Sorcadin leveling question, 5/5 or 6/4?

[samcifer]

So looking over the paladin mc variations, I've settled on vengeance pal / ds sorc. I figure he'd start at a minimum of lv. 10 and for creating him, I'm stuck on which way to go after lv. 9 with v pal 5 / ds sorc 4. The lv. 3 spells for sorcs are REALLY good, but lots of people swear by the pal 6 feature to increase saving throw values. Either way I'd have the same number of spell slots: 4, 3, 3, 1.

For reference, here's the character thus far (note that stats might change as these are not official numbers as of yet...

Fallen Assmir, Armor: Plate, Weapon: Halberd (hopefully I can start him with a masterwork for +2 or even +3 to hit - the DM allows us to purchase me weapons) ASI 1: Polearm Master, ASI 2: GWM

STR: 18 (17 + 1), DEX: 14 CON: 16, INT: 8, WIS: 10, CHA: 18 (16 + 2)

I want to play him as a gish, being able to melee or spellcast to offer me more flexibility on how I approach combat. Up until now I've always played ranged casters (except on my current moon druid character), gishes have a fair amount of appeal to me. As a note, my next ASI (assuming I wouldn't need to increase my STR), will be to take either Toughness to compensate for the lower HP from the sorc levels, or Alert to improve my initiative rolls. The main goal for this character is to do as much melle dmg. as possible whrn innmelee, but have some ranged and defensive spells to mix things up as well as compensate for times when I cannot reach any foes during a single turn to hit them, letting me hit them for at least some damage at range.

[strangebloke]

5/5 gets better spellcasting, but 6/4 is more resilient.

If you're in melee range, you'll be hit. If you get hit, you'll make CON saves. If you have a bad, or even a mediocre CON save you will lose concentration and be in a bad place. Haste, if backed up by a crappy CON save, is more of a liability than anything else, and that's arguably the best spell at that level.

I would personally skip PAM and pick up warcaster. You'll have plenty of use for your bonus action anyway and once again, you really don't want to lose concentration in the middle of a fight.

[Asmotherion]

Now, I never found a real reason to get paladin more than 2 Levels, if not for the 6th level Aura of Protection.

So, in my Honest oppinion, it's more a Question of 6/4 or 8/2 (With Sorcerer 8 Paladin 2). Since you're not a Cha-Based build, you can proffit better from Shadow Blade-Divine Smite-Booming Blade that way.

As for Extra Attack, you can get around it via Feats (PAM)/Quicken Spell (Booming Blade). It's less of a big deal than it appears to be on first sight really.

[samcifer]

*Nods to answers above* My concept was to be a smite-focused build for high damage (hence assmir over v. human or half-elf with elven accuracy feat), with spellcasting for defense via Shield and Mirror Image as well as ranged spell options like Guiding Bolt and Fireball. Shadow blade is good on some builds, but I like the +10 dmg. per hit from GWM and Shadow Blade is more dex/finesse focused. If I went for a Dex-focused paladin that would be great (and maybe compensate for GWM), but since I want reach, three attacks and the ability to try for +10 dmg. per hit, PM and GWM are needed. I won't be smiting on every attack, obviously, but having that as an option as well would make for very high damage when in melee.

I see the point on the CON save, though. I suppose I could go 6/4, then at lv. 11 take the 5th lvl. of sorc. I'm not really planning on using many concentration spells, however, so the need to make saves might not come up much.

Edit: To be clear, spell slots would be mainly for smites or defense unless we have a situation where a spell is required or we are fighting at range by necessity.

[Aaron Underhand]

6/4 every time. You want to make saves, not just con saves but Wis saves as well...

With those stats, a +2 weapon, 2nd attack, PAM and GWM you will be a monster in combat so expect to be the target of spells.

Next ASI could be resilient WIS, or MI warlock to get Eldritch blast for those times you need a ranged option.

[samcifer]

6/4 every time. You want to make saves, not just con saves but Wis saves as well...

With those stats, a +2 weapon, 2nd attack, PAM and GWM you will be a monster in combat so expect to be the target of spells.

Next ASI could be resilient WIS, or MI warlock to get Eldritch blast for those times you need a ranged option.

I was thinking of going a level of Hexblade at some point anyways for the Hexblade's Curse increases to crit range and extra dmg.

[Aimeryan]

I was thinking of going a level of Hexblade at some point anyways for the Hexblade's Curse increases to crit range and extra dmg.

If so, given Hex Warrior's Charisma Attacks, you wont need any more than 15 strength for full plate - the stats could be shifted around a bit (more Con, maybe).

I have played a 2 Pal, 3 Hexblade, X Sorcerer - it works really well for Smiting given the spell slots available and for converting short-rest Warlock slots for Sorcery Points.

You can use Booming Blade/Greenflame Blade for your basic attack - worth a little less than two Attacks between levels 5-10 (unless Draconic), worth more than two attacks after 11 (scales, ignoring Crit-Smiting potential, ignoring GWM - although I prefer Longsword and Shield anyway). You can also add in Quickened Booming Blade/Greenflame Blade for a Bonus Action, which is more efficient than Smiting with those slots equivalents (you can add Smite on top of this for more burst, however).

If you need to use ranged Attacks, you have Eldritch Blast (Agonising, if you like). With Hex and Hexblade's Curse.

Your spellcasting falls behind, however, you can still get some really useful spells up and going - Hex, Hold Person (automatic Crits for Smiting), Haste, Greater Invisibility, etc. You can Twin these, too.

ASI's makes sense to spend on Warcaster, Resilient (Con). Elven Accuracy if you are Half-Elf, of course (I know you are not).

~~~

You could go up to 6 Pal, but you would be pushing off spellcasting too much, I feel. Maybe just 1 Hexblade, sacrificing short-rest conversion potential for slightly less poor Sorcerer progression. Level 10 would have you at 6 Pal, 1 Hexblade, 3 Sorcerer, which is pretty much everything you would need to get really going martial-wise.

Would be better for PAM and GWM - the loss of short-rest slots for conversion wouldn't hit so hard if you mostly rely on Extra Attack Action and PAM Bonus Action. Three chances at Crit-Smiting, before Advantage, and three GWMs. Would probably not go Draconic Sorcerer for this - Shadow Sorcerer would probably work much better.

My personal issue with this is that it just feels far less magical - wouldn't feel too much different to Fighter with GWM and PAM. Well, pseudo-Devil Sight-Darkness, aside.

[Nifft]

Aura of Protection is pretty great. If you've already taken 5 levels of Paladin, taking one more is a solid defensive bonus.

As a gish, you'll be taking damage and tanking enemy effects -- and thus making saves, including Con saves to keep your Concentration spells going. Having +Cha to those rolls can be very, very good for a gish.

[Corran]

As for Extra Attack, you can get around it via Feats (PAM)/Quicken Spell (Booming Blade). It's less of a big deal than it appears to be on first sight really.

Extra attack is useful for when you want to go nova, as it allows you two chances to smite without having to spend sorcery points (you can always spend sorcery points for quickening a weapon cantrip, but meh...). PAM is a poor pick for sorcadins.

Edit:
@OP: Skip PAM, you want your bonus action available for when you crit (GWM) or more likely for when you want to quicken a spell (most likely a buff spell during the 1st round of combat, probably a blast spell mid combat -or spiritual weapon since you are going ds for sorc origin). The spells you will most likely want to rely upon with your concentration (since you are a GWM), are bless (quickened), haste (quickened or twinned depending on allies) and greater invisibility (quickened or twinned, again depending on allies). Twinned haste is the best option in a void, but (quickened bless) will probably be your best option when fighting dangerous enemies (greater invisibility is hard to rate, as it depends exclusively on your party; ie do you have a melee rogue, do you need to tank enemies, etc). The bonus from aura of protection is not enough IMO. You need resilient con. So I'd start human and I would aim for GWM, resilient con and +2 STR when I am paladin6/sorc4 (besides, necrotic shroud uses an action, and GWM builds don't make the most out of powers that take actions away from their GWM'ing).

[samcifer]

Extra attack is useful for when you want to go nova, as it allows you two chances to smite without having to spend sorcery points (you can always spend sorcery points for quickening a weapon cantrip, but meh...). PAM is a poor pick for sorcadins.

But it's not really that much of a loss of dmg over haste, right? only about a 3 pt loss on average and doesn't require concentration, which is a plus in that respect.

I thought one of the main selling points of a sorcadin was more slots to smite with.

I could do 1d10 + 5 (STR) + 10 (GWM) + smite (average of 8 on a lv. 1 slot) for 28 x 2, then 1d4 + 5 +10 + 8 for 25, giving me 81 dmg during a single turn and that's not counting higher spell slots used or bonuses from a magic weapon. Then I can do an additional 10 dmg. from my racial ability for 91 dmg or more. That's really good dmg. right?

[Nifft]

I thought one of the main selling points of a sorcadin was more slots to smite with.

Level 10 Paladin gets 4/3/2 slots; this character gets 4/3/3/1, plus whatever can be created from Sorcery Points.

Haste is a great spell, but it stacks with Extra Attack -- having haste doesn't make Extra Attack somehow worthless. Running Twin Haste on yourself and an ally at level 11 with Aura of Protection so you get to keep it up all combat is pretty great.

[Corran]

But it's not really that much of a loss of dmg over haste, right?

You mean PAM?
PAM requires a feat (feats come at a slower pace for a sorcadin and he needs other feats and stat bums a lot more than PAM), and uses your bonus actions (which a sorcadin can use in other waysP, and works only when you take the attack action (which as a sorcadin you only when to do when fighting a boss, so that you smite it more, so that you kill it quickly).
Edit: Also, sorcadins typically don't get IDS (and if they do it's postponed for several levels), and they dont have any significant way of exploiting a polearm's reach, so I dont see much value in a reach weapon. (There are benefits to the extra AC offered by a shield, but since you are going for a GWM build I wont expand on that).

I thought one of the main selling points of a sorcadin was more slots to smite with.

I think this is the least of the benefits that a sorcadin (any sorcadin) gets. A paladin has enough slots to do this, assuming they choose to do it when it is an optimal thing to do (cause generally speaking, spending slots to smite is suboptimal). A sorcadin is good, always IMO, cause it adds a boost on top of an already good tanking basis, because it allows you some versatility in your tactics (best used IMO if you focus on a few control options; a couple of AoE options at cl 11 are not bad either) and mainly because it optimizes the action economy (especially during the 1st round of combat, eg quickened bless and attack action when fighting bosses) of the various tactics you have in store (also because quickening allows to use tactics you otherwise wouldn't due to speeding things up; eg dreadful aspect + quickened web at round 1, ie something it might not be profitable to do if you needed two whole rounds).

Now, the real draw of a vengeance GWM sorcadin (which is something I am not really a fun of, GWM sorcadins that is), is that it can twin haste and that it can quicken bless. When using VoE (+haste), a singleclass paladin always deals less MORE damage than a respective vengeance sorcadin. The sorcadin makes up for it because he can twin haste (assuming it is safe enough to do so, so take care here; even with both aura of protection and resilient con, you might still prefer to use bless instead, when up against enemies with a strong attack, such as a dragon's breath). Quickned bless also allows the vengeance sorcadin to deal better damage than a singleclass vengeance when they are not using VoE, since it obviously improves action economy during round 1, thus allowing you to attack.

[samcifer]

You mean PAM?
PAM requires a feat (feats come at a slower pace for a sorcadin and he needs other feats and stat bums a lot more than PAM), and uses your bonus actions (which a sorcadin can use in other waysP, and works only when you take the attack action (which as a sorcadin you only when to do when fighting a boss, so that you smite it more, so that you kill it quickly).
Edit: Also, sorcadins typically don't get IDS (and if they do it's postponed for several levels), and they dont have any significant way of exploiting a polearm's reach, so I dont see much value in a reach weapon. (There are benefits to the extra AC offered by a shield, but since you are going for a GWM build I wont expand on that).


I think this is the least of the benefits that a sorcadin (any sorcadin) gets. A paladin has enough slots to do this, assuming they choose to do it when it is an optimal thing to do (cause generally speaking, spending slots to smite is suboptimal). A sorcadin is good, always IMO, cause it adds a boost on top of an already good tanking basis, because it allows you some versatility in your tactics (best used IMO if you focus on a few control options; a couple of AoE options at cl 11 are not bad either) and mainly because it optimizes the action economy (especially during the 1st round of combat, eg quickened bless and attack action when fighting bosses) of the various tactics you have in store (also because quickening allows to use tactics you otherwise wouldn't due to speeding things up; eg dreadful aspect + quickened web at round 1, ie something it might not be profitable to do if you needed two whole rounds).

Now, the real draw of a vengeance GWM sorcadin (which is something I am not really a fun of, GWM sorcadins that is), is that it can twin haste and that it can quicken bless. When using VoE (+haste), a singleclass paladin always deals less MORE damage than a respective vengeance sorcadin. The sorcadin makes up for it because he can twin haste (assuming it is safe enough to do so, so take care here; even with both aura of protection and resilient con, you might still prefer to use bless instead, when up against enemies with a strong attack, such as a dragon's breath). Quickned bless also allows the vengeance sorcadin to deal better damage than a singleclass vengeance when they are not using VoE, since it obviously improves action economy during round 1, thus allowing you to attack.

Okay, those are things I didn't think of as I've never used Bless before since the benefits never seemed worth the effort for what felt like so small a payout, imo. Quickened was one of the metamagics I am thinking of taking, but subtle sounds rather useful, so that was my choice for the second one as Twin only works on a few spells.

[Nifft]

Okay, those are things I didn't think of as I've never used Bless before since the benefits never seemed worth the effort for what felt like so small a payout, imo. Quickened was one of the metamagics I am thinking of taking, but subtle sounds rather useful, so that was my choice for the second one as Twin only works on a few spells.

Subtle can be amazing if you expect to spend any time in civilization.

I'd suggest only one of Twin or Quicken. If you're going to buff (e.g. haste) then Twin can be amazing. If you don't focus on Twin-compatible buffs, then getting an extra cantrip attack for 1 sorc point via Quicken is very, very good.

[samcifer]

Subtle can be amazing if you expect to spend any time in civilization.

I'd suggest only one of Twin or Quicken. If you're going to buff (e.g. haste) then Twin can be amazing. If you don't focus on Twin-compatible buffs, then getting an extra cantrip attack for 1 sorc point via Quicken is very, very good.

Another thing quicken can do is add extra damage, say from Burning Hands or Spirit Guardians, or aid me in non-damaging ways such as using Hold Person or Mirror Image.

[samcifer]

One question comes to mind from the weapon cantrips. Since you have to make a weapon attack, could I use GWF on the attack I use as a part of Booming Blade or Green Flame Blade castings?

[Corran]

One question comes to mind from the weapon cantrips. Since you have to make a weapon attack, could I use GWF on the attack I use as a part of Booming Blade or Green Flame Blade castings?

You can use both GWF (the fighting style; wether or not it applies to damage die other than your weapon's is subject to DM's discretion, as the phb allows for that but sage advice does not) and GWM (btw, somewhere above I mentioned that you want to use the weapon cantrips more; that's because I had a S&B sorcadin in mind. Being a GWM means that it is far better for you to take the attack action, at least when you want to make use of the -5/+10 aspect of this feat; but having the feat means that you want to find ways -bless, haste, VoE, gr invisibility- of making it useful since feats are a valuable resource).

I would warn you away from using weapon cantrips if you have GWM. GWM is a gamble, you take a bigger risk not to hit, but if you hit you deal a lot more damage. To make this gamble worth persuing, you have to ensure that you risk little and that you gain a lot (also since using the feat translates to a good dpr boost, finding ways to boost your accuracy or to gain extra attacks is very beneficial -that's why we want to use powers like bless, VoE, haste, etc). Extra attack works towards that direction while weapon cantrips do not.

For example, if you are using extra attack, you risk missing on an attack that deals 2d6+str damage, to inflict an additional 10 points of damage if you hit (and you can do this twice; so assuming it is worth using the -5/+10 aspect of the GWM feat -and you have ways of trying to make this the case- then you also double that profit.

But if using gfb or bb, you risk losing (a lot) more damage (especially if the secondary effect of gfb/bb would apply), for the same gain (and as opposed to using the attack action, you don't profit from doing it twice per round; assuming it was profitable in the first place). In short, weapon cantrips don't play well with GWM (same holds true for everything that adds damage die on top of an attack, eg IDS), but extra attack does.

[samcifer]

You can use both GWF (the fighting style; wether or not it applies to damage die other than your weapon's is subject to DM's discretion, as the phb allows for that but sage advice does not) and GWM (btw, somewhere above I mentioned that you want to use the weapon cantrips more; that's because I had a S&B sorcadin in mind. Being a GWM means that it is far better for you to take the attack action, at least when you want to make use of the -5/+10 aspect of this feat; but having the feat means that you want to find ways -bless, haste, VoE, gr invisibility- of making it useful since feats are a valuable resource).

I would warn you away from using weapon cantrips if you have GWM. GWM is a gamble, you take a bigger risk not to hit, but if you hit you deal a lot more damage. To make this gamble worth persuing, you have to ensure that you risk little and that you gain a lot (also since using the feat translates to a good dpr boost, finding ways to boost your accuracy or to gain extra attacks is very beneficial -that's why we want to use powers like bless, VoE, haste, etc). Extra attack works towards that direction while weapon cantrips do not.

For example, if you are using extra attack, you risk missing on an attack that deals 2d6+str damage, to inflict an additional 10 points of damage if you hit (and you can do this twice; so assuming it is worth using the -5/+10 aspect of the GWM feat -and you have ways of trying to make this the case- then you also double that profit.

But if using gfb or bb, you risk losing (a lot) more damage (especially if the secondary effect of gfb/bb would apply), for the same gain (and as opposed to using the attack action, you don't profit from doing it twice per round; assuming it was profitable in the first place). In short, weapon cantrips don't play well with GWM (same holds true for everything that adds damage die on top of an attack, eg IDS), but extra attack does.

I'm using a halberd, which is 1d10, not 2d6.

[samcifer]

I'm reading through the Unlimited Blade Works guide for more insight on the build.

Reference (for me to find it more easily):

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...rer-Multiclass

[Aimeryan]

As Corran mentioned, the weapon cantrips don't work that well with GWM+PAM because you want the Extra Attack on your Action and the PAM Attack on you Bonus Action.

The build I used was with a 1H+Shield, with Draconic boosting GFB cantrips. AoO weapon cantrips from Warcaster were also nice. That said, it wasn't really aiming for max melee damage, more a fun versatile gish.

The second build I mentioned sounds like it would work much better for you, although concentration may be an issue without Warcaster and Resilient (Con), although the aura would make up for one of those.

The Eyes of the Dark from Shadow Sorcerer would give you always on Advantage on Attacks - great for GWM and for Crit-Smiting. You could use your spellslots, along with Quicken, for when it makes more sense to cast a spell instead (AoE, non-concentration spells, encounter-specific concentration spells).

If not Shadow Sorcerer, then Twin Haste makes a lot of sense for your concentration. Maybe Divine Soul Sorcerer for Favoured by the Gods and access to the Cleric list?

[samcifer]

As Corran mentioned, the weapon cantrips don't work that well with GWM+PAM because you want the Extra Attack on your Action and the PAM Attack on you Bonus Action.

The build I used was with a 1H+Shield, with Draconic boosting GFB cantrips. AoO weapon cantrips from Warcaster were also nice. That said, it wasn't really aiming for max melee damage, more a fun versatile gish.

The second build I mentioned sounds like it would work much better for you, although concentration may be an issue without Warcaster and Resilient (Con), although the aura would make up for one of those.

The Eyes of the Dark from Shadow Sorcerer would give you always on Advantage on Attacks - great for GWM and for Crit-Smiting. You could use your spellslots, along with Quicken, for when it makes more sense to cast a spell instead (AoE, non-concentration spells, encounter-specific concentration spells).

If not Shadow Sorcerer, then Twin Haste makes a lot of sense for your concentration. Maybe Divine Soul Sorcerer for Favoured by the Gods and access to the Cleric list?

Admittedly yes, those are the reasons I chose that subclass.

[Asmotherion]

I was thinking of going a level of Hexblade at some point anyways for the Hexblade's Curse increases to crit range and extra dmg.

I was trying not to suggest Hexblade in order not to sound too stereotypical, but truth is, it is just that good. Just go SAD CHA and never look back.

I'd go 2 levels for Agonising EB, but that's just me. Don't let that affect you in any way. I'm an Eldritch Blast Addict. :P

[samcifer]

I was trying not to suggest Hexblade in order not to sound too stereotypical, but truth is, it is just that good. Just go SAD CHA and never look back.

I'd go 2 levels for Agonising EB, but that's just me. Don't let that affect you in any way. I'm an Eldritch Blast Addict. :P

Another idea I had was to start pal 6 / hexblade 4, focusing on CHA for all attacks, then start off on sorc levels at lv 11. I'd have eb and maybe minor illusion with pact of the blade and 8 spell slots, 4 of lv 1 and 4 of lv 2. For ees, I'd take Improved Pact Weapon for the +1 as well as being able to use it as an implement and to help counter to lower accuracy from GWM, but would be torn between AG and Devil's sight. Would the hexblade over sorc be a better route to go?

[Aimeryan]

Another idea I had was to start pal 6 / hexblade 4, focusing on CHA for all attacks, then start off on sorc levels at lv 11.

For GWM+PAM that would work pretty fine since you aren't desperate for the metamagic Quicken for supplementing your damage with a Bonus Action Smite when you need it.

An interesting thing to look at here is whether you want to go either:
Pal 6 / Hexblade 4 / Sorcerer 10 - extra 7th level spell slot + Metamagic
Pal 7 / Hexblade 4 / Sorcerer 9 - Paladin subclass level 7

Both only go up to 5th level spells known for the Sorcerer.

Ancients Paladin could be really good here if you went to 7. If so, whether you went Pal 7 before any Sorcerer levels or Sorcerer 4 before the last Paladin level would be up to you - at this point your Sorcerer progress is so far behind that delaying by another level is not going to mean much (you're pretty much looking at Sorcerer at this point for getting Metamagic to supplement your build). That said, Vow of Enmity is also really good.

For ees, I'd take Improved Pact Weapon for the +1 as well as being able to use it as an implement and to help counter to lower accuracy from GWM, but would be torn between AG and Devil's sight.

Improved Pact Weapon might not be too useful to you here; you aren't using a ranged weapon with it, the +1 does not work if it is already a magic weapon, and one hand is considered free when only holding a 2H weapon (it only requires 2H to use, not to hold) so using the weapon as a Warlock focus is not useful here (plus, Sorcerer focus requirement, anyhow).

[samcifer]

For GWM+PAM that would work pretty fine since you aren't desperate for the metamagic Quicken for supplementing your damage with a Bonus Action Smite when you need it.

An interesting thing to look at here is whether you want to go either:
Pal 6 / Hexblade 4 / Sorcerer 10 - extra 7th level spell slot + Metamagic
Pal 7 / Hexblade 4 / Sorcerer 9 - Paladin subclass level 7

Both only go up to 5th level spells known for the Sorcerer.

Ancients Paladin could be really good here if you went to 7. If so, whether you went Pal 7 before any Sorcerer levels or Sorcerer 4 before the last Paladin level would be up to you - at this point your Sorcerer progress is so far behind that delaying by another level is not going to mean much (you're pretty much looking at Sorcerer at this point for getting Metamagic to supplement your build). That said, Vow of Enmity is also really good.

Improved Pact Weapon might not be too useful to you here; you aren't using a ranged weapon with it, the +1 does not work if it is already a magic weapon, and one hand is considered free when only holding a 2H weapon (it only requires 2H to use, not to hold) so using the weapon as a Warlock focus is not useful here (plus, Sorcerer focus requirement, anyhow).

Yeah. I like the idea of being able to be in melee or attack with powerful spells from range, tbh. I like the 'swiss-army-knife' hind of character to give me plenty of variety in combat styles and keep things from getting stale. I've wanted to play such a character before, but always ended up going full caster.

In 4e I tried playing a rogue, but didn't understand how to work the character correctly, so the dm let me switch to a tiefling wizard that I enjoyed much more. The group took a hiatus for awhile, then began a new campaign. Since I understood how to play a rogue in combat better, I made a satyr rogue, but we only got to play three sessions before another and sadly permanent hiatus.

I started playing 5e about a year ago with the group I'm surrently in. I played a tiefling sorcer who multiclassed into hexblade, but he was low in levels (6 levels total as a divine soul 4 / hexblade 2), but he was so squishly I was too timid to try melee. After he was killed (cut down by a machine gun turret in a homebrewed campaign, I replaced him with a human light cleric / moon druid who wanted to become a satyr, but we only played 4 more sessions, though I liked the character. Again I stuck to ranged because the build wasn't good at melee.
We ended the campaign and I tried a tiefling evocation wizard which I really liked, but the dm burned out after a few sessions, so we're now on an evil campaign where I'm playing a firbolg moon druid.

I want to break out of my rut and the moon druid has helped with that, but I want a character who can survive in melee as well as being able to cast spells at range. Sorcadin seems like the best build for this. Lots of melee damage up close while being able to throw out fireballs, lightning bolts and make use of utility spells. I feel that the expanded spell list for divine soul sorcs combined with a paladin would be best for this. I'd most likely only take Paladin to lv. 6 and the rest as sorc.

[Citan]

So looking over the paladin mc variations, I've settled on vengeance pal / ds sorc. I figure he'd start at a minimum of lv. 10 and for creating him, I'm stuck on which way to go after lv. 9 with v pal 5 / ds sorc 4. The lv. 3 spells for sorcs are REALLY good, but lots of people swear by the pal 6 feature to increase saving throw values. Either way I'd have the same number of spell slots: 4, 3, 3, 1.

For reference, here's the character thus far (note that stats might change as these are not official numbers as of yet...

Fallen Assmir, Armor: Plate, Weapon: Halberd (hopefully I can start him with a masterwork for +2 or even +3 to hit - the DM allows us to purchase me weapons) ASI 1: Polearm Master, ASI 2: GWM

STR: 18 (17 + 1), DEX: 14 CON: 16, INT: 8, WIS: 10, CHA: 18 (16 + 2)

I want to play him as a gish, being able to melee or spellcast to offer me more flexibility on how I approach combat. Up until now I've always played ranged casters (except on my current moon druid character), gishes have a fair amount of appeal to me. As a note, my next ASI (assuming I wouldn't need to increase my STR), will be to take either Toughness to compensate for the lower HP from the sorc levels, or Alert to improve my initiative rolls. The main goal for this character is to do as much melle dmg. as possible whrn innmelee, but have some ranged and defensive spells to mix things up as well as compensate for times when I cannot reach any foes during a single turn to hit them, letting me hit them for at least some damage at range.

Honestly? Pick whatever you want.
Both are great.

Advantage 6/4: much more resilient overall, even number of Sorcery points.
Advantage 5/5: you get two (with spell swap) among Haste, Counterspell, Fear, Hypnotic Pattern, Spirit Guardian, Fly...
Pick Quicken and either Extend or Subtle depending on your outfight focus and spell selection.

Quicken Haste or Spirit Guardian at start of fight can be dreadful for enemies. I'd just be a be wary of using Haste until I get my 11th level as a Paladin.
As you may have guessed, I have a slight preference myself for the second "in void" because I tend to rather play mobile gishes, but really both are equally good, pick depending on your taste and expected party composition/roles (if you have to be the lone frontliner for example, no question, 6/4).

[Snowbluff]

I'm going for 6/4 as well.
Better saves.
Same number of slots.

Unless you're planning on taking spirit guardians immediately on sorcerer, it's a much better option.

[samcifer]

I'm going for 6/4 as well.
Better saves.
Same number of slots.

Unless you're planning on taking spirit guardians immediately on sorcerer, it's a much better option.

If I did that, I'd go for sorc 5 at lv. 11 for the lv, 3 spells.

[Arkhios]

5/5 gets spell slots as if they were a 7-½th level full caster. Since that's not a thing, it rounds down to 7th level.

Cons: You have to wait a good while if you want Cha to all Saving Throws.
Pros: You get 3rd level spells known from Sorcerer.

6/4 gets spell slots as if they were exactly 7th level full caster. No meaningless halves anywhere.

Cons: You have to wait a good while if you want 3rd level spells known from Sorcerer.
Pros: You get Cha to all Saving Throws.

Personally, I'd go with 6/4 and then continue with sorcerer, but it boils down to what you want, and consider more worth the wait.

[samcifer]

5/5 gets spell slots as if they were a 7-½th level full caster. Since that's not a thing, it rounds down to 7th level.

Cons: You have to wait a good while if you want Cha to all Saving Throws.
Pros: You get 3rd level spells known from Sorcerer.

6/4 gets spell slots as if they were exactly 7th level full caster. No meaningless halves anywhere.

Cons: You have to wait a good while if you want 3rd level spells known from Sorcerer.
Pros: You get Cha to all Saving Throws.

Personally, I'd go with 6/4 and then continue with sorcerer, but it boils down to what you want, and consider more worth the wait.

Well, I'd prefer to go 5/5 so I don't have to wait another level for them. I can compensate for a level by avoiding using concentration spells. I could have 19AC which wouldn't be bad for avoiding concentration challenges, however.

Edit: Also, there is a full paladin in the party, so we could always gang up on foes and I'd still get the benefit of a lv. 6 pally.