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Thread: Erfworld 72, page 66
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2007-08-16, 08:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 72, Page 66
Parson looks like he discovered it's real people he is croaking with his actions and plans. Maybe he starts the "moral issues" Stanley wanted to avoid in the first place.
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2007-08-16, 08:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 72, Page 66
Parson: She loves Ansom?
Stanley: She hates me?
Priceless!
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2007-08-16, 08:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 72, Page 66
I'm going to make a stab at what I think the big secret is....
I've been thinking this ever since Zamussels was first being interrogated.
I think Wanda and Zamussels are sisters. That's why she'll never turn on Wanda. That's why they were so 'sociable'. That's why Zamussels hates Stanley and is in the war in the first place. That's why Wanda knows that Zamussels is a royal. They're both royals from the so-called-extinct Croatan tribe. One became a barbarian, the other became a Croakamancer.
I don't know why else she would NEVER betray Wanda, since in any other case, she'd hate her as much as she hates Stanley after being tortured by Wanda.
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2007-08-16, 08:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 72, Page 66
I'm sorry, I'm a big fan of the comic, and I'm sure it takes a lot of time and effort, etc, etc... but is it just me, or is the artwork this week quite a bit below the usual standard of quality?
I dunno... the whole thing just looks rushed and rough to me. *shrug*
Good comic though, all in all.
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2007-08-16, 08:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 72, Page 66
61% is a bit low. If every attack you make is only 61% then you will never rank your units because they will always be dying off before they get too high. You do not make 61% attacks unless you absolutely have to, which is actually true in this case.
This highlights that fact that if Jillian went the three hexes into the fort, picked up the three warlords and returned to the dwagons (they have exactly enough move, except for the one gwiffon which they could leave behind on the way and pick up later) they could dispatch the three warlords without much difficulty. That is what [I]should[I] happen, but we'll see if this spell on Jilllian interferes in some way.
Edit: actually, Parson should be ordering an attack in order to prevent this scenario, but perhaps he is relying on Wanda.Last edited by Vreejack; 2007-08-16 at 08:27 AM.
Illimir orc monk avatar by yours, truly. He seems to be looking for his cigarettes.
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2007-08-16, 08:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 72, Page 66
LGBTitP Supporter
In a Wonderland they lie, Dreaming as the days go by, Dreaming as the summers die - Ever drifting down the stream - Lingering in the golden gleam - Life, what is it, but a dream?
- Lewis Carroll
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2007-08-16, 08:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 72, Page 66
That concept doesn't apply to Erfworlders.
It looks to me like the usual mix of relatively rough where fine elements don't much matter and more detailed where they do (e.g. the expressions in panels 4 & 10-11).Last edited by SteveMB; 2007-08-16 at 08:42 AM. Reason: Additional reply without double-post
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2007-08-16, 08:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 72, Page 66
"That's not right, that's not even wrong."
"This is not an idea to be tossed aside lightly, it should be thrown with great force."
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2007-08-16, 09:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 72, Page 66
Also, I'm a little troubled by how the game mechanics and unit strengths seem to fluctuate a lot depending on what's convenient for storytelling. I guess they'd have to, but still, wounded or not, it seems a little off to me that all those dragons could be "totally wiped out" just like that by a half a dozen units with just a single warlord.
Well, see the Tool's own interpretation of the matter:
"I thought everyone in the world was coming to kill us."
"That alone is a sign of greatness. When everyone is out to get you, you must be doing something right."Last edited by SteveMB; 2007-08-16 at 09:04 AM. Reason: Additional reply without double-post
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2007-08-16, 09:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 72, Page 66
The spells terminology would probably be a tad less loose in a tabletop version of the game - something like allowing the other player to overrule an attack for 1d3(s) turns or something, with the random element giving the spell a not-entirely-predicable duration.
And if it's a video game, the rule would probably be quite a bit more involved mathetically, (taking into account chances of other warlords in the stack influencing the afflicted) since that's what video-games do best.Last edited by TheTurnipKing; 2007-08-16 at 09:06 AM.
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2007-08-16, 09:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 72, Page 66
They're not sisters, they are lovers. In a BDSM girl/girl relationship.
And since Jillian is the submissive, she is (slightly) more likely to be bi rather than full-on lesbian. Thus her love/hate relationship with Ansom.
Wanda, OTOH, plays only for the girl's softball league. Except when she needs something from Stanley.Thanks to Ceika (X2), Yeril, Holammer and Dr. Bath for the Avatars!
New Avatar, new form of self-destruction! Ceika is Beyond Awesome!
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2007-08-16, 09:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 72, Page 66
I have to admit, I gave a little "aww" when Stanley said he hates Jillian too.
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2007-08-16, 09:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 72, Page 66
Another great part of the story is building up. Parson's chances of survival are only 39%, that seems kinda bad, but maybe that is with all of his dead and only one of Jillians units left alive, who knows for sure though.
And the Jillian and Wanda thing I thought was more to do with being a lover of some sort to each other, never imagined it as being related.
It'll be nice to see how Jillian talks her way out of this, after all, which of the four are willing to die to try and kill off all the dragons with such low chances for a successful battle that has all the Archons and Jillian surviving the fight.
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2007-08-16, 09:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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2007-08-16, 09:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 72, Page 66
I agree on the
"Parson's suddenly realised it's not just a game. People have feelings/soul"
and the
"Wanda and Jillian are sisters"
Suggestions.
---
A good move for Jillian (if it's at all possible) would be to engage the dragons with the mercs and then bail out herself leaving the arcons at <69% chance to win. A backstab if you will. Not only would that mean that the dragons (probably) survive, it would also save her from having to explain the "spell" the arcons found on her.
Problem is rationalisation. She would have to invent a "let's split up our forces! You take the dragons, i do something else" scenario to be able to cope with that i believe.
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2007-08-16, 09:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 72, Page 66
Rationalization powers, go!
"It would just shatter Ansom's ego if I croaked the dwagons he was after. Sure, he that's what he ordered, but he was really trying to find a face-saving way of getting me to rescue him. I'll take my lumps for disobedience, but it's what he really wanted."
"We could lose this fight! Probably won't, but if we attack now and don't inflict heavy casualties, they'll capture Ansom and the war's over. Even though we'll probably win, it's not a good risk compared to just merging with Ansom's forces."
"Why would the dwagons be over a lake hex, when that's the first place flying units would check? It must be an illusion! If we charge in, we'll be playing right into some sort of trap."
"Oh no! I just remembered I promised not to leave that hex until the scouts I sent off came back! How did I forget? I am filled with remorse. I'd better go back and keep my word."
"Compromise! We'll do both. I'll take half our forces to rescue Ansom, you attack the dwagons with the rest. What could go wrong?"
"You archons are acting suspicious. I bet you're really working for Stanley. You want me to attack so you can turn on me and stab me in the back. Well, it won't work. As of this moment, you are my prisoners, and I will escort you to Lord Ansom for trial."
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2007-08-16, 09:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 72, Page 66
Everyone is assuming that Wanda said 'Indeed' in response to both Stanley and Paron's questions. Parson is in the background, and the tool is in the fore. Parson's question is the top question, which places it first in order. Stanley's is second. Wanda gives only two rules Jillian will follow.
Did Wanda really only answer Stanley's question? She hate's Stanely, that's for sure. Does the 'not hurt her love' rule refer only to Wanda (not Ansom)? This would make sense in regards to Wanda's line about not hurting Wanda's position, and explain why Jillian will not change allegiance.
The conversation makes more sense if you leave Anson out.
Jillian hates the tool, and will not switch sides (will not attack her ruler). This answers Stanley's demand that Wanda make Jillian switch sides initially. Jillian will not serve under Stanley.
Jillian loves Wanda, and cannot do anything to hurt her. This dictates that she cannot destroy the dwagons. Doing so would drastically hurt Wanda's chances of survival.
Which brings it to Wanda's last comment, "She will be unable to act."
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2007-08-16, 09:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 72, Page 66
He knew this back when he started talking to Sizemore, Bogroll and Misty. They're people involved - in a turn-based game, yes, but they still have personalities, histories, wants, needs... It's no stretch that pretty much every sentient unit's like that.
"Wanda and Jillian are sisters"May you get EXACTLY what you wish for.
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2007-08-16, 09:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 72, Page 66
The first one might be true, but it isn't the first time he's been told that one of the characters feels love for another. Admittedly, it possible that the point just didn't sink in the first time, perhaps because he'd had less exposure to Erfworld -- in particular, less interaction with Sizemore, who he calls "my friend" (sincerely, IMO).
The second one is a concept that, again, simply does not apply to Erfworlders:
Originally Posted by Parson's Klog
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2007-08-16, 09:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 72, Page 66
You're assuming its pass fail. Its 61% for completely wiping them out. Probably a 20% chance of major damage but some survivors, 9 percent chance of it going unfavorably for Jillian. If I remember correctly she can withdraw, so she could do some damage and take off before her side takes casualties.
Last edited by glenndo; 2007-08-16 at 09:43 AM.
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2007-08-16, 09:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 72, Page 66
This one only served to add weight to my Plaid Princess Hypothisis.
Whilst also serving to further muddy the waters Re The W/J/A Situation.
I for one am looking foward to finding out exactly what she comes up with to avoid attacking the Dwagons.
Also I am of the opinion that the spell seen by the Archons isn't the one placed by Wanda to influence Jillian (shes far too canny to leave a magic of that type in plain view) rather it is a mask of said spell perhaps showing some sort of buff effect.Exploding nuns, just what everyone needs...
Never were truer words spoken ThorFluff
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2007-08-16, 09:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 72, Page 66
I find it a tad slow-moving at this point, but it's still a nice strip. Like Stanley's reactions and the hard, confident look on Wanda's face in panel 6. The emotional power that Wanda holds is truly scary. I wonder if it's the result of something simple like a spell or of repeated and extensive conditioning or something deeper. Extreme Stockholm syndrome?
Last edited by Ink; 2007-08-16 at 09:55 AM.
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2007-08-16, 09:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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2007-08-16, 10:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 72, page 66
Jillian - and while it was implied, it was never explicitly stated.
The big question is, will the archons accept Jillian's arguments, or will she end up making some kind of deliberate-accidental tactical blunder and getting herself captured short of a win? I know if I were one of the Archons, I'd be getting on the horn with Ansom (so to speak) PDQ.Don't bother trying to appeal to my better nature; I don't have one.
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2007-08-16, 10:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 72, Page 66
This strip shows us some of the subtleties of real war. It also shows that Zamussel's force and Parson's dwagons are almost perfectly balanced in terms of attack and defense stats. If they weren't, the outcome would be certain, with only the time required to reach that outcome varying in inverse proportion to the margin of advantage of the stronger side. (This is assuming that Parson's gauntlet takes as many variables as possible into consideration: perhaps dwagons have an 'awe opponent' stat that lowers enemy attack stats; perhaps morale plays a role; etc.)
We also learn a bit about the Archons here. Jillian can kill a (wounded) dwagon with a single blow; and gwiffons can damage dwagons, but both were neutralized with single counter-blows (the gwiffon being killed instantly, with Jillian wounded/stunned and captured). So lets say that means 1 gwiffon=1/2 dwagon and Jillian=1 dwagon. Her current force of 5 gwiffons and herself would equal 3 1/2 dwagons. But the dwagons she's facing are wounded (let's say at half strength). She and her gwiffons now equal 7 dwagons. That leaves 12 wounded dwagons for the 3 unwounded Archons. These assumptions, along with the closeness of the odds, suggest that 1 Archon=2 dwagons. Pretty substantial combat power I'd say.
About the subtleties of war: Parson knows he's at a slight but distinct disadvantage in combat power. He also knows he has to conserve his dwagons if at all possible. He knows the commander of the enemy force is under some sort of compulsion from Wanda. He trusts Wanda, so he doesn't attack (which would make battle certain) but he doesn't withdraw either. He's giving Wanda a chance to prove herself. He's taking a risk, but he has apparently decided that the potential reward is worth the risk.
Jillian is hesitating. Lacking a mathamancy artifact, she may not realise she has an advantage (however slight). She is under a compulsion that supposedly will make her look for excuses to not attack. The reward of hastening the end of the war might not be worth the risk of attacking right now and she could probably justify her actions quit easily. After all, her boss takes pains to conserve and protect the units under his command. It's hard to see how he could fault her for doing the same, especially if she couched her argument in terms of not risking the Archons. Who nows how Charlie might react to his Archons being squandered carelessly?Last edited by AngryAngel; 2007-08-16 at 11:42 AM. Reason: spelling
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2007-08-16, 10:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 72, page 66
An update! Yay!
Stanley is cute. "She hates me? Well I hate her too! "Hark! An avatar drawn by Kate Beaton!
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2007-08-16, 10:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 72, Page 66
Supposition :
Wanda poped a royal from the croatan tribe
Jillian poped a royal from the croatan tribe
Thus they are "related". We could call them sisters or half sisters or something similar. Not technically but in essence.
I'm game for that theory too, I've been suspecting it for a long time. Now it could be a subjective biais on my behalf to only see what suits my intuition, time will tell :)
PS : I loved the "I hate her too" :D
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2007-08-16, 10:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 72, Page 66
Ideally, Ansom's side would have a large number of low-value units -- with the dwagons seriously wounded, what counts is getting the few more hitsies needed to croak each of them.
As it is, Ansom's side has a few high-value units. They'll want to spread their attacks as widely as possible. As I noted earlier, we've seen a dwagon attack two woodsy elves at once; the question is whether any of Jillian's units have the ability to attack two dwagons at once (a sweep-by strike with the BFS?).
About the subtleties of war: Parson knows he's at a slight but distinct disadvantage in combat power. He also knows he has to conserve his dwagons if at all possible. He knows the commander of the enemy force is under some sort of compulsion from Wanda. He trusts Wanda, so he doesn't attack (which would make battle certain) but he doesn't withdraw either.
Jillian is hesitating. Lacking a mathamancy artifact, she may not realise she has an advantage (however slight). She is under a compulsion that supposedly will make her look for excuses to not attack. The reward of hastening the end of the war might not be worth the risk of attacking right now and she could probably justify her actions quit easily. After all, her boss takes pains to conserve and protect the units under his command. It's hard to see how he could take her to task for doing the same, especially if she couched her argument in terms of not risking the Archons. Who nows how Charlie might react to his Archons being squandered carelessly?Last edited by SteveMB; 2007-08-16 at 10:29 AM.
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2007-08-16, 10:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 72, Page 66
Heh. All depends on how far into the red Parson brought the dwagons. Lets suppose they normally have 500 hps. A stack of them at full health would be freakin' huge and hard to wipe out.
However, suppose that each of them is REALLY far in the red, say 20 hps. Suddenly the 19 dwagons collectively have less hps than even one dragon has at full health. So instead of needing to whack away at 1 dwagon for a while, each of the 8 units may be able to take out a dwagon per attack. Which might mean that given 3 rounds of combat, all the dwagons could be killed.
I'm not saying that this is what will happen, but I think that it illustrates why the unit strength didn't necessarily fluctuate. I personally figure that parson could win, but no matter HOW good he does, he will lose some dwagons to an attack like I just described.78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.
(Stranded on the first layer of Baator seemed to work just fine )
Avatar by Dan Shive from El Goonish Shive.
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2007-08-16, 10:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 72, Page 66
He can't withdraw now. It's still on Ansom's turn.
I wonder if Jillian might do something extreme, like turn around and attack the Archons. She has no love for them. Perhaps she tries to explain and rationalise her way out of things, they accuse her further of being under the enemy's influence and a traitor, they move to attack the dwagons, and she flies into a barbarian rage and attacks them. She goes back to Ansom and reports: didn't find dwagons.Last edited by Ink; 2007-08-16 at 10:35 AM.