Avengers: Infinity War

[Ramza00]

For the people talking about resource scarcity I give you this.



So does Thanos remove the yellow snakes when he snaps his fingers, but keeping the other color snakes? Or is it a 50/50 of all snakes irrespective of the color of the snakes?

[AvatarVecna]

Don't you guys get it? The purge just works.

[LaZodiac]

Don't you guys get it? The purge just works.

(the joke here being the government literally has to send death squads to enforce the Purge because otherwise it explicitly doesn't work. Which makes me think Thanos is definitely enforcing his rule on the planets he cuts in half, as an aside).

[AvatarVecna]

Killing 50% of all life just doesn't make sense. Thanos takes a seat at the end of the movie as if everything is alright in the universe now. How does vanishing a random 50% of every planetary population in the universe actually solve the problem of resource scarcity?

Someone mentioned the Black Plague earlier. Did that prevent humans from overcrowding the planet and depleting its resource? No. Of course not.

Thanos appears to be motivated by a desire to eradicate suffering caused by resource strain. That's... a strange goal for a villain willing to kill off half the universe. Won't people be suffering now because of their lost loved ones? Hasn't Gamora been suffering her entire life after Thanos? Is it really just suffering caused by overpopulation? What a weird hang-up. And what a nonsensical solution to the problem. I mean... humans don't have infinity stones and we're working on more efficient energy consumption and energy production, and solar/wind/wave, etc. Thanos can shape reality at will. Thanos can manipulate time and guide populations down a better path, or create other spaces with other worlds/resources. I mean... he turned a blaster bolt into bubbles, so obviously he can manipulate matter/creation.

It just doesn't track that he is concerned about suffering and population growth and his solution is to eradicate populations when he has whatever power the gauntlet affords him. He is obviously a forward thinking person, since he enacted a plan to gather the stones and create the gauntlet with a purpose in mind. How did he fall on this particular "solution" to the problem though?

A friend directed me to Thanos' description of the stones' abilities individually. The description of the Reality Stone includes a line that says (paraphrasing) "The so-called laws of physics become mere guidelines". You're talking about how humans are working on efficient energy consumption, when Thanos can scribble out the Laws Of Thermodynamics and Entropy that make the consumption of resources to remain alive null and void. The Time Stone (possibly assisted by the Reality Stone) could do something similar by rendering living creatures' bodies eternally young and healthy regardless of resource consumption or out-of-body issues, while using the Mind And Soul stones to allow their minds/souls to continue to learn and develop and change (while also protecting them from mental/spiritual diseases).

The Soul Stone can turn "sinners into saints, and saints into monsters". If the issue with "take away their biological need to consume" is that they'll consume resources to gain power over others, take away their motivations to take advantage of others. Thanos complains at one point in the movie about how he seems to be the only one who understands the problem, and is willing to consider the dire solutions. Well with a snap of his fingers, he could put "the ultimate survival of all life in the universe for eternity" as the primary goal of every creature in existence. Use the Mind/Soul/Power stones to declare yourself emperor of the universe and make everybody obey your words, and then make the preservation of life and the efficient collection and consumption of resources your first order.

There are tons of ways to use the power of these stones in super-simple, straightforward ways. About the only stone that can't have its power wielded like a cudgel to solve this problem is the Space Stone. Throw enough Time power at this problem, and it's solved. Throw enough Mind power at this problem, and it's solved. Throw enough Reality power at this problem, and it's solved.

[Lvl45DM!]

Except if he did anything else than kill 50% of the people he would be admitting that he had been genociding planets allthese years for nothing.

[Ramza00]

Except if he did anything else than kill 50% of the people he would be admitting that he had been genociding planets allthese years for nothing.

Ding, that is why Thanos is nuts, but as an outside observer who does hot a "sunk cost fallacy" that is doing "motivated reasoning" you should be able to see Thanos is nuts and he does not solve any problems with his "ultimate solution."

But Thanos is nuts, and/or has Trauma but that does not stop him from being a Mad Titan.

[-D-]

Ding, that is why Thanos is nuts, but as an outside observer who does hot a "sunk cost fallacy" that is doing "motivated reasoning" you should be able to see Thanos is nuts and he does not solve any problems with his "ultimate solution."

But Thanos is nuts, and/or has Trauma but that does not stop him from being a Mad Titan.

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Ok, but explain to me, how a relatively normal person can become Malthusian poster boy, claiming he wants to prevent suffering, while simultaneously raising children for dog-fighting.

If he is a psychopath, then he can't love Gamora and he can't get the Soul Stone. If he isn't, then he could he do the things he did?

It's like Thanos is just some hastily written character that wanted to avoid the cheesy courting Death comic shtick (even though Avengers 1 heavily implied this was his motivation).

[Chen]

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If he is a psychopath, then he can't love Gamora and he can't get the Soul Stone. If he isn't, then he could he do the things he did?

He need not be a full on psychopath. He clearly has significant delusions as to his plan being the right one. This can stem from any number of human mental illnesses, many of which dont preclude loving people. They dont go in depth to what mental illness he suffers, they simply call him the Mad Titan. Seems like a sufficient shorthand to me.

[Cikomyr]

By the way..

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I finally understand what pushed Star Lord over the edge. And why Spiderman had to die..

Parker: Like Footloose?

Quill: yhea! Is it still the best movie in the universe?

Parker: it never was...

You know that must have stung

[Razade]

Wow guys, it's like the antagonist's plan is flawed from its outset both on a moral level and a practical level. It's almost like they're not meant to be right in their methods.

Incidentally I just woke up from a sixty year coma and forgot every book I'd ever read. Is this a new thing, started in 2018 or have we been doing this for a while?

[Anteros]

Wow guys, it's like the antagonist's plan is flawed from its outset both on a moral level and a practical level. It's almost like they're not meant to be right in their methods.

Incidentally I just woke up from a sixty year coma and forgot every book I'd ever read. Is this a new thing, started in 2018 or have we been doing this for a while?

It's probably a good thing that you forgot all those books since you apparently haven't been reading any good ones. A good antagonist should have plans that are compelling and self consistent even if they're wrong. At the very least, they shouldn't have gigantic holes in them that even a 5 year old can point out.

[-D-]

He need not be a full on psychopath. He clearly has significant delusions as to his plan being the right one. This can stem from any number of human mental illnesses, many of which dont preclude loving people. They dont go in depth to what mental illness he suffers, they simply call him the Mad Titan. Seems like a sufficient shorthand to me.

Thing is, he still need to be a scizofrenic delusional psychopath, which still doesn't reflect in his actions or behavior.

He doesn't act mad. And he'd need to be way, way crazier for him to fit with the rest of story.

[theNater]

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Ok, but explain to me, how a relatively normal person can become Malthusian poster boy, claiming he wants to prevent suffering, while simultaneously raising children for dog-fighting.

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By experiencing a specific highly traumatic event, which he then redefines as suffering. Like, if having his home planet collapse due to scarce resources caused him to think of that and only that as "real" suffering, then he'd be okay with torture and murder and making people watch their loved ones turn to dust before their eyes, because even though it hurts, it's not "real" suffering.

[-D-]

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By experiencing a specific highly traumatic event, which he then redefines as suffering. Like, if having his home planet collapse due to scarce resources caused him to think of that and only that as "real" suffering, then he'd be okay with torture and murder and making people watch their loved ones turn to dust before their eyes, because even though it hurts, it's not "real" suffering.

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Which is why many survivors of real-life atrocities turn into monsters. Riiiight.

But, ok, lets assume your example is correct, how does anything he does at any point seem like he loved Gamora as a daughter and how can that be tied together with your previous description.

[thorgrim29]

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The only standard of love that matters here is Thanos'. No sane person would consider him a loving parent but he thinks he is and killing her does break his heart, that's what matters. And about his sanity... yeah his plan is crazy and wouldn't work for a myriad of reasons. So what, having crazy beliefs doesn't mean you have to be a frothing at the mouth maniac.

[Psyren]

Ok, prove me he "cared" about Gamora. I was incredulous at his tears as much as Gamora was. Where did this come from? Two lines about sharing the throne? Him holding Gamora's hand while her mother and others die?

Brutalizing all his other "daughters" for her sake throughout her childhood and adolescence, for one.

If you've ever played Mass Effect 2, Gamora's upbringing is not that dissimilar from Jack's. She was the one with the greatest potential (however he determined that) so he terrorized all the others to make her as strong as possible.

Like Gamora, you and I don't see that as "love" at all. But for Thanos, it was enough to give him pause when he realized he had to throw all of that away (literally) to get what he felt he needed most.

Why? What caused him to appoint himself judge, jury and executioner. What's his underlying psychology - hint: there is none.

It's called megalomania. He thinks he's the best person for the job due to being the strongest. Unfortunately, he's so strong that thus far he hasn't been proven wrong.

[ThurlRavenscrof]

Like Gamora, you and I don't see that as "love" at all. But for Thanos, it was enough to give him pause when he realized he had to throw all of that away (literally) to get what he felt he needed most.

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I agree that Thanos believes he loves her. But I think in reality he just values her.
He never makes decisions that put her interests and safety above her own. It’s like how I feel about my car: I value it so I keep it safe and in good condition. But I don’t keep it safe at my own expense because I don’t love it.

It makes sense that thanos would believe that is love because he doesn’t know better. But it doesn’t make sense that the writers would validate that abusive relationship by claiming it is based on (one-sided) love.

As soon as I saw the scene where the “rules” of getting the soul stone are explained, I thought the writers had written a clever riddle. The seeker has to sacrifice the person they love most but by being willing to sacrifice someone you love for the stone, the seeker proves that they didn’t have honest love for that person. Maybe they valued or liked that person but when given the chance to kill them to gain power, they take it. The riddle could ONLY be solved by the seeker throwing themselves off the cliff because they only consider their own interests and well being. And then the stone would reveal itself and save the seeker.

Instead, it was just a dubious definition of the word Love. So to me thanos’s actions make sense but the soul stones actions don’t.

[LaZodiac]

Honestly I figured the Soul Stone's trade was because it's meant to be a test. Do you truly wish for this power, enough to kill the one you love the most?

It's why I think they'll be able to trade it back for Gamora at the end. It was never a thing you were supposed to have, it was supposed to give you the power...and for you to realize power is nothing without love. Unfortunately Thanos is a bit broken and might be able to accept this.

[-D-]

Brutalizing all his other "daughters" for her sake throughout her childhood and adolescence, for one.

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Not supported by the text. Nebula says she never went all out against her, because she wanted a sister. So I guess he never realized that.

It's called megalomania. He thinks he's the best person for the job due to being the strongest. Unfortunately, he's so strong that thus far he hasn't been proven wrong.

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Megalomania, is an old name for Narcissistic personality disorder. So Thanos is extremely narcissistic, but that can't fit his desire to prevent larger scope suffering. And it can't explain why he was able to kill Gamora for the stone.

Like Gamora, you and I don't see that as "love" at all. But for Thanos, it was enough to give him pause when he realized he had to throw all of that away (literally) to get what he felt he needed most.

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Sure, but the thing is Soul stone (and writers ) said - yep, that is love. Is Soul Stone (and are writers) secretly an *******?

In essence Thanos is this:

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I agree that Thanos believes he loves her. But I think in reality he just values her.

It makes sense that thanos would believe that is love because he doesn’t know better. But it doesn’t make sense that the writers would validate that abusive relationship by claiming it is based on (one-sided) love.

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We are never shown, why Thanos is why he is like he is. As far as we know, he lived a fulfilling life on Titan before some calamity. Why Thanos didn't become a rescue worker or a scientist ending world hunger?

If we were shown, the writers couldn't half-ass it and get away with it.

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As soon as I saw the scene where the “rules” of getting the soul stone are explained, I thought the writers had written a clever riddle. The seeker has to sacrifice the person they love most but by being willing to sacrifice someone you love for the stone, the seeker proves that they didn’t have honest love for that person. Maybe they valued or liked that person but when given the chance to kill them to gain power, they take it. The riddle could ONLY be solved by the seeker throwing themselves off the cliff because they only consider their own interests and well being. And then the stone would reveal itself and save the seeker.

Instead, it was just a dubious definition of the word Love. So to me thanos’s actions make sense but the soul stones actions don’t.

I thought so too, but alas, they went with the easier route.

[Devonix]

Killing 50% of all life just doesn't make sense. Thanos takes a seat at the end of the movie as if everything is alright in the universe now. How does vanishing a random 50% of every planetary population in the universe actually solve the problem of resource scarcity?

Someone mentioned the Black Plague earlier. Did that prevent humans from overcrowding the planet and depleting its resource? No. Of course not.

Thanos appears to be motivated by a desire to eradicate suffering caused by resource strain. That's... a strange goal for a villain willing to kill off half the universe. Won't people be suffering now because of their lost loved ones? Hasn't Gamora been suffering her entire life after Thanos? Is it really just suffering caused by overpopulation? What a weird hang-up. And what a nonsensical solution to the problem. I mean... humans don't have infinity stones and we're working on more efficient energy consumption and energy production, and solar/wind/wave, etc. Thanos can shape reality at will. Thanos can manipulate time and guide populations down a better path, or create other spaces with other worlds/resources. I mean... he turned a blaster bolt into bubbles, so obviously he can manipulate matter/creation.

It just doesn't track that he is concerned about suffering and population growth and his solution is to eradicate populations when he has whatever power the gauntlet affords him. He is obviously a forward thinking person, since he enacted a plan to gather the stones and create the gauntlet with a purpose in mind. How did he fall on this particular "solution" to the problem though?

The problem comes from the film makers starting with an action and then cobbling a goal later.

They approached the film like this.

"The finger snap is the most iconic part of Infinity Gauntlet. So let's come up with a goal for Thanos that lets him do it.

Instead of.

"Let's give our villain a goal he's achieving and figure out actions that help him accomplish it."

[Dr.Samurai]

Wow guys, it's like the antagonist's plan is flawed from its outset both on a moral level and a practical level. It's almost like they're not meant to be right in their methods.

Well, that makes it less compelling and not as interesting. Wherever the plan falls on the morality spectrum (if he's full blown obviously evil or more gray with noble intentions evil), his plan should make sense. His motivations and intentions should be compelling and consistent and the plan that he enacts to achieve his goals should be practical and make sense.

That's what was refreshing about Killmonger.

Thanos says things like he wants to end suffering and he loves Gamora but... we don't really see that. His actions don't line up with what he professes to want or care for. And if we're left to think about it on our own, it doesn't really make sense.

It would make *much more* sense if Thanos worshiped a cosmic entity of death and, to gain her favor, resolved to annihilate half the universe's population in one massive instantaneous macabre demonstration of his love/obsession with her. I'm not saying that would make a better movie, but it would at least be internally consistent.

But "I want to reduce the suffering in the universe caused by resource scarcity so I will amass unimaginable power and use it to instantaneously reduce every planet's population by exactly half" doesn't make sense. You're left squinting at Thanos like... "Have you thought about this all the way through?"

It's probably a good thing that you forgot all those books since you apparently haven't been reading any good ones.

LMAO. I agree with the rest of what you said too.

@Devonix: Agreed. It's too bad they didn't make Thanos more compelling. Still megamaniacal, still thinking he can fix the universe himself. But the finger snap is a threat that he uses against the heroes when they challenge him, as opposed to what he has set out to do rom the very beginning. It makes little sense that, with all that power, his idea is to kill people. Instead, he has a different idea to save the universe and says oppose my vision, attempt to stop me, and I annihilate half the people in the universe. And the movie ends with him making good on that promise after the heroes nearly stop him but fail.

[Psyren]

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Not supported by the text. Nebula says she never went all out against her, because she wanted a sister. So I guess he never realized that.

He broke her down and rebuilt her every time she lost. It was very painful. Furthermore, most of his other "daughters" did not survive this treatment. Did you watch GotG2?

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Megalomania, is an old name for Narcissistic personality disorder. So Thanos is extremely narcissistic, but that can't fit his desire to prevent larger scope suffering. And it can't explain why he was able to kill Gamora for the stone.

It fits both. He believes he is the only one who can fix everything - narcisissm. He believes further anything is worth the sacrifice to do so, even something he (in his twisted way) holds dear.

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Sure, but the thing is Soul stone (and writers ) said - yep, that is love. Is Soul Stone (and are writers) secretly an *******?

In essence Thanos is this:

Actually,

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what the stone really said was "this hurt you sufficiently." It doesn't have to be something that would hurt us the same way, it's pretty personal.

Can't see your GIF atm, it's blocked here.

It would make *much more* sense if Thanos worshiped a cosmic entity of death and, to gain her favor, resolved to annihilate half the universe's population in one massive instantaneous macabre demonstration of his love/obsession with her. I'm not saying that would make a better movie, but it would at least be internally consistent.

It would be garbage in every way. First you'd have to set up cosmic entities to begin with, and do so in such a way that you don't immediately kill all the tension in the MCU from any other big threats going forward. Then you'd have to explain what the rest of them are up to while Thanos is rubbing his hands all over their family jewels. Then you'd have to explain how she's different from Ego. Then you'd have to explain how she's different from Hela. Then you'd have to explain her goals and why. Then you'd have to explain how she and Thanos met. Then you'd have to explain how Thanos fell in love and made it his life's mission to carry out hers. Then you'd have to explain why she didn't just get the gems herself. Then you'd have to explain why Thanos went on her errand instead of some other schlub. Then you'd have to explain what she'll do if he fails (Find someone else? Take up crochet? Buelller?) And after determining all that, you then have to pick a character familiar with her to be the exposition dump without monologuing. And only after delivering all that boring-ass backstory can you get on with the actual plot of the movie that everyone paid to see. Never mind all the IRL issues Marvel would get into from not only making Death be female (twice!) but of making this incarnation of her be the passive woman who waits at home for her man to bring her nice jewellery on his way home from work - because she can't be active, she's literally Death! It'd be nothing but a giant steaming clusterfudge of failure.

Schlocky 80s/90s comic books can get away with that crap because (a) they can cram a ton of exposition into a few pages or across multiple volumes and (b) they're comic books from decades ago rather than 9-figure movie tentpoles, so they can be as cheesy as they want. Thankfully, Marvel and Disney are better at this than that.

[GloatingSwine]

People are serially forgetting that they don't have to believe the villain's motivation, they only have to believe that he believes it.

And the movie sells that just fine. Thanos absolutely believes that what he's doing is right and will work.

He's wrong, but that's why he's the damn villain!

[Psyren]

People are serially forgetting that they don't have to believe the villain's motivation, they only have to believe that he believes it.

And the movie sells that just fine. Thanos absolutely believes that what he's doing is right and will work.

He's wrong, but that's why he's the damn villain!

Indeed, this, +1 etc.

[Lethologica]

If anything, what I didn't believe Thanos believed was that he loved Gamora.

[Ramza00]

People are serially forgetting that they don't have to believe the villain's motivation, they only have to believe that he believes it.

And the movie sells that just fine. Thanos absolutely believes that what he's doing is right and will work.

He's wrong, but that's why he's the damn villain!

You are correct, but doesn't this quote just gives you goosebumps and puts you on edge for you are scared by the horror of it all?

I'm only burning my half /
all you care about is money [motivation] /
this town [universe] deserves a better class of criminal [villiany] /
and I'm gonna give it to them /
tell your men they work for me now /
this is my city[universe] /
[...]
it's not about money[motivation] /
it's about something a message /
everything burns!

Now villains can be a dime a dozen. Even though Thanos is the villain for a movie that will surely pass a billion dollars maybe two billion in world wide revenue he is going to be forgettable if I were to make a guess in two years from now. (One year after his last movie.) And this is okay.

[Anteros]

People are serially forgetting that they don't have to believe the villain's motivation, they only have to believe that he believes it.

And the movie sells that just fine. Thanos absolutely believes that what he's doing is right and will work.

He's wrong, but that's why he's the damn villain!

That's all well and good...but it should at least be believable that someone could actually have the villain's motivations without being a complete idiot. It's like if Loki's motivation in Avengers was to rule earth...by working in a soup kitchen. It's just not internally consistent. The movie wants you to believe that Thanos is some sort of brilliant, cold, calculating tactician...but his plan is something that an edgy 12 year old would come up with. A dumb one.

[FreddyNoNose]

People are serially forgetting that they don't have to believe the villain's motivation, they only have to believe that he believes it.

And the movie sells that just fine. Thanos absolutely believes that what he's doing is right and will work.

He's wrong, but that's why he's the damn villain!

Some people like to stir up crap and make "problems" where there isn't much. They want to debate. Just take them with a grain of salt and remember that this might be the best thing they have going on in their little lives. How sad.

[Razade]

People are serially forgetting that they don't have to believe the villain's motivation, they only have to believe that he believes it.

And the movie sells that just fine. Thanos absolutely believes that what he's doing is right and will work.

He's wrong, but that's why he's the damn villain!

Not only that but...

It's probably a good thing that you forgot all those books since you apparently haven't been reading any good ones. A good antagonist should have plans that are compelling and self consistent even if they're wrong. At the very least, they shouldn't have gigantic holes in them that even a 5 year old can point out.

I think killing half the universe is compelling in a "holy crap the dude's a nihilistic monster" realm. The fact that you don't doesn't sway my opinion one way or the other. Who would have guessed though that we have different opinions on something.

As for holes...I don't really see any short of...how do you keep the Universe at half forever? I imagine when you are a literal God it becomes trivial to answer that one though. Less a hole and less of a "who gives a crap" because it's not going to happen. I don't need Thanos's answer to the question or the movie to answer that question because it's a moot point. Thanos isn't going to win so I don't really give two damn cents about the logistics of keeping his lunatic scheme together.

If anything, what I didn't believe Thanos believed was that he loved Gamora.

I absolutely believed this. In so far as I believed that Thanos, an omnicidal abusive narcissist with a God complex, believed that he loved Gamora in a way only a violent sociopath could actually love anyone. I certainly believed that Thanos believed he didn't love himself.

[Cheesegear]

Well, that makes it less compelling and not as interesting. Wherever the plan falls on the morality spectrum (if he's full blown obviously evil or more gray with noble intentions evil), his plan should make sense. His motivations and intentions should be compelling and consistent and the plan that he enacts to achieve his goals should be practical and make sense.

This.
I would prefer that Thanos' plan simply be to kill everyone 'cause he's evil and wants to rule the Universe. It'd be simple. But it is a movie for children, and tracks with the fact, that he is evil, and makes children fight for his entertainment, and genetically experiments on the losers. So they can fight again? For...More entertainment?

But, his motivation is population control vs. resource management, and his method of doing so has so many holes in it.

He comes off - to me, and others - as stupid, and thus, not a credible villain antagonist.
It doesn't matter if 'I believe that he believes it'...Because the logical conclusion of that, is that I believe he is stupid. If I believe he is stupid, he is a bad antagonist.
His opinion is wrong.

There's a scene in which Disney tries to paint Thanos as an anti-villain. See? He can love! He's doing this for the right reasons!
...Except they immediately fail, because who would murder the person they love, in order to murder trillions more people? Thanos was fairly easily putting planets to the sword before he had the Infinity Stones. Why not just keep doing it the old-fashioned way? Especially if the alternate way involves murdering someone you love. Because you have to have The Snap. You just have to. Because movie.

Thanos has to do this, because this is a movie. Not because of credible character motivations. If Thanos didn't do this, there wouldn't be a movie.
Thanos does the things he does, because the plot says he has to. Actions first, motivations second. Pirates of the Carribean-style, where the writers' job is to simply string a series of scenes and spots* together, and what the 'string' is, doesn't make a difference, because the movie, first and foremost, is about the spots.

Two-thirds of the movies since Thor...Have been leading up to this villain...Who kind of sucks.
The word I'm looking for, is 'disappointment'. I expected better. Essentially waiting six/seven years for the Big Bad to show up and go 'P.S. I'm pretty dumb.'

* A 'Spot' is a wrestling term for a particular action designed to make the crowd/audience go 'Oooh...', 'Ahh...' and 'DID YOU SEE THAT!?'