. I'm not fond of shadow. It's too parasitic and noninteractive.

Ephemeral is certainly a flavorful mechanic, but what purpose does it serve in the set? How does it shape gameplay to fit the dream theme?

The hand as the dream is interesting, but I'm not sure how much design space that would have. Also, as a hidden zone, it's going to be hard to express the shared dream idea flavorfully, if we're going with that. What are some mechanical and flavorful advantages of the hand as the dream?

There seems to be some support for a milling theme. That could lend to a dual library/graveyard theme, with library being visions of the future, and graveyard being dreams of the past.

[Landis963]

Ephemeral is certainly a flavorful mechanic, but what purpose does it serve in the set? How does it shape gameplay to fit the dream theme?

I thought it would communicate the "shifting battlefield" idea - having some things be, well, real and others not. It also serves to designate the hand or the exile zone as the dream (depending on what works for the mechanic overall, of course), with the battlefield of course being the reality.

[Eldest]

I think a better version of that might be bringing back phasing, as somebody suggested earlier. It's a neat mechanic, but I can see it sharing space with a decent chunk of illusions and while they're similar they aren't the same. Adding phasing onto non-creatures might be interesting, though: enchantments or artifacts with either static, ETB, or LTB effects.

[Landis963]

I think a better version of that might be bringing back phasing, as somebody suggested earlier. It's a neat mechanic, but I can see it sharing space with a decent chunk of illusions and while they're similar they aren't the same. Adding phasing onto non-creatures might be interesting, though: enchantments or artifacts with either static, ETB, or LTB effects.

Phasing has memory issues involved with its EoT trigger. Otherwise, yes, it would probably be better.

[r2d2go]

I think a better version of that might be bringing back phasing, as somebody suggested earlier. It's a neat mechanic, but I can see it sharing space with a decent chunk of illusions and while they're similar they aren't the same. Adding phasing onto non-creatures might be interesting, though: enchantments or artifacts with either static, ETB, or LTB effects.

That could work, but I think phasing creatures would generally need something that says "if this is exiled, you may do this" or "do this from exile", so that instead of being a strict remove-from-play effect, it feels like a transition from reality to dreams.

[Zaydos]

I will note that when a permanent phases out it does not leave the battlefield and it is not in the Exile zone, and we might want to review phasing rules before using deciding to use it or not (also it doesn't cause memory issues with EoT abilities, it ceases to exist so they cease to affect it... unless they specifically affect phased out objects).

Phasing would actually be really interesting since there are things you can do with it that haven't been done (cards to interact with it, which would need to be kept at a minimum due to parasitic effects, enchantments with different effects whether phased in or out, etc), but is typically considered to have been a bad mechanic from what I've heard and is one that most people don't remember the rules to. It'd also probably not be best to bring it and flip cards back at the same time, so we'd probably want to choose one or the other.

[Blue Ghost]

We are definitely not doing phasing as is. The whole "phased in/phased out" thing is way too confusing, and brings little gameplay benefit. A fixed version of phasing that exiles the card when it's phased out could work, but I'm not sure how fun it would be.

What would flip cards bring to the table? How are they connected to dreams? We were talking about them as a way to transition from creatures to enchantments or vice versa, but I don't think that's really necessary.

I'm not too fond of hands representing dreams. Dreams are chaotic and unpredictable, while the player's hand is the one zone they have most control over. There's too much of a flavor disconnect there. And the "hand size matters" theme proved to be a failure in Kamigawa.

I'm still pushing either a library or enchantment theme, or both.

Would morph/manifest be a fit here? They could convey the amorphous feel of dreams. And we could possibly explore morph on noncreatures. Though using morph is a heavy commitment, and would probably take up nearly all our complexity space.

[r2d2go]

I will note that when a permanent phases out it does not leave the battlefield and it is not in the Exile zone, and we might want to review phasing rules before using deciding to use it or not (also it doesn't cause memory issues with EoT abilities, it ceases to exist so they cease to affect it... unless they specifically affect phased out objects).

Phasing would actually be really interesting since there are things you can do with it that haven't been done (cards to interact with it, which would need to be kept at a minimum due to parasitic effects, enchantments with different effects whether phased in or out, etc), but is typically considered to have been a bad mechanic from what I've heard and is one that most people don't remember the rules to. It'd also probably not be best to bring it and flip cards back at the same time, so we'd probably want to choose one or the other.

I'd go with flip cards, personally, though I'd really like an obvious difference between a dream world and reality. It opens some interesting interactions and mechanics, is fairly easy to use in a basic way, and is (in my opinion) more flavorful than making things just interact with your hand. One way that might be cool is to just have the flipped cards have a (sub/super)type, and then reference that, to alleviate memory problems yet create a status that means you are in the dream world. For example, my previous cards:

Mystic Grovetender G
Creature - Satyr C
T - Flip ~.
1/1
//
Dreaming Grovetender
Enchantment - Dream Satyr U
At the beginning of your first main phase, add G to your mana pool.

Watcher of Bliss 2WW
Creature - Angel U
* is the number of Dreams you control.
T - Flip ~. Prevent the next * damage to target creature or player this turn.
*/*

Distant Watcher
Enchantment - Dream Angel R
T, WW - Flip ~.

Ethereal Predator 2GG
Creature - Lizard Beast U
T - Flip target Dream. If it is a creature, ~ fights it.
3/3

I'm still pushing either a library or enchantment theme, or both.

This would be an Enchantment theme, I think. Conveniently enough, creatures flipping into enchantments was already a thing, so this might work out

[Eldest]

Library theme sounds good, and I could make an argument for both fateseal and scry being good for that.

In addition, another question to settle, what's the plane like outside the Worlddream? What's it look like, and how does the dual nature change the world? My thoughts are that it's a temperate location where most people live, with the further you get from the center of society the more wild and hostile it is, along with the less seperation between awake and dreaming. Maybe there's a large artifact/temple/ritual site/something holding the dream apart from reality, and the second set is when it gets damaged? One neat flavor thing I'd take from either Changeling (the nWoD game) or the Amber books is the idea of individuals doing risky plunges into the deeper parts of the dream to find useful swag and bringing it back, with the change that the stuff they bring back might not be artifacts, it could be people or even concepts.

[Landis963]

Library theme sounds good, and I could make an argument for both fateseal and scry being good for that.

In addition, another question to settle, what's the plane like outside the Worlddream? What's it look like, and how does the dual nature change the world? My thoughts are that it's a temperate location where most people live, with the further you get from the center of society the more wild and hostile it is, along with the less seperation between awake and dreaming. Maybe there's a large artifact/temple/ritual site/something holding the dream apart from reality, and the second set is when it gets damaged? One neat flavor thing I'd take from either Changeling (the nWoD game) or the Amber books is the idea of individuals doing risky plunges into the deeper parts of the dream to find useful swag and bringing it back, with the change that the stuff they bring back might not be artifacts, it could be people or even concepts.

A white-aligned bastion of some kind, built around some center point which anchors the plane to one form. Perhaps several of those, a la the Therosian Poleis or the Innistradi settlements. And outside the settlements are places where reality and dream feed each other, somehow.

[Blue Ghost]

Fateseal is terrible and should never be used.

Scry is a nice choice. I was thinking perhaps a tweak on it, letting you choose between returning the scried cards to the top of your library or putting them into your graveyard. It can potentially fuel graveyard shenanigans and flashback (which I'm also pitching for this set), while being a liability against mill.

It occurs to me that r2d2go's setting pitch could fit this set.

[Eldest]

A white-aligned bastion of some kind, built around some center point which anchors the plane to one form. Perhaps several of those, a la the Therosian Poleis or the Innistradi settlements. And outside the settlements are places where reality and dream feed each other, somehow.

So White wants to keep the dream sealed away. Green wants natural dreams. Red wants the dream to break through to reality, maybe? Loosening the barriers. Black wants power, both inside and out. And Blue wants control of their dreams and to utilize them.

I think I'd actually enjoy the W/U conflict if that's what we go with, since it seems like those colors are allied a lot, and in that setup they'd be enemies.

[r2d2go]

It occurs to me that r2d2go's setting pitch could fit this set.

Quite possibly! A central world with two poles, white and black above and below, the center has RGU and a dreaming elder dragon causing disturbance - That'd be interesting in terms of geography, at least, and could still accommodate any individual conflicts people want between colors.

On a different note, some people seem to want a library theme, but I'm unsure exactly how that ties into the dreams, flavor wise. Do people have existing keywords in mind? How would the "Dreamworld" be mechanically represented, and how would it be different than "Reality"? I like enchantments better mostly because enchantments and flipping makes it easier to mechanically represent the separation between dreams and reality and make the divide very clear, but if a few good keywords can make a library theme work, that'd be cool.

[Blue Ghost]

The library can be a flavorful representation of the subconscious, where dreams originate. Manifest or a similar mechanic can represent pulling objects from the subconscious into reality. Scry or something can represent tapping into the subconscious for knowledge. Perhaps some dream creatures mill instead of doing life point damage. This can convey that the danger posed by the dreamworld is mental instead of physical, but no less real.

I don't think there's any conflict between a library theme and an enchantment theme. We can do both, without either one detracting from the other.

I'm not quite sold on the flavor of flipping. Does it represent real objects and creatures becoming dreams and vice versa?

[Zaydos]

I initially suggested flipping for a way to avoid memory issues with "when this creature dies it becomes an enchantment which is no longer a creature" style effects. So I'd say flipping would represent real creatures becoming dreams and vice versa.

[Eldest]

I'd like to stay away from celestial/demonic ideas, personally. We're already having two very important planes, adding in 2-4 more I think would just complicate it. The idea of the plane being odd because of the elder dragon sleeping in it, though, that idea I like.

Different note, I think that manifest is perfect for dreams (and frankly I think wotc could have done it far better than they did, flavor wise). You could also add in sorta removal by adding in the ability to flip back over the opponents unmorphed cards, maybe, banishing things back to the dream.

[r2d2go]

I really like Manifest as well, but I think we need to choose either Manifest or Kamigawa-Flipping, or we get confusion between the two types of flipping over. Personally, I like the kamigawa-flipping just because with a Dream sub/super type, it is a very obvious representation of dreams while still allowing variety between things, instead of always 2/2s. Still, if a lot of the cards were to be enchantments like Rageform, that could be cool, but I think many of them would need to say "Enchant Manifested Creature" to balance it when it flips and allow more cost-effective dream creatures. And even if that did work out, we just had a set with lots of Manifest

I'm not quite sold on the flavor of flipping. Does it represent real objects and creatures becoming dreams and vice versa?

The way I was using it, the original object/creature is generally "real", and flipping it makes it a "dream". This is further represented both by becoming a new type (enchantment) and gaining the Dream super/sub type (still not decided on what Dream would be).

In my two examples earlier, they were both creature -> enchantment, but you could do the other way around or something different as well. For example:

Sophia's Presence 1WW
Enchantment - R
At the beginning of each turn, gain 2 life.
When you have 10 or more life more than your starting total, transform ~.
In the Material, she is a comfort.

Sophia, Dreamweaver Angel
Creature - Angel Dream R
Flying, Lifelink, Vigilance
~ can only be blocked by Dreams, and only takes combat damage from Dreams.
When dreaming, she is a savior.
3/7

[Blue Ghost]

We can use manifest as a jumping-off point, not necessarily as the exact mechanic to go to. Part of the reason manifest worked was because of its combination with morph. If we're using manifest as-is, we'll also want to have morph or a variant thereof. We could use morph, or we could use a riff of manifest that doesn't require facedown cards. Maybe "Reveal the top card of your library. If it's an enchantment, put it onto the battlefield." Or something?

How does people turning into dreams make sense?

[r2d2go]

How does people turning into dreams make sense?

It's not so much people turning into dreams, as them falling asleep and their dream-consciousness influencing the world. Or, people entering the dreamworld, thus no longer having a physical influence and instead having a dream-influence. Also, I think you ninja'd my edit, so I wrote a bit on that in my previous post