Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

[Wraith]

...even sphech wolves renounce their corpse god when near them.

...even got Rowboat Girlyman himself in chains.

...Holy crap, I was about to be all sarcastic and go [Citation needed] at you, but I checked Lexicanum first. That actually happened.

But the AVERAGE Rogue Trader has multiple planets that they outright own.

Outright incorrect. Planets are owned by the Emperor and He appoints Planetary Governors to govern them individually - one per planet. The only exception to this are Dead Worlds (which are still His but without individual need for a governor) and some of the larger asteroids that get turned into Mining Colonies, which technically fall under either the Administratum or the Mechanicus. Even some Astartes homeworlds have Planetary Governors, or otherwise have the post unofficially assigned to the Chapter Master so that the link remains.

The average Rogue Trader owns a single starship and is fabulously wealthy. Multiple starships is a legendary achievement - and, going by the examples that I could find, tend to be the result of corrupt or even heretical dealings.

[The Glyphstone]

Inquisitors can still be called to account if they go too far, or start outright abusing their limitless authority. Kryptman is a very good example of this - he set multiple Imperial worlds to the torch, and the power of Exterminatus is explicitly one of the things Inquisitors can do. He very possibly saved the Imperium from Hive Fleet Leviathan in doing so, but he was still stripped of his title and condemned to death for treason. Lexicanum doesn't specify who condemned him, but it was probably the Inquisition itself.

Rogue Traders aren't entirely different in that regard either - beyond the settled borders of Imperial space, they literally and explicitly are the Imperium. They can do whatever their warrant permits, and in some cases that permits them to do things that inside Imperial territory would be blatant treason or heresy, such as negotiating with xenos. But once they're back inside Imperial space, they have to be able to justify whatever they did if they want to keep their heads; if the return/results are sufficient, they're good. If they went too far, or don't have something valuable enough to warrant their actions, they are in trouble.

[hamishspence]

Lexicanum doesn't specify who condemned him, but it was probably the Inquisition itself.

Possibly the Ordo Excorium, whose job it is to judge whether Exterminatus was necessary or not.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ordo_Excorium

[The Glyphstone]

Possibly the Ordo Excorium, whose job it is to judge whether Exterminatus was necessary or not.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ordo_Excorium

That make sense. So Inquisitors cannot be legally denied by any other Imperial authority, but they are still ultimately subject to the judgement of their peers for their actions - the Inquisition polices itself, which is likely part of why it's so internally fractious - anything else would lead to a truly unimpeachable shadow government. Paralleling that, they tend to have little personal resources and rely on their authority to commandeer what they need, creating a practical check on their ability to employ that authority.

[Shadowy]

It can be generally assumed that, on average, the balance of power between any given rogue trader and inquisitor favors the inquisitor.

That said, it's just that it favors them, not that everything will go their way. The Inquisitor that turns out to be less powerful then a given rogue trader had better hope they take the proper precautions, and it's worth noting that even if an Inquisitor does want to take down a rogue trader, it's really hard to go and capture someone who can just leave imperial space for decades at a time, and who, if you do catch them, still has a the equivalent of a city full of people following their orders to fight through.

Dumb inquisitors go all captain Ahab on rogue traders they don't like.

Smart inquisitors feed the trader information about how there's some incredibly valuable artifacts on that necron tomb world, and let the problem sort itself out, one way or another.

[Xenopax]

So me and a few other 40kers on here made a server for the discussion and playing of 40k (RPGS not tabletop although I guess you could do that too) on discord. So I figured I should drop an invite here.
And here it is: https://discord.gg/yEtBdrt

[Borgh]

Probably the best example of a powerfull rogue trader in action is in the second Calpurnia novel. Writ signed by E-money himself, multiple ships, mechanicus support, money out the wahoo.
Also have a spot one one of the ships where they didn't buff out the bolter holes left by an angry inquisitor to remind them of their limits. And when they truly went over the edge the local Navy blew them out of the sky in minutes.

[The Glyphstone]

Which leads me, after a lot of thinking, to believe that we've been addressing this entire thing from the wrong angle - trying to compare apples and tire irons, so to speak.

An Inquisitor's authority within the Imperium is absolute. Their power is directly derived from their authority, having little individual power outside any personal retinue they've collected but with the ability to commandeer whatever additional power they need from the nearest Imperial force without question. Leveraging that power can be trickier, but it's still there. Whereas within the Imperium, a Rogue Trader is merely another Imperial citizen - vastly wealthier, more heavily armed, and more well-connected than the average, but a citizen nonetheless.

Outside the Imperium, the entire situation is reversed. The whole point of a Warrant of Trade is that it grants the bearer neigh-unlimited authority to act in the Emperor's name beyond settled Imperial space - in uncharted and frontier space, Rogue Traders are the Imperium, and the potential for even vaster wealth is the carrot employed to expand Imperial territory. Whereas an Inquisitor venturing beyond settled and civilized space has nothing but the people and the ship they brought with them; to leverage their authority they need to find the nearest source of Imperial power, and in all likelihood...that will be a Rogue Trader.

Which, in turn, makes me think we are probably also going at this incorrectly by innately assuming a hostile or confrontational relationship between Rogue Traders and the Inquisition, when I see a much more...symbiotic, I guess...interaction between them. Inside Imperial space, a Rogue Trader benefits immensely from having contacts with Inquisitors, or even being owed a favor by one. Outside Imperial space, an Inquisitor with friendly ties to a Trader has both a readily accessible weapon and a potential shield against hostile threats, whether that is aliens or rivals. There are other benefits too. Consider the previously used example of a Trader whose Warrant permits the legal salvage and sale of xenos technology and artifacts. He's legally permitted to sell them...but who is permitted to buy them? If he goes to the black market, now he's engaged in smuggling at the least, and spreading heresy/treason at the worst. Many Traders will accept that as the price of profit, but for one who wants to stay aboveboard, he has a far more limited market. Other Rogue Traders could just go get it themselves. That makes the most likely customer for a Trader dealing in xenos artifacts...the Inquisition. Both Puritan and Radical factions have legitimate reasons to want said artifacts, whether it's to better understand ways to kill their former owners or to reverse-engineer the technologies for their own use.

[Borgh]

Yeah, I don't follow the arguement here.
A well-prepared inquisitor who knows he'll be dealing with a rogue trader vs said rogue trader? Money on the inquisitor all day everyday. Are rogue traders one of the few people where this might not be worth the effort unless they are extra-heretical? Also, and quite incredibly for the imperium, yes.

[hamishspence]

Which leads me, after a lot of thinking, to believe that we've been addressing this entire thing from the wrong angle - trying to compare apples and tire irons, so to speak.

An Inquisitor's authority within the Imperium is absolute. Their power is directly derived from their authority, having little individual power outside any personal retinue they've collected but with the ability to commandeer whatever additional power they need from the nearest Imperial force without question. Leveraging that power can be trickier, but it's still there. Whereas within the Imperium, a Rogue Trader is merely another Imperial citizen - vastly wealthier, more heavily armed, and more well-connected than the average, but a citizen nonetheless.

Outside the Imperium, the entire situation is reversed. The whole point of a Warrant of Trade is that it grants the bearer neigh-unlimited authority to act in the Emperor's name beyond settled Imperial space - in uncharted and frontier space, Rogue Traders are the Imperium, and the potential for even vaster wealth is the carrot employed to expand Imperial territory. Whereas an Inquisitor venturing beyond settled and civilized space has nothing but the people and the ship they brought with them; to leverage their authority they need to find the nearest source of Imperial power, and in all likelihood...that will be a Rogue Trader.

Which, in turn, makes me think we are probably also going at this incorrectly by innately assuming a hostile or confrontational relationship between Rogue Traders and the Inquisition, when I see a much more...symbiotic, I guess...interaction between them.

It is fairly common in 40K for Inquisitors (especially Ordo Xenos) to have Rogue Trader allies at least. Eisenhorn had Tobias Maxilla. Amberley had Orelius. Covenant (Ordo Malleus in this case) had Duke Von Castellan.

And, according to Amberley, it's common for the less imaginative Inquisitors to disguise themselves as a Rogue Trader with retinue.

[Wraith]

Outside the Imperium, the entire situation is reversed. The whole point of a Warrant of Trade is that it grants the bearer neigh-unlimited authority to act in the Emperor's name beyond settled Imperial space - in uncharted and frontier space, Rogue Traders are the Imperium, and the potential for even vaster wealth is the carrot employed to expand Imperial territory. Whereas an Inquisitor venturing beyond settled and civilized space has nothing but the people and the ship they brought with them; to leverage their authority they need to find the nearest source of Imperial power, and in all likelihood...that will be a Rogue Trader.

It is fairly common in 40K for Inquisitors (especially Ordo Xenos) to have Rogue Trader allies at least. Eisenhorn had Tobias Maxilla. Amberley had Orelius. Covenant (Ordo Malleus in this case) had Duke Von Castellan.

How I interpret it, is that this is what happens when you're an intelligent Inquisitor, especially one who recognises that their badge only works as long as the target believes it does. Trying to bully people and forcing them to do what you want only works for so long, until they find an opportunity to escape or dispose of the Inquisitor in question.

The clever Inquisitor realises that he shouldn't always tell people what to do. He should ask them and give them an honourable, but not necessarily favourable, way out so that they don't grow to resent him for undermining their own authority in the long run.

Not all Inquisitors are this intelligent, however - all of the Ordos have their bad guys, but I think Hereticus are among the worst as they spend so much of their time dealing with people directly and only seeing them at their worst, which breeds a specific kind of jaded contempt.

Gideon Ravenor explained this well in his dealings with Captain Preest of the Hinterlight.
He paid her well for her services and he left the running of the ship to her, because it was HERS and the crew were ultimately loyal to HER, and his interference was neither needed nor appreciated. He eventually realised that some of his missions had brought a lot of harm to the ship, and that it was better for him to release Preest from her contract as amicably as possible rather than force her to remain retained and in a position to resent him for it (even though he absolutely could order her to do it, if her wanted to).

Ravenor treats her with respect and compassion, and she's ultimately more loyal and disposed to aiding him in times of desperation for it. Meanwhile there's the guy from The Emperor's Gift who tries to make demands of the Grey Knights - even though their loyalty is cast iron guaranteed, even they start questioning his intentions and orders, going so far as to instigate a policy of following orders to the letter and not a step more out of... not protest, but certainly dissatisfaction.

[Cheesegear]

And when they truly went over the edge the local Navy blew them out of the sky in minutes.

The Imperial Navy is militarily and economically - and thus, politically - the strongest Faction of the Imperium, bar none. The Imperial Navy holds contracts with more Navigator and Rogue Trader Houses* than anybody else, and with their contacts and economic clout, they can destroy any House that they deem to. That's before they have a legitimate reason to start recruiting Astartes Cruisers, firing torpedoes and glassing fiefdoms.

Don't Mess with the Munitorum.

*Don't attack the Rogue Trader House - they have Writs that can be annoying. Attack the Navigator House that supports them.

Tempestor Prime Uther Abraxes (still the manliest name) in Shield of Baal bullies Navigator and Rogue Trader alike.
Then he gets death-by-Maleceptor'd.

How I interpret it, is that this is what happens when you're an intelligent Inquisitor, especially one who recognises that their badge only works as long as the target believes it does.

An Inquisitor's authority only ever extends to wherever he, physically, is. That's kind of the joke.
The Inquisition is a very, very different thing altogether.

Meanwhile there's the guy from The Emperor's Gift who tries to make demands of the Grey Knights

I much prefer the Inquisitor from the Grey Knights trilogy, where Alaric is itching for an ironclad reason to terminate the Inquisitor who commands him.
"Cross the line...I dare you..."
Getting unloaded on by a Storm Bolter at point blank range is pretty much the best.

[deuterio12]

I much prefer the Inquisitor from the Grey Knights trilogy, where Alaric is itching for an ironclad reason to terminate the Inquisitor who commands him.
"Cross the line...I dare you..."
Getting unloaded on by a Storm Bolter at point blank range is pretty much the best.

Wasting so many precious blessed bolter shells when a good melee hit would do the job just fine sounds pretty heretical to me.

[Thanqol]

A Rogue Trader is a Peer of the Imperium.

An Inquisitor is a Peer of the Imperium.

A Space Marine Chapter Master is a Peer of the Imperium.

An Imperial Guard Lord Commander is a Peer of the Imperium.

A Canoness of the Sisters of Battle is a Peer of the Imperium.

An Admiral of the Imperial Navy is a Peer of the Imperium.

Etc.

There's no hierarchy at that point. They're all at the pinnacles of their respective organizations. If a Chapter Master tells a Lord Commander to move and the Lord Commander says no, then either the Marine blinks or it's war. Same thing with the Inquisition and Rogue Traders, or the Inquisition and Chapter Masters, or the Imperial Navy and Sector Governors, or whoever.

So the question simply can't be 'does the Inquisition outrank a Rogue Trader' - no, they're both Peers. It's like asking if the army outranks the navy. If some newly minted Inquisitor fresh out of Inquisitor school tries to pull rank on a Lord General in the heart of the General's strategy room then he'll fall down some stairs, the same if a dynastic fop who inherited the Lord General rank disrespected an ancient Lord Inquisitor at the head of a fleet of Grey Knights. It's all relative power, feudal politics, and constant civil war.

[Cheesegear]

A Rogue Trader is a Peer of the Imperium.

An Inquisitor is a Peer of the Imperium.

A Space Marine Chapter Master is a Peer of the Imperium.

An Imperial Guard Lord Commander is a Peer of the Imperium.

A Canoness of the Sisters of Battle is a Peer of the Imperium.

An Admiral of the Imperial Navy is a Peer of the Imperium.

And yet every single one of them relies on whatever is backing them. Rank is one thing. Experience, age and renown (and resources) is another.
Hence Lord Admiral Hawke shooting a Lord General in the head.
Hence Chapter Master Shrike, and Kor'sarro Khan of all people, taking orders from said Hawke.

If a Chapter Master tells a Lord Commander to move and the Lord Commander says no, then either the Marine blinks or it's war.

Yeah. I remember during the Fall of Cadia when none of the Chapter Masters in the theatre was listening to Creed.

Same thing with the Inquisition and Rogue Traders, or the Inquisition and Chapter Masters, or the Imperial Navy and Sector Governors, or whoever.

No. Things are not equal.
Take any number of people who will kneel to (Lord) Commander Dante, who will absolutely not kneel to Gabriel Seth. Both are Chapter Masters. But one clearly has more authority than the other.

So the question simply can't be 'does the Inquisition outrank a Rogue Trader' - no, they're both Peers.

A whole bunch of Inquisitors would absolutely outrank the Rogue Trader.
Hell, Inquisitors canonically don't outrank Deathwatch Watch Masters, or Grey Knight Chapter Masters. And like Hell does anyone outrank the Captain-General of the Custodes - not even Rogal Dorn did.

Roboute Guilliman is a special case, and Trajann Valoris is doing a thing.

It's like asking if the army outranks the navy.

The Navy outranks the Guard. Every time. Because the Navy pretty much outranks everything - I already said that.

If some newly minted Inquisitor fresh out of Inquisitor school tries to pull rank on a Lord General in the heart of the General's strategy room

You mean like Coteaz did?

[Thanqol]

No. Things are not equal.
Take any number of people who will kneel to (Lord) Commander Dante, who will absolutely not kneel to Gabriel Seth. Both are Chapter Masters. But one clearly has more authority than the other.

I have no idea why you're taking such a combative tone when that's very much the exact nature of my point.

[Wraith]

On paper an Inquisitor outranks anyone but Guilliman or (prior to that) a High Lord of Terra - that's why the Council has an Inquisitorial representative, who is alone their equal.

In practice, there is a long list of people who the Inquisition can demand to act, but really should ask for help because they should theoretically never be refused, but can be due to a large number of factors; political pull, personal connections, private histories, jurisdiction, etc.

Even Chapter Masters - on paper - answer to the Inquisition.
The different between the Celestial Lions (who merely spoke out against unfair practices and were culled for it) and the Space Wolves (who initiated sedition against the Imperium and were, at the very end, merely chastised for it) is that the Wolves have the connections and prestige necessary to shrug it off when they want to. Same goes for everyone else - Admirals, Rogue Traders, even other Inquisitors.

Wasting so many precious blessed bolter shells when a good melee hit would do the job just fine sounds pretty heretical to me.

A boltgun is a holy icon, and every shot fired is a prayer to the Emperor. It should, therefore, be fired as often as inhumanly possible for spiritual reasons as well as practical ones.

[hamishspence]

Regarding the Navy - like the Guard, the Navy officers, all the way to the top, have Commissars to shoot them if they're caught being cowardly or treacherous.

So, at least in theory, they're on the same level, even if in practice, the Navy is more politically powerful.

[Wraith]

Commissars are formally outside of the chain of command. The Commissariat is an entity unto itself, rather than being a part of either military branch, and their authority over both the Navy and Guard is absolute only in circumstances of moral and discipline.

They resemble Inquisitors more than actual Imperial Commanders in that respect, as a fully-qualified Commissar has the authority - nay, duty - to instruct and even execute Admirals and Brigadier Generals if necessary, however they have no formal role in the day-to-day running of a Regiment or their battlefield tactics.

[deuterio12]

A boltgun is a holy icon, and every shot fired is a prayer to the Emperor. It should, therefore, be fired as often as inhumanly possible for spiritual reasons as well as practical ones.

Ah, as expected of the blind followers of the corpse god. Even Word Bearers know better than to needlessly wasting ammo.

[Shadowy]

Regarding the Navy - like the Guard, the Navy officers, all the way to the top, have Commissars to shoot them if they're caught being cowardly or treacherous.

So, at least in theory, they're on the same level, even if in practice, the Navy is more politically powerful.

There was an amusing line in the Ciaphas Cain books about how the ratio is really low though. Something like one commissar for twelve ships, and he spend most of his time either doing paperwork, crying, drinking, or some combination of the three.

[Science Officer]

I am in search of some inspiration for my knight. When I read background info about the knights it's the stuffiest nonsense about upholding honor and holy duty and blah blah blah.

What is the least honorable reason you can come up with for someone to end up and continue piloting an Imperial Knight?
Probably would be a free-blade...

The more reasonable thing would be to theme it as a Mechanicus aligned house (which is the sort of nonsense I enjoy), but I'm curious to see what we can come up with.
(I've got one idea in mind, but I'll share it later)

[Wraith]

When the short story competition for Black Library came around, I was considering writing a story in which a small Titan was crewed by an impoverished Freeblade clan.
They had just the one machine and barely enough crew for it, and nothing else - they had to hitch rides on passing starships in order to get to the next battlefield, were always out of capital to pay for ammo and repairs and owed money all over the place.... But because they had a Titan, the Mechanicus were forced to grudgingly respect them a little tiny bit (though they would occasionally offer them suicide missions in order to try and get the crew killed so that they could salvage the machine for themselves.

It was kind of like Outlaw Star, or Black Lagoon, but with a titan rather than a starship. Their machine wasn't decrepit, but it rarely got repainted and they always had to use the cheapest incense for the Omnissiic rituals and the likes, and were themselves far more rough and crude than traditionally uptight Titan crews.... The same thing could apply to a Knight House, too; just the pilot and a small handful of sacrisans and not much else to their name.

[Brookshw]

awesomeness

I'd read that.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

When the short story competition for Black Library came around, I was considering writing a story in which a small Titan was crewed by an impoverished Freeblade clan.
They had just the one machine and barely enough crew for it, and nothing else - they had to hitch rides on passing starships in order to get to the next battlefield, were always out of capital to pay for ammo and repairs and owed money all over the place.... But because they had a Titan, the Mechanicus were forced to grudgingly respect them a little tiny bit (though they would occasionally offer them suicide missions in order to try and get the crew killed so that they could salvage the machine for themselves.

It was kind of like Outlaw Star, or Black Lagoon, but with a titan rather than a starship. Their machine wasn't decrepit, but it rarely got repainted and they always had to use the cheapest incense for the Omnissiic rituals and the likes, and were themselves far more rough and crude than traditionally uptight Titan crews.... The same thing could apply to a Knight House, too; just the pilot and a small handful of sacrisans and not much else to their name.

I like it; one plucky band living in the grim dark by sheer grit, determination, teamwork, and luck. Firefly with a gundam. I'd read the hell out of that.

[Forum Explorer]

There was an amusing line in the Ciaphas Cain books about how the ratio is really low though. Something like one commissar for twelve ships, and he spend most of his time either doing paperwork, crying, drinking, or some combination of the three.

That was for the PDF, not the Navy. It was one commissar for an entire system's worth of people

[Science Officer]

When the short story competition for Black Library came around, I was considering writing a story in which a small Titan was crewed by an impoverished Freeblade clan.
They had just the one machine and barely enough crew for it, and nothing else - they had to hitch rides on passing starships in order to get to the next battlefield, were always out of capital to pay for ammo and repairs and owed money all over the place.... But because they had a Titan, the Mechanicus were forced to grudgingly respect them a little tiny bit (though they would occasionally offer them suicide missions in order to try and get the crew killed so that they could salvage the machine for themselves.

It was kind of like Outlaw Star, or Black Lagoon, but with a titan rather than a starship. Their machine wasn't decrepit, but it rarely got repainted and they always had to use the cheapest incense for the Omnissiic rituals and the likes, and were themselves far more rough and crude than traditionally uptight Titan crews.... The same thing could apply to a Knight House, too; just the pilot and a small handful of sacrisans and not much else to their name.

Thanks, awesome.

My idea was at least a little similar. A rogue trader (or other 40k rich person) buys/sponsors a knight (to the extent that is possible), and later loses the rest of their wealth to some misfortune. With nothing else, they are forced into something like the situation you describe.

[Wraith]

That's pretty good, too. The only way I could think of it being worse, aside from them being heretics and/or Chaos-tainted, would be if the Rogue Trader had actually stolen the Knights from somewhere.

They could still be Loyalist, of course, but it would severely limit who they could interact with directly. They would have to go around with falsified heraldry - hoping that they never bumped into someone who knew the Clan histories really well - as well as dodging Mechanicus investigations and no doubt also avoiding bounty hunters sent by the original owners.

And then an Inquisitor pays them a visit. She knows their secret somehow, but instead of turning them in she uses it to blackmail them into some very questionable missions; blackening their carefully maintained (fake) name, being unable to tell anyone their real story for fear of being outed as thieves AND retaliation from the =I=, and drawing a lot of unwanted attention to themselves/making a lot of exotic enemies in the process.

[Platinius]

When the short story competition for Black Library came around, I was considering writing a story in which a small Titan was crewed by an impoverished Freeblade clan.
They had just the one machine and barely enough crew for it, and nothing else - they had to hitch rides on passing starships in order to get to the next battlefield, were always out of capital to pay for ammo and repairs and owed money all over the place.... But because they had a Titan, the Mechanicus were forced to grudgingly respect them a little tiny bit (though they would occasionally offer them suicide missions in order to try and get the crew killed so that they could salvage the machine for themselves.

It was kind of like Outlaw Star, or Black Lagoon, but with a titan rather than a starship. Their machine wasn't decrepit, but it rarely got repainted and they always had to use the cheapest incense for the Omnissiic rituals and the likes, and were themselves far more rough and crude than traditionally uptight Titan crews.... The same thing could apply to a Knight House, too; just the pilot and a small handful of sacrisans and not much else to their name.

I remember. I liked your idea, very Batteltech. :)

My idea was a pseudo-Deathwatch lead by an Inquisitrix that was basically doing follow-up work on lost imperial enterprises, both (relatively) recent and ancient, in order to return lost assets to the Imperium. That is also how she got the SMs in her retinue, she did not ask the Chapters for help, she actually saved them after being marooned for centuries or even millennia (like in Veteran Sergeant Raphael's case, who is also the leader of the bunch).
In the very least, she made sure objectives had been completed. (Remember the Imperium is very chaotic and dealing with many, many overwhelming problems at the same time while fleets and entire sectors can be cut off from the larger Imperium for centuries by Warp Storms.)
The story telling focus would definitely have been on the Marines though. The bickering between SM from different chapters AND different eras, comedy gold while playing it completely serious XD


Perhaps I should finish the short story (I was about 85% done with the first draft, 8500 words of 10000) and publish it on some fan fiction sites for people to enjoy.^^

[Silverraptor]

Hey guys. I'm about to start my first Rogue Trader game, and since my only experience is DnD and this is drastically different, I was hoping for some advice on character building? My first character is going to be an Arch - Militant, which I understand is specialized in weaponry. Any type of weapons I should choose to focus on or any specific build?