Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge in the Playground XCI

[Venger]

Sorry for butting in here, but I think I should that this is incorrect.

Not only are the Hivemind rules in BoVD explicitly referred to as variant rules, they are also always called "Hivemind," whereas the Dark Speech effect in EE(The most recent one as I recall) creates a "hive mind," which is specifically called out in core's entry on the swarm subtype. So Karl's objections are strictly correct as far as I can tell, and the Dark Speech/Hivemind thing is good and dead.

You are wrong.

All new rules are introduced as variant rules. Prestige classes are variant rules. Everything in that chapter of bovd being titled "variant rules" doesn't change the fact that it's normal RAW of the game.

Darrin and Piggy Knowles have done a more than thorough job of explaining his mistakes.

[Heliomance]

Okay, let's stop that argument right there. This is clearly an ambiguous area of ruling, which means that judges have a large amount of discretion in whether they want to score it as working or not.

Personally I'm inclined to believe that it probably does work as Rattenfanger wants it to, but I don't currently have time to pore over the books to make an official ruling I'm afraid. Nonetheless, this argument is getting acrimonious, and I've actually had a PM asking me to step in and stop it. I know it sucks, being told that your build doesn't work when you're sure it does, especially when you may well be right, but please remember that this is a silly forum contest with no actual prize and that, in the grand scheme of things, it really doesn't matter.

My instinct is to curtail the judging process there - we have two judges, the dispute process has got as far as is likely to be useful, I think we're done here. Unfortunately, I'm away for the weekend, and won't be able to do the reveal until Sunday evening at the earliest. My apologies.

[Venger]

Fine by me.

[FoxWyrd]

Just checking, but when will the next contest be posted?

[daremetoidareyo]

Just checking, but when will the next contest be posted?

Most likely after the reveal on sunday.

[Venger]

Yeah, probably. What are you guys hoping for? I could go for a cwar type ingredient, as mentioned upthread.

[The Viscount]

CWar is very fun, I'd also be down for anything out of OA.
The nonstandard level classes could be a fun time, though a few would be difficult to enter more than one or two ways. I could go for True necromancer's Drow cousin Yathrinshee.

[Zaq]

Part of me is looking forward to Shaper of Form, though I know it’s kind of going to be a rules nightmare. And, you know, as godawful as all of the Dragon Compendium ingredients (Fleet Runner? Osteomancer? Flux Adept?) in its own special way.

I could go for a noncasting ingredient.

Do we have any interesting PrCs from Magic of Incarnum left unused?

I don’t personally feel much like cooking with what I’m about to say, but other chefs tend to create wonderful things with those “why exactly does this exist?” PrCs from Forgotten Realms books.

Maybe something 3.0? Was King/Queen of the Wild officially turned into something 3.5?

[Venger]

Part of me is looking forward to Shaper of Form, though I know it’s kind of going to be a rules nightmare. And, you know, as godawful as all of the Dragon Compendium ingredients (Fleet Runner? Osetomancer? Flux Adept?) in its own special way.

I could go for a noncasting ingredient.

I could have sworn we already did shaper of form, but that doesn't seem to conform with objective reality.

After a casting ingredient I would also like a noncasting ingredient.

I don’t personally feel much like cooking with what I’m about to say, but other chefs tend to create wonderful things with those “why exactly does this exist?” PrCs from Forgotten Realms books.

Maybe something 3.0? Was King/Queen of the Wild officially turned into something 3.5?

How dare you make me read this with my own eyes.

I don't think it was ever updated. It's like some horrible cross between horizon walker and animal lord, but is somehow even more worthless than both of them put together.

If we get that, I will post a nice neat table so you can actually compare the class features to each other and decide what you want to do.

[Zaq]

I could have sworn we already did shaper of form, but that doesn't seem to conform with objective reality.

After a casting ingredient I would also like a noncasting ingredient.


How dare you make me read this with my own eyes.

I don't think it was ever updated. It's like some horrible cross between horizon walker and animal lord, but is somehow even more worthless than both of them put together.

If we get that, I will post a nice neat table so you can actually compare the class features to each other and decide what you want to do.

It's remarkably useless. It's also one of the few PrCs where you can explicitly take the first level multiple times in multiple iterations, which seems like it has the potential to be nonsensical. You'll also notice that there's some jankiness in the rules above and beyond the features being pointless. Like Terrain Camouflage being a full-round action that, um, apparently gives you a bonus? But it's unclear how long this bonus lasts for, and it doesn't seem like actually hiding is included in that action. So you spend a full round to turn it on, and then . . . I guess it's just on forever, because nothing says that it ever stops? But yeah, just the features being useless is itself kind of glorious. And horrible. (Detect Animals and Plants is a 1st level spell. I know, let's give that out a limited number of times per day as a 6th level class feature that cannot be accessed before ECL 11!)

I was looking at Divine Agent from MotP, and while it seems far too GM-dependent for a proper SI, it’s a fascinatingly bad PrC. Half of the class features are, to be far more generous than they deserve, flavor ribbons at best, but they’re bafflingly presented as though they’re full features. Your deity can contact you in ways that you have no control over and tell you what to do! Your appearance changes in a vague way with no listed mechanical effect! You don’t have to have a specified alignment to get in, but it forcibly shifts to match your deity’s at 8th level for some reason! It feels very Thunder Guide-esque.

[The Viscount]

We do have some interesting PrCs from MoI we haven't used yet.
Most of them I'd say are too good to be proper Iron Chef ingredients, with one exception.
Spinemeld Warrior is a horrible meldshaper (thought still somehow better than an equal number of soulborn levels) and it makes me sad. It's also the only 3.5 class I've seen that thought level titles were so important they deserved a spot on the chart.

[WhamBamSam]

I have a few stubs ready for Spinemeld Warrior filed away next to my ideas for Shining Blade of Heironeous in my emergency bunker. One of them probably doesn't actually work the way I want it to, but I actually like it enough that I might throw caution to the wind and submit it anyway.

Were I not currently on my phone, I'd just copy/paste the list of classes that I post every round. I'm still looking forward to all of them. At least I made it through a round without adding two more classes that I'd like to see for once.

[Venger]

It's remarkably useless. It's also one of the few PrCs where you can explicitly take the first level multiple times in multiple iterations, which seems like it has the potential to be nonsensical. You'll also notice that there's some jankiness in the rules above and beyond the features being pointless. Like Terrain Camouflage being a full-round action that, um, apparently gives you a bonus? But it's unclear how long this bonus lasts for, and it doesn't seem like actually hiding is included in that action. So you spend a full round to turn it on, and then . . . I guess it's just on forever, because nothing says that it ever stops? But yeah, just the features being useless is itself kind of glorious. And horrible. (Detect Animals and Plants is a 1st level spell. I know, let's give that out a limited number of times per day as a 6th level class feature that cannot be accessed before ECL 11!)

I was looking at Divine Agent from MotP, and while it seems far too GM-dependent for a proper SI, it’s a fascinatingly bad PrC. Half of the class features are, to be far more generous than they deserve, flavor ribbons at best, but they’re bafflingly presented as though they’re full features. Your deity can contact you in ways that you have no control over and tell you what to do! Your appearance changes in a vague way with no listed mechanical effect! You don’t have to have a specified alignment to get in, but it forcibly shifts to match your deity’s at 8th level for some reason! It feels very Thunder Guide-esque.

Having your camo last forever is the least this awful class does for you.

I especially love the especially abhorrent, characteristically 3.0 choice of only letting me turn on my fom in one huge undifferentiated lump instead of flipping it on or off as needed throughout my day's activities. It's not like I'm expected to kill people in the woods 4 times a day or anything.

I don't really see how divine agent is too gm-dependent, but the ambiguity wafting off it is super weird. I think it's most noteworthy in your "godly gifts." it says they're slas, but only "usually." Um, what? What else can I get?

Also there's a list of what I lose when I fall, but not how I fall.

I have an idea for what to do with divine agent, but king/queen of the wild is really throwing me for a loop. I didn't think I'd find a class worse than animal lord.

[Zaq]

We do have some interesting PrCs from MoI we haven't used yet.
Most of them I'd say are too good to be proper Iron Chef ingredients, with one exception.
Spinemeld Warrior is a horrible meldshaper (thought still somehow better than an equal number of soulborn levels) and it makes me sad. It's also the only 3.5 class I've seen that thought level titles were so important they deserved a spot on the chart.

There are some unfortunate patterns that pop up in racially-locked SIs, but at least the entry prereqs are pretty much wide open aside from the racial component. Unfortunately, even with the wide-open prereqs, I'm not convinced that the class's abilities are flexible enough to let the dishes do much to stand out from one another. I've been wrong before, though.

Looking more through MotW (some really interesting and also really crappy PrCs in the Guidebook To books, my word!), Bane of Infidels is both fascinating and confusing. It'd be straight up impossible to do in Iron Chef because it has Leadership as a prereq (and it'd be kind of weird to do a 10/10 casting class), but still, look at it. To call the abilities random is to flatter them greatly. Oh boy, a 1/day ability to make targets in a single square take 1d4 fire damage per class level, save negates! The ability to grant followers a weird semi-rage buff, but with a bizarre name! The ability to "discern the affected spell and necessary sacrifice of any standing stone" as a free action? (The hell?) The Wicker Man ability is kind of interesting, and it's clearly why the Pyre ability exists, but it doesn't explain why the Pyre ability is so limited or so crappy. It's just a plain weird PrC.

Other weird 3.0 PrCs:

Knight of the Middle Circle is an unlikely candidate (if for no other reason than that Fatemaker offers unique casting as well), but it's bizarre. It's a seriously bad case of "5 level PrC (if that) being stretched out over 10 levels for some reason,” and I've never actually seen a PrC with casting quite like that. Damn shame that it doesn't actually do anything interesting or even terribly coherent. They do seem to be one of the few cases where you can have a class grant you a spell for which you have a caster level of 0 without even doing any shenanigans to tank your own CL, since a level 1 KotMC has 0 (not —) 1st level spells per day but a caster level of 1/2 his class level, and we all know that D&D rounds down.

Outlaw of the Crimson Road would be interesting if it didn't grant Leadership. It's basically a crappier Rogue in nearly every respect, so it'd be kind of frustratingly similar to Fatemaker, but Fatemaker gave us some darned interesting dishes, so that's something.

I want badly to like Royal Explorer, but everything it has is basically just a form of smallish numerical bonus or an otherwise passive ability. I feel like it would make interesting stories and less than thrilling dishes.

Master Samurai is just bloody confusing. Six (!) feats to get in, an inexplicable +2 on Tumble for some inscrutable reason, an incredibly weird and poorly worded ability in the form of "Blades of Fury," a few other minor abilities that are basically feats or close to it, and then suddenly six levels where you just get uses of two specific day-limited abilities that are underpowered in the extreme. I don't get it. At all.

Ninja of the Crescent Moon has truly obnoxious prereqs and has relatively few unique abilities, but it does at least mostly have active abilities that you can proactively show off, and the use-limited ones mostly at least have semi-decent uses per day.

Fist of Hextor is three abilities over ten levels. I don't want to cook with it, but it's worth gawking at how stupidly designed it is. One could make a not-entirely-unserious argument that it was, in fact, updated to 3.5 in the form of Shining Blade.

Gladiator doesn't do much that's unique or that's worth doing (honestly, giving out half of their abilities for free wouldn't seem overpowered), but it has amusing prereqs.

Red Avenger is basically "the Factotum, only WIS-based and way crappier." And an impressively tiny skill list, for that matter.

[Thurbane]

It's also the only 3.5 class I've seen that thought level titles were so important they deserved a spot on the chart.

I know there's at least one other. I thought it was Fochlucan Lyricist, but apparently not.

As for the mentioned ingredients, I'd be happy to see Divine Agent, King/Queen of the Wild or Shaper of Form. And, of course, my standing request for Dragon Samurai.

[Venger]

those classes are all offensively terrible, but I can at least definitively say we're safe from ninja of the crescent moon, since it was updated into 3.5 base ninja.

[Zaq]

Having your camo last forever is the least this awful class does for you.

I especially love the especially abhorrent, characteristically 3.0 choice of only letting me turn on my fom in one huge undifferentiated lump instead of flipping it on or off as needed throughout my day's activities. It's not like I'm expected to kill people in the woods 4 times a day or anything.

I don't really see how divine agent is too gm-dependent, but the ambiguity wafting off it is super weird. I think it's most noteworthy in your "godly gifts." it says they're slas, but only "usually." Um, what? What else can I get?

Also there's a list of what I lose when I fall, but not how I fall.

I have an idea for what to do with divine agent, but king/queen of the wild is really throwing me for a loop. I didn't think I'd find a class worse than animal lord.

Divine Agent is GM-dependent because Contact has something of an effect but it's an effect that you have zero control over, and more importantly, it's far too vague about what "Godly Gift" actually gives you for something that seems like a semi-major class feature. If it's ruled to just be "you get one of the domain spells of an appropriate level as an SLA 1/day," that's at least a little less ambiguous, but it sounds like the character really isn't supposed to pick the gift. (Also, bonus horribleness: it's not a spell from one of the deity's domains—it's a spell from one of the Divine Agent's domains. Meaning that you have to have access to the domain in question in order to be given a spell from it as a gift. So unless you're doing shenanigans with the spell in question being treated as a spell-like ability rather than as an actual spell, it'll be nearly impossible for the ability to be stronger than simply being able to cast the spell naturally, which the half-casting nature of Divine Agent will probably cost you.)

I agree about the FoM capstone of K/QotW being hilariously obnoxious in its "nope, only once per day, and then you're just going to have it on" parceling. And of course, because this wasn't insulting enough, it's a (Su) ability without a listed action cost, and we all know what that means. (Same with Adaptation, which doesn't seem to have a way to be turned off? It's worded such that, if you can turn it off, you can divide it up a bit, but it doesn't say if or how you can turn it off.)

I was all set to do something stupid with Terrain Movement, but then I noticed the "if the chosen terrain is land-based" clause, and then I became sad.

[Falontani]

non casting classes from Tome of Magic are always fun

[Venger]

Divine Agent is GM-dependent because Contact has something of an effect but it's an effect that you have zero control over, and more importantly, it's far too vague about what "Godly Gift" actually gives you for something that seems like a semi-major class feature. If it's ruled to just be "you get one of the domain spells of an appropriate level as an SLA 1/day," that's at least a little less ambiguous, but it sounds like the character really isn't supposed to pick the gift. (Also, bonus horribleness: it's not a spell from one of the deity's domains—it's a spell from one of the Divine Agent's domains. Meaning that you have to have access to the domain in question in order to be given a spell from it as a gift. So unless you're doing shenanigans with the spell in question being treated as a spell-like ability rather than as an actual spell, it'll be nearly impossible for the ability to be stronger than simply being able to cast the spell naturally, which the half-casting nature of Divine Agent will probably cost you.)

You've got me there. I really like how the deity won't bother you with spam when it might matter like in combat or when you're eavesdropping on the bad guy's plans "most of the time." It's like medani prophet, except it doesn't do anything.

I missed that godly gift only gave you a spell you already had. that's horrific. That said, I think it's a bit more interesting than kqotw, but I see your point.

I agree about the FoM capstone of K/QotW being hilariously obnoxious in its "nope, only once per day, and then you're just going to have it on" parceling. And of course, because this wasn't insulting enough, it's a (Su) ability without a listed action cost, and we all know what that means. (Same with Adaptation, which doesn't seem to have a way to be turned off? It's worded such that, if you can turn it off, you can divide it up a bit, but it doesn't say if or how you can turn it off.)

I was all set to do something stupid with Terrain Movement, but then I noticed the "if the chosen terrain is land-based" clause, and then I became sad.

I really like how if you pick sky, you get like a million pretty decent feats (compared to the others, I mean), but it just assumes a 3.0 character can natively fly somehow. No, it doesn't give you the ability to fly. Why would it?

[WhamBamSam]

King/Queen of the Wild is hot garbage, or I guess garbage of whatever temperature is appropriate for your chosen terrain.

Most of the rest at least give one mildly interesting thing if you look carefully enough, but yeah, I pretty much agree with the above assessments.

those classes are all offensively terrible, but I can at least definitively say we're safe from ninja of the crescent moon, since it was updated into 3.5 base ninja.

Was it really? That's something of a shame. I actually sort of like Ninja of the Crescent Moon, certainly more than I do the base Ninja for most traditionally Ninja-related things. Opportunist at least is fairly unique (I was a bit disappointed in myself for not getting any of my Twist Target+Opportunist builds off the ground back in Twisted Lord).

[Venger]

Was it really? That's something of a shame. I actually sort of like Ninja of the Crescent Moon, certainly more than I do the base Ninja for most traditionally Ninja-related things. Opportunist at least is fairly unique (I was a bit disappointed in myself for not getting any of my Twist Target+Opportunist builds off the ground back in Twisted Lord).

Yeah, it was. Unless we make like crimson scourges and get special dispensation to use it, it's updated 3.0 content.

I agree that it's kind of cool since it only wastes 10 levels of your build instead of 20. Like most of the oa classes, it doesn't really do anything, but it does have a lot of cool little abilities.

opportunist is just as the rogue ability, unless I'm missing something?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Yeah, it was. Unless we make like crimson scourges and get special dispensation to use it, it's updated 3.0 content.

I agree that it's kind of cool since it only wastes 10 levels of your build instead of 20. Like most of the oa classes, it doesn't really do anything, but it does have a lot of cool little abilities.

opportunist is just as the rogue ability, unless I'm missing something?

Hate to be a nuisance but do you have a source for that? I'd really like to see it as an ingredient.

[Venger]

Hate to be a nuisance but do you have a source for that? I'd really like to see it as an ingredient.

It's fine. Perfectly reasonable question. It's part of the 3.0 to 3.5 update

I think it would be kind of a fun ingredient too

[WhamBamSam]

Yeah, it was. Unless we make like crimson scourges and get special dispensation to use it, it's updated 3.0 content.

I agree that it's kind of cool since it only wastes 10 levels of your build instead of 20. Like most of the oa classes, it doesn't really do anything, but it does have a lot of cool little abilities.

opportunist is just as the rogue ability, unless I'm missing something?

Huh, I never noticed that before. Perhaps I should pay more attention to the later levels of base classes. Still, even with tricky entry requirements, Ninja of the Crescent Moon 6 represented a less steep opportunity cost than Rogue 10 in most cases. I don't suppose there's any easier way of picking up a Rogue special ability?

[Kelb_Panthera]

It's fine. Perfectly reasonable question. It's part of the 3.0 to 3.5 update

I think it would be kind of a fun ingredient too

Yeah, not seeing sword and fist in that link...?

[Venger]

Yeah, not seeing sword and fist in that link...?

here you go ninja of the crescent moon -> ninja

Huh, I never noticed that before. Perhaps I should pay more attention to the later levels of base classes. Still, even with tricky entry requirements, Ninja of the Crescent Moon 6 represented a less steep opportunity cost than Rogue 10 in most cases. I don't suppose there's any easier way of picking up a Rogue special ability?

there's a couple, but I want to jealously guard them in case it's the next SI. I'll pm you

[Thurbane]

Yeah, it's not called in that link or those update booklets; there's an article somewhere in the archives that calls out what classes etc. have been updated in 3.5.

Some people take it with a grain of salt, since it's not "technically" errata.

Here we go: Feats, Prestige Classes, and Spells

[Kelb_Panthera]

here you go ninja of the crescent moon -> ninja



there's a couple, but I want to jealously guard them in case it's the next SI. I'll pm you

Yeah, it's not called in that link or those update booklets; there's an article somewhere in the archives that calls out what classes etc. have been updated in 3.5.

Some people take it with a grain of salt, since it's not "technically" errata.

Here we go: Feats, Prestige Classes, and Spells

Thank you both. Having give it a once-over, I will now promptly ignore its existence in my own game but it's good to know for forum discussion.

Edit: Derp! I was totally thinking of the ninja spy from OA. Also, is it me or was NotCM strictly superior to the ninja base class they made it into?

[Heliomance]

There is a lot of Dragon Compendium in my potential ingredients list.

I havn't come across King/Queen of the Wild before, I shall have to look it up. What I'm hearing is I need to browse through the 3.0 books a lot more.

those classes are all offensively terrible, but I can at least definitively say we're safe from ninja of the crescent moon, since it was updated into 3.5 base ninja.

Oh my sweet summer child. That doesn't make you safe.

[Venger]

Thank you both. Having give it a once-over, I will now promptly ignore its existence in my own game but it's good to know for forum discussion.

Edit: Derp! I was totally thinking of the ninja spy from OA. Also, is it me or was NotCM strictly superior to the ninja base class they made it into?

I love ninja spy. No, it's not just you.

There is a lot of Dragon Compendium in my potential ingredients list.

I havn't come across King/Queen of the Wild before, I shall have to look it up. What I'm hearing is I need to browse through the 3.0 books a lot more.



Oh my sweet summer child. That doesn't make you safe.

Now that's what I call a culinary curveball.

I'd better dig my bamboo mat out of the kitchen drawer and think of some good side dishes.